I'm at work, with no work... Pretend to be working... which is soul destroying. Surfing the net/going for cigarettes/making coffee/going to the loo/read lacklustre minutes/... Earning in Rands (South Africa).

Exchange Rate: $1 = R7,80cents (I can buy a 3-4 peanuts)

Its not over here.

I'm also tired. bored.

ldwg, do you work at my last office? most people there do exactly what you described, no architectonik, for architects, we are in another Great Depression.

Collecting unemployment? Thats funny, didn't you hear, unless you are a recent unemployed, the government cut off extended umemployment benefits, so I have no job, no unemployment, am ready to pack my valuables and hit the streets... so much for architecture degree, so much for freedom, so much for this whole country...

zen maker, i didn't know that... i've opted out of watching the news and following cnn as it only adds to the negativity and depression

Zen,

Are you saying that now that the republicans were able to cut off the free money, you are willing to look for a job, seriously now? Possibly outside of architecture? Or do you mean to say you are going homeless?

Find Work on china is one damn good option.

On the fence - unemployment is not enough to survive, it is barely enough to pay my rent in NY, and I am constantly looking for job, its not like I am bathing in luxury by receiving unemployment benefits. Also its not free money, in order to claim unemployment you were supposed to have an income, and from that income they deduct a thing called "tax" which covers my unemployment. Do your research, there is nothing free!

OK. Sure. And when you had a job you paid taxes for X amount of unemployment in terms of months. Nobody has paid an extra dime for the extra months of unemployment given out by the current administration. But I am not really bitching about that, so much. I am asking the question, will the new cutoff from the meager funds you were receiving force you to look outside the box of architecture that you are currently looking at? Will you re-evaluate your next move now that there is NO money coming in or will you sit there waiting for a job to open up at an architecture office doing what you used to do?

Actually, in most jurisdictions your employer pays this tax, above and beyond your wages -- nothing is taken from your paycheck to cover unemployment taxes.

Where exactly do you suggest us unemployed architects look for work on the fence? The design industry as a whole is tanking, so it's not like one of the related fields (interiors, construction management, etc) is going to open it's doors to the mass of us that are out of work.

That leaves one of two options, look for work in a different profession or resort back to high school and work retail/food service jobs. Either way it's a hard sell to an employer who will immediately assume (and rightly so) that as soon as an architecture job opens up we will jump ship. Why should they expend the time and effort to train someone who they know is temporary at best? And again I point out that there is not a pool of jobs available in either option, at least not ones that would not require extensive amounts of additional education (and more debt).

"it's a hard sell to an employer who will immediately assume (and rightly so) that as soon as an architecture job opens up we will jump ship. Why should they expend the time and effort to train someone who they know is temporary at best?"

I'm also looking for a job in retail/food industry now as well as in architecture.My answer to that question will start with a scoff and follow like this "With the salaries in architecture profession these days I'd keep waiting tables even if I DID get a F/T position in architecture".My student loans will start in August and I have credit card debt around 2.5K.There is no way an architecture job alone will help me pay that debt! Honestly speaking...

If you were to apply for a job in retail or food services, and really wanted the job, I would suggest you leave both the portfolio and resume at home. In fact on the employment form I'd probably drop the fact you had a college level education. Just my 2 cents here.

Now back on track to what we should be doing. I'd suggest outside of this field of architecture mostly. If inside, then you need to be looking for work, not a job or employment. Unemployment benifits is creating a vaccum. As long as some money is coming in, people will not try and create new places of business which is what they should be doing right now. Form a new company, spend some of that money we all do not have and can not seem to get through the banks <sarcasm>. It ain't going to be easy folks, but this is what it comes down to now. Fish or cut bait. The recession isn't going away any time soon. Jobs in this field are not coming back any time soon. So on to other careers or jobs or try and start up your own.

5-15 years of experiance in architecture, you should be starting up your own small at home companys and looking for any work. Design wood decks if you have to. And don't forget Starbucks, McD's and anything else that could bring in some extra money between the wood deck and the front stoop your neighbor needs built.

Fresh out of school, I'd suggest not staying in school for architecture. Maybe try something very different if staying in school or apply to jobs not related to this field. College degree in architecture can get you a job in any field that accepts a lib arts degree or similar too you know.

Sorry to rain on the parade here. I know it aint easy. I don't have easy answers for any of us. What I do know is this field is at about 50% of what it used to be for another 2-5 years but we still have all these interns and architects looking for a job/employment. Time to get creative.

I'm in New York right now looking for a job.

There's some jobs in the creative industry to be found. But selling adds for NBC for $32,000 a year isn't exactly a good job.

Also, not a single call back from anywhere.

sometimes you have to scrape the bottom of the tank to realize other avenues....i was almost homeless on 2 occasions and close to visiting the soup kitchen....but managed to look into other directions for work....

"other avenues"

I like how no one will elaborate on what exactly "other avenues" are on these discussion forums, as if the architectural profession is some East LA gang and the only way out is death or disappearing.

I hope On The Fence gets laid off for a year or more...then the grade school economic rhetoric might change a bit.

Don't get me wrong...I wish no hardship on anyone in particular...my issue is with the premise that there shouldn't be a social saftey net and anyone can find work if they just look. True you may find a "job", but it may not pay enough to live on, then what, do you take it just because there is no other option. Where is the dignity in that?

""other avenues"

I like how no one will elaborate on what exactly "other avenues" are on these discussion forums, as if the architectural profession is some East LA gang and the only way out is death or disappearing."



guess you don't really follow my posts....

well, other avenues....

set design/construction/exhibit-autoshows/build/models/etc.....



the architecture field really what it's all cracked up to be.... go get your builders license and swing a hammer for once..... i know a few folks that are doing ok by doing small residential projects.....(that don't require an arch's stamp).....

Dignity? What the freak are you on?

The situation right now, I would say is dire. Like another poster said above, he was almost homeless twice and close to visiting the soup kichen. You can wish me all the ill will you want but that is reality knocking on everyones door and that thudding sound should be much louder if you are in this field.

So you can understand Dsal. In the simplest architectural terms. View the field of architecture and related fields as a home. You are walking down the street and you see your home ahead. It's on fire. Not just a little smoke but flames are shooting out all the windows. Do you enter the home? The answer is "maybe". It depends on who you are and what skills you have to enter this home. Some have what it takes, but far too few. The rest need to stand back and do something else then enter into the home. This may be you. me or anyone else on this board. The fire will be put out at some time in the future but that is years away and even after the fire is put out, it will take time to redesign and rebuild this house.

SO IT IS TIME TO STOP PRETENDING.

If you have a skill that might allow you to open up a franchise such as a fast food restaurant. This may be your time to do so. Maybe you can mix drinks. Apply as a bartender. Been cutting your brothers and sisters hair since you were 12? Guess what? Barber/hairdresser. Other avenues my friends.

I know those are technically "other avenues" if we consider architecture to be strictly relegated to buildings and I don't intend to belittle them as professional pursuits, however everything you mention, in my mind, falls under the larger umbrella of architecture. Some of those things I have done as part of employment in an architectural firm (in addition to buildings).

uprock - right - you're interested in the act of making things - which translates pretty well to other stuff - I'm sure there's a ton of things where you get to work with your hands that you'd find interesting enough to do for a while.

for me, I'm primarily interested in sustainability and community development/education, and I have somewhat of an interest in software and programming, so I could theoretically find work in planning departments, CDCs (community development corporations), arty non-profits, education, environmental work, and in graphics-orientated software - and still get something meaningful out of it. I've actually worked with CDCs and in education, and I know if I were to switch I'd be happy in either field. I don't really see it as "jumping ship" just something else on the "things I am interested in" spectrum.

I think if your only goal is to "find architecture work" then you're really not thinking big enough (either that, or you are a boring person who's only goal in life is to become a cog in the architecture machine).

and just because you have a degree in architecture doesn't mean you can't get work in another field - my younger brother has a degree in history and he currently writes software for a biotech company.

Personally I think there is enormous dignity in doing whatever you need to do to survive and especially to support your family.

The problem with this recession - depression, more like - is even the low paying miserable McJobs don't exist.

That said, I know three architects currently in McJobs: barback, FedEx warehouse, and Home Depot floor.

Donna,

I think dignity is what they saved by doing whatever they had/have to do.

Courage or courageous is the term I would use to describe these folks.

Courage - mental or moral strength to venture, persevere, and withstand danger, fear, or difficulty

Not to evoke Godwin's law or anything...

But I hope you remember this little event that happen in 1948.

You know that thing that happened previous to that? The whole carpet bombing, holocausting, mustard gassing thing?

Yeah.

In 1948, all the First World countries got together and signed a little document that promised that the First World would never act like crazed rabid animals?

You know, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that reaffirmed the reasoning for creating the United Nations Charter.

Well, there's a small itsy bitsy line in it.

" ... reaffirmed faith in fundamental human rights, and dignity and worth of the human person" and committed all member states to promote "universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion."

That line.

With all of its historical revisionism and all of its imperialism, one facet of European culture has always been gentility. In fact, other people in the world still refer to us as "gentiles."

We were gentile for a reason.

All that frou frou, soft speaking, powdered whig wearing, panty hose pulled up to the armpits and fanciful dancing... a lot of it was, you know, about being the most dignified person.

While at face value it may not seem like that, European culture has always prized itself on fairness (whether it actually existed or not), opportunity and strict adherence to social contracts.

You know, if we're just going to say the hell with fairness and dignity... we all might as well just call it quits.

Because I don't think 3 millenia of history in rectifying injustice in the natural world should be just wasted because it is no longer convenient in our very modern world.

On the fence - sure I looked for outside the box solutions to finding work, but the only place I could find with my B.Arch was mcdonalds or intern at some graphics agency which pays less then my unemployment.

on the fence, I'm just curious what you are doing right now for employment? I just want to make sure your claims are justifiably backed-up with actual experience.

I suppose many, if not most, here are way too young to have enjoyed strong relationships with relatives who were born in the 1910-1930 period. These folks grew up and became adults during the Great Depression. The Great Depression shaped their lives - and their attitudes - in ways that we can barely understand today.

Both of my parents were born in the early 20s. They completed high school in the second half of the 30's and became adults during WW2. They never knew luxury growing up; each was the first in their family to attend college. In so many ways, they were fairly typical of their generation.

When I listen to them speak of those days, I realized how different their frame of reference was from my own during my 20s and 30s. And, when I compare their perspective to that of my own children -- who all are recent college grads -- the difference is even more pronounced. They had no sense of entitlement whatsoever -- they were fundamentally self-sufficient.

So many who grew up during the Great Depression emerged with the idea that a "job" was more important than a "career" -- especially a career dedicated to self-actualization. As Donna indicates above, their dominant aim was to support themselves and their families.

I relate this story neither to criticize nor to change anybody's attitude about anything -- this recession sucks and it's doing terrible things to way too many people. But, there are lessons in the Great Depression and I believe those lessons resonate with the resiliancy of the human spirit. While there may be disappointments along the way, you all will survive, you all will perservere and you all will make the adaptations necessary to live a very reasonable and happy life. In that, I am quite confident.

Yeah but the Great Depression was fundamentally solved by the deaths of tens of millions of people.

World War II killed over 66,000,000 people in less than 8 years. And various events before and after that also resulted in the deaths of millions of people.

When you have the expansion in the age previous and after the great depression (massive infrastructure project, massive real estate developments et cetera) and then you remove close to 80,000,000 people from a combined population of about 600,000,000 people (US and Europe)... that's a significant redistribution of wealth.

I've been over this previously.

I am a licensed architect with about 13 years experience. Several years strictly commercial work and 9 years mixed 70%/30% custom residential/commercial.

Prior to that during college I worked anything but found a gig the last two years at a city engineering dept. Internship.

Prior to that I was in the military for 4 years. Talk about being underpaid and overworked.

Prior to that I worked everything crappy such as fast food, bagging groceries, carrying rich peoples golf bags, hardware stores, mercantile, etc so on and so forth.

Fortunatly today, I am working as a plans examiner at a village. And I am very grateful I have this job. In 2006 I saw the writing on the wall. I worked about 4 hours a day but paid for 8. Started to look around and knew another job in architecture, directly, was dangerous. So I looked out on the periphery. 2 years later in 2008 this job came up. 200 plus people applied for it. Like I said I am very grateful I have this job. My previous employer is down to a 4 man firm and they have 24 hour weeks, no insurance, pay at 70% and no work either. He hasn't had a paycheck in 2 years.

Do I pass the test?

Onthefence--

While I agree with you in principle, you seem grossly out of touch. I'm also curious as to whether or not you are employed and what your level of experience may be.

Now, maybe you can explain how my having or not having a job, whatever job that is, makes me out of touch. What I do see, on a day to day basis, is how much architecture work is being actually physically built in a city with a population near 50,000. I can compare that to my own past work experiences. It ain't pretty.

On the fence - you certainly have experience and can jump around jobs that are somewhat related to your field which are way better than flipping burgers at mcdonalds or selling tshirt at a mall. But I can't afford to get a low income job, I am in debt to my neck in college loans (+100k), I have 2 years of professional experience and a degree in B.Arch, my chances of getting decent job are very slim with all competition out there but I am trying to get a decent job just so I can pay for my loans, and feed myself, and afford rent as well. Right now, I said F@#K to all my creditors because I am unemployed, they are not getting a single penny from me now, those bastards. Its either good job and I pay them, or no job and unemployment benefits and they can go to hell.

1st. I agree that if you qualify for benifits, take them.
2nd. I hope you are actually looking for a decent job.
3rd. When the benfits run out, and they will, what are you going to do then? McD's may start looking good then.
4th. I understand how upset you are about the situation and the debt. Explain again to me how your debt, for a degree you chose and profession you also chose is their fault and requires non payment on your part?
5th. If it came down to food, shelter or my debt, I'd do the same as you.

The degree is not their fault, but I wish they could give me affordable payments, I can't pay them $1200/month now, they won't accept anything lower, there are no consolidation services anymore because economy is in a S#$thole, there is basically no way out for poor unemployed people. Its like a cleansing of the poor, a freaking middle class genocide... And yes, I will probably end up in mcdonalds for the rest of my life, living in a section 8 apartment in ghetto with most of my wages being garnished by student loan companies. God bless USA!

I am not trying to sit here and upset everyone on this BB. I'm not mr. Doom and Gloom for fun. The reality is what the reality is. And in good times it didn't make much sense to get $100,000 in student loans for this field. Now I understand times are extra tuff and a lot of you are straped with this huge debt and no job. For years I have been telling people not to get an M.Arch in this field. To this day people still argue with me over it. Can't undue it now though. What you can do is accept the reality. If you have $100,000 in student debt right now, it is time to seek employment outside of an architecture office. Period. If you are sitting around for the world to fix itself and provide you a job/employment, get used to that chair.

I try to offer good and honest advice based on what I know from what I have read, have experienced and what I am seeing currently. Not easy happy go lucky advice. Not advice that shoots smoke up your backsides.

i agree with on the fence..

I moved out of a 1-bdrm place in DC ($1400/month) to another place not too far away for half of that. Should have done that a LONG time ago....

not true zen maker. you can consolidate loans through the gov and get on the income based repayment plan. so if you're income is 0, you pay 0. i doubt you are having to pay $1200 a month and don't have the means to pay it because otherwise you would have looked into it.

and on the fence, you appear to be blowing smoke up your own ass. i'm sure people are well aware of their own economic situation. the last thing people need is a condescending lecture from a douchebag like you.

AMEN dot.

on the fence-

for starters, having a license and experience affords you the ability to transition to related industries with a bit more ease than someone fresh out of school with a limited amount of experience, at least that has been my observation over the last year.

second, the whole M.Arch debate is so old. In order to get licensed in most states NCARB now requires a professional degree, which is either a 5 year program, or a 4+2. The 5 year program is not always an attractive option (or available), which requires many to go the 4+2 M.Arch route. It's been debated repeatedly on this site, and given how long ago you went to school I know you will be incapable of understanding that the rules have changed.

Thanks.

Your input has great value in this.

cherith,

you know absolutly nothing about my capablities in understanding the former or current school system. As far as NCARB is concerned and sitting for the exams, I do believe there are still alternate paths to those listed in your previous. Being as intellectually adept as you seem, I am surprised you didn't ever pick up on them. I even recall that in some states a mere 4 year degree will get you a license. In fact I believe many states still alow the experianced architect route.

Too bad your too upset to actually discuss this.

And yes, we have gone over the 4+2, 5, 5+1, and 4+3 avenues. It's a freakin educational as well as financial mess.

Also, thanks for upgrading me to grandpa.

I'm in my early 40's having graduated way back in the mid 90's.

Such a long time ago. So speak up so I can hear ya, whipper snapper.

"Now, maybe you can explain how my having or not having a job, whatever job that is, makes me out of touch. What I do see, on a day to day basis, is how much architecture work is being actually physically built in a city with a population near 50,000. I can compare that to my own past work experiences. It ain't pretty."

Condescending--that was the word I was looking for.

You seem to be offering advice to 'the rest of us.' I would like to know where that advice is coming from. If you don't want to sahre, fine, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously either. You seem bothered by the latter. Age has nothing to do with it in my opinion.

Cherith,

Also, as much as we feel that the license and 10-15 years of experience allows me some wiggle room to find employment inside of architecture, I can only tell you this.

My previous employer who is 52, owns his own firm, is licensed, has the 4+2 degree (yes they had the 4+2 long before I or you came along in the late 90's), has zero wiggle room now. Who is going to hire him? He was making $120,000/year (guestimate) prior to 2007. Now he makes $000,000/year. Has 2 kids in college. No equity in his home or business anymore. Boy that sure is wiggle room, eh? People don't want to hire "over the hill" architects at this moment for much of anything. He might be able to get a job as greeter at wall mart though.

Condescention???? Larchinect???

"While I agree with you in principle, you seem grossly out of touch." She/he says while looking down the bridge of his/her nose.

This one by cherith was a keeper too.

"It's been debated repeatedly on this site, and given how long ago you went to school I know you will be incapable of understanding that the rules have changed. "

Whatever dude. I'm not even going to bother addressing your comments on this discussion thread because they are clearly self-congratulatory grandstanding.

I'd just like to apologize at this time.

You guys are clearly right and I am wrong. The advice I have been giving is outdated and has no place in this forum. I would also like to state that I clearly had an alterior motive to grandstand and demean those who are not employed at this time. My bad. I do hope all the best to you students, recent graduates and interns as well as licensed architects in your careers in architecture as I am certain this recession will turn around soon.

Good luck.

ice age comin.' ice age comin.'

"and on the fence, you appear to be blowing smoke up your own ass. i'm sure people are well aware of their own economic situation. the last thing people need is a condescending lecture from a douchebag like you. "

A yes the plans examiner? fundamentally correct but the delivery and tact of a douche bag.