I am interested in reading this discussion, but I am sick of these cutesy portmanteau that supposed professionals come up with. Why is the financial profession trying to out-TMZ TMZ?
if greece leaves the EU, then no more greek architecture right? everything would have to shift from classical revival to renaissance revival (until italy exits the EU).
pretty soon there will be nothing left but germany and modernism.
They are playing it down intentionally to keep from causing market disturbances and exacerbating the bank run. Just read that they are limiting bank withdrawals to 60 euros...
Dumping the Euro is the best possible thing for Greece, should have done it years ago. They absolutely must control their own currency if there is going to be a future there. Bring back the Drachma, value it at some fraction of the Euro. Imports will be non-existent, the country will rebuild its economy, and tourism will flourish.
The real problem isn't the 300b debt, it's the 30t in derivatives on it and the high likelihood that Spain, Italy, etc., will also jump ship.
The EMU / Euro was a dumb as shit undertaking in the first place and should never have been allowed to compromise the EU, which by contrast is a fantastic project.
EU bankers worried about contagion - not slipping euro but realisation that if you stand up and have strong leaders other PIIGS will challenge this BS about austerity. ANTI-Austerity-Contagion. After WW2 Germany's debt was for forgiven and was the only way a country's economy could recover.
Not only Germany but also France has had similarly crippling debt "forgiven" in the past. Some might argue everyone is better of for it. The sanctimonious ways of Hollande and Merkel at the moment are disgusting.
At least for Greece. Here in the US we'll have to wait for the next collapse and the inevitable tapping of depositor accounts (first tested in Cyprus) before we see even a glimmer of hope.
US senator Bernie Sanders has warmly welcomed the referendum result.
“I applaud the people of Greece for saying ‘no’ to more austerity for the the poor, the children, the sick and the elderly.”
“In a world of massive wealth and income inequality Europe must support Greece’s efforts to build an economy which creates more jobs and income, not more unemployment and suffering.”
Sanders, who describes himself as a “democratic socialist”, is running for the Democratic nomination to succeed Barack Obama as president...
I guess I had assumed that the reasoning not to forgive greek debt is that without structural reforms they'll continue to spend like crazy and very quickly have huge debts again.
I admit I haven't been following too closely though.
Something like 90% of the bailout money was used to pay interest on the debt. It was bound to collapse eventually, there is no way to stop it.
The Greek debt crisis is just like the subprime mortgage scandal. Bankers loan money to people who they know can't pay and keep doubling down on them until there is nothing left. They are doing the same thing to half the EU and are afraid that a Greek exit will start a chain reaction.
Yes Miles, a big scandal. And 'reform is not the answer' A friend posted this lecture between Stiglitz and Vanis New Economic Thinking April 2015 @ OCDE
Will give you a clear view of what happened and why 'reform' is not the answer. To the Greeks he equates the word 'reform' to have the same meaning as Democracy in Iraq.
SLAVOJ ŽIŽEK ON GREFERENDUM: THE GREEKS ARE CORRECT
This is a chance for Europe to awaken. The Greeks are correct: Brussels' denial that this is an ideological question is ideology at its purest - and symptomatic of our whole political process - Slavoj Zizek
Little Jamie's family name is Papademetriou, his Greek paternal grandfather changed it to Dimond. Curious. Beware of people who deny their family history.
from the Zizek article...."The true goal of lending money to the debtor is not to get the debt reimbursed with a profit, but the indefinite continuation of the debt that keeps the debtor in permanent dependency and subordination.".........sound familiar?
Out of curiosity, do any of you find fault in Greece? Or are they blameless victims? A huge chunk of Greece's national debt was due to public pension obligations, and public sector employment there is massive. The country also suffers from pervasive tax evasion.
Strange. I didn't realize that a refusal to engage with a stranger on the internet means that one loses the argument by default. Anyway, I guess we're back at it.
Can you please elaborate on how lower effective tax rates for individual taxpayers in the United States are in any way equivalent to individual, widespread tax evasion in Greece?
Do you have any thoughts on the issue of Greek public pension obligations, for that matter?
if a bank lent money to greece knowing they wouldn't be paid back, how is that germany's problem?
eliminate the debt. the bank made the mistake, not the EU, not Germany, not you. the bank can be held accountable for the decisions they made too. let the banks eat the debt for being so utterly stupid.
if greece made obligations to both their citizens in the form of pensions and foreign banks, why would thy hold the obligation to the bank as more important?
You do realize that Germany is a creditor, don't you?
To your last question, Curt, my question really is about public accountability. There was rampant corruption and entitlement spending since the late nineties. It was not uncommon for Greek public sector workers in the late 1990s and early 2000s to retire in their mid-forties with pension obligations owed to them till the end of their lives. Couple this with tax evasion and a weak economy, and there was a recipe for disaster brewing.
Greece also worked with banks to obtain credit and enter the EU (Goldman Sachs, looking at you). Greek finance ministers are believed to have falsified public financial information to make the country look more creditworthy.
I'm not saying that the ECB is blameless, but Greece without question had a hand in getting itself into this mess, as well.
Grexit
Thoughts? Economic collapse 2.0 coming soon to Europe...
I am interested in reading this discussion, but I am sick of these cutesy portmanteau that supposed professionals come up with. Why is the financial profession trying to out-TMZ TMZ?
My only opinion is that I hate "grexit" almost as much as I hate "edutainment"
Edutainment was a good album. I loved BDP back in the late 80's and early 90's.
if greece leaves the EU, then no more greek architecture right? everything would have to shift from classical revival to renaissance revival (until italy exits the EU).
pretty soon there will be nothing left but germany and modernism.
I hate "grexit" too...
They are playing it down intentionally to keep from causing market disturbances and exacerbating the bank run. Just read that they are limiting bank withdrawals to 60 euros...
Doesn't Deutsche Bank own the Parthenon now?
Kanye just bought the statue of Athena on ebay.
Dumping the Euro is the best possible thing for Greece, should have done it years ago. They absolutely must control their own currency if there is going to be a future there. Bring back the Drachma, value it at some fraction of the Euro. Imports will be non-existent, the country will rebuild its economy, and tourism will flourish.
The real problem isn't the 300b debt, it's the 30t in derivatives on it and the high likelihood that Spain, Italy, etc., will also jump ship.
Yah Hoo!
^yup
how about "greekout"? Much more melodious than "grexit", and sort of evokes the appropriate term "freak out".
do we have a name yet for the Puerto rico shitstorm?
Puexit.
exito
Clever use of irony, jla.
Well, it's official. Greece has defaulted.
Looking like its OXI -- Official results released soon.
https://twitter.com/MediaGovGr/status/617736464848297984
NO will win.
Charles Forelle @charlesforelle 15m15 minutes ago
Early yet, but as goes Athens B, so goes the nation....
No means OXI! Well done Greece!
EU bankers worried about contagion - not slipping euro but realisation that if you stand up and have strong leaders other PIIGS will challenge this BS about austerity. ANTI-Austerity-Contagion. After WW2 Germany's debt was for forgiven and was the only way a country's economy could recover.
Come on US, follow the crowd.
This is what democracy is about.
The Greeks have shown us again why they are the home of politics. Thank you Plato, Socrates and all.
Alexis Tsipras @tsipras_eu 18m18 minutes ago
We will go forward with the faith of our people in our efforts, and with #democracy & justice on our side. #Greece
Alexis Tsipras @tsipras_eu 40m40 minutes ago
The Greek ppl responded to real question at hand: What kind of Europe do we want? The answer: A Europe of solidarity & #democracy. #Greece
Hope and change!
At least for Greece. Here in the US we'll have to wait for the next collapse and the inevitable tapping of depositor accounts (first tested in Cyprus) before we see even a glimmer of hope.
US senator Bernie Sanders has warmly welcomed the referendum result.
“I applaud the people of Greece for saying ‘no’ to more austerity for the the poor, the children, the sick and the elderly.”
“In a world of massive wealth and income inequality Europe must support Greece’s efforts to build an economy which creates more jobs and income, not more unemployment and suffering.”
Sanders, who describes himself as a “democratic socialist”, is running for the Democratic nomination to succeed Barack Obama as president...
As Bernie Sanders' popularity surges, Democrats question socialist label
disenfranchised working middle classes....what shall we all do. nothing happens if we dont do anything right?
Greek Finance Minister resigns
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/06/greek-finance-minister-yanis-varoufakis-resigns-despite-referendum-no-vote?CMP=share_btn_fb
Can I borrow $10,000,000 ?
I guess I had assumed that the reasoning not to forgive greek debt is that without structural reforms they'll continue to spend like crazy and very quickly have huge debts again.
I admit I haven't been following too closely though.
Something like 90% of the bailout money was used to pay interest on the debt. It was bound to collapse eventually, there is no way to stop it.
The Greek debt crisis is just like the subprime mortgage scandal. Bankers loan money to people who they know can't pay and keep doubling down on them until there is nothing left. They are doing the same thing to half the EU and are afraid that a Greek exit will start a chain reaction.
Yes Miles, a big scandal. And 'reform is not the answer' A friend posted this lecture between Stiglitz and Vanis New Economic Thinking April 2015 @ OCDE
Worth a watch.
https://youtu.be/OY3Qxm6BoUI
Will give you a clear view of what happened and why 'reform' is not the answer. To the Greeks he equates the word 'reform' to have the same meaning as Democracy in Iraq.
SLAVOJ ŽIŽEK ON GREFERENDUM: THE GREEKS ARE CORRECT
This is a chance for Europe to awaken. The Greeks are correct: Brussels' denial that this is an ideological question is ideology at its purest - and symptomatic of our whole political process - Slavoj Zizek
cont. to read
Little Jamie's family name is Papademetriou, his Greek paternal grandfather changed it to Dimond. Curious. Beware of people who deny their family history.
from the Zizek article...."The true goal of lending money to the debtor is not to get the debt reimbursed with a profit, but the indefinite continuation of the debt that keeps the debtor in permanent dependency and subordination.".........sound familiar?
AKA indentured servitude...The perfect way to create a fascist society is to make the people believe that they are "voluntary prisoners."
Out of curiosity, do any of you find fault in Greece? Or are they blameless victims? A huge chunk of Greece's national debt was due to public pension obligations, and public sector employment there is massive. The country also suffers from pervasive tax evasion.
The country also suffers from pervasive tax evasion.
The subject of taxes came up in another thread that you apparently abandoned after you had your ass handed to you. Going for a twofer?
Strange. I didn't realize that a refusal to engage with a stranger on the internet means that one loses the argument by default. Anyway, I guess we're back at it.
Can you please elaborate on how lower effective tax rates for individual taxpayers in the United States are in any way equivalent to individual, widespread tax evasion in Greece?
Do you have any thoughts on the issue of Greek public pension obligations, for that matter?
if a bank lent money to greece knowing they wouldn't be paid back, how is that germany's problem?
eliminate the debt. the bank made the mistake, not the EU, not Germany, not you. the bank can be held accountable for the decisions they made too. let the banks eat the debt for being so utterly stupid.
if greece made obligations to both their citizens in the form of pensions and foreign banks, why would thy hold the obligation to the bank as more important?
You do realize that Germany is a creditor, don't you?
To your last question, Curt, my question really is about public accountability. There was rampant corruption and entitlement spending since the late nineties. It was not uncommon for Greek public sector workers in the late 1990s and early 2000s to retire in their mid-forties with pension obligations owed to them till the end of their lives. Couple this with tax evasion and a weak economy, and there was a recipe for disaster brewing.
Greece also worked with banks to obtain credit and enter the EU (Goldman Sachs, looking at you). Greek finance ministers are believed to have falsified public financial information to make the country look more creditworthy.
I'm not saying that the ECB is blameless, but Greece without question had a hand in getting itself into this mess, as well.
you're clouding the issue to a significant extent if you think that's right.
germany is a country with a government and things like that, not a bank.
You're truly ignorant. Do you know what the ECB is?
Educate yourself. You're welcome.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Central_Bank
Joseph E. Stiglitz: The U.S. must save Greece
http://ti.me/1NQnhLU via @TIMEIdeas
Oh, weird. I thought that Curt was saying that countries aren't banks.
countries aren't banks. you're confused.
What is the Federal Reserve Bank, pray tell?
its' a central bank.
the federal reserve isn't a country. the united states isn't the federal reserve. that makes no sense.
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