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are you serious? shack up. plus 1,138 statutory provisions including rights and responsibilities denied to that couple. did your bible list those as religious, or were they legal requirements of the state? the united states declared in it's first amendment to the constitution that our government would not limit a person's right based on their religions practice. you like the constitution right?
why do you still think there is some sort of discussion here? some of us want to treat our fellow human beings equal and some are dumb bigots.
human beings are not cars. civil liberties and equal treatment before the law is not a politically correct fad. giving everyone equal access to the same institution is not "changing everything" and it does not require a study of any sort.
I know numerous Dems in America's big cities who have always been pro-gay rights but not for this, or they sort of shrug about it in an almost exasperated manner. You can argue until the cows come home. It won't change peoples' opinions. What's wrong with turning everything over to the term "civil union," then, including weddings for men and women, performed in a governmental setting or in Las Vegas? On second thought, "24 hour Civil Union Chapel" doesn't sound too good.
observant, just because your obvious retardation prevents you from examining the essential facts in the DOMA case before the court, i've actually gone to our trusty internets, and believe me, it was hard, and here are the facts;
"In 2007, Edith "Edie" Windsor and Thea Spyer, residents of New York, married in Toronto, Ontario, after 40 years of romantic partnership. Canada's first openly gay judge, Justice Harvey Brownstone officiated. Windsor had first suggested engagement in 1965. Spyer died in 2009, at which time New York legally recognized same-sex marriages performed in other jurisdictions. After Spyer's death, Windsor was required to pay more than $363,000 in federal estate taxes on her inheritance of her wife's estate. If federal law accorded their marriage the same status as different-sex marriages recognized by their state, she would have paid no taxes.
Windsor approached several gay rights organizations, all of whom turned her down. She was then referred to Roberta Kaplan, at the firm of Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison, who had unsuccessfully argued the case challenging the inability of same-sex couples to marry in New York before the New York Court of Appeals in 2006. "When I heard her story, it took me about five seconds, maybe less," said Kaplan, who was joined in Windsor's case by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)."
why don't you shut your fucking pie-hole already, clown. you're embarrassing yourself.
so. fucking. what. if you think she looks happy, or even lived happily with her wife, she was still discriminated against, and suffered injury based on that discrimination. jesus christ on a half shell, you are what my friends at Python would call, a first class, upper class twit.
Agreed. There should have been laws to allow them to register as domestic partners and exempt the surviving partner from the hefty tax. I hear ya.
why call it 'domestic partners'? just let 'em get married!
i'm bummed by this 'separate but equal' argument regarding marriage vs. civil union or domestic partnership b.s.
it's 2013, right? just checking ..
wow! FRaC and i agree on something, maybe we should get married.
Religion is a business. the whole reason this particular group of people are opposed to same-sex-marriage (especially the terminology) is that it is a threat to their ability to maintain or gain new membership ($$) - and a threat to their political influence in their communities - especially since these specific groups have defined themselves in contrast to what they are not. No one is telling them that they are forced to marry same sex couples (like if you are clergy you don't have to marry people from other religions).
so - for them defining "marriage" in a particular way is about societal control and influence - this noise from religious organizations about marriage is essentially them trying to assert control over the state because it affects their ability to grow and generate revenue.
anyway - religions have a decision to make - either accept societal changes or become increasingly marginalized within that society. it's like any business (religion sells ideology and community) - you can either choose to adapt and outsmart your competition - or you keep doing things the same way and attempt to squash your competition through various means - used to be you'd just kill them, these days we do it through legislation.
Keep in mind that those who identify with a religion don't necessarily buy in 100% as to what that religion has to say. In fact, it's quite common that they don't. I am in conformance with my religion in its ministries to help the poor and the marginalized. I am not in conformance with my religion on some of their stances with regard to moral issues. Some of us can think for ourselves. The "noise" you refer to on THIS issue doesn't necessarily come from religious organizations. It also comes from people, individuals, who have different beliefs across different topics which don't come in tidy packaged form.
if it's not religious, then why do you want to discriminate against gay people?
You discriminate when you diminish someone's quality of life with respect to their housing, employment, schooling, and things like that. This is about a WORD. It makes those pushing for it feel bad because they can't get the SAME word. That's not discrimination. It's not what my parents or my friends' parents have. Most of us who are reasonably liberal and are CON on this issue look at it this way. Did you grow up in big cities? We all accepted same sex couples as our neighbors and coworkers when we were kids. If someone started in on them in a malicious way, we told them to STFU. Oftentimes, you had 2 working adults who lived well and had a lot of disposable income. Sometimes, both were professionals. In fact, what combination would provide for more disposable income than 2 child-free professional adults under the same roof? Adopting the kids was not yet trendy. And many of these relationships were obviously open and unconventional, based on what happened to some of these otherwise nice folks in these relationships. Change has come at an accelerating pace, and sometimes that's not necessarily good. It is entirely a fight over semantics. For some reason, rolling back to "civil unions" wouldn't make them happy, if it was done across the board. I'm sure that a lot of M-F couples wouldn't care if the government issued them a civil union certificate, and they went to church for their wedding ceremony. Why is that not a solution? It's just as feasible.
I wish to live to see the day when Vado is finally free to marry his turtle.
it's not about a *word*. it never was. that's some crap right wing lunatics made up so it doesn't sound like they're hateful jerks. since it's a weak and transparent attempt, it's not working.
this is about 1,138 statutory provisions directly related to people who are "married." for example, in the case of Edith Windsor it's about $363,000.
more to the point, it's about treating human beings equal. now you say you think we should create one 'marriage' for a certain group of people and a different 'marriage' for another group of people. they're equal marriages, they're just separate. we've been through that in america, and our courts decided separate but equal is bullshit.
i doubt vado's turtle's acceptance of a marriage would constitute consent.
curt, you use the terms right wing and hateful. There are people who are right wing and hateful at the mere notion of GLBT anything. THEY are right wing and hateful. How does this issue make people who have never been anti-GLBT right wing and hateful if they don't agree with these current goings-on? There are factions within the GLBT community that either don't care, or don't want it either.
i'm sorry but saying you're 'civil unioned' as opposed to 'married' just isn't the same thing. and yes, you are being hateful and anti-GLBT if you oppose marriage rights for all consenting adult couples. when people go on about 'right wing' do they forget clinton signed both 'don't ask, don't tell' and 'DOMA'? what up with that?
There are factions within the GLBT community that either don't care, or don't want it either.
then those in the GLBT community who feel that way don't have to get married. but let those who do want to get married, get married. and both romney and obama were wrong during the campaign when they say 'leave it up to the states'. 'cause no one questions hetero marriage across state lines.
of course, now obama has magically 'evolved' his position on gay marriage. what a coward.
oh yeah and laugh-out-loud at so-called progressives getting mad because someone had a big estate tax bill. that's exactly what you guys want!
Well, if the current and last Democrats in the Presidential office are skirting this issue, then what does that say? Are you going to look to the Republicans for "relief?"
curtkram's 4:31 post is the crux of it. if there is a different name, there will be different treatment.
i'm pretty certain that's what drove doma's passage: if the federal gov't defined 'marriage', it didn't have to recognize what these crazy states called marriage with its benefits. and it already didn't recognize all of those things with different names...
I'm glad I'm Married. However we have no money so nothing to worry about if we weren't.
I always wonder what my high school girl thinks about all of this. She came out in college, studied law was a judge and who knows what she is doing now. Probably raising goats and crops....
FRaC, with all due respect to you my sweet, sweet libertarian friend, I often ask myself this simple question; would I be the person I am today, if I was this age 30 years ago? What about, instead of being born in 1968, what if I was 18 in 1960? Would I be different then? Part of me thinks I would be a severely prejudiced white male, and likely very conservative. Hell, I was pretty conservative in 1992! I'm going to give most people a pass on their "evolution" even if it is politically expedient. It's certainly not unheard of, I mean how else can you explain John Boehner clinging on to his narrow view? Surely a man as powerful as the Speaker can step out and support government staying out of people's lives, and not imposing restrictions on how religions choose to practice their faith, right?
So I went to a lecture by Michael Graves tonight. It was very nice and personal. He mainly showed pictures of his own house and talked about how his time at the American Academy in Rome affected his work. And how he'd bring his buddies the New York 5 over to see his house in Princeton and they'd all critique each other like friends.
One of things he said was when he went to U Cincy for undergrad he didn't learn Architecture he learned How To Design. It was Rome and being surrounded by scholars in other fields that made him learn about his own field.
I met him and shook his hand and told him how much I like the local Art Center building by him, and how I use it (and I do) as an example to students of a simple, elegant parti. He's very gracious and humorous. And his house in Princeton looks really great - tall doors.
i dig graves. but i think of his career more like some genius physicist where their best work is before 30. that early stuff is unbelievably good
I'm going to give most people a pass on their "evolution" even if it is politically expedient.
BULL SHIT! it's OVER between us, beta! i un-civil unionize you!
Surely a man as powerful as the Speaker can step out and support government staying out of people's lives
LOL and you support of obamacare? cap-and-trade? estate taxes? wtFUCK?
FRaC, sorry baby, i forgot my emoticon ;)! yes, i do support all those things, well, maybe not cap-n-trade, companies should be regulated, and not coaxed into not polluting the environment. fuck that pipeline too.
besides, Obamacare is a tax, and we should have single payer, so the conservatives got what they wanted in 1994, it just took a Democrat and 14 years to get what they wanted. So, Obamacare is a republican victory as far as i'm concerned.
i feel like i need to apologize to donna for my part in letting thread central go all political when her contribution is more beneficial as it's specific to the field of architecture. i've always liked michael graves. there is a sense of humor in what he does. i would think he should have more to talk about architecturally than his own house. i suppose postmodernism was just a quick flare-up and there isn't much going on that would be more directly related to his practice. he works for obama now doesn't he?
also, i'll apologize for my hateful right-wing statement observant called me out for. as FRaC pointed out, not all of the right wing is being hateful on this issue.
"I dig graves," Ha!
So we are looking at possibly buying a different house, and its forcing me to think about how I live, and how I want to live. How I use spaces, and what I actually get pleasure from, like spying on the neighbors. I'm also toying with the idea of building vs buying. Designing my own home is hard! I love watching people, and neighbors, on the sidewalk while kneading dough, which means my kitchen needs to be on the front o the house. But I want the garage close to the kitchen so i dont hav to carry groceries far, and i dont want a front entry garage. I also like being able to look into the backyard from the living room, to watch and hear Abe play, but if I don't have a family room (I don't see why I need an extra room) then the living room needs to also be near the front of the house. And then there's bedrooms, and bathrooms, and making sure I still have a playable backyard....
How do you guys do it?
It's Good Friday to all who observe. They've gotten more lenient. Now, only today does one have to abstain from meat. Salmon sounds good. Happy Easter to those who celebrate it!
Whole Easter thing dates back to a bunch of pagan events from across the globe that all celebrated Spring Equinox. And who could possible hate Spring.
So happy Spring ya'll.
Whatever. I'm sure the greeting is relevant for some. Had this been the eve of Dec. 24, I would say "Merry Christmas" ... and qualify it with "to those who celebrate it."
You mean festivus?
Happy Friday and beginning of the weekend for those who celebrate them!
I never qualify. I figure saying happy Easter is the same as saying happy 31th, or happy Sunday. I told my students happy Easter, and when the Muslim and Jehovah's Witness kids looked at me funny, I just smiled. I also wished the kids Happy Eid, when that happened, and they all just shook their heads. Apparently, they don't say that.
Now someone design my dream-home. Or should I start a thread for that?
Wait, curtkram, apologize to me? I'm in a water-off-a-duck-back phase right now, so no worries.
Sarah, designing my own house would be nigh impossible, I'm afraid. At this point if my house burned down I'd probably want to essentially rebuild a replica with just a few tweaks here and there, though I imagine in the design process the few tweaks would end up with an entirely new design by the end. But that's how I design - tiny moves, little changes, everything eventually settling down into an idea - I never have big "Ah-ha!" moments or even overriding concepts.
Granted, if my house burned down my husband would probably insist on rebuilding with shipping containers, so that could be fun because I would only do so if they were on stilts.
My Easter is going to be spent celebrating Steven's birthday. I'm skipping Easter this year.
yay! and i get to see donna twice in a month! in louisville both times! with bourbon!
i'm so excited about this party, it can't possibly live up to expectations. met the dj in the space yesterday and at least i can report that he's excited about it too. [vinyl nerds.]
Or should I start a thread for that? :)
i'd rather celebrate easter than spring this weekend. there is snow on the ground here. the vernal equinox was essentially a failure this year, at least in my book. spring is kind of pissing me off. i'll probably just grab a couple beers and play a video game or something instead.
Donna, that's kind of what I've done so far. Repeated a lot about what I like about my current house, and reshuffle/add square footage where I wish I had it now. Glad I'm not the only one that has this problem!
Turtle. I love my turtle.
I spent eight hours today again with the "Guys" making "Skees Diner" ready for the move.
Everything is aching...but it feels good because we accomplished so much today. If you want to see her, just type in Skees Diner. It is a great hands on project.
So much damn food on Easter weekend, from good meals to baked goods people are bringing over ... and it ain't over yet. It's kind of like the "buzz" you get from whatever hormone is in the Thanksgiving turkey that puts you to sleep ... or maybe it's just the abundance of food.
holy jesus, anyone check that MArch commiserating thread? it's been up for a little under 2 months and it's got 1400+ comments already??? a lot of whining going down i suspect.
Beta, I wouldn't worry too much. Try as they might, I don't think they'll catch TC.
the commiserate thread started late this season.
i'm pleased to report that donna started the dancing at the 45 party on saturday night. yay!
I did. I'm glad to finally be old enough to not give a damn about how goofily I dance. But it was a slow crowd.
PS The song was Holiday by Madonna. I'm somewhat mortified, but then again, who can resist that song and the blind optimism of the 80s?!
kick-started the dancing, which continued the rest of the night.
the dj was supposed to stop at midnight but - since the dance floor was full still, he kept going until 1am!
Steven, do you have video proof of this? A Donna Holiday gif is a MUST.
no video or photographic evidence. she looked mahhvelous, though. maybe donna can video a reenactment.
...and, happy to report, i lived through the madonna song.
no holidays here related to devil bunnies or saintly saints. our holidays are not nearly as interesting, sadly.
@sarah, about houses, the way we manage it is to not make it about any of the stuff you mentioned in your list. It all gets in there and i think we're pretty awesome at space planning, but it aint what we aim for. Finding out what it IS about is a bit different fish filled kettle and i suppose is what makes architecture into a career for the long lived. At least it seems like that just now...very jealous you get to think about it for your own place.
I miss the blind optimism of the 80's! thank goodness donna is here to remind us.
The 80s were fun, but in my case completely blind. What a dope I was then! I'm still a dope in many ways, of course. But less ignorant of others' experiences and the consequences of my own actions.
God, you guys, I'm trying to detail a perfect thermally broken window replacement in an existing limestone/CMU/plaster wall and it seems impossible. Like it's all a huge Hail Mary attempt and there's no way to know if it will be successful except to wait a year and see if any condensation forms!
is the rep from your preferred window manufacturer helping? it's usually a good idea. if you know who the installer will be and they're experienced, that can be good too.
i always ask for advice.
Yes, I'm working closely with both. And the contractor.
you should post pictures and details.
i like sill dams. sometimes the window people say their system is self-weeping or some crap like that, but i still don't want water getting into the building so i'd like to see a sill dam set in mastic.
i just watched this movie - 4.5 minutes of windows leaking