You guys are clearly right and I am wrong. The advice I have been giving is outdated and has no place in this forum. I would also like to state that I clearly had an alterior motive to grandstand and demean those who are not employed at this time. My bad. I do hope all the best to you students, recent graduates and interns as well as licensed architects in your careers in architecture as I am certain this recession will turn around soon.
Good luck."
You didn't have to go get all emotional. It seems like there are always two kinds of people in these discussions--the whiners and the self-congratulators.
All I'm saying is, if you are as experienced as you imply you are, then share some REAL ways from your experience on how others can make it better. Suggesting arch grads go work at mcD's is too easy in my opinion coming from an experienced architect.
As much as you think you can logic your way through it, there isn't a near term solution. You want to know how to "fix it". It's broken. Really. Things that are broken can be fixed but are never the same. When you say "fix it" I know you mean, "back to the way it was". Isn't going to happen. My only real advice is that most of us can no longer stay here, as architects, no matter how much we want to. Sometimes things happen. Maybe you now believe I am a quitter. I'm not. I have merely moved foreward and am hoping to get others to accept the reality that is here and move foreward before it is too late. What is to late? My previous boss is an example of too late. Too late could also mean that while sitting here trying to find a job in an architecture firm, someone else took the last job somewhere else which you may have been qualified for outside of architecture. Now it may be too late because the newer recent grad took that job as well. Ever play musical chairs?
This is not condescention. I am not grandstanding. I was not the one who asked to see another posters resume/experience. I had no intention of providing that but someone asked. I am not gloating. If I was laid off today I can tell you that I would not be looking for another position similar to my previous job as an architect nor this one as I know those jobs have evaporated. I would have to go elsewehere. After my 2 years of unemployment of course.
I remember students would laugh when professors, who lived through the great depression, said that "their are economic forces, and they are so strong we cannot change them we can only guide them", calling them old fashioned, the irony is that 40 or 50 years from now some of those people will be talking about these hard times to their students too.
New grads have to think of whatever they do for the next couple of years as temporary until the economy starts to turn around and they get a job. It will be another horrible year until that happens. We all understand how disappointing it is to finish school and have no job waiting, student debt, dashed dreams... They can either just sit around and wait, or make the most of it. Those that make the most of it will be hired first. Learn REVIT, become LEED accredited, study up on green design, learn everything there is to learn about LED lighting, volunteer at your local AIA office, do imaginary projects on your own, build something. You can look for jobs in related fields, like construction, but those are rare too. just dont give up. You still have your whole freakin life ahead of you. It would be much worse to be 50, with a mortgage, kids in college, very little retirement savings, and no job. Time is on the side of the young.
It is really horrible out there now, but it is turning around I think. Our firm has hired 5 people in the last six months, and we are busy. I think others will be hiring soon. In three years, we will all be complaining about not being able to find competent employees.
Listen to Archie. Architecture is a lesson in perseverance.
Sorry On The Fence, but your comments smack of the disgruntled city worker attempting to validate his own choices.
"Isn't going to happen. My only real advice is that most of us can no longer stay here, as architects, no matter how much we want to."
maybe you've given up on your dreams and decided to cash in on a secure guvment job. But that won't last long, especially if you've taken the attitude that we should all give up and seek refuge in some other profession.
After all, who will be passionate, relentless, naive?, folks out there pounding the pavement and selling projects to bring in for your review?
Your advice seems self affirming at best and self defeating at worst.
Cadcroupier - A croupier is the person who takes and pays out bets at a gambling table, often in a casino. The croupier is standing in for the house but usually has no personal stake in the game.
That's interesting because I'd bet (in my experience this was the case) that you wouldn't hear much talk of economics in design studios nowadays.
Our professors almost out and out avoided the topic when it came up. I'm not trying to sound accusatory, but maybe it has something to do with the period they grew up in--1950's 0n?
i think the disillusionment is justifiable (in this thread and many like it) --- after all, i would be willing to bet that many of us would have done other things to begin with were it not for the promises of and trust in people, institutions and society that turned out to not be true
would people of my parents generation have stayed with businesses and corporations for 20-40 years, missing out on other opportunities, giving their lives to these companies, if they knew that in the 90's and 00's the pensions, 401k, company stock, etc, they were promised, the home equity which was only supposed to increase was all going to disappear in large part just as they were getting ready to retire?
would people in their 40's and younger have accepted being subjected to programmed activities, non-stop competition and testing with their peers from the time they were toddlers onward if they had known that all of those promises that hard work, dedication, intelligence, and education pay off would prove grossly overstated, but they would still be on the hook for the cost of meeting those performance expectations?
maybe without the promises, the carrots, and also the threats of the stigma of mediocrity and lack of resources and mobility and security that it entails, most would have chosen a different life-style
i think most people work so hard, take so many risks, not because we are all just programmed to work all of the time and leverage ourselves all of the time, but because lots of people were promised lots of things and felt like they were making reasonable, calculated bets on their future --- and how would anyone know it was a lie when those things were in fact delivered to the WWII generation as they achieved and retired in the post war period
in many ways, many of these threads, and other discussions with friends and family seem as part of a period of mourning...mourning for the loss of a lifestyle, specifically a sense of attainment, affirmation that all of the hardwork, sacrifice and intellectual development at the expense of missed opportunities with family, friends, or to just hang out or to follow one's passion (not in a career sense but a larger sense) was worth it, at the moment it does not look like it was worth it in many instances --- people have already payed dearly into the system in good faith --- and that trust has been violated
Your last sentence implies to me that you think we can live comfortable on unemployment benefits. I suppose it depends on your lifestyle, but most people can not--it's just a way of sustaining. I agree with you that there may be some disincentive, but not to the degree of welfare that I think you are implying.
I appreciate your point of view, by the way, I just think you're taking things out of context and presuming a lot about people you don't know.
Actually I am sitting on the fence looking back in. I've made my choice and I'm good with it. The advice I give isn't for everyone but it could help a good percentage come to terms with their situation. I don't tell people they have to do this or that. It is up to them. Advice I see on sites such as this one are best taken with a grain of salt, including mine, and sometimes the advice here may require a whole sack of salt, depending. What is it exactly that you are offering people these days or more specifically in terms of this thread and its discussion?
Disgruntled? Well, you've really got the wrong guy. I'd be lier if I said my current position fulfills me the same as when I was working in a design/build firm, but disgruntled? Hardly. I've lost some old cons from architecture and gained new ones from my current position. Same goes for the pros. And has been pointed out, I am licensed so I do have the ability to move in or out as I decide. Right now I wouldn't do that though. But that is a personal choice based on knowing what I know.
I don't tell everyone here to run for the hills. But in general a new grad with $100,000 plus in debt, you bet. In this economy and times? YOU BET. What advice are you doling out again? Right now, they can do something else for a few years and if they want, try to enter this field at a later date, more power to them. Sitting around with nothing but sunshine being blown up their asses by other not so fortunate interns, grads and architects with nothing but hopes and dreams based in some sort of fairy wonderland, remember the good old days will be returning atmosphere is highly unproductive at the very least and dangerously destructive at worst.
But you don't have to believe me. Cuz you know better and whatever advice you are dispensing these days will not adversely affect anybody, right? The paths you set people on will have a better chance at overall success, right? Of course your mantra seems to be "After all, who will be passionate, relentless, naive?" and we all know that pays off in the end every time.
I think you guys are being too rough on OTF. He's saying things that are painful to hear, but they're true: pretty much everything is shitty right now.
archie I'm glad to hear you guys are hanging in there. Quite a few people are, but barely.
dot - those are private student loans, they don't have consolidation nowdays, and they have no such thing as income sensetive IBR stuff that fed loans have. Worst of all student loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy, so I might leave the country faster than I am going pay off...
if you can get though the tough times you will prosper when times are good.
i live in windsor, ontario. we are an auto based economy and have been suffering. infact windsor has the highest rate of unemployment in canada.
my old boss has been in windsor most of his life, and explained how bad things were in the 80s. he explained how hard it was on every one and most people really lost hope. but things got better and for 20 years the economy prospered. now we face the same challenges. yes, its frustrating, very frustrating. but those who work hard, very hard will manage though these times and will be better for it.
i have a 3 year diploma, this january i am taking out 70,000 in a student loan and am returning to school to get my MArch. I love architecture, it is more than my job or profession, its my passion. Students and recent grads, you need to make a decision, and if you LOVE it, stay with it, try not to be discouraged enought to quit.
i know things will get better, im sticking with the profession.
and this isnt intended to be some self promotion or lecture. i just want people (especially recent grads and potential students) to know, its not all hopeless. people are still choosing to go to architecture school
i want to come back to the title and (presumably) original point of the thread: is this recession over? the short answer, obviously, is no. the real question is when will it potentially end.
right now, talking to our banker who's a whole lot smarter than me, the situation is pretty much thus: they don't expect to pull back to what constituted 'normal' lending practices (say around mid 90's, possibly 03-04, which is the last, true period without significant distortions from either sky high or recessed markets overall) for another 3-4 years. could be a bit sooner if the economy as a whole were to show some continuous signs of growth, could be longer (krugman's 'lost decade' scenario) if we keep going two steps forward, one step back. this is the same guy who, around this time last year, thought we were on a 5 year curve. so, pretty much still there.
yes, the banks are lending money, but only to the safest of risks. just read through this if you think i'm kidding. people like me, who are in a 'suspect' industry and self employed? forget it - i probably couldn't qualify for the house i'm in and bought 10 years ago.
right now, the construction industry, as a whole, is experiencing moderate depression type numbers - nearing 20% 'official' unemployment, but with so many small businesses who are self employed (and not operating at capacity), the effective rate of actual 'non-productivity' is closer to 40-45%. problem is, construction is historically about 5% of the entire u.s. gdp. so... just starting out, we've lost a huge chunk of ground in the u.s. economy that would need to be made up and then some to show any actual growth overall. exports aren't doing it.
folks, we aren't going to get there anytime soon. there is simply too much supply of existing buildings, too few banks willing to write them off (and sell them to investors), too many homes in foreclosure, too few buyers who qualify to buy new homes, property values both residential and commercial which are continuing to fall in many areas and an absolute unwillingness to finance any speculative developments. landlords can't even justify paying t.i. money on spaces, since the book value has dropped so much. point is - the available 'pool' of potential project money is coming largely from a handful of places and it's nowhere near a big enough pot to cover employment for every architect seeking it. and that's simply not going to change significantly the next 4-5 years. yes, it will continue to improve a bit each year. and yes, banks will start to realize the sky isn't going to fall if they make a 'normal' loan to people and companies. but it's going to take much longer than any of us have experienced before. and the profession will take even longer than that to recover all the ground we're losing right now (fees, talent, etc.)
so, yes, a lot of people - including myself and many who have posted on this thread and others like it - are going to have to make some incredibly difficult decisions in the months and years ahead. is this profession really worth it? can you afford to hold on or hold out hope of breaking in? even if you do, can it support the type of lifestyle you hope to live (or want to)? or, can you begin to try and imagine other ways you can play a role in the grand scheme of things, filling needs no one else sees?
i've been doing this 17+ years now - one of the questions i've finally made my peace with over the past year is this: if i had to leave the profession tomorrow (for whatever reason) and never practice in the traditional sense again, would i be 'ok'? and the answer is a resounding yes. i love what i do, but the breadth of the world is amazing and if i was dealt another hand, i'd could make that jump, never look back, and never have any regrets. only thing i can hope is that some of you find that same kind of resolution...
Almost everything I hear lines up w/ what outed just said.
I'm friends w/ a quite a few finance type people and most (one exception) fall somewhere in line w/ what outed just wrote. Everyone in the construction industry has similar feelings about the state of the market. Almost no one believes that things will be better in "just one more year" and even if things pick back up, it will not be how it was four years ago. The construction boom of that period was an anomaly that doesn't come around very often.
That being said, in the last three months or so, we've had some old, very large "mega-project" type developments come through our door that we thought were either dead or on life-support. I think some developers are just trying to stay busy and justify their employment, but there's a feeling that there could be a decent sized pick-up in three-four years and so they're positioning themselves to have everything through plan-check, have estimates and financing in order, so that when things start picking up, they won't be behind the curve.
I honestly think if you're young and you can swing it (I know this is not an option for most people and it really sucks) you should look at moving overseas where market conditions are better. I'm somewhat foolishly about to do this, but I feel it's a calculated risk to go somewhere w/ better employment numbers. I'm not even going to bother applying to jobs here in the states.
"so, yes, a lot of people - including myself and many who have posted on this thread and others like it - are going to have to make some incredibly difficult decisions in the months and years ahead. is this profession really worth it? can you afford to hold on or hold out hope of breaking in? even if you do, can it support the type of lifestyle you hope to live (or want to)? or, can you begin to try and imagine other ways you can play a role in the grand scheme of things, filling needs no one else sees?"
This paragraph is right-on. Everyone needs to ask themselves how they're going to survive the next few long, tough years. I think OTF comes across as really caustic, but like Donna said, he makes some good points. If you can't find anything in the architecture industry, you might have to take a "Mcjob" to get by (myself included). I don't think we should scoff at this kind of work if we can get it.
On the other hand, what jmanganelli said about expectations rings the most true to me.
"i think the disillusionment is justifiable (in this thread and many like it) --- after all, i would be willing to bet that many of us would have done other things to begin with were it not for the promises of and trust in people, institutions and society that turned out to not be true."
This is so true. I read an article that said the G.I. (Greatest) generation was born and spent their early years in a society similar to the one we're just coming off of (roaring 20s). They were a protected, more coddled generation until the shit really hit the fan, but were eventually able to step-up and get through it (what choice did they have?)
I'm not about to make some prediction that we will weather this in the same way as them. In some ways we're worse off (all the debt) but in other ways, we're in much better shape (society in general is more wealthy). It's also too early to predict if this economic will be of a similar length or depth. I think (and hope) not, but who can say? Better to plan for the worst and hope for the best.
I think it depends on the cities. Since I am in chicago, I would like to pick chicago first. Well, it really sucks. after last Oct 2, I think chicago will lose next 10 years. So far, the market proved I am right.
What about NY, boston, seattle, LA? Are they in better shape?
what's hard for most people to understand is that when people say 'things are picking up', you have to take into account what the baseline is. when you've been knocked so far down, any meager scraps constitutes 'picking up'.
that said, yes, to answer jmangenelli -i do trust this guy. he's incredibly smart, knows this region (southeast) and is the last person in this world who's going to b.s. me about this stuff. he's kept our line of credit open where almost everyone else would have shut it and he wants us to do well. so, yeah, i believe his assessment.
and shaner makes a great point - not everywhere is feeling the pinch the same way. here in atlanta? we're screwed from a large project perspective. the larger firms who have work are getting most of their larger projects out of town or overseas. they're also very academic/govt. heavy. one of them is getting to be a serious player in large scale planning. i'm not sure about london, but there are spots in the country where it should recover faster - texas, dakotas, maybe nola, north carolina. places that are in deep trouble are the atlanta, vegas, cali, florida axis - where a ton of speculative overdevelopment has occurred. europe is it's own mess. s.e. asia and china, as a whole, are going to be booming comparatively.
one thing that donna and i have pointed out in other posts: if you do happen to be out of work right now, do some soul searching about where you're living and where you'd really like to lay down roots. if they're one in the same, great. but, if you really think you'd like to live in butte, then make that move now. be happy with where you are first and foremost. dig into your community and establish some deep roots. it'll pay off in mega spades later on, no matter what you do.
"i think the disillusionment is justifiable (in this thread and many like it) --- after all, i would be willing to bet that many of us would have done other things to begin with were it not for the promises of and trust in people, institutions and society that turned out to not be true."
one last thought - i can't presume to know what people who have graduated in the last couple of years must be dealing with. when my wife and i graduated in the early 90's, it was pretty rough. i got lucky but it took her a year and a half to find something. neither of us, though, had anything resembling the kinds of student loans hanging over us that seem to be common now.
but i don't see what we're going through as a betrayal of trust in the sense it's being described above. or at least it wasn't a betrayal of the schools and/or the profession itself. all of us are being buffeted about by forces that we have absolutely no control over. the 'why' behind that has been debated ad nauseum.
as hard as it is to hear or believe when you've been beaten down for so long, you have to try to keep a bigger picture in mind. i'm with the mindset that says try to get whatever job you can. but even then, you can be somewhat strategic about how you do that. for example, if you think, as an architect, you really want to focus on healthcare one day, do whatever you can to find a job in that industry. study the spaces you're in, take notes about how the hospital functions, how things could be done a bit better. believe me, that kind of real-life experience means a lot - A LOT - to a client if you can wed it back into better solutions. i know for a fact we won our first library in part because our interior designer once took a 2 year job working as a librarian. everyone on the client side could 'shop talk' with her at the interview.
see this 'thing' as an opportunity. now, grab some coffee and get going...
canada is doing good because the banks never went quite so far down the stupid road that banks in the usa did, and also because our economy is still based on resources. it seems to be enough so far to keep us from getting as bad as in usa...
anyway, my friends in winnipeg seem to be doing ok. my uncle in calgary, who has a successful business supplying port-a-potties and bins to construction sites there says he is doing ok but the business is heading to saskatchewan because of the oil and the tar sands. who knows if he is right or not, but he is no dummy so i guess could be the truth...
japan is not as bad as usa either, though we are definitely suffering. in some ways this is an opportunity, but very hard to take advantage of because the banks are not really lending anymore. my business partner is a developer so we are dealing with banks a lot and it is very clear that quite a few smart projects that make sense in all kinds of financially rational ways are not going to happen in this non-rational atmosphere. until that position changes we are going to feel the pinch. If it gets better in a few years would be great but i would not count on that to happen.
whether that means getting out of architecture i can't say. i run an office and teach architecture at university for pocket change (i have phd so that is not strange on both accounts). sometimes i think it would be nice to teach full time, but on other hand i really like designing and building so that is what i will do until i am forced to stop or i die (no bravado or romance here - i just really enjoy what i do) . unlike many i am not disillusioned about our profession. instead i see it as good reason to change how we work. which is fine with me.
i do however see the possibility that the economy will not be improving for another year or four, so right now i am keeping options open and working very hard to keep business and family safe and happy. I have NO safety net though. which can be scary. i don't recommend it if you can avoid it.
outed gives great advice there, you'all. Go to the city you want to be in, because in four years you'll have a network built up (you'll have to view this network-building as a part-time job and actually WORK at it, of course). Find a job somehow peripherally related to the kind of work you'd like to be doing. For me, that would be facilities maintenance at a large institution or cleaning people's houses.
As to the betrayed trust of the field: I hope I gave my ProPractice students last semester a bit of a bleak but realistic picture: architecture is hard, especially at the beginning, and most especially right now. But it's also a long, slow profession, so a graduating 25-year-old still has fifteen years to be considered a "young" architect. Take the long view, and figure out how to live on the super-cheap.
And, very important: don't take it personally. Things suck for everyone right now; your inability to get a job in your field in no way reflects on your talents as a person.
Thanks for the reassurance Donna...I admit, I'm guilty of having moments of personal doubt and self bombardment maybe?... it's something I'm consciously trying to avoid since it resonates into other aspects of ones life and those around us. People that don't really give a shit whether you're an Architect or a 'MCjobber', they just want you to be all right.
So hopefully it is true and this recession will come to an end sooner or later, I think it will all come together nicely, the economy get back on track, the wars will and the country will prosper again.
I like to think as long as the population is still increasing, there has to be some sort of economic expansion occurring. I mean people's gotta eatz, and they need to eatz in buildingszz.
It's a nice thought though (More people = More buildings). I think there will be opportunities out there in the future. We just need to convince more people that design is valuable. I'm still a student, but I've been practicing on people I meet. Sometimes they respond. I just convinced someone on craigslist asking for Landscape designer to go talk to a couple of Landscape Architects,while volunteering myself to help out with the labor. They seemed genuinely interested and hopefully a LA firm will get some work out of it.
Architects, architecture students and the design community have to be more proactive in trying to convince people of the value in having things properly designed.
I do wish schools and professional practice teachers would be more upfront about the realities. My school doesn't teach professional practice until after students are already 3 years in. I think that's way to late. Also, I'd like to see more business, marketing and Revit classes included. They would have been more helpful than an entire year of physics. I have no regrets though. Even if that means working 2 or more jobs. I'm lucky because I have almost no debt thanks to a scholarship, and I still will always have a place for architecture and the design process in my heart.
Donna, I don't think people here have a problem with the content of what On the Fence is saying. I think they have more of an issue with the haughtiness of O.T.F. thinking that he is telling them something they aren't already well aware of.
It's one thing to troll someone's politics, but to tease one's livelihood is just plain dickish.
very often people mistake rudeness for plain talking honesty. in america that is sometimes useful but i think is only properly useful if you know when you are doing it. otherwise its pretty much just an opportunity to show off social inadequacy. not sure which way some of the above is intended but it mostly seems oblivious if well intentioned.
not sure i agree with any/all of the negative advice. the economy sucks, yeah, and this time is worse than i have experienced so far, but there were times when it was nearly as bad. the main difference this time around is the duration.
i think it was quizzical who pointed out that we will all get through this. this is my third recession/depression/whatever. i am still doing architecture and every year things become more interesting. i have moved country three times though. not sure if that was required but each move was precipitated by economic decisions. not easy for everyone to do, but i have wife and 2 kids and can't imagine it being much harder than that. but here we are. and in 5 years there we will be. there is no best answer for anyone and best advice is to follow your own path and stay flexible. probably would help to not have those feelings of entitlement much maligned in the news written by old men (ooh, you whipper snappers think you deserve anything? i never thought i deserved anything! cough, phlegm, cough), and to not take it personally just as donna says.
i don't know archinectors, i think it it valid to both hold a 'moving forward' perspective while acknowledging the legitimacy of the disillusionment --- it is not an either or thing --- the latter is not an excuse for inaction --- it was only worth noting to the extent that people were being given a hard time for going after advanced degrees or leveraging themselves or trusting in the exchange value of their work capacity and intelligence, the worth of which turned out to be less a stable commodity than was thought ---
as opposed to viewing it as a:
whoa is me
vs
rub some dirt in it & move on
acknowledging the legitimacy of the profound sense of loss, of invested time, energy, achievement, missed opportunity and money is part of moving on
as far as being proactive, within that notion there seem to be two intentions --- covering ones bases and 'skating to where the puck will be' in order to not only cover ones bases but create a chance to advance beyond subsistence, despite the situation ---
the former includes learning BIM, about sustainability, etc
the latter -- needs as a base perspective gained from research, analysis and experience --- but once identified, then any menial or temporary job, any travel, volunteering or competition, any skill acquisition or networking can be geared toward that interest and thus is not wasted or divergent effort but part of development and later, marketing oneself
jman... yeah I agree man, I've been working on habitat for humanity here and there as well as some idea competitions to stay somewhat in the game... I still find it pointless at certain times... well not the habitat for humanity because I do that for a different reason, more so the competitions i sometimes feel it's a circle jerk... unless I win of course :)
exactly... where is it all leading?.. ideally we all want to do good architecture right? (I assume) ... i guess i started this post to reach out to others to see what's up and what others are doing/ thinking about right now in these times
My goodness, its quite depressing reading your comments in here. Sounded 'apocalyptic'.
I guess, we all have to go East (Asia). Architects never go hungry there. I just arrived from Singapore to attend M.Arch Postprof; most of my peers get to at most 5kusd/mo at work in there.
Partly, for the reason is that architecture back there is production-driven and technically-oriented. These days, no one wanted to be too experimental, we only survive with necessities like efficient planning, construction and technicalities.
No unfortunately the recession is not over yet! I know that is not the ideal to get just any job, but this is necessary if you want to survive. My advice is to get anything that you can find, but if possible a full time. I certainly agree that’s very hard to work in a job part time in a minimal wage that does not even cover the rent.
During this crisis I let some people know that if they need anything done at their house, like painting, and general maintenance, I would be willing to do it to supplement income. I have done things that are not so glamorous, but not heavy either.
On weekends per example I have painted rooms, replaced fixtures, patched walls, installed vinyl tiles, replaced a completed sink for a powder room, replanted some flowers, (flowers always make everyone feels better including myself). I planted organic tomatoes from the seeds and gave to people. I believe in positive attitude as a good fuel.
People see value in things. In consequence of that I got 2 design jobs for a bathroom and house expansion (art studio) for another person. Things are really slow for the last 3 years; work does not just show up as used to.
"The economists said it was now clear that the recession in the city that started in May 2008 ended in November 2009, a span of about 18 months. By their definition, the local recession was shorter than the national recession, which began in December 2007 and most likely ended in late summer 2009, though its end has not officially been pinpointed. "
lol ohhh yeaaah, you got that right... i just told my supervisor i couldn't handle all the time and half in overtime i've been getting from that last deadline... whew!
Economists Say Slump Has Ended in the City
By PATRICK McGEEHAN
Published: July 22, 2010
New York City is gradually recovering from a deep but surprisingly short recession that ended in November, but its manufacturing industries are not pitching in by adding jobs, economists from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York said Thursday.
The economists said it was now clear that the recession in the city that started in May 2008 ended in November 2009, a span of about 18 months. By their definition, the local recession was shorter than the national recession, which began in December 2007 and most likely ended in late summer 2009, though its end has not officially been pinpointed.
William C. Dudley, the president and chief executive of the New York Fed, said economic activity in the city and state had “expanded at a relatively brisk pace since the beginning of the year.” Mr. Dudley added, however, that a slowdown in hiring in June indicated that “the recovery is likely to be a bit bumpy.”
Still, compared with the national economy, the city has rebounded faster than in past recessions.
Jason Bram, a senior economist with the New York Fed, said that after the last two deep recessions, the city’s recovery did not begin for a year or more after the national economy began to grow again.
“This one appears to have been shallower and shorter than the last ones,” Mr. Bram said.
By some measures, the city has been more resilient then the rest of the metropolitan region. The number of private-sector jobs in the city was higher in June than it had been a year before, while the rest of the state and New Jersey both had lower job counts over the year. The city’s unemployment rate of 9.5 percent remains as high as the nation’s and much higher than in the rest of New York State, the economists noted.
New Jersey appears to have stopped weakening, but there are few signs of a rebound, the economists said.
One bright spot in New Jersey has been private-sector job growth in the northern counties closest to New York. Another has been the state’s manufacturing sector, where the number of jobs increased by 1.3 percent from May to June — about twice as fast as manufacturing jobs grew nationally. The opposite has been true in New York State, where manufacturing jobs increased just 0.2 percent this spring.
Another troubling signal for job-seekers came from the New York Fed’s latest survey of manufacturers in the state. Most of the respondents said they did not think that the level of general business activity was any better in July than it had been in June.
Even worse was that, on average, they said that they expected their sales to be 8 percent higher this year than last year, but that they did not expect to increase employment at all.
Is this Recession $#!T over yet?!
"I'd just like to apologize at this time.
You guys are clearly right and I am wrong. The advice I have been giving is outdated and has no place in this forum. I would also like to state that I clearly had an alterior motive to grandstand and demean those who are not employed at this time. My bad. I do hope all the best to you students, recent graduates and interns as well as licensed architects in your careers in architecture as I am certain this recession will turn around soon.
Good luck."
You didn't have to go get all emotional. It seems like there are always two kinds of people in these discussions--the whiners and the self-congratulators.
All I'm saying is, if you are as experienced as you imply you are, then share some REAL ways from your experience on how others can make it better. Suggesting arch grads go work at mcD's is too easy in my opinion coming from an experienced architect.
No one here really wants to hear this.
As much as you think you can logic your way through it, there isn't a near term solution. You want to know how to "fix it". It's broken. Really. Things that are broken can be fixed but are never the same. When you say "fix it" I know you mean, "back to the way it was". Isn't going to happen. My only real advice is that most of us can no longer stay here, as architects, no matter how much we want to. Sometimes things happen. Maybe you now believe I am a quitter. I'm not. I have merely moved foreward and am hoping to get others to accept the reality that is here and move foreward before it is too late. What is to late? My previous boss is an example of too late. Too late could also mean that while sitting here trying to find a job in an architecture firm, someone else took the last job somewhere else which you may have been qualified for outside of architecture. Now it may be too late because the newer recent grad took that job as well. Ever play musical chairs?
This is not condescention. I am not grandstanding. I was not the one who asked to see another posters resume/experience. I had no intention of providing that but someone asked. I am not gloating. If I was laid off today I can tell you that I would not be looking for another position similar to my previous job as an architect nor this one as I know those jobs have evaporated. I would have to go elsewehere. After my 2 years of unemployment of course.
I remember students would laugh when professors, who lived through the great depression, said that "their are economic forces, and they are so strong we cannot change them we can only guide them", calling them old fashioned, the irony is that 40 or 50 years from now some of those people will be talking about these hard times to their students too.
i know i misspelled their, thanks guys , back to job hunting now.
all the best.
New grads have to think of whatever they do for the next couple of years as temporary until the economy starts to turn around and they get a job. It will be another horrible year until that happens. We all understand how disappointing it is to finish school and have no job waiting, student debt, dashed dreams... They can either just sit around and wait, or make the most of it. Those that make the most of it will be hired first. Learn REVIT, become LEED accredited, study up on green design, learn everything there is to learn about LED lighting, volunteer at your local AIA office, do imaginary projects on your own, build something. You can look for jobs in related fields, like construction, but those are rare too. just dont give up. You still have your whole freakin life ahead of you. It would be much worse to be 50, with a mortgage, kids in college, very little retirement savings, and no job. Time is on the side of the young.
It is really horrible out there now, but it is turning around I think. Our firm has hired 5 people in the last six months, and we are busy. I think others will be hiring soon. In three years, we will all be complaining about not being able to find competent employees.
Listen to Archie. Architecture is a lesson in perseverance.
Sorry On The Fence, but your comments smack of the disgruntled city worker attempting to validate his own choices.
"Isn't going to happen. My only real advice is that most of us can no longer stay here, as architects, no matter how much we want to."
maybe you've given up on your dreams and decided to cash in on a secure guvment job. But that won't last long, especially if you've taken the attitude that we should all give up and seek refuge in some other profession.
After all, who will be passionate, relentless, naive?, folks out there pounding the pavement and selling projects to bring in for your review?
Your advice seems self affirming at best and self defeating at worst.
Cadcroupier - A croupier is the person who takes and pays out bets at a gambling table, often in a casino. The croupier is standing in for the house but usually has no personal stake in the game.
Huh. I learn new things everyday.
Sorry, but this time the house loses.
on the fence - someone who can't decide what to do with himself.
Yet you are happy to tell other people what to do with conviction?
Displaced--
That's interesting because I'd bet (in my experience this was the case) that you wouldn't hear much talk of economics in design studios nowadays.
Our professors almost out and out avoided the topic when it came up. I'm not trying to sound accusatory, but maybe it has something to do with the period they grew up in--1950's 0n?
Maybe that's part of the issue?
i think the disillusionment is justifiable (in this thread and many like it) --- after all, i would be willing to bet that many of us would have done other things to begin with were it not for the promises of and trust in people, institutions and society that turned out to not be true
would people of my parents generation have stayed with businesses and corporations for 20-40 years, missing out on other opportunities, giving their lives to these companies, if they knew that in the 90's and 00's the pensions, 401k, company stock, etc, they were promised, the home equity which was only supposed to increase was all going to disappear in large part just as they were getting ready to retire?
would people in their 40's and younger have accepted being subjected to programmed activities, non-stop competition and testing with their peers from the time they were toddlers onward if they had known that all of those promises that hard work, dedication, intelligence, and education pay off would prove grossly overstated, but they would still be on the hook for the cost of meeting those performance expectations?
maybe without the promises, the carrots, and also the threats of the stigma of mediocrity and lack of resources and mobility and security that it entails, most would have chosen a different life-style
i think most people work so hard, take so many risks, not because we are all just programmed to work all of the time and leverage ourselves all of the time, but because lots of people were promised lots of things and felt like they were making reasonable, calculated bets on their future --- and how would anyone know it was a lie when those things were in fact delivered to the WWII generation as they achieved and retired in the post war period
in many ways, many of these threads, and other discussions with friends and family seem as part of a period of mourning...mourning for the loss of a lifestyle, specifically a sense of attainment, affirmation that all of the hardwork, sacrifice and intellectual development at the expense of missed opportunities with family, friends, or to just hang out or to follow one's passion (not in a career sense but a larger sense) was worth it, at the moment it does not look like it was worth it in many instances --- people have already payed dearly into the system in good faith --- and that trust has been violated
i agree jmanganelli
Otf-
Your last sentence implies to me that you think we can live comfortable on unemployment benefits. I suppose it depends on your lifestyle, but most people can not--it's just a way of sustaining. I agree with you that there may be some disincentive, but not to the degree of welfare that I think you are implying.
I appreciate your point of view, by the way, I just think you're taking things out of context and presuming a lot about people you don't know.
cadcroupier,
Actually I am sitting on the fence looking back in. I've made my choice and I'm good with it. The advice I give isn't for everyone but it could help a good percentage come to terms with their situation. I don't tell people they have to do this or that. It is up to them. Advice I see on sites such as this one are best taken with a grain of salt, including mine, and sometimes the advice here may require a whole sack of salt, depending. What is it exactly that you are offering people these days or more specifically in terms of this thread and its discussion?
Disgruntled? Well, you've really got the wrong guy. I'd be lier if I said my current position fulfills me the same as when I was working in a design/build firm, but disgruntled? Hardly. I've lost some old cons from architecture and gained new ones from my current position. Same goes for the pros. And has been pointed out, I am licensed so I do have the ability to move in or out as I decide. Right now I wouldn't do that though. But that is a personal choice based on knowing what I know.
I don't tell everyone here to run for the hills. But in general a new grad with $100,000 plus in debt, you bet. In this economy and times? YOU BET. What advice are you doling out again? Right now, they can do something else for a few years and if they want, try to enter this field at a later date, more power to them. Sitting around with nothing but sunshine being blown up their asses by other not so fortunate interns, grads and architects with nothing but hopes and dreams based in some sort of fairy wonderland, remember the good old days will be returning atmosphere is highly unproductive at the very least and dangerously destructive at worst.
But you don't have to believe me. Cuz you know better and whatever advice you are dispensing these days will not adversely affect anybody, right? The paths you set people on will have a better chance at overall success, right? Of course your mantra seems to be "After all, who will be passionate, relentless, naive?" and we all know that pays off in the end every time.
Charlie decides to push the "Pursuit of Architecture" button...see what happens:
http://www.todaysbigthing.com/2010/07/12
I think you guys are being too rough on OTF. He's saying things that are painful to hear, but they're true: pretty much everything is shitty right now.
archie I'm glad to hear you guys are hanging in there. Quite a few people are, but barely.
OMG architectonik, that's hilarious. I can't stop laughing.
dot - those are private student loans, they don't have consolidation nowdays, and they have no such thing as income sensetive IBR stuff that fed loans have. Worst of all student loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy, so I might leave the country faster than I am going pay off...
if you can get though the tough times you will prosper when times are good.
i live in windsor, ontario. we are an auto based economy and have been suffering. infact windsor has the highest rate of unemployment in canada.
my old boss has been in windsor most of his life, and explained how bad things were in the 80s. he explained how hard it was on every one and most people really lost hope. but things got better and for 20 years the economy prospered. now we face the same challenges. yes, its frustrating, very frustrating. but those who work hard, very hard will manage though these times and will be better for it.
i have a 3 year diploma, this january i am taking out 70,000 in a student loan and am returning to school to get my MArch. I love architecture, it is more than my job or profession, its my passion. Students and recent grads, you need to make a decision, and if you LOVE it, stay with it, try not to be discouraged enought to quit.
i know things will get better, im sticking with the profession.
and this isnt intended to be some self promotion or lecture. i just want people (especially recent grads and potential students) to know, its not all hopeless. people are still choosing to go to architecture school
i want to come back to the title and (presumably) original point of the thread: is this recession over? the short answer, obviously, is no. the real question is when will it potentially end.
right now, talking to our banker who's a whole lot smarter than me, the situation is pretty much thus: they don't expect to pull back to what constituted 'normal' lending practices (say around mid 90's, possibly 03-04, which is the last, true period without significant distortions from either sky high or recessed markets overall) for another 3-4 years. could be a bit sooner if the economy as a whole were to show some continuous signs of growth, could be longer (krugman's 'lost decade' scenario) if we keep going two steps forward, one step back. this is the same guy who, around this time last year, thought we were on a 5 year curve. so, pretty much still there.
yes, the banks are lending money, but only to the safest of risks. just read through this if you think i'm kidding. people like me, who are in a 'suspect' industry and self employed? forget it - i probably couldn't qualify for the house i'm in and bought 10 years ago.
right now, the construction industry, as a whole, is experiencing moderate depression type numbers - nearing 20% 'official' unemployment, but with so many small businesses who are self employed (and not operating at capacity), the effective rate of actual 'non-productivity' is closer to 40-45%. problem is, construction is historically about 5% of the entire u.s. gdp. so... just starting out, we've lost a huge chunk of ground in the u.s. economy that would need to be made up and then some to show any actual growth overall. exports aren't doing it.
folks, we aren't going to get there anytime soon. there is simply too much supply of existing buildings, too few banks willing to write them off (and sell them to investors), too many homes in foreclosure, too few buyers who qualify to buy new homes, property values both residential and commercial which are continuing to fall in many areas and an absolute unwillingness to finance any speculative developments. landlords can't even justify paying t.i. money on spaces, since the book value has dropped so much. point is - the available 'pool' of potential project money is coming largely from a handful of places and it's nowhere near a big enough pot to cover employment for every architect seeking it. and that's simply not going to change significantly the next 4-5 years. yes, it will continue to improve a bit each year. and yes, banks will start to realize the sky isn't going to fall if they make a 'normal' loan to people and companies. but it's going to take much longer than any of us have experienced before. and the profession will take even longer than that to recover all the ground we're losing right now (fees, talent, etc.)
so, yes, a lot of people - including myself and many who have posted on this thread and others like it - are going to have to make some incredibly difficult decisions in the months and years ahead. is this profession really worth it? can you afford to hold on or hold out hope of breaking in? even if you do, can it support the type of lifestyle you hope to live (or want to)? or, can you begin to try and imagine other ways you can play a role in the grand scheme of things, filling needs no one else sees?
i've been doing this 17+ years now - one of the questions i've finally made my peace with over the past year is this: if i had to leave the profession tomorrow (for whatever reason) and never practice in the traditional sense again, would i be 'ok'? and the answer is a resounding yes. i love what i do, but the breadth of the world is amazing and if i was dealt another hand, i'd could make that jump, never look back, and never have any regrets. only thing i can hope is that some of you find that same kind of resolution...
outed...thank you for going back to the original post and answering in such depth and honesty
outed, do you believe your banker's estimated timeline?
Almost everything I hear lines up w/ what outed just said.
I'm friends w/ a quite a few finance type people and most (one exception) fall somewhere in line w/ what outed just wrote. Everyone in the construction industry has similar feelings about the state of the market. Almost no one believes that things will be better in "just one more year" and even if things pick back up, it will not be how it was four years ago. The construction boom of that period was an anomaly that doesn't come around very often.
That being said, in the last three months or so, we've had some old, very large "mega-project" type developments come through our door that we thought were either dead or on life-support. I think some developers are just trying to stay busy and justify their employment, but there's a feeling that there could be a decent sized pick-up in three-four years and so they're positioning themselves to have everything through plan-check, have estimates and financing in order, so that when things start picking up, they won't be behind the curve.
I honestly think if you're young and you can swing it (I know this is not an option for most people and it really sucks) you should look at moving overseas where market conditions are better. I'm somewhat foolishly about to do this, but I feel it's a calculated risk to go somewhere w/ better employment numbers. I'm not even going to bother applying to jobs here in the states.
"so, yes, a lot of people - including myself and many who have posted on this thread and others like it - are going to have to make some incredibly difficult decisions in the months and years ahead. is this profession really worth it? can you afford to hold on or hold out hope of breaking in? even if you do, can it support the type of lifestyle you hope to live (or want to)? or, can you begin to try and imagine other ways you can play a role in the grand scheme of things, filling needs no one else sees?"
This paragraph is right-on. Everyone needs to ask themselves how they're going to survive the next few long, tough years. I think OTF comes across as really caustic, but like Donna said, he makes some good points. If you can't find anything in the architecture industry, you might have to take a "Mcjob" to get by (myself included). I don't think we should scoff at this kind of work if we can get it.
On the other hand, what jmanganelli said about expectations rings the most true to me.
"i think the disillusionment is justifiable (in this thread and many like it) --- after all, i would be willing to bet that many of us would have done other things to begin with were it not for the promises of and trust in people, institutions and society that turned out to not be true."
This is so true. I read an article that said the G.I. (Greatest) generation was born and spent their early years in a society similar to the one we're just coming off of (roaring 20s). They were a protected, more coddled generation until the shit really hit the fan, but were eventually able to step-up and get through it (what choice did they have?)
I'm not about to make some prediction that we will weather this in the same way as them. In some ways we're worse off (all the debt) but in other ways, we're in much better shape (society in general is more wealthy). It's also too early to predict if this economic will be of a similar length or depth. I think (and hope) not, but who can say? Better to plan for the worst and hope for the best.
Guys:
I think it depends on the cities. Since I am in chicago, I would like to pick chicago first. Well, it really sucks. after last Oct 2, I think chicago will lose next 10 years. So far, the market proved I am right.
What about NY, boston, seattle, LA? Are they in better shape?
cmrhm
the idea around here is the canadian cities are doing a little better now a days because of alot of federal stimulus money.
Toronto, London ont, seem to be ~ok
although i wonder what will happen when the stimulus money runs dry
to expand on CMRHMs question, does anyone know how are some of the other major CDN cities doing? Ottawa, Vancover, Montreal?
what's hard for most people to understand is that when people say 'things are picking up', you have to take into account what the baseline is. when you've been knocked so far down, any meager scraps constitutes 'picking up'.
that said, yes, to answer jmangenelli -i do trust this guy. he's incredibly smart, knows this region (southeast) and is the last person in this world who's going to b.s. me about this stuff. he's kept our line of credit open where almost everyone else would have shut it and he wants us to do well. so, yeah, i believe his assessment.
and shaner makes a great point - not everywhere is feeling the pinch the same way. here in atlanta? we're screwed from a large project perspective. the larger firms who have work are getting most of their larger projects out of town or overseas. they're also very academic/govt. heavy. one of them is getting to be a serious player in large scale planning. i'm not sure about london, but there are spots in the country where it should recover faster - texas, dakotas, maybe nola, north carolina. places that are in deep trouble are the atlanta, vegas, cali, florida axis - where a ton of speculative overdevelopment has occurred. europe is it's own mess. s.e. asia and china, as a whole, are going to be booming comparatively.
one thing that donna and i have pointed out in other posts: if you do happen to be out of work right now, do some soul searching about where you're living and where you'd really like to lay down roots. if they're one in the same, great. but, if you really think you'd like to live in butte, then make that move now. be happy with where you are first and foremost. dig into your community and establish some deep roots. it'll pay off in mega spades later on, no matter what you do.
"i think the disillusionment is justifiable (in this thread and many like it) --- after all, i would be willing to bet that many of us would have done other things to begin with were it not for the promises of and trust in people, institutions and society that turned out to not be true."
one last thought - i can't presume to know what people who have graduated in the last couple of years must be dealing with. when my wife and i graduated in the early 90's, it was pretty rough. i got lucky but it took her a year and a half to find something. neither of us, though, had anything resembling the kinds of student loans hanging over us that seem to be common now.
but i don't see what we're going through as a betrayal of trust in the sense it's being described above. or at least it wasn't a betrayal of the schools and/or the profession itself. all of us are being buffeted about by forces that we have absolutely no control over. the 'why' behind that has been debated ad nauseum.
as hard as it is to hear or believe when you've been beaten down for so long, you have to try to keep a bigger picture in mind. i'm with the mindset that says try to get whatever job you can. but even then, you can be somewhat strategic about how you do that. for example, if you think, as an architect, you really want to focus on healthcare one day, do whatever you can to find a job in that industry. study the spaces you're in, take notes about how the hospital functions, how things could be done a bit better. believe me, that kind of real-life experience means a lot - A LOT - to a client if you can wed it back into better solutions. i know for a fact we won our first library in part because our interior designer once took a 2 year job working as a librarian. everyone on the client side could 'shop talk' with her at the interview.
see this 'thing' as an opportunity. now, grab some coffee and get going...
canada is doing good because the banks never went quite so far down the stupid road that banks in the usa did, and also because our economy is still based on resources. it seems to be enough so far to keep us from getting as bad as in usa...
anyway, my friends in winnipeg seem to be doing ok. my uncle in calgary, who has a successful business supplying port-a-potties and bins to construction sites there says he is doing ok but the business is heading to saskatchewan because of the oil and the tar sands. who knows if he is right or not, but he is no dummy so i guess could be the truth...
japan is not as bad as usa either, though we are definitely suffering. in some ways this is an opportunity, but very hard to take advantage of because the banks are not really lending anymore. my business partner is a developer so we are dealing with banks a lot and it is very clear that quite a few smart projects that make sense in all kinds of financially rational ways are not going to happen in this non-rational atmosphere. until that position changes we are going to feel the pinch. If it gets better in a few years would be great but i would not count on that to happen.
whether that means getting out of architecture i can't say. i run an office and teach architecture at university for pocket change (i have phd so that is not strange on both accounts). sometimes i think it would be nice to teach full time, but on other hand i really like designing and building so that is what i will do until i am forced to stop or i die (no bravado or romance here - i just really enjoy what i do) . unlike many i am not disillusioned about our profession. instead i see it as good reason to change how we work. which is fine with me.
i do however see the possibility that the economy will not be improving for another year or four, so right now i am keeping options open and working very hard to keep business and family safe and happy. I have NO safety net though. which can be scary. i don't recommend it if you can avoid it.
outed gives great advice there, you'all. Go to the city you want to be in, because in four years you'll have a network built up (you'll have to view this network-building as a part-time job and actually WORK at it, of course). Find a job somehow peripherally related to the kind of work you'd like to be doing. For me, that would be facilities maintenance at a large institution or cleaning people's houses.
As to the betrayed trust of the field: I hope I gave my ProPractice students last semester a bit of a bleak but realistic picture: architecture is hard, especially at the beginning, and most especially right now. But it's also a long, slow profession, so a graduating 25-year-old still has fifteen years to be considered a "young" architect. Take the long view, and figure out how to live on the super-cheap.
And, very important: don't take it personally. Things suck for everyone right now; your inability to get a job in your field in no way reflects on your talents as a person.
Thanks for the reassurance Donna...I admit, I'm guilty of having moments of personal doubt and self bombardment maybe?... it's something I'm consciously trying to avoid since it resonates into other aspects of ones life and those around us. People that don't really give a shit whether you're an Architect or a 'MCjobber', they just want you to be all right.
So hopefully it is true and this recession will come to an end sooner or later, I think it will all come together nicely, the economy get back on track, the wars will and the country will prosper again.
I like to think as long as the population is still increasing, there has to be some sort of economic expansion occurring. I mean people's gotta eatz, and they need to eatz in buildingszz.
Personally, I like eating outside.
It's a nice thought though (More people = More buildings). I think there will be opportunities out there in the future. We just need to convince more people that design is valuable. I'm still a student, but I've been practicing on people I meet. Sometimes they respond. I just convinced someone on craigslist asking for Landscape designer to go talk to a couple of Landscape Architects,while volunteering myself to help out with the labor. They seemed genuinely interested and hopefully a LA firm will get some work out of it.
Architects, architecture students and the design community have to be more proactive in trying to convince people of the value in having things properly designed.
I do wish schools and professional practice teachers would be more upfront about the realities. My school doesn't teach professional practice until after students are already 3 years in. I think that's way to late. Also, I'd like to see more business, marketing and Revit classes included. They would have been more helpful than an entire year of physics. I have no regrets though. Even if that means working 2 or more jobs. I'm lucky because I have almost no debt thanks to a scholarship, and I still will always have a place for architecture and the design process in my heart.
Donna, I don't think people here have a problem with the content of what On the Fence is saying. I think they have more of an issue with the haughtiness of O.T.F. thinking that he is telling them something they aren't already well aware of.
It's one thing to troll someone's politics, but to tease one's livelihood is just plain dickish.
very often people mistake rudeness for plain talking honesty. in america that is sometimes useful but i think is only properly useful if you know when you are doing it. otherwise its pretty much just an opportunity to show off social inadequacy. not sure which way some of the above is intended but it mostly seems oblivious if well intentioned.
not sure i agree with any/all of the negative advice. the economy sucks, yeah, and this time is worse than i have experienced so far, but there were times when it was nearly as bad. the main difference this time around is the duration.
i think it was quizzical who pointed out that we will all get through this. this is my third recession/depression/whatever. i am still doing architecture and every year things become more interesting. i have moved country three times though. not sure if that was required but each move was precipitated by economic decisions. not easy for everyone to do, but i have wife and 2 kids and can't imagine it being much harder than that. but here we are. and in 5 years there we will be. there is no best answer for anyone and best advice is to follow your own path and stay flexible. probably would help to not have those feelings of entitlement much maligned in the news written by old men (ooh, you whipper snappers think you deserve anything? i never thought i deserved anything! cough, phlegm, cough), and to not take it personally just as donna says.
i don't know archinectors, i think it it valid to both hold a 'moving forward' perspective while acknowledging the legitimacy of the disillusionment --- it is not an either or thing --- the latter is not an excuse for inaction --- it was only worth noting to the extent that people were being given a hard time for going after advanced degrees or leveraging themselves or trusting in the exchange value of their work capacity and intelligence, the worth of which turned out to be less a stable commodity than was thought ---
as opposed to viewing it as a:
whoa is me
vs
rub some dirt in it & move on
acknowledging the legitimacy of the profound sense of loss, of invested time, energy, achievement, missed opportunity and money is part of moving on
as far as being proactive, within that notion there seem to be two intentions --- covering ones bases and 'skating to where the puck will be' in order to not only cover ones bases but create a chance to advance beyond subsistence, despite the situation ---
the former includes learning BIM, about sustainability, etc
the latter -- needs as a base perspective gained from research, analysis and experience --- but once identified, then any menial or temporary job, any travel, volunteering or competition, any skill acquisition or networking can be geared toward that interest and thus is not wasted or divergent effort but part of development and later, marketing oneself
jman... yeah I agree man, I've been working on habitat for humanity here and there as well as some idea competitions to stay somewhat in the game... I still find it pointless at certain times... well not the habitat for humanity because I do that for a different reason, more so the competitions i sometimes feel it's a circle jerk... unless I win of course :)
so what is it that you want to do, architectonik? where is all of this leading?
exactly... where is it all leading?.. ideally we all want to do good architecture right? (I assume) ... i guess i started this post to reach out to others to see what's up and what others are doing/ thinking about right now in these times
peoplez gonna eat each other inside the buildingz!
My goodness, its quite depressing reading your comments in here. Sounded 'apocalyptic'.
I guess, we all have to go East (Asia). Architects never go hungry there. I just arrived from Singapore to attend M.Arch Postprof; most of my peers get to at most 5kusd/mo at work in there.
Partly, for the reason is that architecture back there is production-driven and technically-oriented. These days, no one wanted to be too experimental, we only survive with necessities like efficient planning, construction and technicalities.
No unfortunately the recession is not over yet! I know that is not the ideal to get just any job, but this is necessary if you want to survive. My advice is to get anything that you can find, but if possible a full time. I certainly agree that’s very hard to work in a job part time in a minimal wage that does not even cover the rent.
During this crisis I let some people know that if they need anything done at their house, like painting, and general maintenance, I would be willing to do it to supplement income. I have done things that are not so glamorous, but not heavy either.
On weekends per example I have painted rooms, replaced fixtures, patched walls, installed vinyl tiles, replaced a completed sink for a powder room, replanted some flowers, (flowers always make everyone feels better including myself). I planted organic tomatoes from the seeds and gave to people. I believe in positive attitude as a good fuel.
People see value in things. In consequence of that I got 2 design jobs for a bathroom and house expansion (art studio) for another person. Things are really slow for the last 3 years; work does not just show up as used to.
"The economists said it was now clear that the recession in the city that started in May 2008 ended in November 2009, a span of about 18 months. By their definition, the local recession was shorter than the national recession, which began in December 2007 and most likely ended in late summer 2009, though its end has not officially been pinpointed. "
From NY Times yesterday.
real f@cken clear!!!
do2... so it IS over then? Since last summer?
Feels like it, don't it?
lol ohhh yeaaah, you got that right... i just told my supervisor i couldn't handle all the time and half in overtime i've been getting from that last deadline... whew!
It aaaall right here.
Economists Say Slump Has Ended in the City
By PATRICK McGEEHAN
Published: July 22, 2010
New York City is gradually recovering from a deep but surprisingly short recession that ended in November, but its manufacturing industries are not pitching in by adding jobs, economists from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York said Thursday.
The economists said it was now clear that the recession in the city that started in May 2008 ended in November 2009, a span of about 18 months. By their definition, the local recession was shorter than the national recession, which began in December 2007 and most likely ended in late summer 2009, though its end has not officially been pinpointed.
William C. Dudley, the president and chief executive of the New York Fed, said economic activity in the city and state had “expanded at a relatively brisk pace since the beginning of the year.” Mr. Dudley added, however, that a slowdown in hiring in June indicated that “the recovery is likely to be a bit bumpy.”
Still, compared with the national economy, the city has rebounded faster than in past recessions.
Jason Bram, a senior economist with the New York Fed, said that after the last two deep recessions, the city’s recovery did not begin for a year or more after the national economy began to grow again.
“This one appears to have been shallower and shorter than the last ones,” Mr. Bram said.
By some measures, the city has been more resilient then the rest of the metropolitan region. The number of private-sector jobs in the city was higher in June than it had been a year before, while the rest of the state and New Jersey both had lower job counts over the year. The city’s unemployment rate of 9.5 percent remains as high as the nation’s and much higher than in the rest of New York State, the economists noted.
New Jersey appears to have stopped weakening, but there are few signs of a rebound, the economists said.
One bright spot in New Jersey has been private-sector job growth in the northern counties closest to New York. Another has been the state’s manufacturing sector, where the number of jobs increased by 1.3 percent from May to June — about twice as fast as manufacturing jobs grew nationally. The opposite has been true in New York State, where manufacturing jobs increased just 0.2 percent this spring.
Another troubling signal for job-seekers came from the New York Fed’s latest survey of manufacturers in the state. Most of the respondents said they did not think that the level of general business activity was any better in July than it had been in June.
Even worse was that, on average, they said that they expected their sales to be 8 percent higher this year than last year, but that they did not expect to increase employment at all.
architectonik:
You say you work in habitat? Do you need to pay them for the tools? Do you guys really get house built?
i volunteer here and there to help out, kill some time, and meet cool people
no, all tools are provided by habitat from the generosity of donations and yes, houses do get built.
Sometimes from the ground up, but mostly renovations.
Thank you, architectonik. In chicago, volunteer need to pay $100 for tools. IL is such a bankrupt state.
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