Never heard of a dimensioning competition before, but anyway............
It's pretty obvious from the little drawing you posted that the stud wall line is continuous all the way through. If it not, you are going to have a bump in the drywall in the big room.
I get call backs. I got this one: "Just wanted to call to say I don't have any questions and thank you for putting together an excellent set of drawings. You have made my job so much easier and I appreciate that. Nobody seems to be able to do that." Not distracting or tiresome at all.
Spend some time on a job site (not observing, actually working).
75% of the tradespeople are concerned only with their new shotgun/ the big game/ getting drunk after work/ recovering from previous day's drinking. The other 25% are just trying to get through the day without getting injured by one of the other 75% or having something they did get fucked up by one of the others.
We have to plan for the 75% to make sure the project turns out well.
Proper way to do it is as previously stated by geezertect (dimension to face of framing, one side). Simply put, reduces measuring mistakes greatly in the field.
Now, to add about a drafting technique, you may have up to 4 dim strings PER SIDE.Closest to further from building represents:
Openings (centerlines)
Rooms
Major breaklines (or massings)
Overall (out to out)
Not every string is completed (out ot out), some may have “gaps” and that’s ok. And make sure distance between strings is equal all 4 sides. Anything else is sloppy and un professional.
^ I saw a trades-person this morning damage his own work by carelessly going over floor transitions with heavy dollies of tiles. The site super hailed him down but the worker could not care less. He made his money, someone else will fix it later, maybe.
Back when someone discovered 24”OC framing I did a library and tried it…big box notes “24”OC”…I was the architect/CM & superintendent. Bunks of wood arrived, framers arrived…was cold I retreated to the trailer, after two walls went up I went out to check and sure enough it was all 16”OC.
Arch is correct, you need to plan for the 75%...if they can’t read they sure can't do fractions.
if they can't tell the difference between 16" and 24" on a tape measure, then whether they can tell the difference between 1" and 1/4" is a pointless discussion. there are problems other than how you dimension happening here.
the fact that some of you actually think there is a a wrong way and a right way, as if one was better than the other, either indicates your limited experience or lack of broader experience......try entire rooms figured out to the 1/8", done that many times and the framer can not fuck up, on one job they reframed 4 times with us coming back each time marking in pencil all the layers of materials and how they were supposed to me, on my knees with a pencil...... on the other hand try 30k+ sqft of office interiors with practically no real dimensoons - on center, align, equal/equal, etc.... ..........to the OP draw that intersection detail as Non said. its obvious how this works, but not obvious to you.
"Now, to add about a drafting technique, you may have up to 4 dim strings PER SIDE.Closest to further from building represents:
Openings (centerlines)
Rooms
Major breaklines (or massings)
Overall (out to out)
Not every string is completed (out ot out), some may have “gaps” and that’s ok. And make sure distance between strings is equal all 4 sides."
It's kind of hilarious this isn't the kind of thing they teach you in architecture school.
Olaf - I've always been a fan of drawing things full scale. But what are you supposed to do, go lay out the entire project for these people?
One of the best details I ever got built was a serious of geometric saw cuts in a polished slab... went out with enough 4' x 24' black and white plots to cover the entire floor and taped them down. "Cut on the lines." Even they could understand that.
try entire rooms figured out to the 1/8", done that many times and the framer can not fuck up, on one job they reframed 4 times with us coming back each time marking in pencil all the layers of materials and how they were supposed to me, on my knees with a pencil
Are you saying that one of your jobs required reframing FOUR TIMES? If so, something was made waaaaayyyyy too complicated, IMHO.
just curious - what are your allowable construction tolerances?
I have no prof. construction experience but when I framed my basement i found it real difficult to be more accurate than 1". My wood was often bowed and i had to reef on the boards to stay straight.
yes geezer we had a commercial contractor doing high-end work, see my latter example, those guys are not geared for precise work. they prioritize time over accuracy and in this case they did it 3 times after each meeting wrong and each time we said rip it out. it took the 4th with oversite to ensure it was right. they paid for it...
If you need to “line things up” then you do it, then revert back to chalk lines…you’re the only one with a calculator & a computer.
The first part I totally agree with...yes, its my responsibility to show what i want. But I'm not sure framing dims represent that for all cases (or even most). Some walls have finishes that don't matter; so, fine, dimension those so it's easiest for everyone involved. But some walls need to be flat & plumb & dimensionally correct or they will show off the lack of coordination.
The second part is naive or specious...because next you'll be arguing that field conditions are rarely perfect and people should get out from behind their computers to see what REAL field conditions are... #getoffmylawn
Even new construction isn't perfect (building tolerances for different materials guarantee that), and the guys making our designs HAVE to make minor field decisions as they move along. Giving the framers framing dimensions gives the impression that their work is independent from the other trades by letting them think that the job is done if they hit their numbers. (How many folks here have had an issue come up during construction and a sub responds to it with, "I just built what was on the plans" but not necessarily thinking about the implications of his work?). The best projects have subs who care about the project beyond their own immediate discipline and understand a bigger picture. I want the framer to think beyond, "is the wall hitting the right number?" He should be thinking, "is the wall actually in the right place given what it's intended for?" I can't pretend to do that for him when i don't also control all the other field conditions that he's building in.
The best projects have subs who care about the project beyond their own immediate discipline and understand a bigger picture
Yes, but what about the others who don't care? I say dumb it down and don't take chances.
I want the framer to think beyond, "is the wall hitting the right number?" He should be thinking, "is the wall actually in the right place given what it's intended for?"
Isn't that the architects job? Maybe I don't understand what you're saying. Are you talking about remodel work?
The OP is asking his question in the context of residential work. Residential is a different world than high end commercial. If you hit within an inch you're doing very good. And, yes, houses are 99% wood studs covered in drywall. If the design can't tolerate that level of error, it is just not a realistic design. Again, IMHO.
As an architect, if your wood framing tolerance is 1/8" you're a novice. The actual framing members themselves - both solid and engineered - vary by more than that. That being said, I routinely design various finish conditions with near-zero tolerance, but always have an escape available to make it possible. Better yet is creating what looks like zero-tolerance without having to build it that way.
As for framers, good ones crown all the material - including engineered lumber - and build to compensate for shrinkage (which can be significant with solid material, up to 3/8" in some cases.
The very worst projects are built by guys (including architects) who don't give a shit about anyone else. I consider it my responsibility - when designing and building - to make everyone else's job as smooth as possible, and I fully expect them to do the same for me. If they don't, adios.
Do you indicate ceiling height to the face of ceiling framing, or do you call out the finished ceiling height to the bottom of the gyp? from the subfloor or finished floor?
Do you call out the height of light switches/outlets to the bottom of the electrical box?
Do you dimension to king studs, jack studs, or rough openings?
My point is, subs will have to do math, you can't get around this. You will have to trust that the trades-people you work with can do their job (better than we can) at some point.
On houses, I dimensioned to frame. Generally, did not dimension rough openings. Electrical outlet heights noted on plans, but usually only when there was cabinetry, i.e. kitchens and baths. The rest can be covered with a general note on the electrical plans.
Hate to beat a dead horse, but I think dimensions should almost always be for the framer, since he is first on the job after the foundation is in. Everybody else is building to whatever he does. Mistakes have to be caught in frame. Make framer's job the easiest.
geezer you are beating a dead horse for one type of work, there are many other horses out there. your point is taken for single family dwellings. dimension as the job requires.
....... for outlets, which is an intereating one. many architects do exact on center from some point. a commercial arhitect i worked for said he stopped doing dimensions on them and putting "scale off drawings" and "spray paint locations for A/E approval" because he was tired of the electrician calling and telling him a stud was in the way........now for those of you who are so throughoughly convinced, geezer, that framing comes first and therefore not affected by other trades - on high-end work, work that requires lots of design and oversite by the architect - on more than one occasion I have asked the contractor to move the stud and put the outlet as dimensioned on the drawing. they get cranky, but not my problem, the drawings clearly show the outlet there. its high-end not because it cost a lot, its because every detail was designed..........anyway, i have decided to put a different note when doing high-end, especially residential, "Contractor to confirm all outlets with A/E and client in the field".. so they run the BX, and with us all present we confirm each outlets exact location. if a stud moves, it moves.
btw, have seen a framing plan and then a construction plan sheet that follows. the issue with this is coordination. granted in the computer it should be automated but there is a chance it is not - the change orders will be on you.....so shift some of this responsibility on the GC - they all make more money than you anyway.
So what happens if you have a clear dimension that you need for ADA or egress and you dimension to face of stud throughout and the framers slam their way thru it and use their big toe to measure and place the wall for the egress hall as dimensioned on the plans (10' from the other wall they just placed, no thinking required, the architect drew the plans) and since things don't always work out, it is off by 3-4 inches when it can't be? Then isn't it the architect's fault? But if you tell them the important dimension and it is wrong, it is the contractor's fault.
If I have clear dimensions like what you are talking about tintt, I make a note of it in the drawings, or show a turning circle/ wheelchair clearance circle and note that.
It is tempting on the computer to make something exactly what you need for code, but as a rule I try to go at least 1" larger if dim below around 48". If larger I try to do 2". Lately I have been drawing everything through beginning of DD with a wall that has an extra layer of 5/8" gyp on it, which works out to 1 1/4 of built-in tolerance. This is small scale institutional, education and civic work.
tntt: Huh? You dimension the stud wall where it needs to be to provide the finished clearance you will need AFTER the finishes are on. What's so complicated about that? If things are going to be off by 3-4" as you say, what makes you think finished dimensions to 1/8" tolerance are going to save the day? The drywall goes on AFTER the studs are up. Telling the framer where the drywall is does him no good since the drywall isn't there yet!
Like archanonymous says, I gave myself an inch or two.
Spend some time on a job site, particularly residential, and you will understand how half-assed the construction process really is. Buildings aren't built in a sterile lab by college graduates with white doctors' smocks. It's a fucking mess when it goes up.
So if you need 5-0" clear, you dimension to place the stud at 4'-11 3/8"? Sounds like a lot of fun but I'll pass.
If you dimension to face of stud, is that the line that is drawn in your plans? Or do you draw another line 5/8" away from the stud for the gyp and print it at 1/8" scale and then get mad when the contractor can't see what you are dimensioning to because you can't even see it?
geezer, you seem overly emotional about it. Maybe your projects are a mess because your drawings are a mess (see above.)
One of my problems with programs like Tulane Urban Build or Auburn Rural Studio is that while students get to actually build a house (which is awesome, and necessary) they do it with 10-15 other highly-educated (mostly) middle or upper-class kids.
Working in the trades on actual job sites is so much crazier. I can't even keep track of all the crazy shit I've seen working summers through HS and College in construction. From trash filling up wall cavities to drinking on site, jerkin off in the port-a-let, insane injuries, guys who couldn't add fractions, etc...
There are definitely really smart guys that love what they do and do it well, but there is little incentive for them to stay in the field when you can work as a crew chief or estimator if you have half a brain.
I used to put a huge asterisk next to absolute dimensions. Maybe an exclamation point would be better….point is, pick your fights and let the rest fly.
Arch, how about those stains that keep bleeding through the paint on the basement wall...exactly where you discovered everybody was taking a shit in the block cores...are you taking about those guys?
tntt: If I needed 5-0" clear, I certainly wouldn't make the stud dimension 4'-11 3/8". That would mean that I would have 4'11" clear after the drywall was applied. Things get smaller after drywalling, not larger. No, I would make the stud dimension at least 5'1" or 5-2". BTW single family houses (the OP's project) are 1/2" drywall except for a few places.
I drew the studs as 3 1/2", and did not ever try to draw the drywall in plan, since the 1/2" ink lines would obviously run together when the drawings were plotted at 1/4" scale, and would therefore be meaningless.
This is the problem with the computer. It leads you to believe that if you can draw something to 1/64" you can build it that way. ( I'm exaggerating to make a point). The zoom feature leads to the Mr. Magoo syndrome. The nice thing about hand drafting was that it kind of simulated the inaccuracy of the real world.
One of my first experiences after school (before license) was spent doing field inspections on a big FHA project, with a dubious GC. The shit that goes on is unbelievable. Duels on Friday afternoon with ramset guns were particularly stimulating.
I can assure you my drawings were not a mess.
I'm not emotional in the least, although I will admit I've never had a reputation for suffering fools gladly.
Not hell, just reality. Same general principle applies in commercial, however. Construction is just messy. You're taking a bunch of pieces of material, sometimes semi-liquid like concrete, and attaching them together on an empty piece of land, in varying weather conditions, using workers of varying intelligence, education, experience, motivation, English proficiency, and sobriety and hoping it all comes out. Sometimes it's a miracle the fucking thing doesn't blow down in the first wind.
"Sometimes it's a miracle the fucking thing doesn't blow down in the first wind." It’s the same reason I don’t ride on Ferris wheels...I know too much.
When I'm dimensioning I always think back to my 10+ years as a high-end residential carpenter. I'm very good at math but when you are framing in the heat, cold, or rain, with a tight deadline and money on the line if you make a mistake, it really, really sucks when the architect is lazy about dimensioning. When half your jobs have 1/2" GWB and half have 5/8", or when it changes from room to room, and you are trying to keep five guys productive, unnecessary mistakes happen.
A couple of years ago I did a short stint as a site supervisor for a Passive House builder. The house was designed by a tony NY architecture firm and was beautiful, but the dimensioning was just horrible. Nothing was clear, basically everything was "VIF." To cut to the chase, I allowed all the windows and doors to be installed in the wrong plane, thanks to a lazy architect. I vowed to never dip my toes in construction again, and to always keep in mind what the guy on site NEEDS in order to do his job quickly and efficiently.
If your wall studs are varying by more than 1/16" you need to find a better supplier or spec a better grade. Floor joists may vary more than that but those dimensions are usually less critical, and it seems like more higher end work uses engineered joists anyway.
Do you indicate ceiling height to the face of ceiling framing, or do you call out the finished ceiling height to the bottom of the gyp? from the subfloor or finished floor?
I specify how the project will be built, so I dimension the height of the wall framing, typically from top of floor sheathing/bottom of bottom plate to top of top plate. I also note the finished ceiling dimensions from flooring to ceiling on the sections but that's just for reference.
Do you call out the height of light switches/outlets to the bottom of the electrical box?
I usually just write the height to center line of devices in the electrical symbol key, and note that it is to the center of box, as different electricians do it differently. Sometimes I refer to the interior elevations and dimension them there.
Do you dimension to king studs, jack studs, or rough openings?
Center lines, and list the RO's on the window and door schedule, along with the height from subfloor to bottom of header.
I specify how the project will be built, so I dimension the height of the wall framing, typically from top of floor sheathing/bottom of bottom plate to top of top plate. I also note the finished ceiling dimensions from flooring to ceiling on the sections but that's just for reference.
Wouldn't you need to specify the size the studs need to be cut at if you were really trying to help me (the framer) not do any math? Can't you figure out how much space your bottom plate and top plate take up and put it on the drawings?
I usually just write the height to center line of devices in the electrical symbol key, and note that it is to the center of box
I'm not sure how I can make my tape measure hook onto the center line of an electrical box. Do they make electrical boxes with center lines easily marked?
Center lines, and list the RO's on the window and door schedule, along with the height from subfloor to bottom of header.
Oh no, more math to figure out where the center of an opening is when I'm pulling a tape from the end of the wall. Why can't you give me sizes I need to cut my king studs, jack studs, header, etc.? Urrgh, I'm just a dumb framer who can't do math ... what am I supposed to do?
Mar 11, 16 4:50 pm ·
·
E_I,
You would probably do that in a wall section. Experienced framers will subject wall height from bottom of sill plate to top plate. ~3" for non-load bearing and ~4-1/2" for load-bearing wall. Do note the ~ for approximate as you may need to adjust a little for actual thickness of the lumber used such as some uses dimensions like 1-5/8" x 3-5/8" for a nom. 2x4 instead of 1-1/2" x 3-1/2".
Experienced builders know what they are doing.
Remember, the junior framers or 'green horns' usually are not the ones looking at the building plans. Usually a foreman or someone of that level with construction experience does that and instruct the framers who are doing the grunt work of driving nails and all.
In most decent construction crews are supervised by experienced builders who have had their years in and they supervise the team.
If you really need to get that nitty gritty, you may optionally choose to do framing plans of floors and roofs and also may do framing elevations (wall version of the framing plans for floors.).
Balkins, I was being over-the-top facetious to prove a point.
FYI, experienced builders know what they are doing better than you, and will try to use precut studs when possible (for example 92-5/8" instead of 96" where you want nominal 8-foot-high ceilings). Saves time cutting every 96" stud to length and makes for less construction waste. If for some reason there is a strange ceiling height and precut studs won't work there are other tricks too.
... but thanks for playing.
Mar 11, 16 7:10 pm ·
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E_I,
Precut studs........ OK... want a cookie?
Sure, if you want to make the wall 8'-1 1/8"
It makes sense for that.
HOWEVER, walls are't always for nom. 8' high ceilings. Then you think beyond that. Those other tricks is no trick at all.
I've done material lists before with very efficient material use. A little saw dust and mostly thin slivers.
Wood shouldn't vary more than 1/16th....
What grade is that? I don't remember what I ordered, most of it was alright, but the 12' long treated lumber was a mess. Not sure anything was w/ in 1/16th tho.
The best thing is to keep it simple the less steps and efficient the better. I always tell my guys as a way of illustration and to get them in the right mindset is to think of building the project with just one cut. Of course that is impossible but the idea is to get from point A to point B as efficiently as possible. I have found that usually the easiest way is the best way and takes care of everything from time management to material usage to quality.
I like face of stud measurements but if it is outside of wall to the center of the first wall and then center to center from there it is just an easy calculation to subtract 1/2 the wall thickness to get the edge for our line snapping measurement. And center to center is the same as edge to edge. But it is just another step or cut that doesn't need to be taken in the field.
.And don't use finish wall measurements we have enough to think about without going to the finish schedule look up the room number find the finish material and subtract it from the measurement. And also I personally would look at the wall section that would be there because you all are good archi's to check for inconsistencies. All that just to snap a line, cracker please!
That said I have some pet peeves that I take into account concerning the finish material. One is where a shelf or shelves are next to a sheetrocked opening where the top of the shelf is to be at the opening. Say top of shelf @ 7' 6" the same as the opening. Now if you frame them both at 7'6" and sheetrock them there will be a 1" difference and look like crap. What I do is frame the shelf at 7'5" to account for the rock on top of the shelf and the bottom of the opening, afterwards it all lines up and looks like someone thought about it.
It is clear to me from some of the responses that some of you guys need to get out in the field and put some nailbags on. And not just work on a crew either you need to be accountable for making a profit or you don't get paid. I guarantee your attitude will change and start making your drawings more concise and efficient.
I would much rather work with someone like Ms. Sink or Mr. Wood Guy than Mr. Tintt because they have the correct attitude a team attitude. Case in point from Mr. Tintt So if you need 5-0" clear, you dimension to place the stud at 4'-11 3/8"? Sounds like a lot of fun but I'll pass. " I work with these kind of dimensions everyday it is not that hard. And because you can't be bothered to work to the stud face I have to subtract the finish material? Yea well I charge for my time and I will charge a Pain In the Ass fee to work with your drawings. You may not think that your subs charge this but believe me they do. It is just like when I build for a Professional Engineer I charge more because I know they will be a pain.
Also from Mr. Tintt "If you dimension to face of stud, is that the line that is drawn in your plans? Or do you draw another line 5/8" away from the stud for the gyp and print it at 1/8" scale and then get mad when the contractor can't see what you are dimensioning to because you can't even see it?"
You need to learn to draw better plans. You show the rock and the rest of the wall assembly in a section.
Wall to Wall Dimensions on a Floorplan
Never heard of a dimensioning competition before, but anyway............
It's pretty obvious from the little drawing you posted that the stud wall line is continuous all the way through. If it not, you are going to have a bump in the drywall in the big room.
I get call backs. I got this one: "Just wanted to call to say I don't have any questions and thank you for putting together an excellent set of drawings. You have made my job so much easier and I appreciate that. Nobody seems to be able to do that." Not distracting or tiresome at all.
is it really harder to draw a mark at the 1/4" line on a tape measure compared to the 1" mark?
yes, it is, curtkram.
Spend some time on a job site (not observing, actually working).
75% of the tradespeople are concerned only with their new shotgun/ the big game/ getting drunk after work/ recovering from previous day's drinking. The other 25% are just trying to get through the day without getting injured by one of the other 75% or having something they did get fucked up by one of the others.
We have to plan for the 75% to make sure the project turns out well.
Proper way to do it is as previously stated by geezertect (dimension to face of framing, one side). Simply put, reduces measuring mistakes greatly in the field.
Now, to add about a drafting technique, you may have up to 4 dim strings PER SIDE.Closest to further from building represents:
Not every string is completed (out ot out), some may have “gaps” and that’s ok. And make sure distance between strings is equal all 4 sides. Anything else is sloppy and un professional.
Ps: get rid of linen and relocate vanity sink.
^ I saw a trades-person this morning damage his own work by carelessly going over floor transitions with heavy dollies of tiles. The site super hailed him down but the worker could not care less. He made his money, someone else will fix it later, maybe.
Half an hour ago I had to tell the super to take down a wall they had just finished framing without looking at the plans, they had 2x6 instead of 2x8.
Back when someone discovered 24”OC framing I did a library and tried it…big box notes “24”OC”…I was the architect/CM & superintendent. Bunks of wood arrived, framers arrived…was cold I retreated to the trailer, after two walls went up I went out to check and sure enough it was all 16”OC.
Arch is correct, you need to plan for the 75%...if they can’t read they sure can't do fractions.
if they can't tell the difference between 16" and 24" on a tape measure, then whether they can tell the difference between 1" and 1/4" is a pointless discussion. there are problems other than how you dimension happening here.
the fact that some of you actually think there is a a wrong way and a right way, as if one was better than the other, either indicates your limited experience or lack of broader experience......try entire rooms figured out to the 1/8", done that many times and the framer can not fuck up, on one job they reframed 4 times with us coming back each time marking in pencil all the layers of materials and how they were supposed to me, on my knees with a pencil...... on the other hand try 30k+ sqft of office interiors with practically no real dimensoons - on center, align, equal/equal, etc.... ..........to the OP draw that intersection detail as Non said. its obvious how this works, but not obvious to you.
from cadomestique up there
"Now, to add about a drafting technique, you may have up to 4 dim strings PER SIDE.Closest to further from building represents:
Not every string is completed (out ot out), some may have “gaps” and that’s ok. And make sure distance between strings is equal all 4 sides."
It's kind of hilarious this isn't the kind of thing they teach you in architecture school.
Olaf - I've always been a fan of drawing things full scale. But what are you supposed to do, go lay out the entire project for these people?
One of the best details I ever got built was a serious of geometric saw cuts in a polished slab... went out with enough 4' x 24' black and white plots to cover the entire floor and taped them down. "Cut on the lines." Even they could understand that.
sometimes you have to do what you gotta do, archanon
try entire rooms figured out to the 1/8", done that many times and the framer can not fuck up, on one job they reframed 4 times with us coming back each time marking in pencil all the layers of materials and how they were supposed to me, on my knees with a pencil
Are you saying that one of your jobs required reframing FOUR TIMES? If so, something was made waaaaayyyyy too complicated, IMHO.
It's kind of hilarious this isn't the kind of thing they teach you in architecture school.
Yes. Kind of hilarious, kind of sensible, kind of sad.
just curious - what are your allowable construction tolerances?
I have no prof. construction experience but when I framed my basement i found it real difficult to be more accurate than 1". My wood was often bowed and i had to reef on the boards to stay straight.
yes geezer we had a commercial contractor doing high-end work, see my latter example, those guys are not geared for precise work. they prioritize time over accuracy and in this case they did it 3 times after each meeting wrong and each time we said rip it out. it took the 4th with oversite to ensure it was right. they paid for it...
If you need to “line things up” then you do it, then revert back to chalk lines…you’re the only one with a calculator & a computer.
The first part I totally agree with...yes, its my responsibility to show what i want. But I'm not sure framing dims represent that for all cases (or even most). Some walls have finishes that don't matter; so, fine, dimension those so it's easiest for everyone involved. But some walls need to be flat & plumb & dimensionally correct or they will show off the lack of coordination.
The second part is naive or specious...because next you'll be arguing that field conditions are rarely perfect and people should get out from behind their computers to see what REAL field conditions are... #getoffmylawn
Even new construction isn't perfect (building tolerances for different materials guarantee that), and the guys making our designs HAVE to make minor field decisions as they move along. Giving the framers framing dimensions gives the impression that their work is independent from the other trades by letting them think that the job is done if they hit their numbers. (How many folks here have had an issue come up during construction and a sub responds to it with, "I just built what was on the plans" but not necessarily thinking about the implications of his work?). The best projects have subs who care about the project beyond their own immediate discipline and understand a bigger picture. I want the framer to think beyond, "is the wall hitting the right number?" He should be thinking, "is the wall actually in the right place given what it's intended for?" I can't pretend to do that for him when i don't also control all the other field conditions that he's building in.
The best projects have subs who care about the project beyond their own immediate discipline and understand a bigger picture
Yes, but what about the others who don't care? I say dumb it down and don't take chances.
I want the framer to think beyond, "is the wall hitting the right number?" He should be thinking, "is the wall actually in the right place given what it's intended for?"
Isn't that the architects job? Maybe I don't understand what you're saying. Are you talking about remodel work?
The OP is asking his question in the context of residential work. Residential is a different world than high end commercial. If you hit within an inch you're doing very good. And, yes, houses are 99% wood studs covered in drywall. If the design can't tolerate that level of error, it is just not a realistic design. Again, IMHO.
^ Friend of mine calls them “Wood Butchers”.
geezer said - "yes, houses are 99% wood studs covered in drywall" --- on the inside.
As an architect, if your wood framing tolerance is 1/8" you're a novice. The actual framing members themselves - both solid and engineered - vary by more than that. That being said, I routinely design various finish conditions with near-zero tolerance, but always have an escape available to make it possible. Better yet is creating what looks like zero-tolerance without having to build it that way.
As for framers, good ones crown all the material - including engineered lumber - and build to compensate for shrinkage (which can be significant with solid material, up to 3/8" in some cases.
The very worst projects are built by guys (including architects) who don't give a shit about anyone else. I consider it my responsibility - when designing and building - to make everyone else's job as smooth as possible, and I fully expect them to do the same for me. If they don't, adios.
For those who dimension to face of studs:
Do you indicate ceiling height to the face of ceiling framing, or do you call out the finished ceiling height to the bottom of the gyp? from the subfloor or finished floor?
Do you call out the height of light switches/outlets to the bottom of the electrical box?
Do you dimension to king studs, jack studs, or rough openings?
My point is, subs will have to do math, you can't get around this. You will have to trust that the trades-people you work with can do their job (better than we can) at some point.
Just my perspective.
On houses, I dimensioned to frame. Generally, did not dimension rough openings. Electrical outlet heights noted on plans, but usually only when there was cabinetry, i.e. kitchens and baths. The rest can be covered with a general note on the electrical plans.
Hate to beat a dead horse, but I think dimensions should almost always be for the framer, since he is first on the job after the foundation is in. Everybody else is building to whatever he does. Mistakes have to be caught in frame. Make framer's job the easiest.
+++
geezer you are beating a dead horse for one type of work, there are many other horses out there. your point is taken for single family dwellings. dimension as the job requires. ....... for outlets, which is an intereating one. many architects do exact on center from some point. a commercial arhitect i worked for said he stopped doing dimensions on them and putting "scale off drawings" and "spray paint locations for A/E approval" because he was tired of the electrician calling and telling him a stud was in the way........now for those of you who are so throughoughly convinced, geezer, that framing comes first and therefore not affected by other trades - on high-end work, work that requires lots of design and oversite by the architect - on more than one occasion I have asked the contractor to move the stud and put the outlet as dimensioned on the drawing. they get cranky, but not my problem, the drawings clearly show the outlet there. its high-end not because it cost a lot, its because every detail was designed..........anyway, i have decided to put a different note when doing high-end, especially residential, "Contractor to confirm all outlets with A/E and client in the field".. so they run the BX, and with us all present we confirm each outlets exact location. if a stud moves, it moves.
btw, have seen a framing plan and then a construction plan sheet that follows. the issue with this is coordination. granted in the computer it should be automated but there is a chance it is not - the change orders will be on you.....so shift some of this responsibility on the GC - they all make more money than you anyway.
Olaf: Duly noted. I'm talking about standard issue residential (including McMansion level) work, since that's what the OP's project apparently is.
Good thing Spring is here, since we seem to dancing around the Maypole. LOL
So what happens if you have a clear dimension that you need for ADA or egress and you dimension to face of stud throughout and the framers slam their way thru it and use their big toe to measure and place the wall for the egress hall as dimensioned on the plans (10' from the other wall they just placed, no thinking required, the architect drew the plans) and since things don't always work out, it is off by 3-4 inches when it can't be? Then isn't it the architect's fault? But if you tell them the important dimension and it is wrong, it is the contractor's fault.
If I have clear dimensions like what you are talking about tintt, I make a note of it in the drawings, or show a turning circle/ wheelchair clearance circle and note that.
It is tempting on the computer to make something exactly what you need for code, but as a rule I try to go at least 1" larger if dim below around 48". If larger I try to do 2". Lately I have been drawing everything through beginning of DD with a wall that has an extra layer of 5/8" gyp on it, which works out to 1 1/4 of built-in tolerance. This is small scale institutional, education and civic work.
tntt: Huh? You dimension the stud wall where it needs to be to provide the finished clearance you will need AFTER the finishes are on. What's so complicated about that? If things are going to be off by 3-4" as you say, what makes you think finished dimensions to 1/8" tolerance are going to save the day? The drywall goes on AFTER the studs are up. Telling the framer where the drywall is does him no good since the drywall isn't there yet!
Like archanonymous says, I gave myself an inch or two.
Spend some time on a job site, particularly residential, and you will understand how half-assed the construction process really is. Buildings aren't built in a sterile lab by college graduates with white doctors' smocks. It's a fucking mess when it goes up.
So if you need 5-0" clear, you dimension to place the stud at 4'-11 3/8"? Sounds like a lot of fun but I'll pass.
If you dimension to face of stud, is that the line that is drawn in your plans? Or do you draw another line 5/8" away from the stud for the gyp and print it at 1/8" scale and then get mad when the contractor can't see what you are dimensioning to because you can't even see it?
geezer, you seem overly emotional about it. Maybe your projects are a mess because your drawings are a mess (see above.)
One of my problems with programs like Tulane Urban Build or Auburn Rural Studio is that while students get to actually build a house (which is awesome, and necessary) they do it with 10-15 other highly-educated (mostly) middle or upper-class kids.
Working in the trades on actual job sites is so much crazier. I can't even keep track of all the crazy shit I've seen working summers through HS and College in construction. From trash filling up wall cavities to drinking on site, jerkin off in the port-a-let, insane injuries, guys who couldn't add fractions, etc...
There are definitely really smart guys that love what they do and do it well, but there is little incentive for them to stay in the field when you can work as a crew chief or estimator if you have half a brain.
I used to put a huge asterisk next to absolute dimensions. Maybe an exclamation point would be better….point is, pick your fights and let the rest fly.
Arch, how about those stains that keep bleeding through the paint on the basement wall...exactly where you discovered everybody was taking a shit in the block cores...are you taking about those guys?
Maybe in Appalachia. New general note for you guys: No shitting, jizzing, or pissing in wall cavities.
tntt: If I needed 5-0" clear, I certainly wouldn't make the stud dimension 4'-11 3/8". That would mean that I would have 4'11" clear after the drywall was applied. Things get smaller after drywalling, not larger. No, I would make the stud dimension at least 5'1" or 5-2". BTW single family houses (the OP's project) are 1/2" drywall except for a few places.
I drew the studs as 3 1/2", and did not ever try to draw the drywall in plan, since the 1/2" ink lines would obviously run together when the drawings were plotted at 1/4" scale, and would therefore be meaningless.
This is the problem with the computer. It leads you to believe that if you can draw something to 1/64" you can build it that way. ( I'm exaggerating to make a point). The zoom feature leads to the Mr. Magoo syndrome. The nice thing about hand drafting was that it kind of simulated the inaccuracy of the real world.
One of my first experiences after school (before license) was spent doing field inspections on a big FHA project, with a dubious GC. The shit that goes on is unbelievable. Duels on Friday afternoon with ramset guns were particularly stimulating.
I can assure you my drawings were not a mess.
I'm not emotional in the least, although I will admit I've never had a reputation for suffering fools gladly.
My mistake with the math. I'm glad I don't work on residential, sounds like hell.
Not hell, just reality. Same general principle applies in commercial, however. Construction is just messy. You're taking a bunch of pieces of material, sometimes semi-liquid like concrete, and attaching them together on an empty piece of land, in varying weather conditions, using workers of varying intelligence, education, experience, motivation, English proficiency, and sobriety and hoping it all comes out. Sometimes it's a miracle the fucking thing doesn't blow down in the first wind.
life is hell.
This is relevant, and excellent diversion on a friday.
He knows his rights. Must be an attorney.
Hilarious, archanonymous. Love it.
"Sometimes it's a miracle the fucking thing doesn't blow down in the first wind." It’s the same reason I don’t ride on Ferris wheels...I know too much.
When I'm dimensioning I always think back to my 10+ years as a high-end residential carpenter. I'm very good at math but when you are framing in the heat, cold, or rain, with a tight deadline and money on the line if you make a mistake, it really, really sucks when the architect is lazy about dimensioning. When half your jobs have 1/2" GWB and half have 5/8", or when it changes from room to room, and you are trying to keep five guys productive, unnecessary mistakes happen.
A couple of years ago I did a short stint as a site supervisor for a Passive House builder. The house was designed by a tony NY architecture firm and was beautiful, but the dimensioning was just horrible. Nothing was clear, basically everything was "VIF." To cut to the chase, I allowed all the windows and doors to be installed in the wrong plane, thanks to a lazy architect. I vowed to never dip my toes in construction again, and to always keep in mind what the guy on site NEEDS in order to do his job quickly and efficiently.
If your wall studs are varying by more than 1/16" you need to find a better supplier or spec a better grade. Floor joists may vary more than that but those dimensions are usually less critical, and it seems like more higher end work uses engineered joists anyway.
Do you indicate ceiling height to the face of ceiling framing, or do you call out the finished ceiling height to the bottom of the gyp? from the subfloor or finished floor?
I specify how the project will be built, so I dimension the height of the wall framing, typically from top of floor sheathing/bottom of bottom plate to top of top plate. I also note the finished ceiling dimensions from flooring to ceiling on the sections but that's just for reference.
Do you call out the height of light switches/outlets to the bottom of the electrical box?
I usually just write the height to center line of devices in the electrical symbol key, and note that it is to the center of box, as different electricians do it differently. Sometimes I refer to the interior elevations and dimension them there.
Do you dimension to king studs, jack studs, or rough openings?
Center lines, and list the RO's on the window and door schedule, along with the height from subfloor to bottom of header.
I specify how the project will be built, so I dimension the height of the wall framing, typically from top of floor sheathing/bottom of bottom plate to top of top plate. I also note the finished ceiling dimensions from flooring to ceiling on the sections but that's just for reference.
Wouldn't you need to specify the size the studs need to be cut at if you were really trying to help me (the framer) not do any math? Can't you figure out how much space your bottom plate and top plate take up and put it on the drawings?
I usually just write the height to center line of devices in the electrical symbol key, and note that it is to the center of box
I'm not sure how I can make my tape measure hook onto the center line of an electrical box. Do they make electrical boxes with center lines easily marked?
Center lines, and list the RO's on the window and door schedule, along with the height from subfloor to bottom of header.
Oh no, more math to figure out where the center of an opening is when I'm pulling a tape from the end of the wall. Why can't you give me sizes I need to cut my king studs, jack studs, header, etc.? Urrgh, I'm just a dumb framer who can't do math ... what am I supposed to do?
E_I,
You would probably do that in a wall section. Experienced framers will subject wall height from bottom of sill plate to top plate. ~3" for non-load bearing and ~4-1/2" for load-bearing wall. Do note the ~ for approximate as you may need to adjust a little for actual thickness of the lumber used such as some uses dimensions like 1-5/8" x 3-5/8" for a nom. 2x4 instead of 1-1/2" x 3-1/2".
Experienced builders know what they are doing.
Remember, the junior framers or 'green horns' usually are not the ones looking at the building plans. Usually a foreman or someone of that level with construction experience does that and instruct the framers who are doing the grunt work of driving nails and all.
In most decent construction crews are supervised by experienced builders who have had their years in and they supervise the team.
If you really need to get that nitty gritty, you may optionally choose to do framing plans of floors and roofs and also may do framing elevations (wall version of the framing plans for floors.).
Balkins, I was being over-the-top facetious to prove a point.
FYI, experienced builders know what they are doing better than you, and will try to use precut studs when possible (for example 92-5/8" instead of 96" where you want nominal 8-foot-high ceilings). Saves time cutting every 96" stud to length and makes for less construction waste. If for some reason there is a strange ceiling height and precut studs won't work there are other tricks too.
... but thanks for playing.
E_I,
Precut studs........ OK... want a cookie?
Sure, if you want to make the wall 8'-1 1/8"
It makes sense for that.
HOWEVER, walls are't always for nom. 8' high ceilings. Then you think beyond that. Those other tricks is no trick at all.
I've done material lists before with very efficient material use. A little saw dust and mostly thin slivers.
Wood shouldn't vary more than 1/16th.... What grade is that? I don't remember what I ordered, most of it was alright, but the 12' long treated lumber was a mess. Not sure anything was w/ in 1/16th tho.
The best thing is to keep it simple the less steps and efficient the better. I always tell my guys as a way of illustration and to get them in the right mindset is to think of building the project with just one cut. Of course that is impossible but the idea is to get from point A to point B as efficiently as possible. I have found that usually the easiest way is the best way and takes care of everything from time management to material usage to quality.
I like face of stud measurements but if it is outside of wall to the center of the first wall and then center to center from there it is just an easy calculation to subtract 1/2 the wall thickness to get the edge for our line snapping measurement. And center to center is the same as edge to edge. But it is just another step or cut that doesn't need to be taken in the field.
.And don't use finish wall measurements we have enough to think about without going to the finish schedule look up the room number find the finish material and subtract it from the measurement. And also I personally would look at the wall section that would be there because you all are good archi's to check for inconsistencies. All that just to snap a line, cracker please!
That said I have some pet peeves that I take into account concerning the finish material. One is where a shelf or shelves are next to a sheetrocked opening where the top of the shelf is to be at the opening. Say top of shelf @ 7' 6" the same as the opening. Now if you frame them both at 7'6" and sheetrock them there will be a 1" difference and look like crap. What I do is frame the shelf at 7'5" to account for the rock on top of the shelf and the bottom of the opening, afterwards it all lines up and looks like someone thought about it.
It is clear to me from some of the responses that some of you guys need to get out in the field and put some nailbags on. And not just work on a crew either you need to be accountable for making a profit or you don't get paid. I guarantee your attitude will change and start making your drawings more concise and efficient.
I would much rather work with someone like Ms. Sink or Mr. Wood Guy than Mr. Tintt because they have the correct attitude a team attitude. Case in point from Mr. Tintt So if you need 5-0" clear, you dimension to place the stud at 4'-11 3/8"? Sounds like a lot of fun but I'll pass. " I work with these kind of dimensions everyday it is not that hard. And because you can't be bothered to work to the stud face I have to subtract the finish material? Yea well I charge for my time and I will charge a Pain In the Ass fee to work with your drawings. You may not think that your subs charge this but believe me they do. It is just like when I build for a Professional Engineer I charge more because I know they will be a pain.
Also from Mr. Tintt "If you dimension to face of stud, is that the line that is drawn in your plans? Or do you draw another line 5/8" away from the stud for the gyp and print it at 1/8" scale and then get mad when the contractor can't see what you are dimensioning to because you can't even see it?"
You need to learn to draw better plans. You show the rock and the rest of the wall assembly in a section.
Man Architects! AmIright!! HA
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