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Sexual harrassment

BulgarBlogger

Has anyone experienced this in an architecture office setting? I guess its fashionable to to blame celebrities these days; wanted to hear about some real cases...just curious...

 
Nov 14, 17 10:35 pm
No only in a property management office but I think that company got fired.
Nov 14, 17 10:49 pm

I was just propositioned via Twitter by someone claiming to be a soldier/web cam sex bot. Is that harassment or just weird luck?

Nov 14, 17 10:55 pm
BulgarBlogger

Only if you are a “licensed residential designer”

Nov 14, 17 10:58 pm

harassment or luck? So confusing

Some douche bag harassed my fiance once but he got "retired" thankfully.

Nov 14, 17 11:11 pm
BulgarBlogger

david- You strike me as someone who is very active online and I wouldnt be surprised if some cookie in your browser caught onto some funny internet activity... they have these algorithms these days that try to sell you stuff you are interested in...


To your question I say- Its only luck if there was no reason for this event to play out the way it did. Only you would know the real answer...


But back to my original post- Architecture is dominated by men, so it isnt an unreasonable question to ask women about their experiences with harassment.

Nov 14, 17 11:17 pm
RickB-Astoria

This topic about sexual harassment isn't just women as the victim and men as the perpetrator.

Your question did not specify gender.
Nov 14, 17 11:30 pm
senjohnblutarsky

Sexism, sure.  Vulgarity, yep.

Haven't witnessed anything I would consider harassment, though. 

Nov 15, 17 8:05 am
randomised

As a guy myself I'm very picky of the nature of the offices I work at, therefore I guess I ended up working mostly for and with women and there never was this kind of locker room atmosphere or unprofessionalism that could lead to sexual harassment. Was working for a small all-guys office for a bit and there the atmosphere and kind of conversations were noticeably different, lots of testosterone...but nothing weird ever happened. So no.

Nov 15, 17 8:29 am
fictional\_/Christopher

I am still waiting, what do i have to do to get harrassed by the hottest ladies in the office?


...kidding, so many damn dudes in this profession you have better chances of getting harrassed by a dude than the New York Giants winning a football game...wait, those are slim to none chances...

Nov 15, 17 8:33 am
sameolddoctor
Got a couple of "pervert Grandpa" types in the office where I'm at...
Nov 15, 17 10:46 am

only two?

sameolddoctor
Got a couple of "pervert Grandpa" types in the office where I'm at...
Nov 15, 17 10:46 am
molten

A former colleague at a previous firm was harassed by a coworker when she was a fresh grad. I was told the partners' solution was that they would never work on a project together again. This was many, many years ago...they're both principals at this firm now.

I'm sure there are some men who have experienced this but harassment in the workplace is an issue that disproportionately affects women.

Nov 15, 17 10:47 am
jla-x

men cannot get sexually harassed by women.  They can be bullied, but not sexually.  99% of the time we would either like it or think it's funny (even if she were unattractive).  I don't know a single man that would cry or be psychologically affected if a women masterbated in front of them like Louis CK.  That's the difference.  Now if a man harrased another man...that's a different matter.  Personally, I've never witnessed anything first hand in the design world.  I did know a girl who some douche tried to push up on when I was younger.  We did very bad things to his car. 



Nov 15, 17 11:31 am

Sorry jla-x, men can be sexually harassed by women. They can also be sexually harassed by other men. Sexual harassment doesn't have to be in the form of Louis C.K.

^ +++

Female Principal makes your future advancement in the firm contingent on sexual favors. You might not cry, or be psychologically damaged, but you would be affected professionally.

bowling_ball

WTF. I'm sure you're trolling, jla-x. At least I really really hope so.

archiwutm8

I know many men who were sexualised at a particular firm I worked at, the female manager was very vulgar and sexually harassed the younger employees under her management.

randomised
I don't know a single man that would cry or be psychologically affected if a women masterbated in front of them like Louis CK. I can think of quite some women I wouldn't want to masturbate in front of me and who'd leave me scarred for life.
jla-x

you guys don't see the difference between say a female teacher having sex with a male student vs the opposite? Even a big grilled woman Pulling a Louis CK in front of me would make me laugh, run away laughing at worst, and leave me with a really funny
story to tell my friends.

jla-x

You guys are too sensitive. Nothing personally offends me much. I know everyone is different, but personally if Rosie O'Donnell humped me to Jamaican dance club music I would likely run away and laugh. Zero psychological harm would be done. If it were a boss I would use it to blackmail them. FOH.

jla-x

But I understand it's different for women...which is why my wife carries a .38 revolver. And yes, she is a minority female from NYC...She calls it her gender equalizer.

Superfluous Squirrel

Its not about being offended. Its about someone who has power over you making you uncomfortable, and you would feel uncomfortable every time she asks you to do anything inappropriate or not. Would you get fired if you ran away? Would you quit if she made you watch every day? How would you explain why you left to the next firm that hired you? The whole problem is wayyyy bigger than that one moment. You would make major changes in your professional life and career because of this one interaction.

RickB-Astoria

I'll amend jla-x's comment. Replace the generic man/men/male with heterosexual man/men or heterosexual male(s). The heterosexual male culture is not offended but encourages the engagement of sexuality and sexual advancement with women of the opposite gender. Exceptions do exist..... maybe watching an overweight whale of a woman weighing a 1/4 ton or more masterbating might cause a man to cry or want to claw out their eyes. That might be traumatic as it would be if it was a male like that.

RickB-Astoria

Superluous Squirrel, Workplaces and working with new people you don't know is suppose to be uncomfortable. People NEED to grow a skin. Hypersensitivity that our culture is currently experiencing leads to no workable relationship to other people. There is a difference between uncomfortable and offended. Sure, just starting out at any place is to some extent uncomfortable. This is due to not having any relationship with the new people. However, if you are ultra hypersensitive to anything a person says with anything of sexual nature of even the slightest or otherwise to offense to someone even saying "You look nice, today", you're useless to the work place because you can't work with other people. You can't establish relationship. If you take offense to ANY man saying something even as slight as "You look nice" or some other very mild comments, come on. There might be an issue that you're what is called a "man hater" and you can't work in an office with people of the opposite gender. Sometimes, the jokes that may go around from time to time is to break the monotony of the dull ass work day that is lot of tedious work. Otherwise, we would be in a workplace that is quieter than even a brick & mortar library.

I've never seen nor heard of sexual harassment in any of the offices I've worked at. That doesn't mean it didn't/doesn't happen though. 

One small office I worked at had this old guy who started worrying about needing to clean up his language when he found out we had hired a woman who was going to be sitting next to him (rather than in another room) and might overhear and take offense to some stupid thing he might say. I knew the woman, having gone to school with her, and laughed about his consternation because she was probably about just as crass with her language as he was.

Nov 15, 17 11:40 am
Tinbeary There there

In the office - once, almost. I stopped the approach mid-air.  

Job site - never. Usually get treated like a princess, everyone is very respectful.

Outside of work - more than a few times. 

Number of times I was told by someone either in or out of the industry that I could not be an architect solely because of my gender - maybe 4-5 times. 

Number of times at work I was called a name like bitch, sweetie, or honey - about 4-5 as well. 

Call the last two gender harassment, not sexual. Similar.

Nov 15, 17 11:49 am
won and done williams

While I'm sure sexual harrassment exists at some firms, I think the far greater problem in the profession is the more subtle stuff - men speaking over women, assigning women to trivial or "clerical" tasks (the woman is always picked by the man to be the note taker), not respecting women's opinions at the design table, not promoting women to leadership positions, etc. I see this everyday, and it drives me crazy. And it's usually the guy who claims to be the most "inclusive" that is the biggest a-hole.

Nov 15, 17 11:51 am

completely agree

s=r*(theta)

"inclusive" many times = "we have a woman and a minority (double bonus = minority woman) who knows to stay quiet in our majority group

Tinbeary There there

Women are good note takers because we can listen and write at the same time. I take it as a compliment to be a note taker. I have been asked when I was going to have babies and informed that 'is what women do, they run off and have babies' by a hiring principal. I thought that since I still got the job that it wasn't discrimination but my lawyer friends say otherwise.

won and done williams

Tinbeary, I don't disagree. Just saying most men will try to pawn off note taking because: a. they are lazy b. they think they are too important c. it leaves them free to pontificate about their great ideas without the encumbrance of having to do real work. Inclusive Man will attempt to brush off any note taking responsibilities by a. making a disingenuous self-deprecating comment about his note taking skills b. paying a disingenuous compliment towards the (most often) female note taker. See it everyday - very predictable.

Tinbeary There there

The emperor wears no clothes.

Tinbeary There there

Inclusive Man, ha! ...I'm suddenly inspired to write comics.

thisisnotmyname

Phony "inclusiveness" is something I've seen as well. I worked at an office where they always made sure they had 1 or 2 African Americans on staff, but they always got the worst work assignments and were always the first to be laid off. One time, the firm laid off 15% of the staff in one afternoon and the people were all black, female, or Jewish.

JLC-1

my wife feels she's been discriminated all her life, nobody has ever sexually harassed her. me too.

Nov 15, 17 12:05 pm
JLC-1

we've never been "in".

mightyaa

Yep, guys can be harassed.. Not in the workplace for me, but yes I have been a few times by women who probably also believe "all guys want it regardless and like it”; it’s confusing emotionally for a guy.  

I'm talking being woken up from a drunken stupor in a rapey way by someone you’ve told you aren’t into them (and privately think are pretty gross), or my friend's psycho girlfriend thinking it was funny constantly messing with me knowing that I was a boy scout sort who wouldn't mess with a friend's girlfriend..  'safe' for her. Think walking around naked, masturbating in front of me, strip teasing, constant non-stop innuendo…  For the gross chick, I screamed and yelled at her;  I was a close friend and knew she had massive self-esteem issues, so I feel guilty about ripping her and terminating that friendship.  Especially hard since I knew through the grapevine that she continued to deteriorate.   

It does mess with your head because you aren't quite sure how to deal with it emotionally; it angers you, is incredibly frustrating, and … it’s what you’ve heard should be some sort of fantasy for men and part of you drinks that lemonade too.  So it becomes hard to decide if it is a ‘bad memory’ or a ‘cool story bro’. It's really weird for a guy; if I were a girl, it’d be very cut and dry how you are supposed to feel.  But like a guy, I shove it down and just move on like there’s nothing wrong with it knowing there’s a lot wrong with it.


Nov 15, 17 12:34 pm
fictional\_/Christopher

Drunken stupor...yeah i had to turn that one into a cool story once, because when i brought my fiance (now wife) back "home" i knew they would bring it up as they s

fictional\_/Christopher

Did. I prepped my wife on the plane, she got over it quick and thought it was funny. She still buat my balla over it to this day...

shellarchitect

saw a really awkward moment when a co-worker grabbed/hugged another co-workers gf at a Christmas party last year.  It was really weird since he was like 20 years older than the girl, who was prob 25.  She was pretty clearly unhappy, both the bf and I were pretty shocked and didn't really do anything.

I wish i'd said something immediately

Nov 15, 17 3:28 pm
whistler

I had to "speak" to one employee about comments / emails they were making to  another employee.  Very awkward in a small office, especially as they both knew each other from a previous office years earlier and the one who was being badgered had suggested that I hire the other in the first place.

All got resolved. But I did consult my sister who happens to be an HR director at a large company on proper protocol as I had never personally witnessed any of the harassment.  Just need to be objective as it should get into a he said/she said kind of thing very quickly.


Nov 15, 17 3:36 pm

I gave up on working in firms. It is difficult enough trying to convince even one client to do architecture. Never mind dealing with supposed adults who never even learned basic rules in childhood like "no touching without permission".

Nov 15, 17 4:56 pm
s=r*(theta)

Dave, no touching w/o permission are the good old days of sex harassment, in the new millennium in if you look longer than 2 sec's or your breathing pattern changes in 4 breathe's or you struggle with being sensitive to the guy who gender identifies with being a red goat your are SOL!!

curtkram

s=r, have you ever caused other people to be uncomfortable in their workplace?

s=r*(theta)

Curt, Im a blackman in like a 80% white male dominated field, of course people are uncomfortable as soon as they see me walk into the work place

curtkram

i see. so we know it's not because you look at them for more than 2 seconds anyway.

s=r*(theta)

Heavens no!! I always wear really dark shades; it was more the heavy breathing ;D

fictional\_/Christopher

.


Nov 15, 17 10:57 pm
Koww

once i had extended eye contact with a famous female architect and felt like i was being harassed sexually. Here’s my question though: should different groups within society have different standards for what constitutes sexual harassment? For example, I would hold kindergarten teachers to higher standard then oil executives. 

Nov 16, 17 9:18 pm
b3tadine[sutures]

WTF r u talkin bout, Willis?

Koww

Talkin bout sex and Xanax yo

Tinbeary There there

Where would architects fall in the spectrum from kindergarten teacher to oil exec?

Koww

I feel it boils down to whether a thin mustache is acceptable. The more acceptable, the more immoral the occupation and therefore for women in that field, the less they should be shocked at unwanted sexual advances

fictional\_/Christopher

Ahhh...zeee thin Mouse-tache! Haha

jla-x

The thin mustache is definitely a sign of a creep, but if you see someone with thick glasses and a 70s cop mustache you better hide yo kids.

Tinbeary There there

I was harrassed everyday at recess in sixth grade however.

Nov 16, 17 9:51 pm
I got complaints once at a firm for “smelling like sex”. I think I had had a quickie that morning. The next day I asked the boss “do I smell like sex now?” He said “no”.
Nov 16, 17 11:22 pm
fictional\_/Christopher

i now feel harassed

I think they were jealous
Nov 17, 17 10:20 am
JeromeS

What kind of vaginosis is required to "smell like sex"

Nov 17, 17 2:41 pm

I learned that showers can be important when sitting near others

archi_dude

A friend of mine and I were talking about our favorite recess games when we were in grade school and “smear the ____” came up as the best. We laughed about how it was probably totally banned on all levels. Tackling, fighting, playing with a ball (banned from most school districts in the coastal states) and then of course the name of it. Mentioning it would probably make teachers scream. We’re only 30 but we felt like grandpas just talking about how a game we played at recess would probably make a national media outrage if it happened today. Everyone calm the fuck down.

Nov 17, 17 3:05 pm
s=r*(theta)

America's struggle with finding a balance; from the creation of the country til the mid 70's it was extreme bigotry. From mid 70's til new millennium its extreme sensitivity. No joke, about 3 months ago hr, gave us mandatory lecture on diversity, sex harassment, & racism in workplace.

archi_dude

I mean that’s not that big of a deal but I feel like when you move to “we need to have a HR lecture on combating cissexist thoughts and heterosexual patriarchy” it’s like ooooookay how far down the rabbit hole are we going?

geezertect

Those seminars are not really intended to educate you, but rather to cover the company's ass in the event of a lawsuit alleging a hostile work environment.

we totally played that game, in addition to routinely attempting to crush the poor middle person to death on the "jungle bars".

Tinbeary There there

Are any of these harrassment? I've been asked to: carry luggage, clean the bathroom, wash a car, do dirty dishes, be a chaufeur (drive to the job site but had to stay in the car.) I was pregnant when I was asked to carry luggage. You can't make this shit up.

Nov 18, 17 11:37 am
Tinbeary There there

I refused to do the first three.

I get asked to do those things daily, I keep explaining to the children that I am the principal

(except for the being pregnant part)

Tinbeary There there

I do dishes but not the bosses.

I am my own boss

randomised

I am being constantly asked to carry stuff, move stuff around or help with repositioning stuff. I've been asked to do dishes, make coffee, prepare lunch, do grocery shopping, take notes, rearrange the library, build up bookshelves, and arrange, draw and install the office lighting system. Never been asked to wash a car (everyone has bicycles) or be a chauffeur (no license). Don't know if any of it counts as harassment though, or if it is because of my gender, size or beard, male 6ft6, 230lbs, it was never sexual but I feel that people try to take advantage of my body while I'm paid for my mind. It was mostly annoying and bosses think they can ask/demand anything because they pay your salary. I do find it inappropriate and if I did such an extracurricular activity, I always took my time but never stayed late to catch up on missed work, the stuff I was actually paid to do.

Some "firms" have billing codes for those sort of tasks. General BS life stuff that eats into the billable time. Why should you eat it?

Tinbeary There there

I had to all those things too except the lighting. Had to weed the office yard. The car washing and bathroom cleaning were not on company time. I did wash the car but just an automatic and I paid for it myself.

Tinbeary There there

In the case of the car washing, bathroom cleaning and luggage carrying it was a partner of mine.

Tinbeary There there

I left the partnership. This feels cathartic!

randomised

Wow, great partner...

Tinbeary There there

Tall horse.

Tinbeary There there

And this one: colleague threatens suicide to dish work on to me. Happened a few times. You guys would tell me if I have a use me sign taped to my back. Nice girls get used.

Nov 18, 17 11:46 am

"please wipe feet here"

Tinbeary There there

Don't 'work' with 'friends'

curtkram

like, "update the site plan or i'll kill myself?" does that work, because i would try it if it works.

Why doesn't the site plan update automatically because BIM is magic

Tinbeary There there

I can't talk about. I'm already in trouble.

Tinbeary There there

If I have a nervous breakdown, who will do the site plan?

BIM because magic

curtkram

maybe you have to threaten suicide for BIM to work? What if you harass your BIM? that could create a toxic environment.

randomised

Should have let them follow through with the threat or report them.

Tinbeary There there

Does BIM come with antidepressants?

Tinbeary There there

Lorazepam!

geezertect

Don't pat your BIM on the bum.

TED

Survey of top architecture firms reveals "quite shocking" lack of gender diversity at senior levels https://www.dezeen.com/2017/11...

Nov 18, 17 4:39 pm

1) How is "top" measured? 2) Shocking to whom? To newborns? 3) Look at any random firm website and see the bio photos of "leadership".

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