Archinect
anchor

Sexual harrassment

237
BulgarBlogger

Has anyone experienced this in an architecture office setting? I guess its fashionable to to blame celebrities these days; wanted to hear about some real cases...just curious...

 
Nov 14, 17 10:35 pm
BulgarBlogger

Only if you are a “licensed residential designer”

Nov 14, 17 10:58 pm
BulgarBlogger

david- You strike me as someone who is very active online and I wouldnt be surprised if some cookie in your browser caught onto some funny internet activity... they have these algorithms these days that try to sell you stuff you are interested in...


To your question I say- Its only luck if there was no reason for this event to play out the way it did. Only you would know the real answer...


But back to my original post- Architecture is dominated by men, so it isnt an unreasonable question to ask women about their experiences with harassment.

Nov 14, 17 11:17 pm
RickB-Astoria

This topic about sexual harassment isn't just women as the victim and men as the perpetrator.

senjohnblutarsky

Sexism, sure.  Vulgarity, yep.

Haven't witnessed anything I would consider harassment, though. 

Nov 15, 17 8:05 am
randomised

As a guy myself I'm very picky of the nature of the offices I work at, therefore I guess I ended up working mostly for and with women and there never was this kind of locker room atmosphere or unprofessionalism that could lead to sexual harassment. Was working for a small all-guys office for a bit and there the atmosphere and kind of conversations were noticeably different, lots of testosterone...but nothing weird ever happened. So no.

Nov 15, 17 8:29 am
WhistleBlower

So glad that you've sought out professional environments, Randomised.

randomised

Me too!

sameolddoctor
Got a couple of "pervert Grandpa" types in the office where I'm at...
Nov 15, 17 10:46 am
sameolddoctor
Got a couple of "pervert Grandpa" types in the office where I'm at...
Nov 15, 17 10:46 am
molten

A former colleague at a previous firm was harassed by a coworker when she was a fresh grad. I was told the partners' solution was that they would never work on a project together again. This was many, many years ago...they're both principals at this firm now.

I'm sure there are some men who have experienced this but harassment in the workplace is an issue that disproportionately affects women.

Nov 15, 17 10:47 am
jla-x

men cannot get sexually harassed by women.  They can be bullied, but not sexually.  99% of the time we would either like it or think it's funny (even if she were unattractive).  I don't know a single man that would cry or be psychologically affected if a women masterbated in front of them like Louis CK.  That's the difference.  Now if a man harrased another man...that's a different matter.  Personally, I've never witnessed anything first hand in the design world.  I did know a girl who some douche tried to push up on when I was younger.  We did very bad things to his car. 



Nov 15, 17 11:31 am

Sorry jla-x, men can be sexually harassed by women. They can also be sexually harassed by other men. Sexual harassment doesn't have to be in the form of Louis C.K.

^ +++

Female Principal makes your future advancement in the firm contingent on sexual favors. You might not cry, or be psychologically damaged, but you would be affected professionally.

bowling_ball

WTF. I'm sure you're trolling, jla-x. At least I really really hope so.

archiwutm8

I know many men who were sexualised at a particular firm I worked at, the female manager was very vulgar and sexually harassed the younger employees under her management.

randomised
I don't know a single man that would cry or be psychologically affected if a women masterbated in front of them like Louis CK. I can think of quite some women I wouldn't want to masturbate in front of me and who'd leave me scarred for life.
jla-x

you guys don't see the difference between say a female teacher having sex with a male student vs the opposite? Even a big grilled woman Pulling a Louis CK in front of me would make me laugh, run away laughing at worst, and leave me with a really funny
story to tell my friends.

jla-x

You guys are too sensitive. Nothing personally offends me much. I know everyone is different, but personally if Rosie O'Donnell humped me to Jamaican dance club music I would likely run away and laugh. Zero psychological harm would be done. If it were a boss I would use it to blackmail them. FOH.

jla-x

But I understand it's different for women...which is why my wife carries a .38 revolver. And yes, she is a minority female from NYC...She calls it her gender equalizer.

Superfluous Squirrel

Its not about being offended. Its about someone who has power over you making you uncomfortable, and you would feel uncomfortable every time she asks you to do anything inappropriate or not. Would you get fired if you ran away? Would you quit if she made you watch every day? How would you explain why you left to the next firm that hired you? The whole problem is wayyyy bigger than that one moment. You would make major changes in your professional life and career because of this one interaction.

RickB-Astoria

I'll amend jla-x's comment. Replace the generic man/men/male with heterosexual man/men or heterosexual male(s). The heterosexual male culture is not offended but encourages the engagement of sexuality and sexual advancement with women of the opposite gender. Exceptions do exist..... maybe watching an overweight whale of a woman weighing a 1/4 ton or more masterbating might cause a man to cry or want to claw out their eyes. That might be traumatic as it would be if it was a male like that.

RickB-Astoria

Superluous Squirrel, Workplaces and working with new people you don't know is suppose to be uncomfortable. People NEED to grow a skin. Hypersensitivity that our culture is currently experiencing leads to no workable relationship to other people. There is a difference between uncomfortable and offended. Sure, just starting out at any place is to some extent uncomfortable. This is due to not having any relationship with the new people. However, if you are ultra hypersensitive to anything a person says with anything of sexual nature of even the slightest or otherwise to offense to someone even saying "You look nice, today", you're useless to the work place because you can't work with other people. You can't establish relationship. If you take offense to ANY man saying something even as slight as "You look nice" or some other very mild comments, come on. There might be an issue that you're what is called a "man hater" and you can't work in an office with people of the opposite gender. Sometimes, the jokes that may go around from time to time is to break the monotony of the dull ass work day that is lot of tedious work. Otherwise, we would be in a workplace that is quieter than even a brick & mortar library.

I've never seen nor heard of sexual harassment in any of the offices I've worked at. That doesn't mean it didn't/doesn't happen though. 

One small office I worked at had this old guy who started worrying about needing to clean up his language when he found out we had hired a woman who was going to be sitting next to him (rather than in another room) and might overhear and take offense to some stupid thing he might say. I knew the woman, having gone to school with her, and laughed about his consternation because she was probably about just as crass with her language as he was.

Nov 15, 17 11:40 am
tintt

In the office - once, almost. I stopped the approach mid-air.  

Job site - never. Usually get treated like a princess, everyone is very respectful.

Outside of work - more than a few times. 

Number of times I was told by someone either in or out of the industry that I could not be an architect solely because of my gender - maybe 4-5 times. 

Number of times at work I was called a name like bitch, sweetie, or honey - about 4-5 as well. 

Call the last two gender harassment, not sexual. Similar.

Nov 15, 17 11:49 am
WhistleBlower

Very interesting thread! Also, I've been reading about this subject. You should check out Cooper's "6 Levels of Sexual Harassment," which lays out very clearly how to categorize sexual harassment: https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/307220

won and done williams

While I'm sure sexual harrassment exists at some firms, I think the far greater problem in the profession is the more subtle stuff - men speaking over women, assigning women to trivial or "clerical" tasks (the woman is always picked by the man to be the note taker), not respecting women's opinions at the design table, not promoting women to leadership positions, etc. I see this everyday, and it drives me crazy. And it's usually the guy who claims to be the most "inclusive" that is the biggest a-hole.

Nov 15, 17 11:51 am
s=r*(theta)

"inclusive" many times = "we have a woman and a minority (double bonus = minority woman) who knows to stay quiet in our majority group

tintt

Women are good note takers because we can listen and write at the same time. I take it as a compliment to be a note taker. I have been asked when I was going to have babies and informed that 'is what women do, they run off and have babies' by a hiring principal. I thought that since I still got the job that it wasn't discrimination but my lawyer friends say otherwise.

won and done williams

Tinbeary, I don't disagree. Just saying most men will try to pawn off note taking because: a. they are lazy b. they think they are too important c. it leaves them free to pontificate about their great ideas without the encumbrance of having to do real work. Inclusive Man will attempt to brush off any note taking responsibilities by a. making a disingenuous self-deprecating comment about his note taking skills b. paying a disingenuous compliment towards the (most often) female note taker. See it everyday - very predictable.

tintt

The emperor wears no clothes.

tintt

Inclusive Man, ha! ...I'm suddenly inspired to write comics.

thisisnotmyname

Phony "inclusiveness" is something I've seen as well. I worked at an office where they always made sure they had 1 or 2 African Americans on staff, but they always got the worst work assignments and were always the first to be laid off. One time, the firm laid off 15% of the staff in one afternoon and the people were all black, female, or Jewish.

spiketwig

The note taking is a tricky one...if you write the notes you get to decide what goes in them! It's powerful...

WhistleBlower

Right--so true, won and done williams. That is so pervasive. I wonder what evolves from the subtle pervasive stuff to "sexual harassment" ....

JLC-1

my wife feels she's been discriminated all her life, nobody has ever sexually harassed her. me too.

Nov 15, 17 12:05 pm
JLC-1

we've never been "in".

WhistleBlower

Yeah, I know many who've experienced gender discrimination, but less have experienced outright sexual harassment...

mightyaa

Yep, guys can be harassed.. Not in the workplace for me, but yes I have been a few times by women who probably also believe "all guys want it regardless and like it”; it’s confusing emotionally for a guy.  

I'm talking being woken up from a drunken stupor in a rapey way by someone you’ve told you aren’t into them (and privately think are pretty gross), or my friend's psycho girlfriend thinking it was funny constantly messing with me knowing that I was a boy scout sort who wouldn't mess with a friend's girlfriend..  'safe' for her. Think walking around naked, masturbating in front of me, strip teasing, constant non-stop innuendo…  For the gross chick, I screamed and yelled at her;  I was a close friend and knew she had massive self-esteem issues, so I feel guilty about ripping her and terminating that friendship.  Especially hard since I knew through the grapevine that she continued to deteriorate.   

It does mess with your head because you aren't quite sure how to deal with it emotionally; it angers you, is incredibly frustrating, and … it’s what you’ve heard should be some sort of fantasy for men and part of you drinks that lemonade too.  So it becomes hard to decide if it is a ‘bad memory’ or a ‘cool story bro’. It's really weird for a guy; if I were a girl, it’d be very cut and dry how you are supposed to feel.  But like a guy, I shove it down and just move on like there’s nothing wrong with it knowing there’s a lot wrong with it.


Nov 15, 17 12:34 pm
shellarchitect

saw a really awkward moment when a co-worker grabbed/hugged another co-workers gf at a Christmas party last year.  It was really weird since he was like 20 years older than the girl, who was prob 25.  She was pretty clearly unhappy, both the bf and I were pretty shocked and didn't really do anything.

I wish i'd said something immediately

Nov 15, 17 3:28 pm
WhistleBlower

So interesting Shellarchitect-- It's also so hard to speak up in those situations. The slimeball knew he could cop a feel in AND not get caught. According to Cooper's 6 Levels, this man is at SH Level https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/307220

WhistleBlower

Level 3: Social Touching SH Level 3: "Social Touching" is physical contact that carefully stays within the bounds of acceptable behavior. It's the hand on the shoulder, on the small of the back or around the waist. It's giving someone -- usually a female lower on the corporate ladder -- an unasked-for backrub, and saying, "I bet this feels good." It's a constant soft and creepy touch. Example: Comedian Adam Sandler was criticized for repeatedly touching (The Crown star) Claire Foy' s knee during an interview on the Graham Norton talk show. While Foy said she wasn't offended, she looked uncomfortable and many others were put off. For his part, Sandler said his action was only a "friendly gesture." In reality, it was Level 3 Social Touching harassment, which tends to make targets squirm.

whistler

I had to "speak" to one employee about comments / emails they were making to  another employee.  Very awkward in a small office, especially as they both knew each other from a previous office years earlier and the one who was being badgered had suggested that I hire the other in the first place.

All got resolved. But I did consult my sister who happens to be an HR director at a large company on proper protocol as I had never personally witnessed any of the harassment.  Just need to be objective as it should get into a he said/she said kind of thing very quickly.


Nov 15, 17 3:36 pm
WhistleBlower

Great Whistler that you nipped this behavior in the bud!

Koww

once i had extended eye contact with a famous female architect and felt like i was being harassed sexually. Here’s my question though: should different groups within society have different standards for what constitutes sexual harassment? For example, I would hold kindergarten teachers to higher standard then oil executives. 

Nov 16, 17 9:18 pm
b3tadine[sutures]

WTF r u talkin bout, Willis?

Koww

Talkin bout sex and Xanax yo

tintt

Where would architects fall in the spectrum from kindergarten teacher to oil exec?

Koww

I feel it boils down to whether a thin mustache is acceptable. The more acceptable, the more immoral the occupation and therefore for women in that field, the less they should be shocked at unwanted sexual advances

jla-x

The thin mustache is definitely a sign of a creep, but if you see someone with thick glasses and a 70s cop mustache you better hide yo kids.

tintt

I was harrassed everyday at recess in sixth grade however.

Nov 16, 17 9:51 pm
JeromeS

What kind of vaginosis is required to "smell like sex"

Nov 17, 17 2:41 pm
archi_dude

A friend of mine and I were talking about our favorite recess games when we were in grade school and “smear the ____” came up as the best. We laughed about how it was probably totally banned on all levels. Tackling, fighting, playing with a ball (banned from most school districts in the coastal states) and then of course the name of it. Mentioning it would probably make teachers scream. We’re only 30 but we felt like grandpas just talking about how a game we played at recess would probably make a national media outrage if it happened today. Everyone calm the fuck down.

Nov 17, 17 3:05 pm
s=r*(theta)

America's struggle with finding a balance; from the creation of the country til the mid 70's it was extreme bigotry. From mid 70's til new millennium its extreme sensitivity. No joke, about 3 months ago hr, gave us mandatory lecture on diversity, sex harassment, & racism in workplace.

archi_dude

I mean that’s not that big of a deal but I feel like when you move to “we need to have a HR lecture on combating cissexist thoughts and heterosexual patriarchy” it’s like ooooookay how far down the rabbit hole are we going?

geezertect

Those seminars are not really intended to educate you, but rather to cover the company's ass in the event of a lawsuit alleging a hostile work environment.

tintt

Are any of these harrassment? I've been asked to: carry luggage, clean the bathroom, wash a car, do dirty dishes, be a chaufeur (drive to the job site but had to stay in the car.) I was pregnant when I was asked to carry luggage. You can't make this shit up.

Nov 18, 17 11:37 am
tintt

I refused to do the first three.

tintt

I do dishes but not the bosses.

randomised

I am being constantly asked to carry stuff, move stuff around or help with repositioning stuff. I've been asked to do dishes, make coffee, prepare lunch, do grocery shopping, take notes, rearrange the library, build up bookshelves, and arrange, draw and install the office lighting system. Never been asked to wash a car (everyone has bicycles) or be a chauffeur (no license). Don't know if any of it counts as harassment though, or if it is because of my gender, size or beard, male 6ft6, 230lbs, it was never sexual but I feel that people try to take advantage of my body while I'm paid for my mind. It was mostly annoying and bosses think they can ask/demand anything because they pay your salary. I do find it inappropriate and if I did such an extracurricular activity, I always took my time but never stayed late to catch up on missed work, the stuff I was actually paid to do.

tintt

I had to all those things too except the lighting. Had to weed the office yard. The car washing and bathroom cleaning were not on company time. I did wash the car but just an automatic and I paid for it myself.

tintt

In the case of the car washing, bathroom cleaning and luggage carrying it was a partner of mine.

tintt

I left the partnership. This feels cathartic!

randomised

Wow, great partner...

tintt

Tall horse.

WhistleBlower

Tintt--I just spoke with an HR person who explained things to me: "Carry luggage, clean the bathroom, wash a car, do dirty dishes, be a chaufeur (drive to the job site but had to stay in the car.) I was pregnant when I was asked to carry luggage. You can't make this shit up." I imagine that you also felt like only women were asked to do this, right? Therefore, most of the behaviors would be simply "men behaving badly" and jerks. It's not illegal, like sexual harassment, but it's shitty and inconsiderate behavior nonetheless. are you still at the office?

tintt

And this one: colleague threatens suicide to dish work on to me. Happened a few times. You guys would tell me if I have a use me sign taped to my back. Nice girls get used.

Nov 18, 17 11:46 am
tintt

Don't 'work' with 'friends'

curtkram

like, "update the site plan or i'll kill myself?" does that work, because i would try it if it works.

tintt

I can't talk about. I'm already in trouble.

tintt

If I have a nervous breakdown, who will do the site plan?

curtkram

maybe you have to threaten suicide for BIM to work? What if you harass your BIM? that could create a toxic environment.

randomised

Should have let them follow through with the threat or report them.

tintt

Does BIM come with antidepressants?

tintt

Lorazepam!

geezertect

Don't pat your BIM on the bum.

TED

Survey of top architecture firms reveals "quite shocking" lack of gender diversity at senior levels https://www.dezeen.com/2017/11...

Nov 18, 17 4:39 pm
s=r*(theta)

surprised about charlie rose; no surprise when it catch's up to 45, but im sure he is concern.

Suppose I should update of my resume with language that compliment my inclusivity and self control skill set and ability ; reminds me of my job hunting days, I would just watch the obituaries looking for "Local project architect leaves behind...", now Its watching CNN and local news waiting for a "project architect is accused of...." pretty sure job openings all around in days to come at this rate! yaaaaaay me!!!

Nov 22, 17 11:04 am
spiketwig

I've not experienced any sexual harassment, but subtle gender stuff, yes. The worst part about it, is that you're never quite sure if it's happening or if you're just being paranoid. Examples:

- Older men in the office being extra nice because they're scared of hurting my feelings (are they really just super into helping you or are they seeing you as their daughter who needs protection?)

- Older men in the office being extra cranky because they don't think a young woman could possibly know about (insert technical thing here) - or are they just cranky old guys? 

- Being ignored on the job site when your male boss is also there (are they talking to him because he's the highest level person there or because they want to talk to a dude?) 

- Being told by your (female) department head that you need to project a more friendly positive demeanor and that people think you look mad all the time. 

- Being told by your (female) department head that you should consider dressing more formally (for reference guys here wear jeans + plaid collared shirts as a standard uniform - we are not that fancy. But I guess women have to be fancier?) 

- Somehow always being on the wrong side of either "not confident" enough or "overstepping" 

I could go on.. 

Nov 22, 17 11:31 am
geezertect

The older guys are BOTH cranky and too nice? Yes, that does sound a little paranoid. As for being ignored on the site in favor of a more senior manager, do you really think that's not just how the world works. People always want to talk to the more experienced decision maker. If you are treated rudely, that is of course another matter. It's hard to know without being there ourselves.

b3tadine[sutures]

geezer, your response, is actually part of the problem.

geezertect

b3: which part of what I said is "part of the problem"? Only the poster knows for sure what exactly happened to her. Excessive patronizing is a problem, for sure. So is nastiness. I k

b3tadine[sutures]

geezer, first, you're not a woman. second, in both instances of cranks, and overtly nice, patronizing men, the same thing is at play; lack of respect. Not "paranoia", which is the gaslighting of all gaslighting techniques. Lastly, as an architect, and one that has managed female subordinates, I felt it was my responsibility to make sure, especially on a job site, or in front of people more senior than I, that women were not ignored. Also, I can imagine that if the women was the PA/PM on the project, they would many times know more about the project than the PIC. Talk about why this profession sucks, that's it in a nutshell.

spiketwig

All these responses are exactly why this stuff is so crazy making. I mean, maybe there's been legit reasons for all of it. Maybe. 

I doubt it's been all one or the other. For the record on site, I was the PA and had not only done all the drawings but had also done 95% the coordination/email/communication - pretty much all my boss (PM) had done was send the contracts when we kicked off the project. 

WhistleBlower

Hey spiketwig, thanks for your post, i totally agree it's the subtle stuff. Firstly, that feeling on not being sure if it's you or them--that's why gaslighting is SO pervasive.... " Somehow always being on the wrong side of either "not confident" enough or "overstepping" " Yep, Double-bind galore!

urbanity

here are some of the highlights from my 30 year career...

male coworker jams his tongue into my mouth while we were speaking about a project. persistently asked me out until i just quit rather than continue to deal with a guy who can't take no for an answer.

repeat that scenario a few more times at different firms with different male coworkers over the years.

boss waited until we were the last two people to leave, calls me over to his desk where he is jerking himself off. years later, i had heard that he had done that to most of the female employees.

last job before i started my own gig, old guy wouldn't stop rubbing his leg up against mine and asking me out. he only stopped when he figured out that i made a much higher salary than he did.

had a contractor take a roll of plans that i prepared and affixed my stamp to, and slap my ass with them...

each of these instances impacted my ability to earn a living for myself.

Nov 22, 17 11:05 pm
WhistleBlower

Oh my gosh, that's awful Urbanity....Apparently SH offenders don't have 1 target but many over time.... so these stories are more familiar than not...Do you now if this guy has ever gotten in trouble for his actions? Is it...Richard Meier? What would be the chances!? 


tintt

This thread was about sexual harrassment at work. If we are breaking the silence on other abuses, I was sexually abused by a teacher and two family members from age 5-19. Before now, I had only told 3 people. Nobody wants to hear about it.

Nov 24, 17 1:22 am
archietechie

Devolving more into a pity party but oh well, I'll just be here with my popcorn.

tintt

Thanks.

tintt

I have no idea what you are talking about Antwoine.

tintt

You lost me after sorry.

tintt

And I see I spelled harassment wrong.

randomised

Holy shit, that's horrible (not the spelling mistake). I hope that justice was done, if even possible, and that you were able to somehow move past it, what's wrong with people?

RickB-Astoria

Lets just hope we don't see this turn into sexual harassment lawsuits when the women of architecture goes on a witch hunt and suing every single heterosexual male on this forum and elsewhere just because men says something remotely sexual in nature or able to be interpreted as such.

It's too bad that heterosexual males can not be heterosexual males anymore. It's a kind of culture war around gender/sexual orientation culture.

Oh well.... good bye planet earth.

New postal address:

10 Charon Orbit
Pluto, Sol Solar System
Milky Way Galaxy

:-P


Nov 25, 17 2:32 am
RickB-Astoria

Photo from Charon Orbit

randomised

Well, let's first hope they don't sexually harass people, because if they do any witch hunt or law suit or whatever is going on right now would be fully justified in architecture too. A little empathy for any victims of sexual harassment would have been nice.

Rick, you won't even move to Portland to get a job, but yet you'll move to the outer edges of the solar system because you're afraid some woman at some job you don't have will start accusing you of sexually harassing her just because you're heterosexual? 

Nov 25, 17 11:10 am
jla-x

Rick, you won't make it past Uranus.

RickB-Astoria

If you think I'm being serious about moving to the outer edges of the solar system, you got to be f---ing moronic. 

RickB-Astoria

1. I'm not interested in living in Portland or other big cities. I've lived in a big city before. Los Angeles area.

2. I'm not an employee kind of person. I don't take kindly of being treated as if I never read a book on architecture. I've been in building design for over 10 years. I've spent over 10 years studying architecture, engineering, historic preservation (both formal and self-study). Just because I don't have a B.Arch doesn't mean I don't have a f---ing clue about architectural styles, zoning laws, building codes and numerous other subjects in the matter. I can give a f--- less about the internal firm politics. Not interested in such bullshit.


jla-x

Oh, I thought you were really moving there. My bad.

RickB-Astoria

I should use that as a forwarding address for spam mail. (Half to address email spam in a different way, though.)

Maybe, you ought to pick a little spot in the solar system or galaxy as a forwarding address for shit mail that enters your mail box.


RickB-Astoria

.

RickB-Astoria

Women on this forum who wishes to sue me for sexual harassment, they can send all lawsuit notices to the new mailing address:

10 Charon Orbit
Pluto, Sol Solar System
Milky Way Galaxy

* Seriously, have a little sense of humor *

Yes, real cases of sexual harassment is a serious issue should not be taken too lightly nor inappropriately too seriously. There are points where anything can be taken out of hand even causes with a generally good causes like equal and fair treatment of people regardless of gender. Fair pay regardless of gender or sexual orientation. 


Nov 26, 17 1:40 am
RickB-Astoria's comment has been hidden
RickB-Astoria

"Rick, you won't even move to Portland to get a job..."

Are you telling me some tall tale about architects in Portland, Oregon willing to hire people without a formal college degree in architecture (BA/BS in Architecture or a B.Arch or M.Arch degree) for positions in the architectural side of things?

If they are willing, why don't they just say so on their notices for job positions. 

If you're talking about jobs at McDonald's or similar places? I don't need to go to Portland for those kinds of jobs. They exist in Astoria area. I didn't get a college education for such jobs. I've had those kinds of jobs. I don't write them in resumes for professional job positions. They are generally excluded because often I've been keeping work in computer field or building design business operations running even when I have such jobs. No one is interested in seeing if I worked at McDonalds or as a janitor as a movie cinema or other like jobs. In fact, that is just the kind of stuff that employers tends to just see as reasons to not hire a person. As if working as a janitor or as a fast food customer representative or whatever is going to be anything meaningful for whether someone is qualified or otherwise would be a good fit for working at their firm. All it says is that the person has had experience with customer service. If you want a receptionist, maybe but receptionists aren't hired to be part of the design team of architectural projects. 

In our culture, these days, the design team and/or principals would be telling the receptionist to shut up before the receptionist even gets to convey their thoughts. Add to that, I can't get AXP training hours for receptionist work or at the very least, very little AXP training hours and employers aren't going to sign off on AXP hours for someone they hired as a receptionist/office assistant. They may if the person was hired to be part of the design team. If they did, the person would have to have an architecture degree.

If they were not so fixed on applicants having an architecture degree, they wouldn't have it as a mandatory requirement in the job position posting. Look at those postings and you'll see.... "Must have _________ degree." or similar wording. Pick your variant of architectural degrees for the underline.

Why in the world would I even bother to waste my time trying to apply for a job at an architectural firm in Portland with all those people with the formal education. I could have 50 years of building design experience and not even be considered. I could have the accolades comparable of Cliff May and still not be considered. They would hire some fresh out of college student with absolutely zero experience ever designing a building over someone without any formal college education in architecture even if they had 1000+ homes and light commercial buildings that they had designed. At that point, the obvious question, then would be, why would I even bother to apply for such a position when I would likely make more money designing those homes and light commercial buildings. However, Cliff May had the following going for him: 1) Timing ( Considering his main part of his career was in the post World War II ), 2) The G.I. Bill that facilitated the huge explosive housing boon during that time. 3) Location: California was a hot spot for people moving to. Route 66, Hollywood, and very good promoting of California and it's "perfect" sunny weather. There was jobs at the major cities in California and major growth in population in California during that time frame.

I know I don't have Cliff May's accolades. Therefore, if those firms won't hire a person similar to Cliff May without an architecture degree, why would they hire me?

Even if I did get hired, I would be treated as if I never had any education in architecture with severe condescending attitude. I doubt I have the patience for 5 months of that crap let alone 5 or 10 years of that crap. I already spent a good 10 years of my life in both formal and self-taught studies in architecture, engineering, historic preservation, etc.

Sure, there is some things the more experienced Principals and similarly experienced architects on the time may have some experiences that would be A) informative and B) good to learn from. There are some people that gets overly condescending. Something that will get too irritating after awhile. There is only so much patience I have. 

Why would I subject myself to that kind of bullsh-t?


Nov 26, 17 4:50 am
RickB-Astoria

Don't get me wrong, there could be reasons compelling enough to reside in Portland, Oregon for a period of time. I'm not sure why all the architects are huddling up into the big cities like Portland. Why are we trying to make the big city a part of the life of becoming an architect when it wasn't. That's decisions you are made for yourselves and systemically imposing it on those people. Architects are suppose to serve small geographical areas. Traditionally, that was within a 30 minute to an hour drive. Basically, about 50 mile radius. This is because architecture is a kind of personal level professional service and very community oriented profession. 


RickB-Astoria

One reason I may go to Portland area is if I was attending an architecture school program. However, there are a few things I would need to get together before doing so but maybe a reason. If I were attending such program, it would be handy to be working for an architect (even part-time). Part of it is to address things like housing expense. Portland's expensive. Even commuting can be a tad pricey. However, I would have to attend such classes at a half-time to maybe 3/4 time (less than 12 credits but about 9 credits or so) to fit in commute time and/or part-time job. 

RickB-Astoria

I had been distancing myself from pursuing this career track. I'm getting too old for going into architecture school program and internship. Even if I could, I'd be old compared to the typical students. Bright side, architecture is a profession that a person could do into their 90s. However, the profession has to be valued better financially. Hear far too much sad stories of people never earning enough or being poorly paid or client not paying. They don't do that to their lawyer, doctor, or even the construction contractor so much but far too many do that to architects & designers (building designers and other designers).

geezertect

Hear far too much sad stories of people never earning enough or being poorly paid or client not paying. They don't do that to their lawyer, doctor, or even the construction contractor so much but far too many do that to architects & designers (building designers and other designers).

geezertect

ignore the above. I was going to respond to Rick, but it's off topic. Sorry, couldn't delete his quote.

RickB-Astoria

no prob....

JeromeS

good god, we're back to this?!


You expect me to believe that a guy who is 40-50 years old, lives in his parents basement, doesnt have a job, talks incessantly about how smart he is, and does want to be told what to do- somehow, SOMEHOW- got close enough to a real live woman that he thinks he might be sued for harrassment?!



Nov 26, 17 7:45 am
archi_dude

Yes, it's why I read this forum.

jla-x

Do Blow up dolls and goats count?

RickB-Astoria's comment has been hidden
RickB-Astoria

I'm not 40-50 years old. I don't work for an employer because I have my own business. Why would I be working for an employer and running a business? 


Nov 26, 17 11:12 am
Non Sequitur

You need clients and provide a service, preferably for some money, to have a business Ricky.

RickB-Astoria

Wrong Non Sequitur. That is to earn an income. To have a business, all that is needed is a business registration/license and being open for business. 

As for providing a service, what do you think offering building design services, landscape design, interior design and historic preservation services are? That is by definition what it is. 

I just haven't for the last few months been focused on that but it doesn't mean that I can't still offer those services and technically they are still offered but unless a client is serious, I'd be hesitant on taking crap work that is just trying to waste time because they want everything but don't want to pay for it. When you have competitors offering design services for free, it's hard and very depressing to offer such services for money because how can I offer those services that takes considerable amount of time to do competently for nothing. 

I can't just be doing it for love, you know because to do work to a professional quality level takes too much time to allow you time to do other things at a professional level because this isn't a profession that a person can really do on a part time per week basis. It might not be 2080 hours a year but when there are projects, it is around 40 hours a week minimum commitment because clients deadlines for example requires it. You just can't be doing this 10 hours a week unless the client isn't on any form of a timeline basis. 

In my experience, even small projects tends to demand significant amount of time. It's not just something you can clock in and clock out. In some ways, it's around the clock. It's like that throughout the project duration.

archi_dude's comment has been hidden
archi_dude

Rick, I've known two people without degrees. They are better paid and hold higher positions purely because instead of school they spent 5 years working and gaining experience. They add the projects they've worked on to their portfolio and immediately principals are like "oh shit, yeah, we'll waive the degree requirement." 

Nov 26, 17 11:42 am
RickB-Astoria

How old are they? 60+ years old, now? Keep in mind, I'm not generally coming from doing projects that gives me the kinds of opportunities of really designing like Frank Lloyd Wright. I mainly got projects involving existing buildings and often on rather low budget so it really isn't the kinds of projects that can really show off ones design capabilities. They aren't by nature 'artsy'. They are addressing issues pragmatically and usually in a fashion that is cost effective and in cases, using methodologies that are more proven. I'm not doing things like Frank Gehry. I'm not doing things so avant-garde. After all, nothing Frank Gehry is doing is going to be affordable to the small budget clients. How the hell am I going to sell and promote that kind of work in a portfolio to architects who would be seeing stacks of resumes & associated portfolios full of these fancy artsy academic assignments done in some studio class?

To be honest, if they got hired fairly recent (like in the last 5 to 10 years or close to those number of years so less than say... 20 years), I am actually surprised. If they got hired in a firm in Oregon, I would genuinely be impressed. 


RickB-Astoria

Before thinking otherwise, your comment does make me feel a little better about prospects. Still lots of challenges and hurdles but maybe not insurmountable. 

archi_dude

One is in his late twenties the other is close to 40. Both are licensed in CA.

RickB-Astoria

I get it, it's California. It's only because California is one of a handful of states that you can get licensed without a degree.

randomised

What happened to this thread, Jesus Christ...

Nov 27, 17 1:31 am
Non Sequitur

Balkins happened.

jla-x

^great bumper sticker

Non Sequitur

.

On the fence

More like napalm.

Non Sequitur

Great post I made and had forgotten until now.

LightMyFire66's comment has been hidden
LightMyFire66

There are no pretty women in architecture so ....  no, I haven't had the opportunity to sexually harass anyone.  But I almost banged a civil engineer about 25 years ago.  Two civil engineers actually.  Couldn't decide which one to go after so they kind of canceled each other out.  Good times.

Nov 28, 17 2:03 pm
tduds

No.

RickB-Astoria's comment has been hidden
RickB-Astoria

I wouldn't necessarily say that. I've seen a few I wouldn't mind having sex with when I was at UO's in the architecture program there. I wouldn't have said no to having sex if they wanted it. I wouldn't there isn't any pretty women in architecture. I wouldn't say there were a huge percentage. Even Neri Oxman was a great visual treat for the eyes. The bright side at UO was that on those sunny days, there was a nice scenery when looking out the dorm windows. Nice scenery that gives contours to the otherwise rather flat grassy lawn.

randomised

What do you mean by "Even Neri Oxman etc." What's with the even?

RickB-Astoria's comment has been hidden
RickB-Astoria

Okay. Scratch out "Even". Lets just say..."Neri Oxman was a great visual treat for the eyes." Better?

What criteria are you asking for a judgement of better? Better objectification of women? Better digital trail for the lawyers who might one day represent Neri Oxman in a harassment suit against you? Please be more specific.

tduds

NO.

RickB-Astoria

By definition, we're all objects by the way. Yes, Neri Oxman is a physically attractive woman. She's also a smart woman as well.

Never heard of Neri Oxman before. But I guess we're in the minority here. Comments are hidden, obviously too offensive for the snowflakes who are the majority on this forum. At least we can rest comfortably with the preconceived notion that most architects are pussies with no sense of humor.

RickB-Astoria

LOL.

OneLostArchitect

used to work at a small place with a bunch of older gentlemen. Whenever the boss man left the office the porn videos came on everyone’s monitors... these guys were all married and beaten dogs. I was a fresh grad, and even as a male I felt very uncomfortable about it. I quit after 2 months at that position

Nov 28, 17 8:54 pm
citizen

Are you saying that copy of Fountain Head was not about Howard Roark?

tintt

Does the opposite also work? Does poor ironing skills drive men away?

Nov 29, 17 11:34 am
Non Sequitur

I do all my own ironing... there is no way I'll put the life of my shirts in the hands of my wife. She does love to vacuum tho

tintt

I have terrible skills throughout the laundry process.

tintt

Cats never get it.

JLC-1

No ironing since 2008

On the fence

No poor ironing skills does not but poor cooking skills will. The little woman has a way better chance by saying "I don't cook" instead of actually cooking burnt nasty meals for her man.

lexijowhite

I wish there was a forum like rate my professor but for architects/designers with a scale of 'harassability' or something...Anybody interested in starting a list of people/firms where incidents have happened so as to help each other avoid in the future? Google doc or something I guess could work

Nov 29, 17 2:58 pm
Non Sequitur

Did you just create an account to post this?

lexijowhite

I'm often reading different blog posts in the Forum, but never have commented. I guess I thought it was time to become more engaged on this platform. Why do you ask?

geezertect

Unverifiable accusations from anonymous posters on a website is a horrible idea.

Non Sequitur

Bingo, geezer.

lexijowhite

ok i hear you... so what kind of outlet would be good to share verifiable information on. do either of you know of one already?

Glassdoor ... their review policy states "general discussions of workplace misconduct are allowed, including most discussions of illegal activities, discrimination, and sexual harassment," but I don't think they'll let you name names if that's what you're aiming for.

lexijowhite

Didn't know about that option. Thanks Everyday Architect. I'm interested in trying to help each other avoid undesirable circumstances. Nothing more to it than that.

WhistleBlower

puppiesmakemehappy I'll team up with you!

WhistleBlower

I hope you're still on Archinect!!

WhistleBlower

Kittiesmakemehappy: we have a lot in common. Let's tag team and get a doc together so we

WhistleBlower

Can start collecting data about firms. Or surely someone knows some folks doing thi
s work?

Non Sequitur

Puppies only existed here for this brief discussion.

JeromeS

Garrison Keillor got jobbed!

Nov 29, 17 4:01 pm
JonathanLivingston

Man this one, along with Franken are still kinda bothering me. internally I'm trying to reconcile the fact that good people sometimes do bad things. Is it a zero sum game? how do you weigh these kinds of issues against a life time of positive work or other accomplishments? I was thinking about Thomas Jefferson, you know the rapist on our $2 dollar bill.

JeromeS

Maybe Garrison is right. Maybe there is an air of McCarthy-ism to what’s happening.

JeromeS

I read his statement as an F-U, in a way only Garrison can say it

won and done williams

Not to get too political here, but how long has the left cast a blind eye towards Bill Clinton? It's a lot harder when it's one of your own, I guess.

3tk

Yup. Seen it in enough places (and interns ending up as partners) to know it's not rare.  Also seen it go the other way, bullying, and racial prejudice (making certain demographics work longer and speaking to them poorly).  Worst one I saw was HR harassing staff, doling out benefits to those that would obey (including puchasing after work drinks, dinner, etc); benefits being spa treatments, and looking other way on company card expenditures and time off.

Nov 29, 17 5:41 pm
cipyboy

ya know that it's getting a little out of hand when Massage Envy clients come forward with these claims.


Nov 30, 17 3:49 pm
JonathanLivingston

I was once propositioned by a female client. It made the relationship finishing the project very awkward as we had a lot of meetings with her husband too. I'm not sure he would have cared. I'm not sure I would call it harassment because it was a one time thing, just an unwanted advance, and not a coworker, so the situation ended fairly quickly. 

Other than that I have not seen what I would call harassment.  

But the sexism in this industry is very real. I have seen many of the things woman have posted about being judged or relegated to tasks based on their gender. I had a female principle at a firm for quite a while and though I was her subordinate any number of people from clients to contractors and reps would speak to me first presumably only because I was a man. 

I am extremely worried that while we think we are dealing with this harassment issue right now, we are actually setting ourselves way back. How many stupid men (as evidenced by this thread) are going to avoid talking to a woman because they are worried that a misstep could cause a problem? Is it safer to talk to the man? does that undermine women's ability to claim authority? 

I worry less about harassment of my daughters because I think they have a strong constitution and the ability to stand up and say NO or speak out when something bad happens. But the systemic misogynistic views that prevent opportunities being available to them in the first place is an issue I do not yet have an answer to. I think we just desperately need gender equality at the top. Like some sort of affirmative action plan but for women.  

I'm sure that comment is going to see some haters. I'm not attacking men. Don't conflate the issue with your masculinity. 

Nov 30, 17 5:30 pm
JonathanLivingston

It's a double edged sword. A women can't act without reinforcing the stereo type. That's my fear. All of this action, however correct it may be is being blown out of proportion to the extent that it is having some really negative consequences.

JonathanLivingston

The "Pence Rule" is way worse for society than the harrasment issues. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/nov/29/mike-pence-rule-contrasts-sex-misconduct-accusatio/

randomised

"All of this action, however correct it may be is being blown out of proportion to the extent that it is having some really negative consequences." 

What are those really negative consequences? Just keeping it in your pants is always an option...

won and done williams

I find it uncomfortable when men are having a conversation about what's best for women, even if well intentioned. I know ya'll are trying to be sympathetic, but somehow it just comes off as re-enforcing the schism you are trying to break down.

JonathanLivingston

@ Won, Yeah I know what you mean, but a conversation has to happen. There are women on this thread who are contributing to the conversation. @Randomised the negative consequence is you are seeing men worried about false accusations. Mainly because of the hype and sensationalism given to these claims. the vitriol with which some are defending and ostracizing offenders. There will most certainly be both men and women who are hesitant to engage each other professionally because of perceived risk. This is the idea of the "Pence Rule" It has nothing to do with protecting women and everything to do with protecting Mike Pence. It seems horrible to me that could be the outcome for some people, because now rather than potentially having to deal with a shitty harassment or inappropriate situation women are not even in the room. Opportunities are denied. Women are seen as a burden.

jla-x

I've never harassed a women in my life. It's actually really easy to not harass women. This is not "a conversation we need to have" as most people already know appropriate from inappropriate. This is a conversation some assholes need to hear. Big difference.

jla-x

We also need to stop pretending that we don't notice attractive women. It's bullshit. It's tantamount to "colorblindness". People need to be mature enough to think "wow she is beautiful", and still show respect. Fucking thought police and these pc hipster assholes are the new puritans. And women need to stop playing the sex card. Some women are dumb and some are assholes just as some men are. Equality means that I should be able to call a women a moron as I can call a man one. Or disagree with their policy or idea without automatically being called a sexist.

JonathanLivingston

"I've never harassed a women in my life. It's actually really easy to not harass women. This is not a conversation we need to have ." We are not the ones who define what is harassment. That is for the victim to decide.

JonathanLivingston

You should read that article that Tduds posted a few comments down. You and I are both one of the "good guys" just like Franken, Keilor, and Clinton. Good people sometimes do shitty things. Often without the knowledge what they are doing is shitty. 

jla-x

Terrible article pushing guilty until proven innocent bs. Sexual assault and harassment are very obvious to anyone with common sense. Main problem is that now you have wolves like Matt lauer wearing a pc sheep suit. Harder to know upfront
who we are dealing with.

randomised

"@Randomised the negative consequence is you are seeing men worried about false accusations. Mainly because of the hype and sensationalism given to these claims."

randomised

I don't see any innocent men worried about false accusations. All I see is guilty men worried about being called out next.

RickB-Astoria

Lets ask ourselves, what IS sexual harassment and what isn't? Do we have a clear define line that say what is or isn't that is static and unshifting? How can we follow or comply with something that is shifty and differing from person to person, day to day. How can we know if we "sexually harrassed" someone if they don't give any form of indication that it is unwanted or undesired or discomforted? We aren't mind-readers? If we were, then this would be a non-issue. When someone 'comes out' 20-30 years later, making a claim and suing a person, how do we know if it was really unwanted or harassment? Could that person's view of what is or isn't sexual harassment changed and now 20-30 years later, the cultural value of the time defines it as sexual harassment but 20 to 30 years ago, it wasn't and now we get a cascade of lawsuits. When we look at Roy Moore's cases from maybe 40+ years ago, wasn't it legal at the time for a person in high school at age 16 or even 14 years of age to consent to sex with anyone of any age. Wasn't the culture of place different at that time different. It wasn't that long ago in history that people were legally consenting to sex and marriage at age 12. While it would be unacceptable these days, it would be wrong to penalize people for actions that were legal and culturally accepted norm at the time. Otherwise, we would be criminalizing people for actions before it was outlawed. While, I don't feel Roy Moore's conduct was appropriate and even predatory when looking at his case in specific but claims against people can get out of hand, too. If sexual harassment was defined only by what the person making the claim views as sexual harassment than promotes a guilty until proven innocent situation against the accused. What about the accused? What about their rights? When media condemns a person, that person life is totally ruined even if they were to win such case. These people would be forced to accept guilty pleas to try to get it off the media quicker and minimize impact. If a person is accused, and the media picks up on it, that person is criminalized and demonized to the point that these persons are almost better off committing suicide or literally moving out of the country and live like a Tibetan monk or something or a hermit for the rest of their natural lives all because the accuser 20-30 years after the fact decides some statement said 20-30 years ago is sexual harassment. Women are and have been given this kind of power because they have a legal system and media culture that is bias to their side and men are treated as guilty until proven innocent as if the woman can not possibly have some ulterior motive or something. Hell, isn't there even a freakin' statutes of limitation/repose for some of this. Don't give me some b.s. that women always has it against them. No they don't. They have things on their side in the court room and with the media. A true equality means neither side has a bias. When having the media bias on their side, they won and already ruined the accused before the accused could even have a unbiased court case to properly defend themselves. The damage on the accused is already been made. If you're a man and a woman accuses you of sexual harassment and takes it to the media that is hyper eager to publish it, that man loses his job and career effectively ruined whether or not the woman's accusation has any merit. There is no requirement of merit. That's more power than any man in America other than maybe the President of the U.S. has. We can't even pursue suing for libel or slander or otherwise. There's no equitable reward that the courts would ever reward to compensate for the life long damage and destruction of one's career. If a man accused a woman, they would never publish it in the news and the courts will generally side with the woman because it is unthinkable that a man can ever be a victim of sexual harassment. It's like, are kidding? You're joking.... right? You can't possibly be a victim of a woman.

randomised

An erection doesn't mean consent.

tintt

President Trump hasn't been taken down yet. 

Dec 1, 17 9:18 am
tintt

Denny Hastert is in prison.

won and done williams

NT

tintt

He is out? I wasn't aware.

tintt

So he is. Molest some kids and commit financial fraud and you get 13 months. I think it is a fine example of how we treat convicted sex offenders of high power. It is easy to see how some prefer to remain silent.

s=r*(theta)

45's days are numbered; only a matter of time before melania rolls on him

tduds

This seems relevant to the conversation: https://medium.com/@thefatshad...

Dec 1, 17 4:26 pm
JonathanLivingston

Good read. Thanks

77LightTemple
Heard on the street that Gensler had a few cases
Dec 6, 17 2:23 pm
tintt

We should send some decoys with hidden cameras into these offices. Call John Stossel.

Apr 24, 18 12:48 pm
citizen

So, the Stoss in a blond wig, fishnets, and heels that take him up to 6 foot 6? I'm aroused already!  That hairbrush he calls a mustache will need a LOT of foundation to hide, though ;o]

tintt

So a big hairy blonde in fishnets is what gets you going. Good to know. Better make those fishnets heavy duty kind...

citizen

Yes, actual nets used for fishing. I don't know what it is about them...

tintt

You are secretly desiring to be a captive fish?

curtkram

aren't we all tintt?

tintt

'fraid so.

Bench

Its called a Kamoose up here in the north eh

Apr 25, 18 10:27 am

Block this user


Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?

  • ×Search in: