There is no doubt that the profession of architecture is in crisis. Of course, it is what it is - the public will always need architects, will always hire them, and (eventually - and maybe, handsomely) pay them - on time!
Yet the fact remains that the profession, including academia, is at an all-time low; it has so many problems, so many points of contention, that it is difficult to define or diagnose the causes of the problems, and even more difficult to propose solutions. The profession of architecture, in America specifically, and including NCARB and the AIA for the purposes of this commentary, appears to be one large 'bureaucratic' amorphous ooze, floating along en masse until it runs into immoveable obstacles, which cause it to change shape or lose part of it's substance...........
A few years ago, I went to an event - where a 'dynamic' speaker gave the keynote address about how the AIA was changing for the better.....this speaker repeatedly said to the young crowd, "we've heard you, and we're making changes"......the more I heard this gentleman speak, it suddenly dawned on me that practically everything he said was essentially the same as what I heard more than 30 years ago from others in the profession - same proposals, same song, same dance. What was so interesting, though, was that this speaker was working in a firm - as a solicitor!..........Sheesh!
Can real change happen in the AIA and NCARB? For the better? For non-registrants, too!
As vague as the speaker's comments were regarding change, your comments on the problem are no better. What is it we're fixing?
Jun 27, 18 3:47 pm ·
·
Shaw
Restoring respect as industry professionals and leaders in the design and building arts; undoing whatever was done in the past (the antitrust lawsuit?) that began the decline for architects and affected their ability to earn a decent salary. For non-registrants, being able to enjoy the title 'architect' without penalty, simplifying the regulatory aspects of NCARB, including examinations, and reforming the AIA in a number of areas.
Jun 27, 18 4:00 pm ·
·
Fivescore
You want to undo the antitrust lawsuit? First off, which one? Are you saying you want to go back to having AIA chapters prohibiting local price competition (1990s lawsuit)? And/or you want to go back to not allowing architects to submit price quotes in bids for public projects (1970s lawsuit)? Should we go back to not allowing architects to advertise, while we're at it?
Jun 27, 18 4:12 pm ·
·
Shaw
You are enlightening me on the issue(s); others have declared that the anti-trust suit is the reason we're the caboose now and not the locomotive - please say on!!! This is extremely helpful, and thank you!
Read the whole thing, and then think about whether returning to 1971 or 1984 is really what you want.
Jun 27, 18 4:40 pm ·
·
Shaw
I am so appreciative - thanks. I've only heard one view, so I will read this with great interest.
Jun 27, 18 4:50 pm ·
·
Shaw
This is most enlightening, RickB-Astoria. How does, how wo
uld the profession recover?
Jun 27, 18 5:11 pm ·
·
Shaw
Threesleeve, I did read it. I see your points. What would you propose to resolve the dilemma - or is it too far gone?
Jun 27, 18 5:13 pm ·
·
Shaw
RickB-Astoria, it means a lot that you've taken the time to share as you have - it is so very helpful. That was one of the reasons I wanted to join Archinect, so that I could share my views and concerns, and hear from others and learn. You really know your business. I agree also - it's no good going to the bottom of the barrel. The pressure to lower our prices is always there - even - and especially - clients can try to 'do guilt' about our fees. What makes me mad is when clients complain about my fees, and then pay a decorator big bucks to do their home....and then I see photos of the client from Venice...Paris....NYC......or they show up at a car show with their 'toy fire engine' (probably a $30,000 value).
Shaw, i wonder if you are confusing two images of the architect that are out there in the world. There is the Architect who is skilled experienced and has managed to earn the confidence of their clients. These clients who spend huge sums of money on a building or risk their careers or their business on projects big and small. Or are you seeing the image of the architect as artist designer who is working to create their vision of how a building should be built and that the architect has to sell their vision to people who do not know better or do not care. Which version of the architect is suffering right now? Which version of the profession is in crisis?
This commentary is very vague. Give us more context please.
Jun 27, 18 4:01 pm ·
·
Shaw
The AIA and NCARB, on approach, seem very vague, and the issues are so multifaceted. Mostly, it's about clarity, opportunity, and making a decent living without being penalized/killed by the very ones who birthed you into the profession. The old saying is that 'Architecture is the only profession which eats it's young'.
Jun 27, 18 4:40 pm ·
·
Shaw
RickB-Astoria - glad you pointed that out! Come to think of it - the legal profession? as an example? When I first heard the statement, it was said after the manner of architecture being 'particularly bad' for certain. I have always felt like the real horror stories were from our quadrant, by comparison. Like the galley slaves in Ben Hur - 'row well and live'....but many died rowing....
"The profession that eats it's young "is in regard to first year public school teachers, the saying may apply to other professions but that is where it originated.
It would take political action by citizens in many individual states to remove their state boards from NCARB's influence and in most cases, NCARB's de-facto control. If enough state boards withdrew from NCARB and instituted simpler, less expensive ways of executing licensure, reciprocity, and examination functions, NCARB would be forced to reform or perhaps collapse. At the very least, architects in the withdrawn states would no longer be paying exorbitant NCARB fees.
The AIA is too expensive nowadays for those who have to spend their own money to participate. A big chunk of the less-wealthy people in my chapter have dropped out in past few years. As long as there are big firms who don't mind paying big bucks to fund the club, I don't think the AIA sees anything wrong with the current state of affairs. An interesting scenario is what happens if something like AI or mass off-shoring of architectural jobs devastates architectural employment in the USA.
Jun 27, 18 4:41 pm ·
·
Shaw
I agree. I understand that there are more architects who are not AIA members in the United States, and the first time I heard this statement was back in the 1990's. The very same thing has happened in my area - people have dropped out of the organization. The whole thing is a mess.....too expensive - and more......
Jun 27, 18 4:48 pm ·
·
Fivescore
Texas did a study about 20 years ago about whether they could pull out of NCARB. The big stopping block didn't turn out to be the expenses or logistics of running their own exam, or of keeping their own records - it was that no other state that responded to their survey said they'd accept passing a Texas-specific exam for reciprocity purposes. This meant that Texas' candidates would either get stuck being able to practice in Texas only, or they'd have to go through both the Texas process and then the NCARB process anyway.
If you want to get the states to drop out of NCARB you have to find a way to get all of the states to agree to that idea at the same time, and a way for reciprocity to still work - which basically means you need to create a new, alternate NCARB that pretty much does the same thing. Now, I don't think it's impossible to create an alternate, better NCARB - in fact I think virtually anyone could do that with an Excel spreadsheet or even just a clipboard and a phone - but setting that up and convincing a majority of states that the new NCARB-alternative can do the same thing better, faster, and cheaper, and that they should all switch over to it, and then getting them to do that more quickly than a slug's pace transition of a few decades or so, will be challenging, at best.
Jun 27, 18 4:53 pm ·
·
thisisnotmyname
Yes! Exactly. I too believe the NCARB replacement could a very small and simple organization. Was the Texas effort instigated by the board or the legislature? I know that in my state, the board is filled with NCARB officers and toadies and they would never consider dropping out unless the governor or legislature forced them to.
Jun 27, 18 5:29 pm ·
·
Shaw
Threesleeve, you're the best! Makes perfect sense to me....how the
whole thing works.....
Jun 27, 18 5:31 pm ·
·
Shaw
thisisnotmyname, my state = the same. Toadies (Lol!
)
Jun 27, 18 5:44 pm ·
·
thisisnotmyname
Fun fact: The Council for Interior Design Qualification (CIDQ) does everything for professional interior designers that NCARB does for us architects at the following prices: Apply for License Exam: $225.00, License Exam: $1100.00, yearly certificate renewal: $75.00, Lapsed certificate penalty: $75.00. CIDQ has nothing like the $400 fee NCARB charges to send your stuff to a state board for reciprocity. CIDQ handles your reciprocity w/ state boards online for free.
Jun 27, 18 6:09 pm ·
·
Fivescore
The Texas study was conducted by a consultant firm, hired by the state board, per direction of the Governor.
The AIA on a national level IS changing. But it is a Titanic and it changes slowly, so slowly.
But this is important: The main push for change - meaning more inclusion, acceptance of non-traditional practice, less paranoia around the anti-trust legislation of the 70s - that I am seeing is coming from young members! It's the old people like me who are slowly dying off and giving up clinging to the same old ways we used to do things. AIA is a volunteer organization which means there is only one way this can happen - it needs to change from within, by active, engaged members. More active and vocal young people - people who are still looking forward towards 40+ years in this profession - need to step up.
For starters: Robert Ivy has to go. It's so past time for him and his high-six-figure salary to be put to pasture.
Donna, the problem is that despite being an organization about leadership (and little more- an important part to remember) the AIA is not providing solutions. I'm not here suggesting that they provide and implement everything (I save that rant for other platforms), but they should be in the business of saying "have you thought about x" or we've identified these opportunities to make these things happen- check them out, and serving as a clearing house for all the ideas and attempts nationally. They also need to reach out to allied professions to address the matter of inclusiveness and the built environment instead of siloing.
But dammit, they need to stop bringing up the Whitney Young Speech as if it were gospel - and then showing how much they really go to church.50 years have passed and there have been any number of people who have tried to raise the bar, and the AIA does them no service or recognition when they go back to a the Civil Rights Era as if nothing else happened. It merely shows how out of touch the organization is, knee jerking to a time "they recall," instead of paying attention (cue snarky reference to "I look Up" campaign).
Do we believe the current state of the architecture profession is bad, or the worst it has been? I think compared to 2009 things are much better and headed, slowly, in the right direction.
First I don't think NCARB is as culpable for the current state of the profession as other organiztions. They are the gate keepers to licensure and they do this fairly well as we don't have a lot of truly incompetent people passing the exams. Perhaps we should focus our attention on NAAB and the ridiculous lapse in curriculum they allow accredited schools to have.
The AIA is many things and for some you do get a lot of support in reporting and logging CEU credits, finding work if you are laid off, getting through your internship, and recognizing the professionals who are working to make architecture better and or are doing great work. The fact is many people complain about the AIA when they barely scratch the surface of what the national organization does as well as the local chapters.
It seems that this critique comes up when people find a roadblock in their career and look for someone to blame instead of looking for a path and help in getting around it. Rules, licensure and regulations exist for a reason. The government, the AIA and NCARB don't meet in the basement of some secret building to write rules to stop people from advancing they do it to keep people safe, keep them from being ripped off or cheated. If we loosen the rules and regulations, give away professional registrations instead of having rigorous exams education and internships people have to go through to earn it we will only devalue the profession in the eyes of the public and further degrade our ability to earn a decent living working as a professional licensed architect.
Over and OUT
Peter N
Jun 28, 18 10:35 am ·
·
Shaw
Thanks Peter. I might do another thread to describe some experiences I had concerning the inconsistencies that are troublesome. I quite agree with you, it just seems like 'some of the bugs need to be worked out'
in the system.
Jun 28, 18 11:59 am ·
·
mightyaa
I think it has continually gotten worse since I started in this business back in '92. A lot of it though I blame on the internet and how that has changed clients from somewhat sophisticated or having to learn and willing to listen, to internet educated, graphically seduced, morons who trust internet logic and pretty pictures more than the experts in the field who do this for a living. The AIA btw, tends to also sell those pretty pictures as 'the best' rather than actual substance like a building that doesn't have problems, works, was fiscally acceptable, AND good design.
Jun 28, 18 7:11 pm ·
·
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.
Real Change in the AIA and NCARB - Can It Happen?
There is no doubt that the profession of architecture is in crisis. Of course, it is what it is - the public will always need architects, will always hire them, and (eventually - and maybe, handsomely) pay them - on time!
Yet the fact remains that the profession, including academia, is at an all-time low; it has so many problems, so many points of contention, that it is difficult to define or diagnose the causes of the problems, and even more difficult to propose solutions. The profession of architecture, in America specifically, and including NCARB and the AIA for the purposes of this commentary, appears to be one large 'bureaucratic' amorphous ooze, floating along en masse until it runs into immoveable obstacles, which cause it to change shape or lose part of it's substance...........
A few years ago, I went to an event - where a 'dynamic' speaker gave the keynote address about how the AIA was changing for the better.....this speaker repeatedly said to the young crowd, "we've heard you, and we're making changes"......the more I heard this gentleman speak, it suddenly dawned on me that practically everything he said was essentially the same as what I heard more than 30 years ago from others in the profession - same proposals, same song, same dance. What was so interesting, though, was that this speaker was working in a firm - as a solicitor!..........Sheesh!
Can real change happen in the AIA and NCARB? For the better? For non-registrants, too!
Anyone, please - welcome your thoughts!
As vague as the speaker's comments were regarding change, your comments on the problem are no better. What is it we're fixing?
Restoring respect as industry professionals and leaders in the design and building arts; undoing whatever was done in the past (the antitrust lawsuit?) that began the decline for architects and affected their ability to earn a decent salary. For non-registrants, being able to enjoy the title 'architect' without penalty, simplifying the regulatory aspects of NCARB, including examinations, and reforming the AIA in a number of areas.
You want to undo the antitrust lawsuit? First off, which one? Are you saying you want to go back to having AIA chapters prohibiting local price competition (1990s lawsuit)? And/or you want to go back to not allowing architects to submit price quotes in bids for public projects (1970s lawsuit)? Should we go back to not allowing architects to advertise, while we're at it?
You are enlightening me on the issue(s); others have declared that the anti-trust suit is the reason we're the caboose now and not the locomotive - please say on!!! This is extremely helpful, and thank you!
Here, read about it - it's easier than me writing about it: http://www.architectmagazine.com/practice/a-better-value_o
Read the whole thing, and then think about whether returning to 1971 or 1984 is really what you want.
I am so appreciative - thanks. I've only heard one view, so I will read this with great interest.
This is most enlightening, RickB-Astoria. How does, how wo uld the profession recover?
Threesleeve, I did read it. I see your points. What would you propose to resolve the dilemma - or is it too far gone?
RickB-Astoria, it means a lot that you've taken the time to share as you have - it is so very helpful. That was one of the reasons I wanted to join Archinect, so that I could share my views and concerns, and hear from others and learn. You really know your business. I agree also - it's no good going to the bottom of the barrel. The pressure to lower our prices is always there - even - and especially - clients can try to 'do guilt' about our fees. What makes me mad is when clients complain about my fees, and then pay a decorator big bucks to do their home....and then I see photos of the client from Venice...Paris....NYC......or they show up at a car show with their 'toy fire engine' (probably a $30,000 value).
Shaw, i wonder if you are confusing two images of the architect that are out there in the world. There is the Architect who is skilled experienced and has managed to earn the confidence of their clients. These clients who spend huge sums of money on a building or risk their careers or their business on projects big and small. Or are you seeing the image of the architect as artist designer who is working to create their vision of how a building should be built and that the architect has to sell their vision to people who do not know better or do not care. Which version of the architect is suffering right now? Which version of the profession is in crisis?
This commentary is very vague. Give us more context please.
The AIA and NCARB, on approach, seem very vague, and the issues are so multifaceted. Mostly, it's about clarity, opportunity, and making a decent living without being penalized/killed by the very ones who birthed you into the profession. The old saying is that 'Architecture is the only profession which eats it's young'.
RickB-Astoria - glad you pointed that out! Come to think of it - the legal profession? as an example? When I first heard the statement, it was said after the manner of architecture being 'particularly bad' for certain. I have always felt like the real horror stories were from our quadrant, by comparison. Like the galley slaves in Ben Hur - 'row well and live'....but many died rowing....
"The profession that eats it's young "is in regard to first year public school teachers, the saying may apply to other professions but that is where it originated.
It would take political action by citizens in many individual states to remove their state boards from NCARB's influence and in most cases, NCARB's de-facto control. If enough state boards withdrew from NCARB and instituted simpler, less expensive ways of executing licensure, reciprocity, and examination functions, NCARB would be forced to reform or perhaps collapse. At the very least, architects in the withdrawn states would no longer be paying exorbitant NCARB fees.
The AIA is too expensive nowadays for those who have to spend their own money to participate. A big chunk of the less-wealthy people in my chapter have dropped out in past few years. As long as there are big firms who don't mind paying big bucks to fund the club, I don't think the AIA sees anything wrong with the current state of affairs. An interesting scenario is what happens if something like AI or mass off-shoring of architectural jobs devastates architectural employment in the USA.
I agree. I understand that there are more architects who are not AIA members in the United States, and the first time I heard this statement was back in the 1990's. The very same thing has happened in my area - people have dropped out of the organization. The whole thing is a mess.....too expensive - and more......
Texas did a study about 20 years ago about whether they could pull out of NCARB. The big stopping block didn't turn out to be the expenses or logistics of running their own exam, or of keeping their own records - it was that no other state that responded to their survey said they'd accept passing a Texas-specific exam for reciprocity purposes. This meant that Texas' candidates would either get stuck being able to practice in Texas only, or they'd have to go through both the Texas process and then the NCARB process anyway.
If you want to get the states to drop out of NCARB you have to find a way to get all of the states to agree to that idea at the same time, and a way for reciprocity to still work - which basically means you need to create a new, alternate NCARB that pretty much does the same thing. Now, I don't think it's impossible to create an alternate, better NCARB - in fact I think virtually anyone could do that with an Excel spreadsheet or even just a clipboard and a phone - but setting that up and convincing a majority of states that the new NCARB-alternative can do the same thing better, faster, and cheaper, and that they should all switch over to it, and then getting them to do that more quickly than a slug's pace transition of a few decades or so, will be challenging, at best.
Yes! Exactly. I too believe the NCARB replacement could a very small and simple organization. Was the Texas effort instigated by the board or the legislature? I know that in my state, the board is filled with NCARB officers and toadies and they would never consider dropping out unless the governor or legislature forced them to.
Threesleeve, you're the best! Makes perfect sense to me....how the whole thing works.....
thisisnotmyname, my state = the same. Toadies (Lol! )
Fun fact: The Council for Interior Design Qualification (CIDQ) does everything for professional interior designers that NCARB does for us architects at the following prices: Apply for License Exam: $225.00, License Exam: $1100.00, yearly certificate renewal: $75.00, Lapsed certificate penalty: $75.00. CIDQ has nothing like the $400 fee NCARB charges to send your stuff to a state board for reciprocity. CIDQ handles your reciprocity w/ state boards online for free.
The Texas study was conducted by a consultant firm, hired by the state board, per direction of the Governor.
Canadian?
Yes indeed.
Honored to know you!
The AIA on a national level IS changing. But it is a Titanic and it changes slowly, so slowly.
But this is important: The main push for change - meaning more inclusion, acceptance of non-traditional practice, less paranoia around the anti-trust legislation of the 70s - that I am seeing is coming from young members! It's the old people like me who are slowly dying off and giving up clinging to the same old ways we used to do things. AIA is a volunteer organization which means there is only one way this can happen - it needs to change from within, by active, engaged members. More active and vocal young people - people who are still looking forward towards 40+ years in this profession - need to step up.
For starters: Robert Ivy has to go. It's so past time for him and his high-six-figure salary to be put to pasture.
Yes we should ditch Ivy.
https://www.aia.org/articles/201401-new-resolutions-recommit-aia-to-equity-and-
Slowly, slowly. It’s frustrating but encouraging.
Donna, the problem is that despite being an organization about leadership (and little more- an important part to remember) the AIA is not providing solutions. I'm not here suggesting that they provide and implement everything (I save that rant for other platforms), but they should be in the business of saying "have you thought about x" or we've identified these opportunities to make these things happen- check them out, and serving as a clearing house for all the ideas and attempts nationally. They also need to reach out to allied professions to address the matter of inclusiveness and the built environment instead of siloing.
But dammit, they need to stop bringing up the Whitney Young Speech as if it were gospel - and then showing how much they really go to church. 50 years have passed and there have been any number of people who have tried to raise the bar, and the AIA does them no service or recognition when they go back to a the Civil Rights Era as if nothing else happened. It merely shows how out of touch the organization is, knee jerking to a time "they recall," instead of paying attention (cue snarky reference to "I look Up" campaign).
Do we believe the current state of the architecture profession is bad, or the worst it has been? I think compared to 2009 things are much better and headed, slowly, in the right direction.
First I don't think NCARB is as culpable for the current state of the profession as other organiztions. They are the gate keepers to licensure and they do this fairly well as we don't have a lot of truly incompetent people passing the exams. Perhaps we should focus our attention on NAAB and the ridiculous lapse in curriculum they allow accredited schools to have.
The AIA is many things and for some you do get a lot of support in reporting and logging CEU credits, finding work if you are laid off, getting through your internship, and recognizing the professionals who are working to make architecture better and or are doing great work. The fact is many people complain about the AIA when they barely scratch the surface of what the national organization does as well as the local chapters.
It seems that this critique comes up when people find a roadblock in their career and look for someone to blame instead of looking for a path and help in getting around it. Rules, licensure and regulations exist for a reason. The government, the AIA and NCARB don't meet in the basement of some secret building to write rules to stop people from advancing they do it to keep people safe, keep them from being ripped off or cheated. If we loosen the rules and regulations, give away professional registrations instead of having rigorous exams education and internships people have to go through to earn it we will only devalue the profession in the eyes of the public and further degrade our ability to earn a decent living working as a professional licensed architect.
Over and OUT
Peter N
Thanks Peter. I might do another thread to describe some experiences I had concerning the inconsistencies that are troublesome. I quite agree with you, it just seems like 'some of the bugs need to be worked out' in the system.
I think it has continually gotten worse since I started in this business back in '92. A lot of it though I blame on the internet and how that has changed clients from somewhat sophisticated or having to learn and willing to listen, to internet educated, graphically seduced, morons who trust internet logic and pretty pictures more than the experts in the field who do this for a living. The AIA btw, tends to also sell those pretty pictures as 'the best' rather than actual substance like a building that doesn't have problems, works, was fiscally acceptable, AND good design.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.