London

£70k or $70k?

Cambino said,

I was making 35k with basic benefits, at 24.  I am now with a commercial contractor making 60k with excellent benefits including dental, 401k, and company stock one year later at age 25.  

I will say one thing, my bosses were JERKS.  Their business goals were to make employees work as much as possible, while paying as little as possible.  They didn't fulfill promises on raises and made my life hell.  3 people quit within 6 months, I was the third.  I thought it was just me, but after moving on I truly realize what a positive work environment is, and I've been told that most architects work in a similar environment to what I experienced.  They finally wanted to give me a raise when I put in my two weeks and I told them to go shove it.

Yes.  And good for you.  As you should have told them to shove it.  And let me guess: that raise wasn't even close to what you are making now esp all benefits considered?

As the profession typically stands because of idiot architect owners pitting drafters against what would otherwise be fine architects, the profession doesn't deserve intelligent, ambitious, profitable employees.  It deserves what it has mostly: CAD slaves.

Just like DeTwan said,

...there is always some silly tard that is just as naïve as the next to take your low paying, stress filled days, making love to a computer, losser drafter lifestyle, because being an 'architect' is magnanimous!!!!!

you can make a lot as architect, if you do something valuable, like be a architect.......you can head over to the 1:1 podcast with Liam to see that I agree with much being said here,no point in rehashing it again.........

Honestly I think a good part of it is people like BRTN who devote themselves to a religion of architecture and believe you must suffer for it. So when anyone suggests there shouldn't be workplace suffering and ways to fix things bussiness wise, they are called fake and sell outs. This group refuses to let business creep into the holy temple of architecture and change it for the better. Also I think this leads to a situation where only the sheep remain in the profession further exacerbating the problem.

you fucking got it StarchitectAlpha! did it ever bother anyone- there is this understood dress code for architects of the faith, all black.....fuck that wear a hawaiin shirt to jury - be somebody, not a member of a cult.

Honestly I think a good part of it is people like BRTN who devote themselves to a religion of architecture and believe you must suffer for it. So when anyone suggests there shouldn't be workplace suffering and ways to fix things bussiness wise, they are called fake and sell outs. This group refuses to let business creep into the holy temple of architecture and change it for the better

That pretty well describes the typical architecture school faculty, where the brainwashing begins.

Supply and demand.

Yeah sorry I want to buy a house, have a family, and be able to afford to drive myself to work each day. This is real life, and eventually you need to be able to support yourself and a family, which, at least for me, is the most important part of life, I love architecture but grow up you have responsibilities. Selling out is what you're doing, being convinced that it's okay to suffer. Nobody deserves that.

I left architecture and quit my last job in the field back in 2013. I actually did it for my 30th birthday.  I decided to do so for the very points mentioned above Cambino. It is sad when you made more money fresh out of school back in 2006. I asked my current boss for a raise and he said that he didn't pay anyone in his office more than $36k a year, and I had a couple ppl above me. And a guy below me that was 46 working for $13.50 and new revit pretty well. It was scary...I had been working there for about 10 months and said F it to anything architecture after a non stop roller coaster after 2008.

I'm an artist...https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=434676693401410&set=p.434676693401410&type=3

I decided to be poor & happy, instead of poor & sad...

DeTwan, I think if I remember correctly you were in a bad region for architecture right?  because your stories sound like a really really bad market. 

At the very least, licensed architects make enough to live comfortably.

Not in NYC, SF, LA, or Boston... get out of these "scenes" and the grass can be greener.

cnr, you're way wrong.

In NYC it's easy to break the 6 figure mark if you're any good.

what the shit? 30k a year? my first job out of college was 50k. you guys are barking up the wrong trees, aren't marketing yourselves correctly, or have the wrong skill sets. 30k is absolute bottom of the barrel, not counting indentured servitude at UNStudio or OMA at 300 euros a month (or the highly coveted unpaid internships at Eisenman). 

I netted about $65-70k this year alone doing art...it's actually a pretty good gig if you know how to market yourself, and have good marketable art...did I mention I'm my own boss and I sleep at least 10 hours a day!

Cambino, I think it's a combination of factors.

At the bottom end, entry level salaries are low because
1-most fresh grads are uneconomical employees; they cost more than they produce for a year or more. It's telling that there is no appreciable difference in starting pay for m.arch or b.arch grads within a city.
2-a certain subset of students have a fame-complex that leads them to value work at a hot firm regardless of pay or practical value. Architecture may be one of the few fields where the most prestigious offices pay less. You don't see MBA's rushing to do an unpaid internship for Steven Cohen or something... it couldn't happen.

At the mid to upper level, as others have noted, salary differentials between archs and engs even out somewhere around 8-10 years' experience, where the more successful of both depend on management skills and personality to move ahead in a career. The number who get ahead due to innovative ideas and unique talent is vanishingly small in either profession, though engineers seem less concerned with making themselves one of those few.

At the very top end, I suspect architects can make more. Clients will pay a premium to have a work by a famous Architect, purely as a matter of prestige. While there are engineers recognized for their contribution to the development of the field, not many members of the public would recognize their names, or care. For engineers, it's hard to offer anything beyond done well, efficiently.

There are also broader economic factors to consider, aside from the skills or intentions of any individual architect or engineer. The biggest I think is that engineers simply take on a much larger category of work. Not all construction requires an architect, but nearly everything needs an engineer. Waste treatment, power plants, transit infrastructure - these are big expensive projects with big fees to which architects have little to contribute. They also tend to be less subject to the downside of the business cycle, which commercial and civic buildings generally are.

I don't see that last point as a matter of architecture failing as a profession. Most architects don't want to do engineering work, whether or not they are capable of it. If they did - they'd be engineers.

Ivorykeyboard: You scoff at $30K as if income is a static input to some life equation.  Get off that because wealth is about stretchy money, not finite sums.  Credit and zero income is often better than high income but no credit, and I don't mean some $10,000 credit card, Im talking $100K or more credit lines.  I've had years where I've made negative income, a loss.  I would have killed for $30K, however I had credit and could stretch myself and wait it out.  The biggest problem the next generation faces is the gulf needed to stretch is getting wider, access to credit more limited and opportunities nill in this field.  I'd recommend to young architects getting into finance with a MRED focus before engineering.  The only constant my 40 years has observed has been that the money men never change, always get paid and deal the cards.  Philosophically you could say Architecture is capital made physical so why shouldn't it be that way?  It only took me half a century to figure that out.  So impart that wisdom to you.

I also think the schooling is a part of the problem. Studio is so far removed from the reality of practice it becomes something of a burden to new grads to unlearn the habits they pick up. The amount of time students spend assembling models and finessing renderings is wholly disproportionate to the real needs of the profession, and distracts from developing an understanding of the things architects are expected to know.

Pare it down to less than 12 hours/ week.  Take the remaining hours left over and commit them to actual professional practice activities needed and relevant in the marketplace.  Drafting, putting a set of design documents culminating in CDs together.

I totally agree with Good Knight on this. There must be a way to help students develop a design sensibility which fits in with developing sound judgment in the many somewhat analytical aspects of architecture that a jury crit cannot get into. Of course, there should still be advanced exploration studios for those who are interested, but it really shouldn't be the model for developing core skills.

In fact, studio is really only a productive environment for designers who already have some core skills for developing a design concept and realizing it through documentation. Without that grounding, it becomes a silly spectacle.

Tduds - I converted to USD. It's just how you market yourself and if you have skills outside the usual revit, AutoCAD and conceptual Photoshop bullshit.

archiwutm8-  what are your unique skills? in other words, what do you do? 

I could tell you're young from your comments, but couldn't imagine you would be almost in my age.. 

My comments tell you that I'm young? I have to up my game then.

My skills? Workflow analysis, various IT related skills outside of revit/autocad and skills/experience from working in a consultancy and surveying. Basically you need experience and skills outside university to go anywhere.

Edit: Had to edit some info out otherwise I'd be found.

(nyc) starchitects make millions if not mulitple of millions year........top dog exec architects dabble close to a million yearly if a good year, if a bad still a quarter........medium sized firms that do well,again millions.........small business owners in a good year also millions,bad year a quarter.........project architects with a few decades under their belts close to a quarter..........base salary employees at a successful firm make $60-$70k (3 years experience)..........the only people who make shit salaries are fresh out of school (with NO skills) working for marginal firms.................or project architects who don't leave these shitty marginal firms for better employment..........there is an overabundance of fresh grads with NO skills so its not suprising when you start you do not get paid well.

Olaf- first time I see an angry comments from your side... I know, that doesn't make any sense 

$100,000 is not a lot of money in San Francisco, New York, or Boston. I read an article where a "professional" something or other pulling down $120,000 qualified for public assistance (by whatever name) housing in Boston.

zaina I did ot use any !!! but I did capitalize NO to make a point - ill prepared graduates produced by an overcharging Academia...........Volunteer a realistic salary for NYC if you want kids, a decent living space etc....is nore aroun $200k, as a bachelor you could still do well at $100k, live out in Queens or Brooklyn, commute in, etc.......with NYC - just about any cheaper cost living is a 1hr commute - Philadelphia is a 1 hr commute, so if you are smart, you make NYC money and live 1 hr away.....you get the idea

That's actually true 100k is nothing in major cities, here in London 100k USD is enough for a parking spot.

to live like a suburbanite on Park Ave, read an article once, your family income needs to be at least $750k for NYC. so unless you are Calatrava or some other firm owner, you will not live like your peers........again this not possible as a salary employee, but architecture's current business model is to make money is to be the boss. salary is a cog in the wheel.

TBH too many bitch about their salaries being low, you are the designer of your own life.

I don't get the bitching either.

I've been above the "expected" curb my entire career.

On the plus side......

Anybody?

^sorry, too busy arguing over pies on another thread.

designer of your own life? Istanbul biennial?

archiwutm8, do you work freelance? I am curious how you use those skills within a traditional arch firm if that's what you do.

I don't work in a arch firm.

^^whatvdo you do? Did you get that BIM tech position you were asking about earlier? If not what?

there is an overabundance of fresh grads with NO skills so its not suprising when you start you do not get paid well.

here is an overabundance of fresh grads who whine about low pay - you want more? then you need to do what it takes to increase your value - 

Meh I rejected it and got something better.

here is an overabundance of fresh grads who whine about low pay - you want more? then you need to do what it takes to increase your value 

BUT, don't think that an additional architecture degree (masters or whatever) is really going to increase your value.  Doubling down on a bad investment is not a good idea.  For reasons cited many times, the schools exist to perpetuate themselves and are not necessarily teaching much of anything of real value.

archiwutm8- can you be a little more specific? Like what were you looking for? What companies were you looking at when you made the switch. I'm just sticking around to finish my IDP just in case all of this is "grass is greener" syndrome but I'm having a hard time figuring out what to side step into or even where to look. I just see typical estimator, construction manager assistant ect. 

Oh you were looking for advice. Look outside architecture is what I did, I can pm you the information if you want, I'm not too fond of posting it online as I'd be found out.

It's like my P.A. said - " Everybody that comes in here wants to be an architect - yet only 2% ever follow through and do what it takes. Most of the people go home early unless told otherwise and avoid working weekends unless I issue an e-mail advising of mandatory weekend hours - they don't study for A.R.E. and other necessary preparation even for this job and then complain that they are not getting anywhere - they need to follow the examples of those who do - the 2% that make the grade instead of heading down into SOMA after work for beers"

It's called selling your soul.

basically forgo your life if you want to have a better life, an oxymoron perpetuated by many professionals and companies, to be the most acclaimed head stone in the cemetery. 

I don't think that even gets you ahead, now that's just mandatory to not get fired. My GF put it perfectly, "the only people I know who work as hard as you do are either going for a promotion or are working on their own company, your expected to work that much just to keep your crappy job." Xenakis proves my point of a culture that thinks working weekends is mandatory just to be accepted. When everyone is working through the weekend  there is something wrong with delegation of tasks and budgeting of time/ billing hours.

You have to make the decision if you want to go down that path, I chose not to and do something that I enjoy where I can go home and spend time with my partner, my partner gave up her banking job cause of it also.

It comes with the game - it's like some Gomer Pyle who joins the Marines - then complains "well golly sergeant - they are shooting at me" 

We all knew what outfit we joined - expecting something else is like Dumb Gomer Pyle who gets sent to war and complains of getting shot at - what the hell did you expect?