B, actually, I trust the design skills of a 14 yr old better than a second yr undergrad. By your own logic, at 20 you should have been a starchitect. Fortunately, skill development is not a linear path.
All right all right let's leave him alone, he loves what he does and that's awesome, I'm only hating on him because I don't have that same dedication to architecture and can't compete with the Roark's of this profession.
I don't want to be unsupportive of youthful enthusiasm. I just hate the sight of someone slamming into the concrete wall of reality at 130mph with no airbags.
It's good that you love what you're doing so much, but after a point you will realize that this profession will not love you back. So, get the airbags checked
the reward is our built environment, chump. We all traded higher-than-average financial earnings in order to actually have a fun and extremely rewarding job.
Youthful naivette. Lame beatnik BS. Typical slave artist mentality. Too many are brainwashed in school and social media culture to think any different.
Oh, let BR.TN keep the illusion that all of that dedication to the mother art will pay off in the end. Reality will sink in after a few years. Virginity will be lost eventually.
2% of my time is like 2% of my income: fuck. that.
This. 0.002% is too much to give away given the current generic marketplace compensation. Idiot recent grads beliebing all that arch school "be the change" elementary school drivel that, like a cancerous tumor, has reached into the arch schools. Damn schools are retarded.
How bad are our schools? I went to a top 10 school for a 5 year program, never saw an actual construction set until post graduation. When a student asked the Dean why there wasn't an autoCAD class her response was, "This is a pure program!" When a student asked my thesis professor why our projects didn't include code he non-chalantly responded "because everyone would drop." These are real quotes.
^ because student loans are not tied to professional (post academic) value in the marketplace, and instead based on perpetually inflating government loans (tuition plus inflation) the budgets of schools are only dependent on the numbers of warm bodies they can attract and retain.
So they tell all the students who grew up in the nanny state (gov run day cares, k-12 and finally gov run universities) want to keep hearing all that warm and fuzzy BS they've been told since birth.
So arch school grads aren't any further developed for entry into the profession than they were when they were fingerpainting in kindergarten. No knowledge the marketplace values. No discipline. No integrity.
The schools are retarding the growth and health of the profession. They are a cancerous tumor.
Good Knight what's interesting tho is community colleges are actually on top of it. Took some construction management classes and the Associate architecture kids had to have CAD, construction documents, code, construction classes and estimation as part of their curriculum, their 2 year program > than my $125,000 5 year.
and required reading sb "No Excuses" by Brian Tracy - back in the day(my P.A.s) time they really did learn construction and had to hand draw everything - No Acad and No BIM - No cheating by downloading dubious details - Where I work - "know what you draw" is the watch word
free stuff should be more like a drug dealer giving freebies and more smoke and mirrors, it should never actuallt be free, someone has paid for it (another job) or someone will pay for it (not really what the client wanted and you left out info)
I graduated from a top arch school having never heard of either a specification nor a building permit. We did nude figure drawing and our professors bought us beer though!
I graduated from a top architecture school, and spent two co-op semesters helping generate construction documents for a project that just got published in Architectural Record. After graduation, I worked at a top firm and was responsible for daily construction administration on Sony's new $60M headquarters in a landmark skyscraper in Manhattan.
Sounds like a few people picked the wrong top schools and are now blaming the profession on their own poor decisions.
Good Knight what's interesting tho is community colleges are actually on top of it. Took some construction management classes and the Associate architecture kids had to have CAD, construction documents, code, construction classes and estimation as part of their curriculum, their 2 year program > than my $125,000 5 year.
Yes. One thing to consider is that now that the so called professional schools extracted the engineering, business management, code review etc etc and construction management curriculum from the so called professional school guess where it went?
Construction Management school graduates (accredited) learn more in their 4 years of undergrad education than most architects will have access to/ knowledge about in terms of running a profitable business that responds to costs and schedules in the professional construction industry than the average architect with 30-40 years experience these days.
Fresh arch school grads today aren't even worthy as CAD monkeys cause they can't even put a set of CDs together.
And what is even more pathetic is the fact that the profession is setup now to try and shoehorn ARCHITECTURE school grads into the role of drafter from the get go as they go through IDP. Outrageous. ITT tech grads allowed to compete with arch school grads for slaves duties and wages. Outrageous.
It is the schools fault. Its the governments fault. CANCER. Big old tumors.
I can confidently say that Detroit Mercy teaches that "construction stuff" in far greater detail than U of M. Many local firms refuse to hire Mich. grads for that reason, which is fine because they prob don't want to do construction drawings anyway (my assumption)
Employers if you hire your couple of art student grads for design and then say no to the rest and hire ITT students for drafters, who won't shy away from production work because they aren't art students, I have to believe schools would notice and start asking questions when stats of their grad employment rates plummet. I'm still confused why drafting positions require Ivy League school portfolios and then management gets annoyed that those artists don't want to do production.
Employers if you hire your couple of art student grads for design and then say no to the rest and hire ITT students for drafters, who won't shy away from production work because they aren't art students, I have to believe schools would notice and start asking questions when stats of their grad employment rates plummet. I'm still confused why drafting positions require Ivy League school portfolios and then management gets annoyed that those artists don't want to do production.
The schools and their gov lenders have to give one damn about grad employment rates first. The way their gravy strain is setup currently they have ZERO incentive to care.
Again this is just dumb assumption GoodKnight but I'd assume people would start dropping out of the program's when they hear from friends who graduated before them that only a few of them are finding jobs and the other 90% are baristas. I got to think the employees are somewhat allowing it to perpetuate because they are still accepting their graduates.
We are living in an economic model (i.e. Keynesian) where everything is ass backwards.
All graduates of all programs for the vast majority anyways, can't find meaningful decent paying steady employment post graduation from the schools these days. Because of supply and demand. Too many wanna be chefs in the kitchen and the schools, having no other motivation thatn pack as many warm debt taking on bodies into their schools as possible, no longer select out (for all intents and purposes) from the herds.
STEM, law schools, etc etc have been flooding the market with recent grads with 60, 70...100K debt and there are no decent jobs. Its even happening to medicine and dentistry now.
The Universities are to the labor market these days what a high school diploma was 20-25 years ago. Yes, its that bad. Adulthood is delayed now apparently until about 40. Its a thoroughly retarded system the way its setup. Yes retarded is the perfect word. As in growth and happiness and security and motivation is retarded.
Mass immigration legal and illegal is driving down meaningful employment as well. The stats are all out there and obvious if someone wants to fight about it.
Haven't read the whole thing but the part where BR.TN says " I have a friend who's 23 and is an investment analyst for Goldman Sachs in Manhattan. He makes twice as much as I do, but his job is half as enjoyable."
Yeah but people like your friend are the ones paying your salary at the end of the day, without those with money you don't get to design another obnoxious skyscraper or house to demonstrate their power and wealth.
^ Yes, and you will maybe need your friend to borrow money from when the inevitable bouts of unemployment come your way, which they will in this business.
Which one(s) of these factors do you find important in your current / future job? How would you rate the importance from 1-13? 13 being the highest important.
ArchNyen - this might be a good start to another thread...
13. Management - they bring in the work (projects) which sets the tone for growth/salary, and do the hiring (co-workers)
12. Coworkers - they're your back up and your defacto social life 40hrs or more a day
11. Supervisor/Growth - if I'm not learning, I'm digressing
10. Salary - doesn't need to be huge, but 6 figures in NYC is nice to maintain a decent standard of living
9. Commute/Lunch - the little things in life that ease the day
Design approach is folded into management and coworkers - some parts can change, and has more to do with the studio culture of the firm.
Software? I'm not sure where this plays in. PM software and a good accounting software is helpful but in general aren't we all in Revit or AutoCAD?
Firm name - sort of goes along with the work; I guess star firms are helpful early in he career to establish that 'you can handle the pressure cooker' but not much to help later on.
Task - it comes with growth / firm type
Size - I find that even in large offices, you have smaller teams; there is something to be said for smaller office where you have more say in the upper management decisions, but it's not necessarily tied to size, more with management.
Job market and the Profession
bitches, i invented graphite.
BRTN: You definitely will have enough clients since you work for free. The blood suckers always enjoy a willing host.
B, actually, I trust the design skills of a 14 yr old better than a second yr undergrad. By your own logic, at 20 you should have been a starchitect. Fortunately, skill development is not a linear path.
All right all right let's leave him alone, he loves what he does and that's awesome, I'm only hating on him because I don't have that same dedication to architecture and can't compete with the Roark's of this profession.
geezertect, Don't belittle me. The only time I'll work for free is when I'm spending 2% of my time on pro bono work.
I understand arrogance is offputting, but don't be so unsupportive of someone who is overly self-confident. I'll tone it down for the rest of you.
2% of my time is like 2% of my income: fuck. that.
I don't want to be unsupportive of youthful enthusiasm. I just hate the sight of someone slamming into the concrete wall of reality at 130mph with no airbags.
It's good that you love what you're doing so much, but after a point you will realize that this profession will not love you back. So, get the airbags checked
BR.TN
the reward is our built environment, chump. We all traded higher-than-average financial earnings in order to actually have a fun and extremely rewarding job.
Youthful naivette. Lame beatnik BS. Typical slave artist mentality. Too many are brainwashed in school and social media culture to think any different.
BRTN what make believe land do you live in? Asset managers have more control of the built environment than architects do.
This.
geezertect
Oh, let BR.TN keep the illusion that all of that dedication to the mother art will pay off in the end. Reality will sink in after a few years. Virginity will be lost eventually.
This.
null pointer
2% of my time is like 2% of my income: fuck. that.
This. 0.002% is too much to give away given the current generic marketplace compensation. Idiot recent grads beliebing all that arch school "be the change" elementary school drivel that, like a cancerous tumor, has reached into the arch schools. Damn schools are retarded.
Yup, if you're creating value, you're a fucking idiot for giving it away for free.
If you're not creating value, don't do architecture.
How bad are our schools? I went to a top 10 school for a 5 year program, never saw an actual construction set until post graduation. When a student asked the Dean why there wasn't an autoCAD class her response was, "This is a pure program!" When a student asked my thesis professor why our projects didn't include code he non-chalantly responded "because everyone would drop." These are real quotes.
^ because student loans are not tied to professional (post academic) value in the marketplace, and instead based on perpetually inflating government loans (tuition plus inflation) the budgets of schools are only dependent on the numbers of warm bodies they can attract and retain.
So they tell all the students who grew up in the nanny state (gov run day cares, k-12 and finally gov run universities) want to keep hearing all that warm and fuzzy BS they've been told since birth.
So arch school grads aren't any further developed for entry into the profession than they were when they were fingerpainting in kindergarten. No knowledge the marketplace values. No discipline. No integrity.
The schools are retarding the growth and health of the profession. They are a cancerous tumor.
Good Knight what's interesting tho is community colleges are actually on top of it. Took some construction management classes and the Associate architecture kids had to have CAD, construction documents, code, construction classes and estimation as part of their curriculum, their 2 year program > than my $125,000 5 year.
if ncarb is going to allow licensure upon graduation, hopefully naab will require a couple years of community college
and required reading sb "No Excuses" by Brian Tracy - back in the day(my P.A.s) time they really did learn construction and had to hand draw everything - No Acad and No BIM - No cheating by downloading dubious details - Where I work - "know what you draw" is the watch word
free stuff should be more like a drug dealer giving freebies and more smoke and mirrors, it should never actuallt be free, someone has paid for it (another job) or someone will pay for it (not really what the client wanted and you left out info)
I've never seen this many anti-republicans going against volunteering for their communities...
not anti-republican, you ignorant fuck.
carry on.
BRTN i do respect your work ethic but first do you have a trust fund? Parents pay for school?
I graduated from a top arch school having never heard of either a specification nor a building permit. We did nude figure drawing and our professors bought us beer though!
I graduated from a top architecture school, and spent two co-op semesters helping generate construction documents for a project that just got published in Architectural Record. After graduation, I worked at a top firm and was responsible for daily construction administration on Sony's new $60M headquarters in a landmark skyscraper in Manhattan.
Sounds like a few people picked the wrong top schools and are now blaming the profession on their own poor decisions.
StarchitectAlpha
Good Knight what's interesting tho is community colleges are actually on top of it. Took some construction management classes and the Associate architecture kids had to have CAD, construction documents, code, construction classes and estimation as part of their curriculum, their 2 year program > than my $125,000 5 year.
Yes. One thing to consider is that now that the so called professional schools extracted the engineering, business management, code review etc etc and construction management curriculum from the so called professional school guess where it went?
Construction Management school graduates (accredited) learn more in their 4 years of undergrad education than most architects will have access to/ knowledge about in terms of running a profitable business that responds to costs and schedules in the professional construction industry than the average architect with 30-40 years experience these days.
Fresh arch school grads today aren't even worthy as CAD monkeys cause they can't even put a set of CDs together.
And what is even more pathetic is the fact that the profession is setup now to try and shoehorn ARCHITECTURE school grads into the role of drafter from the get go as they go through IDP. Outrageous. ITT tech grads allowed to compete with arch school grads for slaves duties and wages. Outrageous.
It is the schools fault. Its the governments fault. CANCER. Big old tumors.
ha becky....trying to revamp my firm to be more of a nude sketching beer drinking type of operation. thats where the money is at
I can confidently say that Detroit Mercy teaches that "construction stuff" in far greater detail than U of M. Many local firms refuse to hire Mich. grads for that reason, which is fine because they prob don't want to do construction drawings anyway (my assumption)
Employers if you hire your couple of art student grads for design and then say no to the rest and hire ITT students for drafters, who won't shy away from production work because they aren't art students, I have to believe schools would notice and start asking questions when stats of their grad employment rates plummet. I'm still confused why drafting positions require Ivy League school portfolios and then management gets annoyed that those artists don't want to do production.
I knew it would pay off one day...
StarchitectAlpha
Employers if you hire your couple of art student grads for design and then say no to the rest and hire ITT students for drafters, who won't shy away from production work because they aren't art students, I have to believe schools would notice and start asking questions when stats of their grad employment rates plummet. I'm still confused why drafting positions require Ivy League school portfolios and then management gets annoyed that those artists don't want to do production.
The schools and their gov lenders have to give one damn about grad employment rates first. The way their gravy strain is setup currently they have ZERO incentive to care.
Again this is just dumb assumption GoodKnight but I'd assume people would start dropping out of the program's when they hear from friends who graduated before them that only a few of them are finding jobs and the other 90% are baristas. I got to think the employees are somewhat allowing it to perpetuate because they are still accepting their graduates.
^ Yes, but that would be too logical.
We are living in an economic model (i.e. Keynesian) where everything is ass backwards.
All graduates of all programs for the vast majority anyways, can't find meaningful decent paying steady employment post graduation from the schools these days. Because of supply and demand. Too many wanna be chefs in the kitchen and the schools, having no other motivation thatn pack as many warm debt taking on bodies into their schools as possible, no longer select out (for all intents and purposes) from the herds.
STEM, law schools, etc etc have been flooding the market with recent grads with 60, 70...100K debt and there are no decent jobs. Its even happening to medicine and dentistry now.
The Universities are to the labor market these days what a high school diploma was 20-25 years ago. Yes, its that bad. Adulthood is delayed now apparently until about 40. Its a thoroughly retarded system the way its setup. Yes retarded is the perfect word. As in growth and happiness and security and motivation is retarded.
Mass immigration legal and illegal is driving down meaningful employment as well. The stats are all out there and obvious if someone wants to fight about it.
quote attributed to JM Keynes
Education: the inculcation of the incomprehensible into the indifferent by the incompetent.
[citation needed]
And then another guy on here was saying you should all be making 100k or more at 10 or more years experience.
Your post is so cynical though it's almost as if what is the point for anybody to try and make a career for themselves in any profession
Your post is so cynical though it's almost as if what is the point for anybody to try and make a career for themselves in any profession.
...Hey, less competition. It's worth a try.
And I'll design them all! Think of the riches!
BRTN does not need coffee he runs off of the nectar from the teet of passion!
And I'll design them all! Think of the riches!
The guys who work for free for the sheer love of the game will get the commissions.
StarchitectAlpha
BRTN does not need coffee he runs off of the nectar from the teet of passion!
That was clever. "teet of passion"
brtn, i have met a few people who were true masters in their field...none of them were arrogant... only the fakes sound like you
Haven't read the whole thing but the part where BR.TN says " I have a friend who's 23 and is an investment analyst for Goldman Sachs in Manhattan. He makes twice as much as I do, but his job is half as enjoyable."
Yeah but people like your friend are the ones paying your salary at the end of the day, without those with money you don't get to design another obnoxious skyscraper or house to demonstrate their power and wealth.
^ Yes, and you will maybe need your friend to borrow money from when the inevitable bouts of unemployment come your way, which they will in this business.
office management
supervisor
co workers
salary
commute
restrurants near by for lunch
firm's design approach
software
firm name
firm size
task
projects
growth
Which one(s) of these factors do you find important in your current / future job? How would you rate the importance from 1-13? 13 being the highest important.
welcome to add to the list
ArchNyen - this might be a good start to another thread...
13. Management - they bring in the work (projects) which sets the tone for growth/salary, and do the hiring (co-workers)
12. Coworkers - they're your back up and your defacto social life 40hrs or more a day
11. Supervisor/Growth - if I'm not learning, I'm digressing
10. Salary - doesn't need to be huge, but 6 figures in NYC is nice to maintain a decent standard of living
9. Commute/Lunch - the little things in life that ease the day
Design approach is folded into management and coworkers - some parts can change, and has more to do with the studio culture of the firm.
Software? I'm not sure where this plays in. PM software and a good accounting software is helpful but in general aren't we all in Revit or AutoCAD?
Firm name - sort of goes along with the work; I guess star firms are helpful early in he career to establish that 'you can handle the pressure cooker' but not much to help later on.
Task - it comes with growth / firm type
Size - I find that even in large offices, you have smaller teams; there is something to be said for smaller office where you have more say in the upper management decisions, but it's not necessarily tied to size, more with management.
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