The undergraduate major at Yale is made up of 28 students, just 12 of whom are male. The Yale School of Architecture, with over 200 graduate students, is 42 percent female [...]
But despite the near gender parity in the classroom, discrepancies persist in the professional field, with very few women serving as partners or leaders of firms. According to a 2012 American Institute of Architects survey of 2,805 member firms, only 17 percent of firm partners and principals are women.
— Yale Daily News
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This is ether going to sound like a douchebag comment or extremely obvious... maybe they should start their own firms? There is no quicker way to the top. Not to mention a woman who is 51% Owner can become certified WBE in most States/Municipalities.
i would like to add it takes probably 20 to 30 years to become a partner right? so shouldnt we be looking at graduation levels circa 1986?
So, a couple of things. First, leaving, to start your own firm, while sounding like an obvious thing, doesn't acknowledge how difficult it is, one, or the sexism. That kind of statement is no different than one of the dopey Drumpf boys, saying essentially that if you're being discriminated against you should just leave. It's not an option for many, and many don't want to.
Second, 20-30 years? Come on ODN, this too isn't Mad Men, it doesn't take that long and you know that. I work at a firm that has many women at a principal level, and a lot at associate.
Something is going on, and it needs to change quickly.
depends beta. if we are talking the old school super firms then yeah it takes that long. if its newer smaller sized firms maybe not and to WF'S point if you went out and started a firm its faster. so i would like to at least see 1996 graduation rates. The article at least discussed 2006, and I am sure you would agree 10 years to principal is fast. Associates, that a silly title like Vice President at a real estate company, who gives a fuck....I call this bad journalism when simple timeline aspects are left out of the arguement. If the 1996 showed a 50/50 split in graduation, or lets go to enrollment, then this would be an article worth reading. Otherwise this is pretty stupid coming from Yale. Also, that graph they show is pointless if the 17% entered the field say 20 years ago and the intern number is from today....which is why Drumpf is so hilarious, you have a loud obnoxious business man playing the often overly educated cluless liberal media on narratives that just do not exist, or that anyone in the real world would laugh at and move on with their lives.....but is it not the age of post-truth, where a conspiracy theory can hold as much weight as real journalism. so really who cares how you thread the data, as long as your point is - there are not enough women in architecture because I say so. this article convinced me (kidding)....I mean you want to give the boys club fodder, you just handed it to them. as boy I can tell you what the clubs reaction is - cute, I'm busy working.....and if you are partially emphathetic to the cause - that was dumb, doesn't do anyone especially your cause a favor.
I'm at an AIA event and was just listening to Jonathan Segal, who I had heard was a dynamic, engaging speaker, give a dull yet self-congratulatory talk on his own work. Halfway through, when he said "So I started a group with two rules: cigars, and no chicks." I got up and walked out.
I've been fighting this shit for four decades. It's 2016. WTF is still going on.
Women in architecture are rare and rare is good. Rare is memorable, you stand out. Weaknesses and strengths are often the very same thing.
Wow, Donna. I would have walked out too. Good for you.
I don't think it's a specific architecture issue, women settle for less in basically all high-pressure jobs.
We hired a female intern architect just as I disappeared for a month leave (paternity, wooo!). So far, she's panning out better and is more curious to learn than some of our other male interns who've been here for much, much longer.
But... then again, boobs! amiright?
Donna, chicks who go to cigar lounges are awesome.
Now, where were we?
the article is all about students. pfff. It gets worse, trust me. when I was an intern with just a few years of experience, the vice pres of the biggest contracting firm in the city called me and asked me in this awful, gravelly condescending voice "Who do you think you are?" and "What makes you think you can do this job, huh?" and on and on. what was funny was that he wanted his plans 2 days early and I had them ready for him already cause even though I hd a feeble female brain, I was on top of that shit. Jerk.
And it is in poor taste to ask a woman interviewing for a job how long till she runs off to have babies, and then explain to her that you know, that's what happens (this interviewer was so smart!). Yet that happens. Lots of work to do yet.
I had a landscape architect who was working on one of my jobs call me and demand a fence height be changed. I didn't want to change it. Client didn't either. I said no. He screamed at me through the phone "F you, you little bitch, change the height of the fence." I told my boss who called his boss and fired him for it. He is no longer a landscape architect. Maybe people shouldn't be taking steroids or something, I don't know what makes some people act that way.
I always thought landscape architects were more on the friendly hippy side of things.
There is a very large tech and CM college in my area and they've been pumping out grads non-stop... many of them female. Not sure how, but it looks like they've been pushing the discipline to high-school girls, so, that's a good thing.
Anyways, it's great to see them doing their CM duties. I'm always amused when you see a 300lbs concrete guy loose an argument to a young 20-something "girl"... if I can borrow their term. Oddly enough, it's the senior engineers I've heard make the least flattering comments.
Oh jesus fucking christ. Just heard that a peer of mine -registered, years in practice, running her own business - was asked by Segal to get him a cup of coffee. Being a good host, she did, and was "rewarded" by being on the receiving end of a big unwanted hug. Burn it all down. I'm writing the AIA and requesting that we no longer invite this guy to any of our events. I shudder to think what we might have paid him. Christ.
jesus fucking christ is right... I don't know who this Jonathan Segal guy is, but his website is blocked by my office's webfilter under the "religion" category.
That's not right. He's s developer/arch billionaire bro.
I saw him prattle on at the AIA National, he's the definitive douchecanoe. Mostly talked about how much money he's making, and all the toys he buys. Dick.
I was asked to serve coffee at a meeting once. I did it and one of the younger guys in the office saw it, asked me what I was doing, and proceeded to chew out the older guy who asked me to do it. I don't think the older guy got what he was mad about. In his mind, women serve coffee. What is the big deal? Ha ha.
Damn tintt, that LA sounds like a prick.
Jonathan Segal FAIA sounds like the perfect embodiment of the AIA philosophy .... douchey elitism
LiMX you are completely wrong. His talk and attitude were NOT well-received by this AIA community.
I'm curious if the equity by design surveys reveal any anecdotal information regarding this problem...
couple pointers here for the ladies from a man's perspective.........as a bear of man adopted by an all female firm as a young cub in this great city I work in back in the day, having taught classes mainly to 90% females (interior design program, I know so sexist of me), I work mainly with women, and having daughters (the estrogen levels are intense) - sometimes what you ladies call harrassment is straight male love talk.......... when I see my brothers I punch them in the arm and tell them they suck - in other words, I love you........... Now the irony here is, if women wanted equal treatment among their male colleagues, thats shit you are just going to have to deal with, you insult the fucker back and punch him.....no god damn hugs.........the getting coffee thing is not cool, but that just may be a shitting on a young person thing, unless of course only the young women are getting coffee.......the sexism in this profession is more to what Non describes as senior engineers comments. the fat concrete guy might hoot and hollar and bust some girls balls, but if that was his girl, he'd kick your ass for doing that. its oddly enough a sign of respect (remember we are in the bears habitat here). the senior engineer stuff is coniving and intentionally mental just to fuck with you. like put the girls on the shit jobs or give them meaningless tasks they will have to defend, where gettimg coffee might be a relief.....grrrr... i need beer
Beer has estrogen, you sure you want that?
fuck! i knew my testorone levels were getting low. what about Stouts?
.
Olaf the entire point is: the bear habitat is a shitty place to live that subjects everyone, including you, to a lot of unfair assumptions and constrictions.
grrr.... ;)
couple pointers here for the ladies from a man's perspective.........
OMG... Please tell me I'm missing some sarcasm here?
listen little mantaray, olaf, sarcasm, never....grr...
I kinda got lost in the whole bear thing, but those two lil guys are pretty cute. Especially the one that looks like a ninja!
I've never heard of this Jonathan Segal guy before. I'm looking him up now and his buildings seem like pretty safe images of luxury. They remind me of the "modern" issues of Architectural Digest. Just a combination of high-end cliche modernist tropes. Nothing too boundary-pushing or interesting. Just basic rich bro-modernism.
wf....fucking A you funny...ok beer run...fuck segal, he probably isn't even into women...ok you liberal PBS specials, imagine a world where the queer man is the sexist asshole - its called architecture. hug a straight guy today, txt his wife on why, and we cool
Segal is a douchcanoe, straight, and simple.
<sigh> I'm so tired of this.
Olaf, whether Segal likes women or men is irrelevant. Being gay isn't bad, nor is being straight.
Being disrespectful of people *based on their gender or orientation* is wrong, no matter the circumstances.
If some dude wants to hang out with a group of other guys, that's fine. That's everyone's preference and right. But you don't announce to a group of peers, in a professional setting, of whom a significant number are women, and at an event at which the organizing committee is 2/3 women, that you don't want to "hang out with chicks". It's telling the people who invited you that they themselves are not welcome in your presence. Imagine if you invited someone to your home for dinner with your family and halfway through they announce "Yeah, but I don't hang out with people with a family, that's a rule of mine." At the very least it's impolite, at the worst it's discriminatory.
And the follow up is this: you cannot announce that you yourself don't like to be around women in a professional environment and then also claim that the industry isn't sexist and unfair to women.
Which is the entire point of this article. The playing field of architecture is currently much more akin to your "bear cave" than to a fair, equal, professional environment. I only brought up Segal to reinforce that, as the article says, there is still a lot of sexism in this field. Segal coincidentally gave me a perfect example of it right as this thread was starting.
And...I was the only person in a room of several hundred to get up and walk out when he made an incredibly sexist comment. The men I spoke about it with afterwards kinda shrugged their shoulders - they have *never* been on the receiving end of this subtle and not-so-subtle sexism that STILL pervades the industry. The women I spoke with were basically too stunned at what they heard to react - kind of a shell-shock. We hear this shit all the time and we tend to doubt our own offense at it because so many others treat it as normal.
*That* is what needs to change to allow your daughters to grow up into a professional world that treats them - and people of color and/or gender-difference - as equally valuable voices in our discipline.
Can it be the power imbalance created by the licensure process?
but donna your point on top of this point is against my points....the bear cave has rules every bear understands i do not think fighting insensitivty with sensitivity is effective. thats a i am saying...your explanation above though was informative and helpful.
no jla. there is nothing wrong with the state requiring some experience and a test before granting a license to practice architecture.
https://www.ij.org/images/pdf_folder/economic_liberty/occupational_licensing/licensetowork.pdf
The institute of justice, the BLS, and the White House disagree that "there is nothing wrong" with occupational licensing curt.
jla, please, if you're going to post that kind of stuff, at least have it be relevant. the report has to do with low wage, occupational workers; cosmeticians, manicurists, etc...you know, one-to-one service related industries, not the kind of things we do as a profession, where we are responsible for people we may never see, and numbers exceeding thousands, sometimes thousands in a day.
"The playing field of architecture is currently much more akin to your "bear cave" than to a fair, equal, professional environment."
I beg to differ, Donna - the place I work for has a lady as the MD of the office, and a few Studio leaders are also women. Its more of an extremely politically correct place where everyone walks on eggshells, resulting in a bunch of inefficiencies and wasted time. Going thru the right channels for silly shit sucks.
sameold here is an article explaining the most successful ways to discuss ideas with people, and note that they are all communication styles that women tend to use.
https://hbr.org/2016/09/how-to-talk-politics-at-work-without-alienating-people
In Olaf's bear cave people yell at each other and whoever is louder or meaner wins. Is that successful communication?
The entire "play the game by our rules the way is always has" argument is tired because it implicitly perpetuates stereotypes and patterns.
Regarding the bear analogy, what is missing from that photo is a mother that neither cub will cross. The assumption that they are both male is another matter.
Donna, I think what Olaf is saying is that sometimes guys to things without actually meaning any harm or disrespect. If we all want to be equals, we all have to let go of a few of our idiosyncrasies.
Also, the method the article describes is exactly how it is at my work, and it sucks ass. Not appropriate for a design firm.
exactly sameolddoctor (post above above)
I thought the AIA had an ethics code? Is saying "no chicks allowed" by a speaker at an AIA sponsored event a violation that should subject the speaker to disciplinary action? I would think so.
How is it not appropriate for a design firm to strive to have conversations that are respectful of one another and focus on learning and common ground?
I find that you can definitely be respectful and still have plenty of room for blunt honesty or crass humor. Different situations call for different types of responses and different degrees of restraint. Good listening and observational skills are super important. Sometimes you can just tell that a hilariously perverted observation can't be shared with the entire group. Thankfully, my boss has hired a lot of people who enjoy the comedy of Curb Your Enthusiasm and Inside Amy Schumer.
Exactly, davvid. My own boss - male - and I share some really crass jokes. But as we learned in sexual harassment training last week (yes, seriously), it isn't classified as harassment if both/all involved are willing participants. When he and I are around other people we don't behave that way AT ALL.
Judging an audience's receptiveness to that kind of humor, and immediately apologizing if you take a chance but misjudge, is part of being a professional.
Let's find a middle ground... men, be less douchey and women, don't tweet every micro grievance and only 35% female panel
The problem is that people are being taught to be hypersensitive and take every offensive word to heart. When I was a kid they taught us the old "sticks and stones" thing...Now kids are killing themselves over verbal bullying...sometimes even online bullying...The politically correct demands of our contemporary society have had 3 major effects imo...1. They have made open racists and sexists into closet racists and sexists striping away the ability of minorities and women to be vigilant. 2. Inflated the power to words...which in turn makes the recipients of verbal attacks feel more hurt. 3. Changed dialogue and confrontation into unchecked internal monologues and anonymous internet attacks. As we can see from the various Internet comment sections, racism and sexism is as strong as ever. Sure verbal sexism is unprofessional and inappropriate in the workplace, but Wouldn't you rather know your enemy rather than pretend them away...hidden by southern like politeness?
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