Has anyone experienced this in an architecture office setting? I guess its fashionable to to blame celebrities these days; wanted to hear about some real cases...just curious...
david- You strike me as someone who is very active online and I wouldnt be surprised if some cookie in your browser caught onto some funny internet activity... they have these algorithms these days that try to sell you stuff you are interested in...
To your question I say- Its only luck if there was no reason for this event to play out the way it did. Only you would know the real answer...
But back to my original post- Architecture is dominated by men, so it isnt an unreasonable question to ask women about their experiences with harassment.
As a guy myself I'm very picky of the nature of the offices I work at, therefore I guess I ended up working mostly for and with women and there never was this kind of locker room atmosphere or unprofessionalism that could lead to sexual harassment. Was working for a small all-guys office for a bit and there the atmosphere and kind of conversations were noticeably different, lots of testosterone...but nothing weird ever happened. So no.
Nov 15, 17 8:29 am ·
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WhistleBlower
So glad that you've sought out professional environments, Randomised.
A former colleague at a previous firm was harassed by a coworker when she was a fresh grad. I was told the partners' solution was that they would never work on a project together again. This was many, many years ago...they're both principals at this firm now.
I'm sure there are some men who have experienced this but harassment in the workplace is an issue that disproportionately affects women.
men cannot get sexually harassed by women. They can be bullied, but not sexually. 99% of the time we would either like it or think it's funny (even if she were unattractive). I don't know a single man that would cry or be psychologically affected if a women masterbated in front of them like Louis CK. That's the difference. Now if a man harrased another man...that's a different matter. Personally, I've never witnessed anything first hand in the design world. I did know a girl who some douche tried to push up on when I was younger. We did very bad things to his car.
Sorry jla-x, men can be sexually harassed by women. They can also be sexually harassed by other men. Sexual harassment doesn't have to be in the form of Louis C.K.
Female Principal makes your future advancement in the firm contingent on sexual favors. You might not cry, or be psychologically damaged, but you would be affected professionally.
Nov 15, 17 6:35 pm ·
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bowling_ball
WTF. I'm sure you're trolling, jla-x. At least I really really hope so.
Nov 15, 17 7:03 pm ·
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archiwutm8
I know many men who were sexualised at a particular firm I worked at, the female manager was very vulgar and sexually harassed the younger employees under her management.
Nov 16, 17 7:06 am ·
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randomised
I don't know a single man that would cry or be psychologically affected if a women masterbated in front of them like Louis CK. I can think of quite some women I wouldn't want to masturbate in front of me and who'd leave me scarred for life.
Nov 16, 17 4:12 pm ·
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x-jla
you guys don't see the difference between say a female teacher having sex with a male student vs the opposite? Even a big grilled woman Pulling a Louis CK in front of me would make me laugh, run away laughing at worst, and leave me with a really funny
story to tell my friends.
Nov 17, 17 12:26 pm ·
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x-jla
You guys are too sensitive. Nothing personally offends me much. I know everyone is different, but personally if Rosie O'Donnell humped me to Jamaican dance club music I would likely run away and laugh. Zero psychological harm would be done. If it were a boss I would use it to blackmail them. FOH.
Nov 17, 17 12:31 pm ·
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x-jla
But I understand it's different for women...which is why my wife carries a .38 revolver. And yes, she is a minority female from NYC...She calls it her gender equalizer.
Nov 17, 17 12:36 pm ·
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Superfluous Squirrel
Its not about being offended. Its about someone who has power over you making you uncomfortable, and you would feel uncomfortable every time she asks you to do anything inappropriate or not. Would you get fired if you ran away? Would you quit if she made you watch every day? How would you explain why you left to the next firm that hired you? The whole problem is wayyyy bigger than that one moment. You would make major changes in your professional life and career because of this one interaction.
I've never seen nor heard of sexual harassment in any of the offices I've worked at. That doesn't mean it didn't/doesn't happen though.
One small office I worked at had this old guy who started worrying about needing to clean up his language when he found out we had hired a woman who was going to be sitting next to him (rather than in another room) and might overhear and take offense to some stupid thing he might say. I knew the woman, having gone to school with her, and laughed about his consternation because she was probably about just as crass with her language as he was.
In the office - once, almost. I stopped the approach mid-air.
Job site - never. Usually get treated like a princess, everyone is very respectful.
Outside of work - more than a few times.
Number of times I was told by someone either in or out of the industry that I could not be an architect solely because of my gender - maybe 4-5 times.
Number of times at work I was called a name like bitch, sweetie, or honey - about 4-5 as well.
Call the last two gender harassment, not sexual. Similar.
Nov 15, 17 11:49 am ·
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WhistleBlower
Very interesting thread! Also, I've been reading about this subject. You should check out Cooper's "6 Levels of Sexual Harassment," which lays out very clearly how to categorize sexual harassment:
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/307220
While I'm sure sexual harrassment exists at some firms, I think the far greater problem in the profession is the more subtle stuff - men speaking over women, assigning women to trivial or "clerical" tasks (the woman is always picked by the man to be the note taker), not respecting women's opinions at the design table, not promoting women to leadership positions, etc. I see this everyday, and it drives me crazy. And it's usually the guy who claims to be the most "inclusive" that is the biggest a-hole.
Nov 15, 17 11:51 am ·
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s=r*(theta)
"inclusive" many times = "we have a woman and a minority (double bonus = minority woman) who knows to stay quiet
in our majority group
Nov 15, 17 2:34 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
Women are good note takers because we can listen and write at the same time. I take it as a compliment to be a note taker. I have been asked when I was going to have babies and informed that 'is what women do, they run off and have babies' by a hiring principal. I thought that since I still got the job that it wasn't discrimination but my lawyer friends say otherwise.
Nov 15, 17 10:58 pm ·
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won and done williams
Tinbeary, I don't disagree. Just saying most men will try to pawn off note taking because: a. they are lazy b. they think they are too important c. it leaves them free to pontificate about their great ideas without the encumbrance of having to do real work. Inclusive Man will attempt to brush off any note taking responsibilities by a. making a disingenuous self-deprecating comment about his note taking skills b. paying a disingenuous compliment towards the (most often) female note taker. See it everyday - very predictable.
Nov 16, 17 9:50 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
The emperor wears no clothes.
Nov 16, 17 10:21 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
Inclusive Man, ha! ...I'm suddenly inspired to write comics.
Nov 16, 17 10:28 am ·
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thisisnotmyname
Phony "inclusiveness" is something I've seen as well. I worked at an office where they always made sure they had 1 or 2 African Americans on staff, but they always got the worst work assignments and were always the first to be laid off. One time, the firm
laid off 15% of the staff in one afternoon and the people were all black, female, or Jewish.
Nov 16, 17 4:51 pm ·
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spiketwig
The note taking is a tricky one...if you write the notes you get to decide what goes in them! It's powerful...
Nov 22, 17 11:18 am ·
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WhistleBlower
Right--so true, won and done williams. That is so pervasive. I wonder what evolves from the subtle pervasive stuff to "sexual harassment" ....
Yep, guys can be harassed.. Not in the workplace for me, but yes I have been a few times by women who probably also believe "all guys want it regardless and like it”; it’s confusing emotionally for a guy.
I'm talking being woken up from a drunken stupor in a rapey way by someone you’ve told you aren’t into them (and privately think are pretty gross), or my friend's psycho girlfriend thinking it was funny constantly messing with me knowing that I was a boy scout sort who wouldn't mess with a friend's girlfriend.. 'safe' for her. Think walking around naked, masturbating in front of me, strip teasing, constant non-stop innuendo… For the gross chick, I screamed and yelled at her; I was a close friend and knew she had massive self-esteem issues, so I feel guilty about ripping her and terminating that friendship. Especially hard since I knew through the grapevine that she continued to deteriorate.
It does mess with your head because you aren't quite sure how to deal with it emotionally; it angers you, is incredibly frustrating, and … it’s what you’ve heard should be some sort of fantasy for men and part of you drinks that lemonade too. So it becomes hard to decide if it is a ‘bad memory’ or a ‘cool story bro’. It's really weird for a guy; if I were a girl, it’d be very cut and dry how you are supposed to feel. But like a guy, I shove it down and just move on like there’s nothing wrong with it knowing there’s a lot wrong with it.
saw a really awkward moment when a co-worker grabbed/hugged another co-workers gf at a Christmas party last year. It was really weird since he was like 20 years older than the girl, who was prob 25. She was pretty clearly unhappy, both the bf and I were pretty shocked and didn't really do anything.
I wish i'd said something immediately
Nov 15, 17 3:28 pm ·
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WhistleBlower
So interesting Shellarchitect-- It's also so hard to speak up in those situations. The slimeball knew he could cop a feel in AND not get caught. According to Cooper's 6 Levels, this man is at SH Level
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/307220
Apr 23, 18 8:24 pm ·
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WhistleBlower
Level 3: Social Touching
SH Level 3: "Social Touching" is physical contact that carefully stays within the bounds of acceptable behavior. It's the hand on the shoulder, on the small of the back or around the waist. It's giving someone -- usually a female lower on the corporate ladder -- an unasked-for backrub, and saying, "I bet this feels good." It's a constant soft and creepy touch.
Example: Comedian Adam Sandler was criticized for repeatedly touching (The Crown star) Claire Foy'
s knee during an interview on the Graham Norton talk show. While Foy said she wasn't offended, she looked uncomfortable and many others were put off. For his part, Sandler said his action was only a "friendly gesture." In reality, it was Level 3 Social Touching harassment, which tends to make targets squirm.
I had to "speak" to one employee about comments / emails they were making to another employee. Very awkward in a small office, especially as they both knew each other from a previous office years earlier and the one who was being badgered had suggested that I hire the other in the first place.
All got resolved. But I did consult my sister who happens to be an HR director at a large company on proper protocol as I had never personally witnessed any of the harassment. Just need to be objective as it should get into a he said/she said kind of thing very quickly.
Nov 15, 17 3:36 pm ·
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WhistleBlower
Great Whistler that you nipped this behavior in the bud!
once i had extended eye contact with a famous female architect and felt like i was being harassed sexually. Here’s my question though: should different groups within society have different standards for what constitutes sexual harassment? For example, I would hold kindergarten teachers to higher standard then oil executives.
Nov 16, 17 9:18 pm ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
WTF r u talkin bout, Willis?
Nov 16, 17 9:54 pm ·
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Koww
Talkin bout sex and Xanax yo
Nov 16, 17 10:11 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
Where would architects fall in the spectrum from kindergarten teacher to oil exec?
Nov 16, 17 10:38 pm ·
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Koww
I feel it boils down to whether a thin mustache is acceptable. The more acceptable, the more immoral the occupation and therefore for women in that field, the less they should be shocked at unwanted sexual advances
Nov 17, 17 12:27 am ·
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x-jla
The thin mustache is definitely a sign of a creep, but if you see someone with thick glasses and a 70s cop mustache you better hide yo kids.
A friend of mine and I were talking about our favorite recess games when we were in grade school and “smear the ____” came up as the best. We laughed about how it was probably totally banned on all levels. Tackling, fighting, playing with a ball (banned from most school districts in the coastal states) and then of course the name of it. Mentioning it would probably make teachers scream. We’re only 30 but we felt like grandpas just talking about how a game we played at recess would probably make a national media outrage if it happened today. Everyone calm the fuck down.
Nov 17, 17 3:05 pm ·
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s=r*(theta)
America's struggle with finding a balance; from the creation of the country til the mid 70's it was extreme bigotry. From mid 70's til new millennium its extreme sensitivity.
No joke, about 3 months ago hr, gave us mandatory lecture on diversity, sex harassment, & racism in workplace.
Nov 17, 17 3:21 pm ·
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archi_dude
I mean that’s not that big of a deal but I feel like when you move to “we need to have a HR lecture on combating cissexist thoughts and heterosexual patriarchy” it’s like ooooookay how far down the rabbit hole are we going?
Nov 17, 17 3:36 pm ·
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geezertect
Those seminars are not really intended to educate you, but rather to cover the company's ass in the event of a lawsuit alleging a hostile work environment.
Are any of these harrassment? I've been asked to: carry luggage, clean the bathroom, wash a car, do dirty dishes, be a chaufeur (drive to the job site but had to stay in the car.) I was pregnant when I was asked to carry luggage. You can't make this shit up.
Nov 18, 17 11:37 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
I refused to do the first three.
Nov 18, 17 11:38 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
I do dishes but not the bosses.
Nov 18, 17 12:25 pm ·
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randomised
I am being constantly asked to carry stuff, move stuff around or help with repositioning stuff. I've been asked to do dishes, make coffee, prepare lunch, do grocery shopping, take notes, rearrange the library, build up bookshelves, and arrange, draw and install the office lighting system. Never been asked to wash a car (everyone has bicycles) or be a chauffeur (no license). Don't know if any of it counts as harassment though, or if it is because of my gender, size or beard, male 6ft6, 230lbs, it was never sexual but I feel that people try to take advantage of my body while I'm paid for my mind. It was mostly annoying and bosses think they can ask/demand anything because they pay your salary. I do find it inappropriate and if I did such an extracurricular activity, I always took my time but never stayed late to catch up on missed work, the stuff I was actually paid to do.
Nov 18, 17 4:36 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
I had to all those things too except the lighting. Had to weed the office yard. The car washing and bathroom cleaning were not on company time. I did wash the car but just an automatic and I paid for it myself.
Nov 18, 17 7:17 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
In the case of the car washing, bathroom cleaning and luggage carrying it was a partner of mine.
Nov 18, 17 7:20 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
I left the partnership. This feels cathartic!
Nov 18, 17 7:22 pm ·
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randomised
Wow, great partner...
Nov 18, 17 9:38 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
Tall horse.
Nov 18, 17 10:20 pm ·
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WhistleBlower
Tintt--I just spoke with an HR person who explained things to me: "Carry luggage, clean the bathroom, wash a car, do dirty dishes, be a chaufeur (drive to the job site but had to stay in the car.) I was pregnant when I was asked to carry luggage. You can't make this shit up." I imagine that you also felt like only women were asked to do this, right? Therefore, most of the behaviors would be simply "men behaving badly" and jerks. It's not illegal, like sexual harassment, but it's shitty and inconsiderate behavior nonetheless. are you still at the office?
And this one: colleague threatens suicide to dish work on to me. Happened a few times. You guys would tell me if I have a use me sign taped to my back. Nice girls get used.
Nov 18, 17 11:46 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
Don't 'work' with 'friends'
Nov 18, 17 12:31 pm ·
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curtkram
like, "update the site plan or i'll kill myself?" does that work, because i would try it if it works.
Nov 18, 17 1:48 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
I can't talk about. I'm already in trouble.
Nov 18, 17 2:21 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
If I have a nervous breakdown, who will do the site plan?
Nov 18, 17 2:22 pm ·
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curtkram
maybe you have to threaten suicide for BIM to work? What if you harass your BIM? that could create a toxic environment.
Nov 18, 17 4:35 pm ·
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randomised
Should have let them follow through with the threat or report them.
surprised about charlie rose; no surprise when it catch's up to 45, but im sure he is concern.
Suppose I should update of my resume with language that compliment my inclusivity and self control skill set and ability ; reminds me of my job hunting days, I would just watch the obituaries looking for "Local project architect leaves behind...", now Its watching CNN and local news waiting for a "project architect is accused of...." pretty sure job openings all around in days to come at this rate! yaaaaaay me!!!
I've not experienced any sexual harassment, but subtle gender stuff, yes. The worst part about it, is that you're never quite sure if it's happening or if you're just being paranoid. Examples:
- Older men in the office being extra nice because they're scared of hurting my feelings (are they really just super into helping you or are they seeing you as their daughter who needs protection?)
- Older men in the office being extra cranky because they don't think a young woman could possibly know about (insert technical thing here) - or are they just cranky old guys?
- Being ignored on the job site when your male boss is also there (are they talking to him because he's the highest level person there or because they want to talk to a dude?)
- Being told by your (female) department head that you need to project a more friendly positive demeanor and that people think you look mad all the time.
- Being told by your (female) department head that you should consider dressing more formally (for reference guys here wear jeans + plaid collared shirts as a standard uniform - we are not that fancy. But I guess women have to be fancier?)
- Somehow always being on the wrong side of either "not confident" enough or "overstepping"
I could go on..
Nov 22, 17 11:31 am ·
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geezertect
The older guys are BOTH cranky and too nice? Yes, that does sound a little paranoid. As for being ignored on the site in favor of a more senior manager, do you really think that's not just how the world works. People always want to talk to the more experienced decision maker. If you are treated rudely, that is of course another matter. It's hard to know without being there ourselves.
Nov 22, 17 6:20 pm ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
geezer, your response, is actually part of the problem.
Nov 22, 17 11:12 pm ·
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geezertect
b3: which part of what I said is "part of the problem"? Only the poster knows for sure what exactly happened to her. Excessive patronizing is a problem, for sure. So is nastiness. I k
Nov 23, 17 9:49 am ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
geezer, first, you're not a woman. second, in both instances of cranks, and overtly nice, patronizing men, the same thing is at play; lack of respect. Not "paranoia", which is the gaslighting of all gaslighting techniques. Lastly, as an architect, and one that has managed female subordinates, I felt it was my responsibility to make sure, especially on a job site, or in front of people more senior than I, that women were not ignored. Also, I can imagine that if the women was the PA/PM on the project, they would many times know more about the project than the PIC. Talk about why this profession sucks, that's it in a nutshell.
Nov 23, 17 4:26 pm ·
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spiketwig
All these responses are exactly why this stuff is so crazy making. I mean, maybe there's been legit reasons for all of it. Maybe.
I doubt it's been all one or the other. For the record on site, I was the PA and had not only done all the drawings but had also done 95% the coordination/email/communication - pretty much all my boss (PM) had done was send the contracts when we kicked off the project.
Nov 23, 17 11:45 pm ·
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WhistleBlower
Hey spiketwig, thanks for your post, i totally agree it's the subtle stuff. Firstly, that feeling on not being sure if it's you or them--that's why gaslighting is SO pervasive....
" Somehow always being on the wrong side of either "not confident" enough or "overstepping" " Yep, Double-bind galore!
here are some of the highlights from my 30 year career...
male coworker jams his tongue into my mouth while we were speaking about a project. persistently asked me out until i just quit rather than continue to deal with a guy who can't take no for an answer.
repeat that scenario a few more times at different firms with different male coworkers over the years.
boss waited until we were the last two people to leave, calls me over to his desk where he is jerking himself off. years later, i had heard that he had done that to most of the female employees.
last job before i started my own gig, old guy wouldn't stop rubbing his leg up against mine and asking me out. he only stopped when he figured out that i made a much higher salary than he did.
had a contractor take a roll of plans that i prepared and affixed my stamp to, and slap my ass with them...
each of these instances impacted my ability to earn a living for myself.
Nov 22, 17 11:05 pm ·
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WhistleBlower
Oh my gosh, that's awful Urbanity....Apparently SH offenders don't have 1 target but many over time.... so these stories are more familiar than not...Do you now if this guy has ever gotten in trouble for his actions? Is it...Richard Meier? What would be the chances!?
This thread was about sexual harrassment at work. If we are breaking the silence on other abuses, I was sexually abused by a teacher and two family members from age 5-19. Before now, I had only told 3 people. Nobody wants to hear about it.
Nov 24, 17 1:22 am ·
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archietechie
Devolving more into a pity party but oh well, I'll just be here with my popcorn.
Nov 24, 17 1:59 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
Thanks.
Nov 24, 17 2:00 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
I have no idea what you are talking about Antwoine.
Nov 24, 17 11:27 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
You lost me after sorry.
Nov 24, 17 1:21 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
And I see I spelled harassment wrong.
Nov 24, 17 1:22 pm ·
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randomised
Holy shit, that's horrible (not the spelling mistake). I hope that justice was done, if even possible, and that you were able to somehow move past it, what's wrong with people?
Rick, you won't even move to Portland to get a job, but yet you'll move to the outer edges of the solar system because you're afraid some woman at some job you don't have will start accusing you of sexually harassing her just because you're heterosexual?
Nov 25, 17 11:10 am ·
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x-jla
Rick, you won't make it past Uranus.
Nov 25, 17 11:26 am ·
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x-jla
Oh, I thought you were really moving there. My bad.
You expect me to believe that a guy who is 40-50 years old, lives in his parents basement, doesnt have a job, talks incessantly about how smart he is, and does want to be told what to do- somehow, SOMEHOW- got close enough to a real live woman that he thinks he might be sued for harrassment?!
Rick, I've known two people without degrees. They are better paid and hold higher positions purely because instead of school they spent 5 years working and gaining experience. They add the projects they've worked on to their portfolio and immediately principals are like "oh shit, yeah, we'll waive the degree requirement."
Nov 26, 17 11:42 am ·
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archi_dude
One is in his late twenties the other is close to 40. Both are licensed in CA.
There are no pretty women in architecture so .... no, I haven't had the opportunity to sexually harass anyone. But I almost banged a civil engineer about 25 years ago. Two civil engineers actually. Couldn't decide which one to go after so they kind of canceled each other out. Good times.
Nov 28, 17 2:03 pm ·
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tduds
No.
Nov 28, 17 3:47 pm ·
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randomised
What do you mean by "Even Neri Oxman etc." What's with the even?
What criteria are you asking for a judgement of better? Better objectification of women? Better digital trail for the lawyers who might one day represent Neri Oxman in a harassment suit against you? Please be more specific.
Never heard of Neri Oxman before. But I guess we're in the minority here. Comments are hidden, obviously too offensive for the snowflakes who are the majority on this forum. At least we can rest comfortably with the preconceived notion that most architects are pussies with no sense of humor.
used to work at a small place with a bunch of older gentlemen. Whenever the boss man left the office the porn videos came on everyone’s monitors... these guys were all married and beaten dogs. I was a fresh grad, and even as a male I felt very uncomfortable about it. I quit after 2 months at that position
Nov 28, 17 8:54 pm ·
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citizen
Are you saying that copy of Fountain Head was not about Howard Roark?
Does the opposite also work? Does poor ironing skills drive men away?
Nov 29, 17 11:34 am ·
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Non Sequitur
I do all my own ironing... there is no way I'll put the life of my shirts in the hands of my wife. She does love to vacuum tho
Nov 29, 17 11:44 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
I have terrible skills throughout the laundry process.
Nov 29, 17 12:09 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
Cats never get it.
Nov 29, 17 1:00 pm ·
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JLC-1
No ironing since 2008
Nov 29, 17 3:21 pm ·
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On the fence
No poor ironing skills does not but poor cooking skills will. The little woman has a way better chance by saying "I don't cook" instead of actually cooking burnt nasty meals for her man.
I wish there was a forum like rate my professor but for architects/designers with a scale of 'harassability' or something...Anybody interested in starting a list of people/firms where incidents have happened so as to help each other avoid in the future? Google doc or something I guess could work
Nov 29, 17 2:58 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Did you just create an account to post this?
Nov 29, 17 3:56 pm ·
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lexijowhite
I'm often reading different blog posts in the Forum, but never have commented. I guess I thought it was time to become more engaged on this platform. Why do you ask?
Nov 29, 17 4:13 pm ·
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geezertect
Unverifiable accusations from anonymous posters on a website is a horrible idea.
Nov 29, 17 4:28 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Bingo, geezer.
Nov 29, 17 4:31 pm ·
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lexijowhite
ok i hear you... so what kind of outlet would be good to share verifiable information on. do either of you know of one already?
Glassdoor ... their review policy states "general discussions of workplace misconduct are allowed, including most discussions of illegal activities, discrimination, and sexual harassment," but I don't think they'll let you name names if that's what you're aiming for.
Nov 29, 17 5:14 pm ·
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lexijowhite
Didn't know about that option. Thanks Everyday Architect. I'm interested in trying to help each other avoid undesirable circumstances. Nothing more to it than that.
Nov 29, 17 5:24 pm ·
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WhistleBlower
puppiesmakemehappy I'll team up with you!
Apr 23, 18 8:37 pm ·
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WhistleBlower
I hope you're still on Archinect!!
Apr 23, 18 8:38 pm ·
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WhistleBlower
Kittiesmakemehappy: we have a lot in common. Let's tag team and get a doc together so we
Apr 24, 18 11:47 am ·
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WhistleBlower
Can start collecting data about firms. Or surely someone knows some folks doing thi
s work?
Apr 24, 18 11:50 am ·
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Non Sequitur
Puppies only existed here for this brief discussion.
Man this one, along with Franken are still kinda bothering me. internally I'm trying to reconcile the fact that good people sometimes do bad things. Is it a zero sum game? how do you weigh these kinds of issues against a life time of positive work or other accomplishments? I was thinking about Thomas Jefferson, you know the rapist on our $2 dollar bill.
Nov 30, 17 6:52 pm ·
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JeromeS
Maybe Garrison is right. Maybe there is an air of McCarthy-ism to what’s happening.
Nov 30, 17 9:30 pm ·
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JeromeS
I read his statement as an F-U, in a way only Garrison can say it
Nov 30, 17 9:31 pm ·
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won and done williams
Not to get too political here, but how long has the left cast a blind eye towards Bill Clinton? It's a lot harder when it's one of your own, I guess.
Yup. Seen it in enough places (and interns ending up as partners) to know it's not rare. Also seen it go the other way, bullying, and racial prejudice (making certain demographics work longer and speaking to them poorly). Worst one I saw was HR harassing staff, doling out benefits to those that would obey (including puchasing after work drinks, dinner, etc); benefits being spa treatments, and looking other way on company card expenditures and time off.
I was once propositioned by a female client. It made the relationship finishing the project very awkward as we had a lot of meetings with her husband too. I'm not sure he would have cared. I'm not sure I would call it harassment because it was a one time thing, just an unwanted advance, and not a coworker, so the situation ended fairly quickly.
Other than that I have not seen what I would call harassment.
But the sexism in this industry is very real. I have seen many of the things woman have posted about being judged or relegated to tasks based on their gender. I had a female principle at a firm for quite a while and though I was her subordinate any number of people from clients to contractors and reps would speak to me first presumably only because I was a man.
I am extremely worried that while we think we are dealing with this harassment issue right now, we are actually setting ourselves way back. How many stupid men (as evidenced by this thread) are going to avoid talking to a woman because they are worried that a misstep could cause a problem? Is it safer to talk to the man? does that undermine women's ability to claim authority?
I worry less about harassment of my daughters because I think they have a strong constitution and the ability to stand up and say NO or speak out when something bad happens. But the systemic misogynistic views that prevent opportunities being available to them in the first place is an issue I do not yet have an answer to. I think we just desperately need gender equality at the top. Like some sort of affirmative action plan but for women.
I'm sure that comment is going to see some haters. I'm not attacking men. Don't conflate the issue with your masculinity.
Nov 30, 17 5:30 pm ·
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JonathanLivingston
It's a double edged sword. A women can't act without reinforcing the stereo type. That's my fear. All of this action, however correct it may be is being blown out of proportion to the extent that it is having some really negative consequences.
"All of this action, however correct it may be is being blown out of proportion to the extent that it is having some really negative consequences."
What are those really negative consequences? Just keeping it in your pants is always an option...
Dec 1, 17 9:00 am ·
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won and done williams
I find it uncomfortable when men are having a conversation about what's best for women, even if well intentioned. I know ya'll are trying to be sympathetic, but somehow it just comes off as re-enforcing the schism you are trying to break down.
Dec 1, 17 9:23 am ·
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JonathanLivingston
@ Won, Yeah I know what you mean, but a conversation has to happen. There are women on this thread who are contributing to the conversation. @Randomised the negative consequence is you are seeing men worried about false accusations. Mainly because of the hype and sensationalism given to these claims. the vitriol with which some are defending and ostracizing offenders. There will most certainly be both men and women who are hesitant to engage each other professionally because of perceived risk. This is the idea of the "Pence Rule" It has nothing to do with protecting women and everything to do with protecting Mike Pence. It seems horrible to me that could be the outcome for some people, because now rather than potentially having to deal with a shitty harassment or inappropriate situation women are not even in the room. Opportunities are denied. Women are seen as a burden.
Dec 1, 17 2:19 pm ·
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x-jla
I've never harassed a women in my life. It's actually really easy to not harass women. This is not "a conversation we need to have" as most people already know appropriate from inappropriate. This is a conversation some assholes need to hear. Big difference.
Dec 1, 17 6:59 pm ·
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x-jla
We also need to stop pretending that we don't notice attractive women. It's bullshit. It's tantamount to "colorblindness". People need to be mature enough to think "wow she is beautiful", and still show respect. Fucking thought police and these pc hipster assholes are the new puritans. And women need to stop playing the sex card. Some women are dumb and some are assholes just as some men are. Equality means that I should be able to call a women a moron as I can call a man one. Or disagree with their policy or idea without automatically being called a sexist.
Dec 1, 17 7:05 pm ·
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JonathanLivingston
"I've never harassed a women in my life. It's actually really easy to not harass women. This is not a conversation we need to have ." We are not the ones who define what is harassment. That is for the victim to decide.
Dec 1, 17 7:12 pm ·
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JonathanLivingston
You should read that article that Tduds posted a few comments down. You and I are both one of the "good guys" just like Franken, Keilor, and Clinton. Good people sometimes do shitty things. Often without the knowledge what they are doing is shitty.
Dec 1, 17 7:15 pm ·
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x-jla
Terrible article pushing guilty until proven innocent bs. Sexual assault and harassment are very obvious to anyone with common sense. Main problem is that now you have wolves like Matt lauer wearing a pc sheep suit. Harder to know upfront
who we are dealing with.
Dec 1, 17 8:21 pm ·
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randomised
"@Randomised the negative consequence is you are seeing men worried about false accusations. Mainly because of the hype and sensationalism given to these claims."
Dec 2, 17 3:21 am ·
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randomised
I don't see any innocent men worried about false accusations. All I see is guilty men worried about being called out next.
So he is. Molest some kids and commit financial fraud and you get 13 months. I think it is a fine example of how we treat convicted sex offenders of high power. It is easy to see how some prefer to remain silent.
Dec 1, 17 12:49 pm ·
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s=r*(theta)
45's days are numbered; only a matter of time before melania rolls on him
We should send some decoys with hidden cameras into these offices. Call John Stossel.
Apr 24, 18 12:48 pm ·
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citizen
So, the Stoss in a blond wig, fishnets, and heels that take him up to 6 foot 6? I'm aroused already! That hairbrush he calls a mustache will need a LOT of foundation to hide, though ;o]
Apr 24, 18 1:24 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
So a big hairy blonde in fishnets is what gets you going. Good to know. Better make those fishnets heavy duty kind...
Apr 24, 18 1:49 pm ·
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citizen
Yes, actual nets used for fishing. I don't know what it is about them...
It can be a problem if the firm leadership doesn't have well defined, written guidelines for such things. That way everyone is aware of what is and isn't acceptable. This can vary from office to office.
For example:
One office I worked an electrician was installing some light fixtures in our conference room A female staff member told the electrician that 'his ass was a work of art' A partner overheard another staff member telling someone what she had heard the female staff member say. The partner confirmed with the electrician what was said and the female staff member was imminently terminated.
In another office a female co worker was being being told she had nice breasts by a mechanical contractor who comes by the office frequently. She informed the elder partner of the firm and he told her not to wear clothing that emphasized her breasts.
Sep 12, 19 2:14 pm ·
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Sexual harrassment
Has anyone experienced this in an architecture office setting? I guess its fashionable to to blame celebrities these days; wanted to hear about some real cases...just curious...
Only if you are a “licensed residential designer”
david- You strike me as someone who is very active online and I wouldnt be surprised if some cookie in your browser caught onto some funny internet activity... they have these algorithms these days that try to sell you stuff you are interested in...
To your question I say- Its only luck if there was no reason for this event to play out the way it did. Only you would know the real answer...
But back to my original post- Architecture is dominated by men, so it isnt an unreasonable question to ask women about their experiences with harassment.
Sexism, sure. Vulgarity, yep.
Haven't witnessed anything I would consider harassment, though.
As a guy myself I'm very picky of the nature of the offices I work at, therefore I guess I ended up working mostly for and with women and there never was this kind of locker room atmosphere or unprofessionalism that could lead to sexual harassment. Was working for a small all-guys office for a bit and there the atmosphere and kind of conversations were noticeably different, lots of testosterone...but nothing weird ever happened. So no.
So glad that you've sought out professional environments, Randomised.
Me too!
A former colleague at a previous firm was harassed by a coworker when she was a fresh grad. I was told the partners' solution was that they would never work on a project together again. This was many, many years ago...they're both principals at this firm now.
I'm sure there are some men who have experienced this but harassment in the workplace is an issue that disproportionately affects women.
men cannot get sexually harassed by women. They can be bullied, but not sexually. 99% of the time we would either like it or think it's funny (even if she were unattractive). I don't know a single man that would cry or be psychologically affected if a women masterbated in front of them like Louis CK. That's the difference. Now if a man harrased another man...that's a different matter. Personally, I've never witnessed anything first hand in the design world. I did know a girl who some douche tried to push up on when I was younger. We did very bad things to his car.
Sorry jla-x, men can be sexually harassed by women. They can also be sexually harassed by other men. Sexual harassment doesn't have to be in the form of Louis C.K.
^ +++
Female Principal makes your future advancement in the firm contingent on sexual favors. You might not cry, or be psychologically damaged, but you would be affected professionally.
WTF. I'm sure you're trolling, jla-x. At least I really really hope so.
I know many men who were sexualised at a particular firm I worked at, the female manager was very vulgar and sexually harassed the younger employees under her management.
you guys don't see the difference between say a female teacher having sex with a male student vs the opposite? Even a big grilled woman Pulling a Louis CK in front of me would make me laugh, run away laughing at worst, and leave me with a really funny
story to tell my friends.
You guys are too sensitive. Nothing personally offends me much. I know everyone is different, but personally if Rosie O'Donnell humped me to Jamaican dance club music I would likely run away and laugh. Zero psychological harm would be done. If it were a boss I would use it to blackmail them. FOH.
But I understand it's different for women...which is why my wife carries a .38 revolver. And yes, she is a minority female from NYC...She calls it her gender equalizer.
Its not about being offended. Its about someone who has power over you making you uncomfortable, and you would feel uncomfortable every time she asks you to do anything inappropriate or not. Would you get fired if you ran away? Would you quit if she made you watch every day? How would you explain why you left to the next firm that hired you? The whole problem is wayyyy bigger than that one moment. You would make major changes in your professional life and career because of this one interaction.
I've never seen nor heard of sexual harassment in any of the offices I've worked at. That doesn't mean it didn't/doesn't happen though.
One small office I worked at had this old guy who started worrying about needing to clean up his language when he found out we had hired a woman who was going to be sitting next to him (rather than in another room) and might overhear and take offense to some stupid thing he might say. I knew the woman, having gone to school with her, and laughed about his consternation because she was probably about just as crass with her language as he was.
In the office - once, almost. I stopped the approach mid-air.
Job site - never. Usually get treated like a princess, everyone is very respectful.
Outside of work - more than a few times.
Number of times I was told by someone either in or out of the industry that I could not be an architect solely because of my gender - maybe 4-5 times.
Number of times at work I was called a name like bitch, sweetie, or honey - about 4-5 as well.
Call the last two gender harassment, not sexual. Similar.
Very interesting thread! Also, I've been reading about this subject. You should check out Cooper's "6 Levels of Sexual Harassment," which lays out very clearly how to categorize sexual harassment: https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/307220
While I'm sure sexual harrassment exists at some firms, I think the far greater problem in the profession is the more subtle stuff - men speaking over women, assigning women to trivial or "clerical" tasks (the woman is always picked by the man to be the note taker), not respecting women's opinions at the design table, not promoting women to leadership positions, etc. I see this everyday, and it drives me crazy. And it's usually the guy who claims to be the most "inclusive" that is the biggest a-hole.
"inclusive" many times = "we have a woman and a minority (double bonus = minority woman) who knows to stay quiet in our majority group
Women are good note takers because we can listen and write at the same time. I take it as a compliment to be a note taker. I have been asked when I was going to have babies and informed that 'is what women do, they run off and have babies' by a hiring principal. I thought that since I still got the job that it wasn't discrimination but my lawyer friends say otherwise.
Tinbeary, I don't disagree. Just saying most men will try to pawn off note taking because: a. they are lazy b. they think they are too important c. it leaves them free to pontificate about their great ideas without the encumbrance of having to do real work. Inclusive Man will attempt to brush off any note taking responsibilities by a. making a disingenuous self-deprecating comment about his note taking skills b. paying a disingenuous compliment towards the (most often) female note taker. See it everyday - very predictable.
The emperor wears no clothes.
Inclusive Man, ha! ...I'm suddenly inspired to write comics.
Phony "inclusiveness" is something I've seen as well. I worked at an office where they always made sure they had 1 or 2 African Americans on staff, but they always got the worst work assignments and were always the first to be laid off. One time, the firm laid off 15% of the staff in one afternoon and the people were all black, female, or Jewish.
The note taking is a tricky one...if you write the notes you get to decide what goes in them! It's powerful...
Right--so true, won and done williams. That is so pervasive. I wonder what evolves from the subtle pervasive stuff to "sexual harassment" ....
my wife feels she's been discriminated all her life, nobody has ever sexually harassed her. me too.
we've never been "in".
Yeah, I know many who've experienced gender discrimination, but less have experienced outright sexual harassment...
Yep, guys can be harassed.. Not in the workplace for me, but yes I have been a few times by women who probably also believe "all guys want it regardless and like it”; it’s confusing emotionally for a guy.
I'm talking being woken up from a drunken stupor in a rapey way by someone you’ve told you aren’t into them (and privately think are pretty gross), or my friend's psycho girlfriend thinking it was funny constantly messing with me knowing that I was a boy scout sort who wouldn't mess with a friend's girlfriend.. 'safe' for her. Think walking around naked, masturbating in front of me, strip teasing, constant non-stop innuendo… For the gross chick, I screamed and yelled at her; I was a close friend and knew she had massive self-esteem issues, so I feel guilty about ripping her and terminating that friendship. Especially hard since I knew through the grapevine that she continued to deteriorate.
It does mess with your head because you aren't quite sure how to deal with it emotionally; it angers you, is incredibly frustrating, and … it’s what you’ve heard should be some sort of fantasy for men and part of you drinks that lemonade too. So it becomes hard to decide if it is a ‘bad memory’ or a ‘cool story bro’. It's really weird for a guy; if I were a girl, it’d be very cut and dry how you are supposed to feel. But like a guy, I shove it down and just move on like there’s nothing wrong with it knowing there’s a lot wrong with it.
saw a really awkward moment when a co-worker grabbed/hugged another co-workers gf at a Christmas party last year. It was really weird since he was like 20 years older than the girl, who was prob 25. She was pretty clearly unhappy, both the bf and I were pretty shocked and didn't really do anything.
I wish i'd said something immediately
So interesting Shellarchitect-- It's also so hard to speak up in those situations. The slimeball knew he could cop a feel in AND not get caught. According to Cooper's 6 Levels, this man is at SH Level https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/307220
Level 3: Social Touching SH Level 3: "Social Touching" is physical contact that carefully stays within the bounds of acceptable behavior. It's the hand on the shoulder, on the small of the back or around the waist. It's giving someone -- usually a female lower on the corporate ladder -- an unasked-for backrub, and saying, "I bet this feels good." It's a constant soft and creepy touch. Example: Comedian Adam Sandler was criticized for repeatedly touching (The Crown star) Claire Foy' s knee during an interview on the Graham Norton talk show. While Foy said she wasn't offended, she looked uncomfortable and many others were put off. For his part, Sandler said his action was only a "friendly gesture." In reality, it was Level 3 Social Touching harassment, which tends to make targets squirm.
I had to "speak" to one employee about comments / emails they were making to another employee. Very awkward in a small office, especially as they both knew each other from a previous office years earlier and the one who was being badgered had suggested that I hire the other in the first place.
All got resolved. But I did consult my sister who happens to be an HR director at a large company on proper protocol as I had never personally witnessed any of the harassment. Just need to be objective as it should get into a he said/she said kind of thing very quickly.
Great Whistler that you nipped this behavior in the bud!
once i had extended eye contact with a famous female architect and felt like i was being harassed sexually. Here’s my question though: should different groups within society have different standards for what constitutes sexual harassment? For example, I would hold kindergarten teachers to higher standard then oil executives.
WTF r u talkin bout, Willis?
Talkin bout sex and Xanax yo
Where would architects fall in the spectrum from kindergarten teacher to oil exec?
I feel it boils down to whether a thin mustache is acceptable. The more acceptable, the more immoral the occupation and therefore for women in that field, the less they should be shocked at unwanted sexual advances
The thin mustache is definitely a sign of a creep, but if you see someone with thick glasses and a 70s cop mustache you better hide yo kids.
I was harrassed everyday at recess in sixth grade however.
What kind of vaginosis is required to "smell like sex"
A friend of mine and I were talking about our favorite recess games when we were in grade school and “smear the ____” came up as the best. We laughed about how it was probably totally banned on all levels. Tackling, fighting, playing with a ball (banned from most school districts in the coastal states) and then of course the name of it. Mentioning it would probably make teachers scream. We’re only 30 but we felt like grandpas just talking about how a game we played at recess would probably make a national media outrage if it happened today. Everyone calm the fuck down.
America's struggle with finding a balance; from the creation of the country til the mid 70's it was extreme bigotry. From mid 70's til new millennium its extreme sensitivity. No joke, about 3 months ago hr, gave us mandatory lecture on diversity, sex harassment, & racism in workplace.
I mean that’s not that big of a deal but I feel like when you move to “we need to have a HR lecture on combating cissexist thoughts and heterosexual patriarchy” it’s like ooooookay how far down the rabbit hole are we going?
Those seminars are not really intended to educate you, but rather to cover the company's ass in the event of a lawsuit alleging a hostile work environment.
Are any of these harrassment? I've been asked to: carry luggage, clean the bathroom, wash a car, do dirty dishes, be a chaufeur (drive to the job site but had to stay in the car.) I was pregnant when I was asked to carry luggage. You can't make this shit up.
I refused to do the first three.
I do dishes but not the bosses.
I am being constantly asked to carry stuff, move stuff around or help with repositioning stuff. I've been asked to do dishes, make coffee, prepare lunch, do grocery shopping, take notes, rearrange the library, build up bookshelves, and arrange, draw and install the office lighting system. Never been asked to wash a car (everyone has bicycles) or be a chauffeur (no license). Don't know if any of it counts as harassment though, or if it is because of my gender, size or beard, male 6ft6, 230lbs, it was never sexual but I feel that people try to take advantage of my body while I'm paid for my mind. It was mostly annoying and bosses think they can ask/demand anything because they pay your salary. I do find it inappropriate and if I did such an extracurricular activity, I always took my time but never stayed late to catch up on missed work, the stuff I was actually paid to do.
I had to all those things too except the lighting. Had to weed the office yard. The car washing and bathroom cleaning were not on company time. I did wash the car but just an automatic and I paid for it myself.
In the case of the car washing, bathroom cleaning and luggage carrying it was a partner of mine.
I left the partnership. This feels cathartic!
Wow, great partner...
Tall horse.
Tintt--I just spoke with an HR person who explained things to me: "Carry luggage, clean the bathroom, wash a car, do dirty dishes, be a chaufeur (drive to the job site but had to stay in the car.) I was pregnant when I was asked to carry luggage. You can't make this shit up." I imagine that you also felt like only women were asked to do this, right? Therefore, most of the behaviors would be simply "men behaving badly" and jerks. It's not illegal, like sexual harassment, but it's shitty and inconsiderate behavior nonetheless. are you still at the office?
And this one: colleague threatens suicide to dish work on to me. Happened a few times. You guys would tell me if I have a use me sign taped to my back. Nice girls get used.
Don't 'work' with 'friends'
like, "update the site plan or i'll kill myself?" does that work, because i would try it if it works.
I can't talk about. I'm already in trouble.
If I have a nervous breakdown, who will do the site plan?
maybe you have to threaten suicide for BIM to work? What if you harass your BIM? that could create a toxic environment.
Should have let them follow through with the threat or report them.
Does BIM come with antidepressants?
Lorazepam!
Don't pat your BIM on the bum.
Survey of top architecture firms reveals "quite shocking" lack of gender diversity at senior levels https://www.dezeen.com/2017/11...
surprised about charlie rose; no surprise when it catch's up to 45, but im sure he is concern.
Suppose I should update of my resume with language that compliment my inclusivity and self control skill set and ability ; reminds me of my job hunting days, I would just watch the obituaries looking for "Local project architect leaves behind...", now Its watching CNN and local news waiting for a "project architect is accused of...." pretty sure job openings all around in days to come at this rate! yaaaaaay me!!!
I've not experienced any sexual harassment, but subtle gender stuff, yes. The worst part about it, is that you're never quite sure if it's happening or if you're just being paranoid. Examples:
- Older men in the office being extra nice because they're scared of hurting my feelings (are they really just super into helping you or are they seeing you as their daughter who needs protection?)
- Older men in the office being extra cranky because they don't think a young woman could possibly know about (insert technical thing here) - or are they just cranky old guys?
- Being ignored on the job site when your male boss is also there (are they talking to him because he's the highest level person there or because they want to talk to a dude?)
- Being told by your (female) department head that you need to project a more friendly positive demeanor and that people think you look mad all the time.
- Being told by your (female) department head that you should consider dressing more formally (for reference guys here wear jeans + plaid collared shirts as a standard uniform - we are not that fancy. But I guess women have to be fancier?)
- Somehow always being on the wrong side of either "not confident" enough or "overstepping"
I could go on..
The older guys are BOTH cranky and too nice? Yes, that does sound a little paranoid. As for being ignored on the site in favor of a more senior manager, do you really think that's not just how the world works. People always want to talk to the more experienced decision maker. If you are treated rudely, that is of course another matter. It's hard to know without being there ourselves.
geezer, your response, is actually part of the problem.
b3: which part of what I said is "part of the problem"? Only the poster knows for sure what exactly happened to her. Excessive patronizing is a problem, for sure. So is nastiness. I k
geezer, first, you're not a woman. second, in both instances of cranks, and overtly nice, patronizing men, the same thing is at play; lack of respect. Not "paranoia", which is the gaslighting of all gaslighting techniques. Lastly, as an architect, and one that has managed female subordinates, I felt it was my responsibility to make sure, especially on a job site, or in front of people more senior than I, that women were not ignored. Also, I can imagine that if the women was the PA/PM on the project, they would many times know more about the project than the PIC. Talk about why this profession sucks, that's it in a nutshell.
All these responses are exactly why this stuff is so crazy making. I mean, maybe there's been legit reasons for all of it. Maybe.
I doubt it's been all one or the other. For the record on site, I was the PA and had not only done all the drawings but had also done 95% the coordination/email/communication - pretty much all my boss (PM) had done was send the contracts when we kicked off the project.
Hey spiketwig, thanks for your post, i totally agree it's the subtle stuff. Firstly, that feeling on not being sure if it's you or them--that's why gaslighting is SO pervasive.... " Somehow always being on the wrong side of either "not confident" enough or "overstepping" " Yep, Double-bind galore!
here are some of the highlights from my 30 year career...
male coworker jams his tongue into my mouth while we were speaking about a project. persistently asked me out until i just quit rather than continue to deal with a guy who can't take no for an answer.
repeat that scenario a few more times at different firms with different male coworkers over the years.
boss waited until we were the last two people to leave, calls me over to his desk where he is jerking himself off. years later, i had heard that he had done that to most of the female employees.
last job before i started my own gig, old guy wouldn't stop rubbing his leg up against mine and asking me out. he only stopped when he figured out that i made a much higher salary than he did.
had a contractor take a roll of plans that i prepared and affixed my stamp to, and slap my ass with them...
each of these instances impacted my ability to earn a living for myself.
Oh my gosh, that's awful Urbanity....Apparently SH offenders don't have 1 target but many over time.... so these stories are more familiar than not...Do you now if this guy has ever gotten in trouble for his actions? Is it...Richard Meier? What would be the chances!?
This thread was about sexual harrassment at work. If we are breaking the silence on other abuses, I was sexually abused by a teacher and two family members from age 5-19. Before now, I had only told 3 people. Nobody wants to hear about it.
Devolving more into a pity party but oh well, I'll just be here with my popcorn.
Thanks.
I have no idea what you are talking about Antwoine.
You lost me after sorry.
And I see I spelled harassment wrong.
Holy shit, that's horrible (not the spelling mistake). I hope that justice was done, if even possible, and that you were able to somehow move past it, what's wrong with people?
Rick, you won't even move to Portland to get a job, but yet you'll move to the outer edges of the solar system because you're afraid some woman at some job you don't have will start accusing you of sexually harassing her just because you're heterosexual?
Rick, you won't make it past Uranus.
Oh, I thought you were really moving there. My bad.
good god, we're back to this?!
You expect me to believe that a guy who is 40-50 years old, lives in his parents basement, doesnt have a job, talks incessantly about how smart he is, and does want to be told what to do- somehow, SOMEHOW- got close enough to a real live woman that he thinks he might be sued for harrassment?!
Yes, it's why I read this forum.
Do Blow up dolls and goats count?
Rick, I've known two people without degrees. They are better paid and hold higher positions purely because instead of school they spent 5 years working and gaining experience. They add the projects they've worked on to their portfolio and immediately principals are like "oh shit, yeah, we'll waive the degree requirement."
One is in his late twenties the other is close to 40. Both are licensed in CA.
What happened to this thread, Jesus Christ...
Balkins happened.
^great bumper sticker
.
More like napalm.
Great post I made and had forgotten until now.
There are no pretty women in architecture so .... no, I haven't had the opportunity to sexually harass anyone. But I almost banged a civil engineer about 25 years ago. Two civil engineers actually. Couldn't decide which one to go after so they kind of canceled each other out. Good times.
No.
What do you mean by "Even Neri Oxman etc." What's with the even?
What criteria are you asking for a judgement of better? Better objectification of women? Better digital trail for the lawyers who might one day represent Neri Oxman in a harassment suit against you? Please be more specific.
NO.
Never heard of Neri Oxman before. But I guess we're in the minority here. Comments are hidden, obviously too offensive for the snowflakes who are the majority on this forum. At least we can rest comfortably with the preconceived notion that most architects are pussies with no sense of humor.
used to work at a small place with a bunch of older gentlemen. Whenever the boss man left the office the porn videos came on everyone’s monitors... these guys were all married and beaten dogs. I was a fresh grad, and even as a male I felt very uncomfortable about it. I quit after 2 months at that position
Are you saying that copy of Fountain Head was not about Howard Roark?
Does the opposite also work? Does poor ironing skills drive men away?
I do all my own ironing... there is no way I'll put the life of my shirts in the hands of my wife. She does love to vacuum tho
I have terrible skills throughout the laundry process.
Cats never get it.
No ironing since 2008
No poor ironing skills does not but poor cooking skills will. The little woman has a way better chance by saying "I don't cook" instead of actually cooking burnt nasty meals for her man.
I wish there was a forum like rate my professor but for architects/designers with a scale of 'harassability' or something...Anybody interested in starting a list of people/firms where incidents have happened so as to help each other avoid in the future? Google doc or something I guess could work
Did you just create an account to post this?
I'm often reading different blog posts in the Forum, but never have commented. I guess I thought it was time to become more engaged on this platform. Why do you ask?
Unverifiable accusations from anonymous posters on a website is a horrible idea.
Bingo, geezer.
ok i hear you... so what kind of outlet would be good to share verifiable information on. do either of you know of one already?
Glassdoor ... their review policy states "general discussions of workplace misconduct are allowed, including most discussions of illegal activities, discrimination, and sexual harassment," but I don't think they'll let you name names if that's what you're aiming for.
Didn't know about that option. Thanks Everyday Architect. I'm interested in trying to help each other avoid undesirable circumstances. Nothing more to it than that.
puppiesmakemehappy I'll team up with you!
I hope you're still on Archinect!!
Kittiesmakemehappy: we have a lot in common. Let's tag team and get a doc together so we
Can start collecting data about firms. Or surely someone knows some folks doing thi
s work?
Puppies only existed here for this brief discussion.
Garrison Keillor got jobbed!
Man this one, along with Franken are still kinda bothering me. internally I'm trying to reconcile the fact that good people sometimes do bad things. Is it a zero sum game? how do you weigh these kinds of issues against a life time of positive work or other accomplishments? I was thinking about Thomas Jefferson, you know the rapist on our $2 dollar bill.
Maybe Garrison is right. Maybe there is an air of McCarthy-ism to what’s happening.
I read his statement as an F-U, in a way only Garrison can say it
Not to get too political here, but how long has the left cast a blind eye towards Bill Clinton? It's a lot harder when it's one of your own, I guess.
Yup. Seen it in enough places (and interns ending up as partners) to know it's not rare. Also seen it go the other way, bullying, and racial prejudice (making certain demographics work longer and speaking to them poorly). Worst one I saw was HR harassing staff, doling out benefits to those that would obey (including puchasing after work drinks, dinner, etc); benefits being spa treatments, and looking other way on company card expenditures and time off.
ya know that it's getting a little out of hand when Massage Envy clients come forward with these claims.
I was once propositioned by a female client. It made the relationship finishing the project very awkward as we had a lot of meetings with her husband too. I'm not sure he would have cared. I'm not sure I would call it harassment because it was a one time thing, just an unwanted advance, and not a coworker, so the situation ended fairly quickly.
Other than that I have not seen what I would call harassment.
But the sexism in this industry is very real. I have seen many of the things woman have posted about being judged or relegated to tasks based on their gender. I had a female principle at a firm for quite a while and though I was her subordinate any number of people from clients to contractors and reps would speak to me first presumably only because I was a man.
I am extremely worried that while we think we are dealing with this harassment issue right now, we are actually setting ourselves way back. How many stupid men (as evidenced by this thread) are going to avoid talking to a woman because they are worried that a misstep could cause a problem? Is it safer to talk to the man? does that undermine women's ability to claim authority?
I worry less about harassment of my daughters because I think they have a strong constitution and the ability to stand up and say NO or speak out when something bad happens. But the systemic misogynistic views that prevent opportunities being available to them in the first place is an issue I do not yet have an answer to. I think we just desperately need gender equality at the top. Like some sort of affirmative action plan but for women.
I'm sure that comment is going to see some haters. I'm not attacking men. Don't conflate the issue with your masculinity.
It's a double edged sword. A women can't act without reinforcing the stereo type. That's my fear. All of this action, however correct it may be is being blown out of proportion to the extent that it is having some really negative consequences.
The "Pence Rule" is way worse for society than the harrasment issues. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/nov/29/mike-pence-rule-contrasts-sex-misconduct-accusatio/
"All of this action, however correct it may be is being blown out of proportion to the extent that it is having some really negative consequences."
What are those really negative consequences? Just keeping it in your pants is always an option...
I find it uncomfortable when men are having a conversation about what's best for women, even if well intentioned. I know ya'll are trying to be sympathetic, but somehow it just comes off as re-enforcing the schism you are trying to break down.
@ Won, Yeah I know what you mean, but a conversation has to happen. There are women on this thread who are contributing to the conversation. @Randomised the negative consequence is you are seeing men worried about false accusations. Mainly because of the hype and sensationalism given to these claims. the vitriol with which some are defending and ostracizing offenders. There will most certainly be both men and women who are hesitant to engage each other professionally because of perceived risk. This is the idea of the "Pence Rule" It has nothing to do with protecting women and everything to do with protecting Mike Pence. It seems horrible to me that could be the outcome for some people, because now rather than potentially having to deal with a shitty harassment or inappropriate situation women are not even in the room. Opportunities are denied. Women are seen as a burden.
I've never harassed a women in my life. It's actually really easy to not harass women. This is not "a conversation we need to have" as most people already know appropriate from inappropriate. This is a conversation some assholes need to hear. Big difference.
We also need to stop pretending that we don't notice attractive women. It's bullshit. It's tantamount to "colorblindness". People need to be mature enough to think "wow she is beautiful", and still show respect. Fucking thought police and these pc hipster assholes are the new puritans. And women need to stop playing the sex card. Some women are dumb and some are assholes just as some men are. Equality means that I should be able to call a women a moron as I can call a man one. Or disagree with their policy or idea without automatically being called a sexist.
"I've never harassed a women in my life. It's actually really easy to not harass women. This is not a conversation we need to have ." We are not the ones who define what is harassment. That is for the victim to decide.
You should read that article that Tduds posted a few comments down. You and I are both one of the "good guys" just like Franken, Keilor, and Clinton. Good people sometimes do shitty things. Often without the knowledge what they are doing is shitty.
Terrible article pushing guilty until proven innocent bs. Sexual assault and harassment are very obvious to anyone with common sense. Main problem is that now you have wolves like Matt lauer wearing a pc sheep suit. Harder to know upfront
who we are dealing with.
"@Randomised the negative consequence is you are seeing men worried about false accusations. Mainly because of the hype and sensationalism given to these claims."
I don't see any innocent men worried about false accusations. All I see is guilty men worried about being called out next.
An erection doesn't mean consent.
President Trump hasn't been taken down yet.
Denny Hastert is in prison.
NT
He is out? I wasn't aware.
So he is. Molest some kids and commit financial fraud and you get 13 months. I think it is a fine example of how we treat convicted sex offenders of high power. It is easy to see how some prefer to remain silent.
45's days are numbered; only a matter of time before melania rolls on him
This seems relevant to the conversation: https://medium.com/@thefatshad...
Good read. Thanks
We should send some decoys with hidden cameras into these offices. Call John Stossel.
So, the Stoss in a blond wig, fishnets, and heels that take him up to 6 foot 6? I'm aroused already! That hairbrush he calls a mustache will need a LOT of foundation to hide, though ;o]
So a big hairy blonde in fishnets is what gets you going. Good to know. Better make those fishnets heavy duty kind...
Yes, actual nets used for fishing. I don't know what it is about them...
You are secretly desiring to be a captive fish?
aren't we all tintt?
'fraid so.
Its called a Kamoose up here in the north eh
It can be a problem if the firm leadership doesn't have well defined, written guidelines for such things. That way everyone is aware of what is and isn't acceptable. This can vary from office to office.
For example:
One office I worked an electrician was installing some light fixtures in our conference room A female staff member told the electrician that 'his ass was a work of art' A partner overheard another staff member telling someone what she had heard the female staff member say. The partner confirmed with the electrician what was said and the female staff member was imminently terminated.
In another office a female co worker was being being told she had nice breasts by a mechanical contractor who comes by the office frequently. She informed the elder partner of the firm and he told her not to wear clothing that emphasized her breasts.
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