i guess this is a real philosophical and almost religous issue for architects........ i still can't believe there are people who think there is a right way, but then again i can't believe half the morons on planet earth who claim their god is right over someone elses.
If I ever have the unfortunate circumstance of working with you Mr. Rant I would dimension the way you wanted. However, anybody who needs things their way and can throw a fit about it like you just did is a ticking bomb ready to blame everyone else for their own problems. I bet life is hard for you.
Talked to two contractors last night, both said they prefer face of finish. Said they like to know where the finish is and work backwards. Said it goes fast, easy, no mistakes. They like my plans. I'm ok. Thanks for the heads up though.
we don't only produce construction drawings for the framer. they're also used as a way of communicating the owner's intentions, they server as a contract document between the owner and contractor, they are used by plans reviewers to check for code compliance, coordination for other vendors such as furniture companies, budget estimating, and really a lot of other things. sometimes the back of the set is even used for pictionary (though room dimensions are not critical in that application.)
if go to it was a framer and it was very important to him to have face of stud dimensions, that would be between him and the general contractor that he has a contract with, right? so he would have to complain to the gc and the gc would have to go to me, probably through the owner, so that he could get the set of drawings he wants. i don't want to minimize the importance of go to it having the proper documents for his trade, but it kind of sounds like a lot more people are put out trying to cater to him, compared to having him go to the trouble of figuring out where a wall is supposed to be.
i typically try to include wall dimensions on my dimension strings, so you don't have to check the wall type to verify what the wall thickness is.
Tintt and curt, you just touched on my biggest issue with the profession - that everyone is looking out for themselves and their bottom line amid such a litigious society that we can't come together to do things in a mutually beneficial way.
I am happy to dimension differently if the person building it prefers something specific, but the way contracts are structured you rarely know who is building it until long after it has been drawn. BIM was supposed to solve some of this, but it has done nothing more than give us a different way to produce the same paper drawings we always have...
>I specify how the project will be built, so I dimension the height of the wall framing, typically from top of floor sheathing/bottom of bottom plate to top of top plate. I also note the finished ceiling dimensions from flooring to ceiling on the sections but that's just for reference.
>>Wouldn't you need to specify the size the studs need to be cut at if you were really trying to help me (the framer) not do any math? Can't you figure out how much space your bottom plate and top plate take up and put it on the drawings?
>>>There are many fewer ceiling heights than wall layouts. I balance what I think the framer will need with what will keep the drawing legible.
>I usually just write the height to center line of devices in the electrical symbol key, and note that it is to the center of box
>>I'm not sure how I can make my tape measure hook onto the center line of an electrical box. Do they make electrical boxes with center lines easily marked?
>>>Boxes differ in height, even within one project, and I am usually more concerned with keeping everything the same height than with exactly where the top of the box ends up. Why would you hook onto the box anyway? Every electrician I know pulls from the floor and marks the stud with a sharpie. When they know it's important, they (or the GC) will set up a laser to hit a level line.
>Center lines, and list the RO's on the window and door schedule, along with the height from subfloor to bottom of header.
>>Oh no, more math to figure out where the center of an opening is when I'm pulling a tape from the end of the wall. Why can't you give me sizes I need to cut my king studs, jack studs, header, etc.? Urrgh, I'm just a dumb framer who can't do math ... what am I supposed to do?
>>>In my experience, windows often change slightly very late in the process. Sometimes a manufacturer change, or sometimes from all wood to aluminum clad, with slightly different dimensions. When it's critical exactly where the edge of a window starts, I will dimension to that point, but for most windows the center lines are more important for the design. Plus not everyone uses the factory RO's.
I'm sensing hostility. I don't really care; I'm just trying to share my perspective, having built a few hundred projects and then designing a few hundred more for contractors who consistently say they appreciate how I present my plans. (I'm not saying that I'm the most experienced person on here by any means.) Much of my experience was at a design/build company, where there was incentive for the plans to work well, because that meant we made more money.
For what it's worth, I also worked for a time at a panelizing facility, where we did dimension every last item that went into the project. The panels are accurate to within 1/16", so I'm used to being accurate and expect that the builders are too.
How do you all dimension your foundations? In conventional, residential construction, the outside of framing conveniently aligns with the outside of the foundation wall. There are plenty of exceptions, especially now with all the different wall and foundation configurations. Do you make your GC do the math there too?
there are different types of foundations and different types of wall construction. typically edge of foundation is measured from the grid line, but sometimes it is offset from where the grid line is dimensioned. also, it seems to me grade beams are often completely buried, so they don't form them with nice dimensioned edges. which is also why edge of slab insulation is often kind of pointless.
i've had cases where measuring slab edge on a metal deck was difficult because the slab edge didn't necessarily align right with the structure or the walls. do you dimension that with the steel person in mind, who has to provide the bent plate, or the person on site doing the welding?
once i had a client ask for drawings with metric dimensions. the contractor wasn't going to use a metric tape measure or buy door frames with metric dimensions. had to do everything twice :(
i always have a foundation plan even in single family with the person doing the formwork and pouring in mind. which is a good point Curt. it helps to sometimes breakout details for various trades. sometimes I add a "Structural" set to my arch set that addresses only items like framing, rebae placement, and specific details that ignore the cladding and finishes. since the entire detail is done in CAD anyway, its just a matter of turning laters on and off and showing info the steel person or whoever needs......so curtkram, who do you have in mind when drawing is the point I think on how you dimension?
Wood Guy, no hostility intended (I like most of your posts on the forum and am glad you contribute). I was attempting to rebut your answers in a facetious way to illustrate that in responding to Lee Robert's string of questions, your answers/solutions still require subs to do math. Again, his point ...
"My point is, subs will have to do math, you can't get around this. You will have to trust that the trades-people you work with can do their job (better than we can) at some point."
So if the point is to make it so subs don't have to do math, your methods are failing.
Most of my construction experience is as a framer and we all could figure out how to lay out a building regardless of how the plans were drawn. If fact we probably took longer figuring out how the plans were dimensioned (face of stud or face of finish) than it took us to do the math. Moral of the story ... doesn't matter how you dimension as long as it is clear and straightforward.
^^ Well it does “matter”…back to my story about 16/24…trade guys get used to repeating things over & over to avoid thinking (I wouldn’t want to think either under the conditions they work) and the next thing you know it’s “Oh, sorry, we always do it that way…” Not advocating standards, but it wouldn’t hurt the situation….telling trade guys they made a mistake is like telling a Mafia guy you’re going to late with a payment.
"NOTE: Dimensions shown are to face of stud unless noted otherwise. Exterior walls are 2x6's at 16"o.c. unless noted otherwise. Interior walls and partitions are 2x4's at 16" o.c. unless noted otherwise"
Put the note right under the plan title. Takes 30 seconds. Nobody has to think. Done.
I am terrible at arguing and I didn't mean to sound like I was ranting or personally attacking someone that was not my intention I guess my written communication skills are lacking unfortunately.
Mr. Tntt it just sounded like you were grouping the knuckle draggers in with the good tradesmen and GCs which is unfair. But I do stand by my statement of architects having field experience running a profitable business. Or design build but actually build, get out there and cut wood. It would add to the respect that is deserved. And I have done my own drawings on projects and know the difficulty involved thus my repeated respect for architects.
Don't be mad I would be glad to build off of your drawings. Draw them anyway you want I will figure it out and guarantee a great build. If you can draw it I can build it. It just sounded like Ms. Donna and Mr. Wood Guy draw the way I build already but hey I can work with anyone.
go do it, I don't know what you are talking about. And I'm not mad. Maybe next time I'm in Albuquirky you can buy me a beer at la Cumbre, and perhaps we would communicate better in person. Regards, Ms. tintt.
I've seen builders and framers fuck up things that are beautifully documented on the drawings, and I've seen others build everything just right from the shittiest set of drawings you can imagine. The variance of ability between framers is as great as the range of talent among architects.
It sometimes make me wonder if any of our efforts really mean very much in the end.
^ It’s all fine if you find the right guy, but just about the time you find him he goes broke and gets a job in a bank. I honestly feel to get consistent quality with this kind of thing it needs to be prefab in a controlled environment…been following some good modular builders…what’s been missing up to recently is good design and I know 3 that are owned by architects - quality, sustainability & good design wrapped in one…repetition helps too.
We are all in the same boat. As a builder it is getting worse every year to find good people to hire that try to good work. I call out measurements of 11/16" and 13/16" and they look at me like I am crazy. Now I know that you can't hit those measurements in the field but it is the idea of try for perfection and attention to detail.
Mr.Geezr it does matter we have to walk away and know we tried our best for the client and also get a good reputation to stay in business.
Mr. Carrera I am afraid that you are correct the future of building is to be more automation. I keep hoping for the day when builders / carpenters that can cut in a roof or cut stairs will be in such short supply that we will be driving up to job sites in Audis and BMWs.
^ Think weather gets in the way too, guys are so hungry how can they see 13/16" on a tape in the rain? Also the recession is no help, it purges the pool and we have to start over every few years. We have Mennonite & Amish communities nearby and they are wonderful people…they don’t go-out-of-business because they aren’t in-business in the first place; really…unions hate these guys, all the more reason to love them. The good normal guys park themselves at self-performing GC’s to weather out recessions.
Tough to build a McMansion in a factory, but the day of reckoning is coming on those things, don’t know if I’ll live to see that day…but Warren Buffet didn’t buy KB Homes for nothing, he knows what’s coming.
^ We have to strive to do it right, and just brace ourselves when the problems hit in spite of our best efforts. The definition of good design should include simplicity and relative ease of construction.
I agree that panelization and such can help up to a point. But beyond a certain size, components are too big to be trucked to the field. They have to be site built. And you rarely save much money in the end because what you save in fabrication and waste you piss away in transportation. And that doesn't address the problem of fixed carrying costs on a factory and warehouse building. Building on site at least allows you to use the site itself for storage and fabrication.
I want the framer to think beyond, "is the wall hitting the right number?" He should be thinking, "is the wall actually in the right place given what it's intended for?"
Isn't that the architects job? Maybe I don't understand what you're saying. Are you talking about remodel work?
(just coming back to this after a few days) geezertect, yes, it's the architect's job to start that process, but if the sub doesn't give a shit, why bother having an architect who cares waste a ton of time thinking through the details carefully. So, I guess what I'm getting at is: try to work with like-minded GC's who are trying to do the right thing, instead of the least amount for the job. I advocate for the client getting a GC who cares because the set I produce requires that to be successful. My metric for construction value isn't about cheapest/fastest, but about care & integrity for a reasonable cost. So, maybe I'm an outlier here...
Sounds good but most clients want to take the cheapest bid. Sometimes you can't talk them out of it. The architect needs to put the wall in the right spot so that as long as the framer does what he is told on the drawings things will work out. Then, if they don't you have grounds for making them do it over. The architect is still the one on the hook in the end. That is why you have to make the drawings very clear and unambiguous. Otherwise, you as the drafter of the document (a legal document incorporated into the contract by reference) are on the hook for the cost of doing something over.
people have been trying to figure out a prefab system since bucky. they still talk about how shipping containers are the new thing, or people can live in dog houses. there just isn't anything there.
legos are the future. everybody loves legos. pretty soon, it wall be sips. otherwise, if you want people who do the work to give a shit, the people who hire them have to give a shit about them. quid pro quo. it's always been that way.
^^ true to a point, it’s just down to transportation cost….Jeff Bezos will solve it, maybe drones :)….wouldn’t laugh, my first job in 1970 was with Scholz Homes who pioneered penalization after WWII…moved into modular that I worked on, worked on the first manufacturing plant…Don Scholz said he was going to be the “General Motors of homes”….been searching for a rendering we had that showed an aerial shot of a subdivision with multiple cargo helicopters flying them in…want it so I can send it to Bezos. It has been dreamt about for decades, but the point is, it’s still being dreamt about….hard to believe that the way we build things hasn’t changed in over 100 years.
Modular and panelized construction has gotten a bad rap in many circles, but it can make a lot of sense in certain situations.
I recently worked with a startup, the only panelizing facility in the country dedicated to Passive House construction. (And I still consult there on certain projects.) Because building Passive Houses is more complicated than the average home, requiring a lot of attention to detail, panelizing solves a lot of problems. Trucking is an expense, as is a crane (or helicopter) and at the end of the day their system isn't less expensive than site-building a similar product, but time frames are drastically reduced, going from a foundation to dried-in, insulated, air-tested shell in less than two weeks in most cases, and it doesn't cost any more than building something equivalent on site. Our airtightness numbers are routinely 2-3 times tighter than the Passive House requirement of 0.6 ACH50.
If you're interested in the system, the only building component system outside of Europe to achieve Passive House Component certification, check them out here: http://www.ecocor.us/.
To make sure this isn't considered advertising, I'll also mention another panelizing company that has led the industry: http://unityhomes.com/, and friends of mine who design and build high performance, high quality modular homes at a reasonable price: http://brightbuilthome.com/.
interesting - back when i was doing my stint at the exhibit house I had an idea that they could use their giant warehouse assembly area and cnc plywood router to make sips panels in the spring and summer, a time when they were basically shut down.
I never did get around to approaching the ownership about that and now I barely have time to tie my own shoes, but its fun to think about the possibilities.
Residential builder here who has also worked in the commercial field when i was just starting. I came across this discussion by accident. Here is my 2 cents.
If its a commercial project. 1/4'' to small an opening will absolutely cause you to fail an inspection. We need to know the size you want exactly!! Commercial framers absolutely read the plans.
Residential projects... we rarely even look at the plans. If it's 12' x 16' room. Then when I am framing a 12' x 16' room. I dont care about any drywall thickness or anything else.
In a nut shell...... Commercial finish to finish, Residential Stud to Stud!!!
The contractor will frame however I said so as per my drawings and in mm. None of those inchies and fetties freedom units. Besides that, dims to face of stud if in wood and to c/l if in steel if my default scheme. Interior critical to finish are very clearly indicated.
We dim to F.O. stud. Except in very specific instances no dimensions are less than 1/2" (freedom fractions forever). Every time I see a floor plan with 1/8" dimensions to studs I poke an intern with a blunt arrow. (Just kidding)
Almost 8 years ago we first aired this episode! I’ve worked on a lot of residential since then. I get it, they can’t/don’t read the plans and will fuck up anything and everything they touch. Experienced my first stud cavity ahem “deposits” too. What a job.
Feb 13, 24 7:49 am ·
·
gwharton
Hey Wilma, I've been meaning to ask you: are you related to Richard Fitzwell?
Wilma, this is hilarious to me because I made this post regarding a drafting competition I did in high school, and it facilitated this large conversation that I’m only now able to understand. What episode was this for? I’m currently taking the AREs with 2 left and am nearly licensed. Cheers!
Feb 13, 24 10:26 am ·
·
Wilma Buttfit
That should be “episode”. Hope you are enjoying the journey!
Wall to Wall Dimensions on a Floorplan
i guess this is a real philosophical and almost religous issue for architects........ i still can't believe there are people who think there is a right way, but then again i can't believe half the morons on planet earth who claim their god is right over someone elses.
If I ever have the unfortunate circumstance of working with you Mr. Rant I would dimension the way you wanted. However, anybody who needs things their way and can throw a fit about it like you just did is a ticking bomb ready to blame everyone else for their own problems. I bet life is hard for you.
Talked to two contractors last night, both said they prefer face of finish. Said they like to know where the finish is and work backwards. Said it goes fast, easy, no mistakes. They like my plans. I'm ok. Thanks for the heads up though.
we don't only produce construction drawings for the framer. they're also used as a way of communicating the owner's intentions, they server as a contract document between the owner and contractor, they are used by plans reviewers to check for code compliance, coordination for other vendors such as furniture companies, budget estimating, and really a lot of other things. sometimes the back of the set is even used for pictionary (though room dimensions are not critical in that application.)
if go to it was a framer and it was very important to him to have face of stud dimensions, that would be between him and the general contractor that he has a contract with, right? so he would have to complain to the gc and the gc would have to go to me, probably through the owner, so that he could get the set of drawings he wants. i don't want to minimize the importance of go to it having the proper documents for his trade, but it kind of sounds like a lot more people are put out trying to cater to him, compared to having him go to the trouble of figuring out where a wall is supposed to be.
i typically try to include wall dimensions on my dimension strings, so you don't have to check the wall type to verify what the wall thickness is.
Tintt and curt, you just touched on my biggest issue with the profession - that everyone is looking out for themselves and their bottom line amid such a litigious society that we can't come together to do things in a mutually beneficial way.
I am happy to dimension differently if the person building it prefers something specific, but the way contracts are structured you rarely know who is building it until long after it has been drawn. BIM was supposed to solve some of this, but it has done nothing more than give us a different way to produce the same paper drawings we always have...
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Mar 11, 16 4:50 pm
>I specify how the project will be built, so I dimension the height of the wall framing, typically from top of floor sheathing/bottom of bottom plate to top of top plate. I also note the finished ceiling dimensions from flooring to ceiling on the sections but that's just for reference.
>>Wouldn't you need to specify the size the studs need to be cut at if you were really trying to help me (the framer) not do any math? Can't you figure out how much space your bottom plate and top plate take up and put it on the drawings?
>>>There are many fewer ceiling heights than wall layouts. I balance what I think the framer will need with what will keep the drawing legible.
>I usually just write the height to center line of devices in the electrical symbol key, and note that it is to the center of box
>>I'm not sure how I can make my tape measure hook onto the center line of an electrical box. Do they make electrical boxes with center lines easily marked?
>>>Boxes differ in height, even within one project, and I am usually more concerned with keeping everything the same height than with exactly where the top of the box ends up. Why would you hook onto the box anyway? Every electrician I know pulls from the floor and marks the stud with a sharpie. When they know it's important, they (or the GC) will set up a laser to hit a level line.
>Center lines, and list the RO's on the window and door schedule, along with the height from subfloor to bottom of header.
>>Oh no, more math to figure out where the center of an opening is when I'm pulling a tape from the end of the wall. Why can't you give me sizes I need to cut my king studs, jack studs, header, etc.? Urrgh, I'm just a dumb framer who can't do math ... what am I supposed to do?
>>>In my experience, windows often change slightly very late in the process. Sometimes a manufacturer change, or sometimes from all wood to aluminum clad, with slightly different dimensions. When it's critical exactly where the edge of a window starts, I will dimension to that point, but for most windows the center lines are more important for the design. Plus not everyone uses the factory RO's.
I'm sensing hostility. I don't really care; I'm just trying to share my perspective, having built a few hundred projects and then designing a few hundred more for contractors who consistently say they appreciate how I present my plans. (I'm not saying that I'm the most experienced person on here by any means.) Much of my experience was at a design/build company, where there was incentive for the plans to work well, because that meant we made more money.
For what it's worth, I also worked for a time at a panelizing facility, where we did dimension every last item that went into the project. The panels are accurate to within 1/16", so I'm used to being accurate and expect that the builders are too.
How do you all dimension your foundations? In conventional, residential construction, the outside of framing conveniently aligns with the outside of the foundation wall. There are plenty of exceptions, especially now with all the different wall and foundation configurations. Do you make your GC do the math there too?
there are different types of foundations and different types of wall construction. typically edge of foundation is measured from the grid line, but sometimes it is offset from where the grid line is dimensioned. also, it seems to me grade beams are often completely buried, so they don't form them with nice dimensioned edges. which is also why edge of slab insulation is often kind of pointless.
i've had cases where measuring slab edge on a metal deck was difficult because the slab edge didn't necessarily align right with the structure or the walls. do you dimension that with the steel person in mind, who has to provide the bent plate, or the person on site doing the welding?
once i had a client ask for drawings with metric dimensions. the contractor wasn't going to use a metric tape measure or buy door frames with metric dimensions. had to do everything twice :(
i always have a foundation plan even in single family with the person doing the formwork and pouring in mind. which is a good point Curt. it helps to sometimes breakout details for various trades. sometimes I add a "Structural" set to my arch set that addresses only items like framing, rebae placement, and specific details that ignore the cladding and finishes. since the entire detail is done in CAD anyway, its just a matter of turning laters on and off and showing info the steel person or whoever needs......so curtkram, who do you have in mind when drawing is the point I think on how you dimension?
Wood Guy, no hostility intended (I like most of your posts on the forum and am glad you contribute). I was attempting to rebut your answers in a facetious way to illustrate that in responding to Lee Robert's string of questions, your answers/solutions still require subs to do math. Again, his point ...
"My point is, subs will have to do math, you can't get around this. You will have to trust that the trades-people you work with can do their job (better than we can) at some point."
So if the point is to make it so subs don't have to do math, your methods are failing.
Most of my construction experience is as a framer and we all could figure out how to lay out a building regardless of how the plans were drawn. If fact we probably took longer figuring out how the plans were dimensioned (face of stud or face of finish) than it took us to do the math. Moral of the story ... doesn't matter how you dimension as long as it is clear and straightforward.
It's all good. As far as I know you're all just a bunch of 14 year olds anyway. ;-)
^^ Well it does “matter”…back to my story about 16/24…trade guys get used to repeating things over & over to avoid thinking (I wouldn’t want to think either under the conditions they work) and the next thing you know it’s “Oh, sorry, we always do it that way…” Not advocating standards, but it wouldn’t hurt the situation….telling trade guys they made a mistake is like telling a Mafia guy you’re going to late with a payment.
"NOTE: Dimensions shown are to face of stud unless noted otherwise. Exterior walls are 2x6's at 16"o.c. unless noted otherwise. Interior walls and partitions are 2x4's at 16" o.c. unless noted otherwise"
Put the note right under the plan title. Takes 30 seconds. Nobody has to think. Done.
Yeah, I’ll put that right underneath my big 24” OC! box note and hope for the best :):)
I am terrible at arguing and I didn't mean to sound like I was ranting or personally attacking someone that was not my intention I guess my written communication skills are lacking unfortunately.
Mr. Tntt it just sounded like you were grouping the knuckle draggers in with the good tradesmen and GCs which is unfair. But I do stand by my statement of architects having field experience running a profitable business. Or design build but actually build, get out there and cut wood. It would add to the respect that is deserved. And I have done my own drawings on projects and know the difficulty involved thus my repeated respect for architects.
Don't be mad I would be glad to build off of your drawings. Draw them anyway you want I will figure it out and guarantee a great build. If you can draw it I can build it. It just sounded like Ms. Donna and Mr. Wood Guy draw the way I build already but hey I can work with anyone.
No worries:) Remember we all are just trying to stay in control.
go do it, I don't know what you are talking about. And I'm not mad. Maybe next time I'm in Albuquirky you can buy me a beer at la Cumbre, and perhaps we would communicate better in person. Regards, Ms. tintt.
Carerra: I hear ya, believe me.
I've seen builders and framers fuck up things that are beautifully documented on the drawings, and I've seen others build everything just right from the shittiest set of drawings you can imagine. The variance of ability between framers is as great as the range of talent among architects.
It sometimes make me wonder if any of our efforts really mean very much in the end.
^ It’s all fine if you find the right guy, but just about the time you find him he goes broke and gets a job in a bank. I honestly feel to get consistent quality with this kind of thing it needs to be prefab in a controlled environment…been following some good modular builders…what’s been missing up to recently is good design and I know 3 that are owned by architects - quality, sustainability & good design wrapped in one…repetition helps too.
We are all in the same boat. As a builder it is getting worse every year to find good people to hire that try to good work. I call out measurements of 11/16" and 13/16" and they look at me like I am crazy. Now I know that you can't hit those measurements in the field but it is the idea of try for perfection and attention to detail.
Mr.Geezr it does matter we have to walk away and know we tried our best for the client and also get a good reputation to stay in business.
Mr. Carrera I am afraid that you are correct the future of building is to be more automation. I keep hoping for the day when builders / carpenters that can cut in a roof or cut stairs will be in such short supply that we will be driving up to job sites in Audis and BMWs.
There is always the lottery!
^ Think weather gets in the way too, guys are so hungry how can they see 13/16" on a tape in the rain? Also the recession is no help, it purges the pool and we have to start over every few years. We have Mennonite & Amish communities nearby and they are wonderful people…they don’t go-out-of-business because they aren’t in-business in the first place; really…unions hate these guys, all the more reason to love them. The good normal guys park themselves at self-performing GC’s to weather out recessions.
Tough to build a McMansion in a factory, but the day of reckoning is coming on those things, don’t know if I’ll live to see that day…but Warren Buffet didn’t buy KB Homes for nothing, he knows what’s coming.
^ We have to strive to do it right, and just brace ourselves when the problems hit in spite of our best efforts. The definition of good design should include simplicity and relative ease of construction.
I agree that panelization and such can help up to a point. But beyond a certain size, components are too big to be trucked to the field. They have to be site built. And you rarely save much money in the end because what you save in fabrication and waste you piss away in transportation. And that doesn't address the problem of fixed carrying costs on a factory and warehouse building. Building on site at least allows you to use the site itself for storage and fabrication.
I want the framer to think beyond, "is the wall hitting the right number?" He should be thinking, "is the wall actually in the right place given what it's intended for?"
Isn't that the architects job? Maybe I don't understand what you're saying. Are you talking about remodel work?
(just coming back to this after a few days) geezertect, yes, it's the architect's job to start that process, but if the sub doesn't give a shit, why bother having an architect who cares waste a ton of time thinking through the details carefully. So, I guess what I'm getting at is: try to work with like-minded GC's who are trying to do the right thing, instead of the least amount for the job. I advocate for the client getting a GC who cares because the set I produce requires that to be successful. My metric for construction value isn't about cheapest/fastest, but about care & integrity for a reasonable cost. So, maybe I'm an outlier here...
Sounds good but most clients want to take the cheapest bid. Sometimes you can't talk them out of it. The architect needs to put the wall in the right spot so that as long as the framer does what he is told on the drawings things will work out. Then, if they don't you have grounds for making them do it over. The architect is still the one on the hook in the end. That is why you have to make the drawings very clear and unambiguous. Otherwise, you as the drafter of the document (a legal document incorporated into the contract by reference) are on the hook for the cost of doing something over.
people have been trying to figure out a prefab system since bucky. they still talk about how shipping containers are the new thing, or people can live in dog houses. there just isn't anything there.
legos are the future. everybody loves legos. pretty soon, it wall be sips. otherwise, if you want people who do the work to give a shit, the people who hire them have to give a shit about them. quid pro quo. it's always been that way.
ummmm... curt. legos and minecraft were invented by Bjarke Ingles, that is the future.
^^ true to a point, it’s just down to transportation cost….Jeff Bezos will solve it, maybe drones :)….wouldn’t laugh, my first job in 1970 was with Scholz Homes who pioneered penalization after WWII…moved into modular that I worked on, worked on the first manufacturing plant…Don Scholz said he was going to be the “General Motors of homes”….been searching for a rendering we had that showed an aerial shot of a subdivision with multiple cargo helicopters flying them in…want it so I can send it to Bezos. It has been dreamt about for decades, but the point is, it’s still being dreamt about….hard to believe that the way we build things hasn’t changed in over 100 years.
cold fusion is also being dreamt about. maybe someday.
"it wall be sips" was supposed to be read "it will all be sips" above. a southern drawl is coming through in my typing i guess. bjarke forever!
Modular and panelized construction has gotten a bad rap in many circles, but it can make a lot of sense in certain situations.
I recently worked with a startup, the only panelizing facility in the country dedicated to Passive House construction. (And I still consult there on certain projects.) Because building Passive Houses is more complicated than the average home, requiring a lot of attention to detail, panelizing solves a lot of problems. Trucking is an expense, as is a crane (or helicopter) and at the end of the day their system isn't less expensive than site-building a similar product, but time frames are drastically reduced, going from a foundation to dried-in, insulated, air-tested shell in less than two weeks in most cases, and it doesn't cost any more than building something equivalent on site. Our airtightness numbers are routinely 2-3 times tighter than the Passive House requirement of 0.6 ACH50.
If you're interested in the system, the only building component system outside of Europe to achieve Passive House Component certification, check them out here: http://www.ecocor.us/.
To make sure this isn't considered advertising, I'll also mention another panelizing company that has led the industry: http://unityhomes.com/, and friends of mine who design and build high performance, high quality modular homes at a reasonable price: http://brightbuilthome.com/.
interesting - back when i was doing my stint at the exhibit house I had an idea that they could use their giant warehouse assembly area and cnc plywood router to make sips panels in the spring and summer, a time when they were basically shut down.
I never did get around to approaching the ownership about that and now I barely have time to tie my own shoes, but its fun to think about the possibilities.
Hey guys,
Residential builder here who has also worked in the commercial field when i was just starting. I came across this discussion by accident. Here is my 2 cents.
If its a commercial project. 1/4'' to small an opening will absolutely cause you to fail an inspection. We need to know the size you want exactly!! Commercial framers absolutely read the plans.
Residential projects... we rarely even look at the plans. If it's 12' x 16' room. Then when I am framing a 12' x 16' room. I dont care about any drywall thickness or anything else.
In a nut shell...... Commercial finish to finish, Residential Stud to Stud!!!
Hope this helps
The contractor will frame however I said so as per my drawings and in mm. None of those inchies and fetties freedom units. Besides that, dims to face of stud if in wood and to c/l if in steel if my default scheme. Interior critical to finish are very clearly indicated.
.
We dim to F.O. stud. Except in very specific instances no dimensions are less than 1/2" (freedom fractions forever). Every time I see a floor plan with 1/8" dimensions to studs I poke an intern with a blunt arrow. (Just kidding)
window openings are the trouble, some manufacturers come from the metric world.
METRIC! OMG! Socialism! ;D
Almost 8 years ago we first aired this episode! I’ve worked on a lot of residential since then. I get it, they can’t/don’t read the plans and will fuck up anything and everything they touch. Experienced my first stud cavity ahem “deposits” too. What a job.
Hey Wilma, I've been meaning to ask you: are you related to Richard Fitzwell?
:D
Wilma, this is hilarious to me because I made this post regarding a drafting competition I did in high school, and it facilitated this large conversation that I’m only now able to understand. What episode was this for? I’m currently taking the AREs with 2 left and am nearly licensed. Cheers!
That should be “episode”. Hope you are enjoying the journey!
def interesting to see the old comments
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