So, let me get this straight. It's ok to pirate software because "we need to" and "Autodesk already has enough money".

What's your attitude going to be when that homebuilder client builds seven identical homes using the plans he paid you for one time? Or, when the retail developer uses your strip center plans to build the same basic project in three separate cities, hoping you won't notice?

Stealing is stealing, no matter how you guys try to spin it.

but we'd never sign shaky contracts like that, distant!


in all seriousness i understand you, though

So, that means you are sorta ok with software piracy by small firms and individuals ?

What choice do these smaller firms have?Given how expensive these programs are, I sort of understand how the smaller firms or individuals resort to using pirated programs. The company I was working for (the one that had to settle w/ Autodesk) couldn't buy full versions for all computers, so only the seniors had the full version while the others worked on the LT, which posed a problem for the ones working on LT.

There are "outsourced" jobs available to individuals right now. Given that real jobs are are unavailable, people will take those outsourced gigs...You don't expect those unemployed individuals to go find themselves a licensed version of CAD to earn extra bucks.

Same goes to freelancers who have small projects and are just embarking on their architectural career.

I singled out big firms because obviously, they have the resources to buy those programs. That's just a fraction of any one of their projects.

Autodesk should come up with a more consumer friendly version of AutoCAD

I'm amazed at how many people defend software piracy here. No wonder it is such a struggle for firms like the one I work at which does purchase all its software legitimately. I guess it really doesn't matter because eventually all of our jobs are going to be relocated to some office in China operating entirely on pirated software with no fear of retribution.

>>>>Oh, trust me, Autodesk will get you if they can, regardless of your location.

I worked outside the U.S and believe me, there was a string of raids by the police force and Autodesk prior to the company I was working for. Companies ranged from 5 computer offices to offices with 50++ employees. Go figure.

Let he that is without sin cast the first stone

i bet everyone here learn photoshops, autocad, 3dmax, maya, rhino.... porn.... by purchasing the licenses!

come on!

success is the best revenge to ur former employer! architects dun stitch period!

It isn't about piracy. It's about which moment you do something against it. Simply put: autodesk, adobe etc invest loads of money in R&D of their programs. So to me, it's fair that they charge you for that. The only real alternative is open source software (gimp is a pretty suitable substitution for photoshop etcetera). You can think about all kinds of cop-outs and reasons to claim your righteousness for using pirated software in a professional environment by inventing reasons (it's too expensive, autodesk is already rich, I have a small firm, others are doing it too, otherwise we cannot compete with the Chinese or whatever): it's all bullshit reasoning. It's piracy, no matter how you turn it.

I think most people view piracy the same way they do speeding. Unless you get caught, you really haven't done anything wrong.

I don't subscribe to that philospohy though. Someone, an engineer, had to put man hours into the softeware. It's really a sad world we live in these days. Like another said above, how would you feel when you design a building once and it gets built ten times for one initial fee. Unless your fee covered that, you'd feel screwed and you'd do something about it.

You might want to turn in all the employees who stole software from the firms they work for....then you could be a rich person....not work weekends or holidays....or even have to work again. I always found those stealing things in an office where really not my kind of people to begin with, so why not bugger the buggers... ta ta.

I just realized why my computer skills aren't up to par, I have no pirated software to practice on!!!

all for pirates...none for rats

There's been an explosion of software and rendering program use that is pretty ridiculous if you think about it. 30 years ago some nice watercolors and a perspective were just fine to communicate a design idea.

Why do people now need to have the technical proficiency of a cartoon artist at Pixar? For 1/10th the salary?

Seeing the want ads with their endless lists or requirements is depressing.. There is ZERO emphasis on the person, or a person's talent. Everyone has been reduced to technicians.

Occasionally I'll see the rebellious ad requesting hand drawing, sketching and perspective ability and I just laugh - does anyone have those skills anymore?

i was never the snitching type. I’m more of the slashing tires type of guy or an eye-for-an-eye. But never a rat.

The de-contextualized, ethically correct thing to do is probably to report the company to the BSA (which, apparently, has the power to raid your company- http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html .) However, in context, it's not like anyone's hands are really clean here. The firms are not really being held to the letter of the law, but the letter of the law in combination with industry dynamics seem to unfairly favor a very few predatory ( http://www.baselinemag.com/c/a/Enterprise-Apps/After-20-Years-Critics-Question-the-BSAs-Real-Motives/ ) software and service companies at the expense of a whole industry.

Sometimes, I will run across a business that charges an extra fifty cents or whatever for using a credit card. Technically, it (was) against the credit card agreement, but even if I didn't like the place, I liked the credit card companies less; hence, I wouldn't report them. On the surface, it seems sort of similar; if you like the monopoly-software company more than the ethically-questionable firm, it may be one factor weighing in on the decision. (I don't.)

On the other hand, firms that use pirated software are basically perpetuating the dominance of monopoly software, file formats, etc. through their continued use. If they had gone with a less-expensive competitor (assuming there was one), or if they had pooled their efforts to create or amend some kind of open source solution, the market share for competing software would increase; we'd actually have more competition and variety in software (instead of having to spend hundreds to thousands of dollars for non-upgrade 'upgrades' that don't really add anything, like AutoCAD, although at least BIM feels like it's advancing nowadays).

Maybe it's better long-term for the industry if there's a clampdown on piracy - people would find or make alternatives to the system that they have in place now. Granted, you are probably not going to be that clampdown yourself.

Sorry but there is a big difference between being a poor student who can:

A: Pirate the software
B: Not have it on their resume and not get a job

and a business owner who makes a profit using the product.


AAARRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHH ;)

the lack of ethics displayed in this thread is really appalling and in many ways explains the state of our economy. if you do not see a correlation between the "me first" attitude in this thread, and the "me first" attitude that sank the real estate market, the banking industry, fueled consumer debt and corporate greed in general you need to look again. i need to take a bath after reading this one.

Fraud by the banksters might explain the state of our economy better.

Writing mortgages they knew would fail, but didn't give a shit because they sold them might possibly have more to do with the problems in the real estate market.

I am basically repeating what this guy said. Of course if your more of an expert about the economy won and done just post your qualifications.

since when has 'me first' ever NOT been the gist of american ideology

take your bath, then get over it

my 2 cents: i am also surprised at how many offices use copied SW, and appalled at the common excuse "its too expensive". a BMW is also too expensive for me atm but i don't go and steal one.

there are many options out there, yes you will have to learn new SW if you use something like vectorworks or even opensource stuff like blender but thats the deal.

when i decided to start my own office i looked at the alternatives use one of them as a replacement to autocad, it works - ok, it has some little bugs but costing 3% of the price of autoCAD i can handle that.

Would you rat on this guy?



"You've just learned the two most important lessons in life: never rat on your friends, and always keep your mouth shut."

One more point before I head to back to work on my (legit) copy of AutoCAD:

People rarely realize that theft of Intelectual Property (IP) is not a petty crime, it is a FEDERAL FELONY OFFENSE and depending what the IP was, how the IP was used/abused, the scope of the IP piracy, the judge, and various other factors, can actually land people in FEDERAL MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISON with a "Guilty" verdict for YEARS. If anyone seriously hates their former employers enough to send them to this fate while simultaneously screwing all of their previous co-workers out of a job when the office closes and risking being forever branded as snitch (which means you're now unemployable) then they have serious personal issues simple revenge won't solve.

My point being: so you've worked for some douchebags in your day, tough shit, we all have. Now cowboy/cowgirl the fuck up and get on with your life.



"So what are you in for?"
"I bootleged a copy of AutoCAD."

Apurimac, your mentality ultimately accepts corruption.

Corruption at its most basic definition is a lack of integrity and honesty. In the most basic definition of corruption in organizational terms, corruption is inducement through improper means.

Anyone who works within a corrupt organization, whether they choose the improper means or not, is guilty of corruption.

So, yes. Everyone who continues to work on illegal software to produce for-profit works, especially after the fact it is known, is willingly committing crimes and being an accessory to corrupt practices.

By not cracking down on these offenses, even with slaps on the wrists or ceremonial punishment, we create an unjust system where fair play and honesty no longer work.

Hell, cronyism and nepotism run rampant through the architecture industry. That's because firms hire friends, friends of friends, relatives, spouses and so on. Firms are not necessarily hiring people through the proper channels using proper metrics that.

That's corruption. Is it illegal corruption? No. Is it unethical? Not necessarily. Is it improper? You bet. We have annoying blunt rules for a purpose. They're made to bend and flex a little bit. Some rules have gaping holes in them. And everyone knows that zero tolerance laws hurt more than they help.

Even software companies know this. They have demos, extended trial licenses, some give their software away to students and the self-taught. They even make them affordable and some software companies let schools and universities put copies on every single one of their computers even if the licenses says they technically can't. Some companies even ignore blatant piracy from non-commercial entities.

But a professional organization that employs people who have taken legal oaths to represent themselves honestly, to do no harm and to not break the law is a little bit different than say a company that only uses a piece of software to make a intracompany newsletter or a two-bit graphic designer who doesn't even make a poverty-level income.

Architects want protected legal status. They got it. They need to learn that protected legal status means they have to be more mindful of the law than the ordinary citizen.

And I'm double posting that point twice:

who have taken legal oaths to represent themselves honestly, to do no harm and to not break the law

From the NCARB code of conduct:

RULE 4 COMPLIANCE WITH LAWS
4.1 An architect shall not, in the conduct of his/her architectural practice, knowingly violate any state or federal criminal law.

Uxbridge, you misinterpret my point. I personally feel that firms should run legit copies of software, but I have bigger issues with disloyal rats, who, rather than snitching because "its the right thing to do", snitch because there is financial and emotional rewards in it for them.

i'm surprised by the schoolyard-justice comments... disloyal rats? come on. what is this, the mob? as far as i know, when you work for a firm, you don't owe your undying loyalty. at least i don't remember any finger-pricking ceremony...

would snitching be petty and vindictive? maybe. would it be wrong? not as far as the law is concerned. what these firms are doing is illegal, and they must know what they're letting themselves in for.

if you choose to pirate software for your own use, at least you're the one taking the risk. if you have employees, you're involving them as well. and frankly, if you can afford to hire employees, you can afford a CAD license. so basically, they're asking for it.

in a perfect world, employers and employees would respect each other. as things stand now, in most cases, the business of business is business. your employers are not your friends, and unless you have an exceptional employer (who would probably not pirate software) your loyalty will go in one direction only.

you don't owe your ex employers anything. and if you had a bad relationship with them, they're probably not going to give you a good reference anyway. i've seen this happen, by employers who felt no qualms about jeopardizing the future prospects of their ex employees by taking out their own vindictive revenge when a new prospective employer calls....

...or by refusing to sign off on idp hours, thus screwing the ex employee over for years.....

...or by refusing to sign off on idp hours, thus screwing the ex employee over for years.....

if you run illegal software at your firm, you risk getting caught. simple as that

all talk about "snitching" is a bit ridiculous. Architects are not the mob, are not a gang.

And even if they were, if someone is "snitching" on you, its because you are doing something illegal. You arent innocent no matter how much architects love to play the victim in everything


It's incredibly petty by the person to go out of their way to get a former employer in trouble. But lets not turn this into something its not.




Besides. If your idea of running a business is to use pirated software to save yourself money, perhaps you should treat your employees better so they wont go so far out of their way to screw you later on

poiuy

Total Entries: 9
Total Comments: 49

01/02/11 20:14 There's been an explosion of software and rendering program use that is pretty ridiculous if you think about it. 30 years ago some nice watercolors and a perspective were just fine to communicate a design idea.

Why do people now need to have the technical proficiency of a cartoon artist at Pixar? For 1/10th the salary?

Seeing the want ads with their endless lists or requirements is depressing.. There is ZERO emphasis on the person, or a person's talent. Everyone has been reduced to technicians.

Occasionally I'll see the rebellious ad requesting hand drawing, sketching and perspective ability and I just laugh - does anyone have those skills anymore?

---
You're describing my career. Eleven years out of school, I find I now need to revamp my entire software education. Even AutoCAD is almost now irrelevant. I'm not sure it's all even worth the trouble these days. Laugh now, recent grads, but it will happen to you too. Employers like to hire the cheapest cadmonkey labor out of school with the latest and greatest software knowledge while simultaneously killing off the majority of the mid-generation with all the gained construction knowledge at their prime. Architecture's problems go far beyond just the recession. This whole conversation depresses me. Obviously if companies were paid what they're worth, everyone would alreadly legally have the software. If everybody bought the software, it wouldn't cost nearly as much, as well. The morally-sound company spends more for the software because the morally-defunct company didn't. It's a snake eating its tail.

Another note: I realize many firms survive financially on pirated software. But I have to be amazed at the poo poo'ing going on about someone doing something morally & legally just by narking on, in essence, a thief. Then turning around and writing off the blacklisting of the narker by the narkee as something apparently ok and normal with this industry. Blacklisting and defaming another person is even worse than pirating software. It's amazing how desensitized we all are to the continued corruptive business practices of this industry. Through these comments, I see little hope the abusive nature of the building industry will ever change for the better.

Actually, I would say a large part of Generation Y has the understanding that they will be living in or near poverty for the rest of their adult lives.

They also accept that they live in a failing environment with failing infrastructure that they will work their entire lives to pay off with little money to spend on community investment.

Your generation had cheap gas, cars and fun.

Their generation will get to experience cholera, tuberculosis and foreign government debt service.

my reply after beekay31s post branches out into a new topic so I started a new thread.

How about ratting out all those employees who walk out of the office with pirated software. You going to rat out your cad-monkey friend?

Uxbridge,

Kind of off-topic but we certainly didn't have fun or cheap gas. I graduated in '99, barely survived a long recession in '01, bought a motorcycle in '04 to combat ridiculous gas prices, and got obliterated along with everyone else in '08. Not fun. Actually, if you took up architecture it probably meant you were ok with living in near-poverty conditions in the first place. Yep, find a career that pays consistent health benefits.

Jbushkey,

Link's not working.

Are employers looking for software or construction knowledge? thread

My this seems to be a mercenary crowd.