I'm curious how people's salaries have changed over time. I'm not looking as much for elaborate explanations as I am for solid numbers at mile stones in your career (got a promotion salary went up, was laid off had to take a lower salary at a new job). I'm especially curious to see how the salary of people who have been in the profession for 10+ years so there is data going back pre-2007/8 recession.
I started out of school with a M-Arch @ 250k in 2004, which I thought was very low at the time, I got a raise in 2006, to 350k and was given access to the company helicopter, but both the raise and the helicopter were revoked in 2008 at the start of the recession. Since things are back on the up and up, my company bought me a vacation house, a condo near work, and a small private island in the Caribbean as a Christmas bonus. I'm still not satisfied financially, but I am hopeful for 2014!
Pay is generally laughable and shitty all the way through.
I am a practicing architect and would have been happy to do something else besides for architecture in favor of better pay now that I have seen just how big of a joke the profession is and how all of our leaders simply destroyed the profession and sold out on it. Basically everyone gets paid better than us.
Umm .. med ... since you're such hot shit and since everybody else in the profession is such a total fu*kup, why don't you get your ass off your current employer's payroll, start your own firm, and just show the rest of us how it should be done. Obviously you're the only one around who's got it all figured out. For you, it should be totally easy.
Can't wait to see what outrageously high salaries you pay your employees!
I'm more concerned with wages not increasing over time - maybe there's a handy AIA document out there that shows how wages have changed over the last 30 years but I haven't come across something like that. The point of my initial question seems to be lost. If you were making 30k in 1995 your money was worth more in 1995 than it is now - everything cost less in 1995 than it does today - hence my question about salary over time. The archinect salary poll only captures salaries for the last couple years.
no - not at all. I just tire of med's constant bellyaching about how his evil employers will never pay him the vast sums that he's certain (in his own mind) that he's worth.
digger: "vast sums" lol.. i think many of us just want to earn more than the 22 year old general biz degree who just graduated; starting pay $52k.... what do i make now? $55k with 6+ years of post-school work experience lol. The value of our 5-6 years of education, licensure and often 40+ hour work weeks, zero profit sharing, no 401k match, small bonuses, etc etc equates to a very low wage per education attainment.
But if you're like me: you most likely had no finance or business class in your 5-7 years of education at art-itecture school. So, you don't understand how markets work. My boss' don't understand... how could he? They all go on hiring frenzies the minute we get new work. Architects learn on the fly when it comes to finance; and they are very bad at it.
*original poster: you have to realize that any discussion on MONEY is TABOO in this fcking profession. TABOO.. so be careful for the diggers out there....lol
Brief: I went and worked for the national firm-of the year a few years ago; after the recession. I had 3 years experience. My buddy - perhaps the most talented in my class - recommended me. We worked on a Steven Holl project. I was offered $12/hour. I have a 5 year arch degree with a top portfolio and honors GPA. $12/hour. Top ranked undergrad school. My friend and I would sometimes hit up the gas station for snacks lol ; well; we joked about the job ads there "Gas Station Manager: starting $45k with 3 years sales experience"... his pay was decreased after recession to like $36k probably. How pathetic, the REALITY huh? Well; he left a year later to work as a corporate campus facilities manager and started making what our 40 year old PM was probably making. This is what happens when you have a child and can't make it on architect shit pay. My other top talented friend has left the profession because he could only make decent money at SOM in Chicago by working 70 hour weeks. I'm leaving the profession this summer for good. I missed all the queues over the past 3 years to leave... and now I'm growing gray hair at 30 because it will be 15 years until I earn what my g/f makes in sales. It would take me 4x my pay to just afford the average home prices in my metro.... it's interesting that all my colleagues live in the suburbs (cheap and shitty there) ... while I live in the best neighborhood. Thanks girlfriend!!
So for the original poster: i was first to get licensed in my class... got me a nice ass $1k bonus baby at age 27 or so? ..Sure was "worth" it.
2008 - fresh grad - $45k (included bonus)
2009 - 45k (laid off 6 months) - firm split in half.
2013 - $55k includes bonus (firm split in half aka is going under... got a new job)
2013-current - $53k on pace to match last year or a bit more lol
*notice 2 times having to leave offices due to firms sinking. This is why we've seen no pay increase since 2008 (reference the newest Design Intelligence Compensation Report to verify - it's true)
*If you ask your boss why the pay is so shitty...well; they admit it! lol. Isn't that amusing? But they'll argue, well what is your 'market value' at your level and experience?... This is their counter-argument that is really saying "i can go out and get someone to work for shit and replace you tomorrow so take your pennies and be happy".... well; because architects don't understand markets; and supply and demand or money/bonus incentives... it's actually a grave insight into our current professional status. We have too many architects, who don't know shit out of school, have a low barrier to entry (easy degree to achieve - yes, it is) and have ever lowering fees in competition among other firms fighting for fees. What gets lowered in a market of over supply and fighting business? Labor cost is reduced in order to make up low fees... and there is NO incentive to make money in an arch firm (unless you're one of the few who can bring in big projects). And what is the arch firms 'standard of growth' ? It's how 'big' a firm is... "number of employees"; NOT "revenue per employee". What's interesting is my firm is one of the biggest and highest revenue making firms in my city ... but if you do the numbers... we have in fact the LOWEST revenue per employee. I see new hires every other week ... NO INCENTIVE to get work done quicker or more efficently for current employees. Why? Money is a sore subject... we HIRE when we have work... then we lay off if shit hits the fan. It's a cycle of using low paying labor in order to make the numbers work... and hence the reason the current sad, disgruntled state of young architects.
Anyways long fcnk post here my apologies; but MY POINT 'digger' , you smart ass, is that the reason behind this profession degrading away and lowing talent is because we ARE PAID SO POORLY !!! yes; our profession is failing because we lost any sense of knowing how to make money and reward those who worked to make money... over hiring and paying low wages. The talented leave and the dumbies remain unchanged and unknowing of good business practices to change the course. Of course, it'd be nice if they taught us something of value in college...
You know its tough when your younger brother who studied computer engineering gets hired before he graduates with a 80K/year pay, switches between 3 firms in 5 years because his options are plentiful and has pushed up his pay to 200K/year, while here I sit jobless, with a huge university debt still shadowing me.
But I must remind myself, I'm in it for job satisfaction and not the pay ><
I'd be willing to bet if zoning laws allowed us to build - and we considered doing design-build work - we could all be making salaries comparable to the computer engineer. Housing is the biggest expense most people make, and we could supply that market - the market with the most money. Unfortunately, the gov has found ways to tax our industry much MUCH deeper and more subtlety than computer engineering.
Also, we would need to provide more opportunity for entrepreneurship. There is no license acting as a barrier to entry into computer engineering - so the salaries can be distributed according to skill and knowledge instead of company ownership.
pale shelter - this is one of the best posts i've read on archinect ever. kudos. happy to hear you're working after more than your share of mishaps.
digger - pray tell how someone pointing out that the profession is plagued by salary dumping in your brain transforms into someone thinking they're "hot shit"? it has nothing to do with some wishy washy and subjective notion of what people "think they're worth". any statistics if you know how to read them will tell you that this profession has an untenable report between cost of education and total wages during a typical career. not even counting all the overtime, hire and fire and all the other bs offices deal in to keep afloat.
other highly educated professional categories where licensing is required have figured out how to either make themselves indispensable and without flooding the profession with recent grads, or how to bill all the hours worked. architects haven't. where i live and work the architect's perhaps closest counterparts, the structural engineers, get paid 40% more as grads (0 work experience) than the architectural grads (i know this because i've been involved in hiring both kinds within the same graduation year). i can assure you that in terms of the usefulness to real projects in a real office, both types of grads are of equally little use and in need of the same amount of hand holding and oversight.
architects - employers and employees - bear the sole responsibility for their salary situation.
First professional (intern) job post graduating BArch $26,000/year with good benefits.
$3,000 a year raise for each of first 3 years, so $35,000 after 3 years when I left.
New job in a new city, started at $45,000 salaried. $48,000 after a year there. Got minuscule bonuses too, ranges from $7 to $250.
at 5.5 years of experience $56,000 salaried with lots of responsibility and stress. Completed IDP and started taking the ARE. Then the firm I worked for ran into a bad time, the boss didn't take a salary for months, we had several rounds of lay offs. I took a 20% pay cut. Then a 40% pay cut. Then I was laid off (to my relief).
Unemployed for about 14 months when everyone else was laid off too (2009) and no one was hiring, benefits rec'd were just under $1600 a month if I recall correctly.
Then I joined my husband's career, we started a company, the first year I only made about $15,000, $30,000 the second, $60,000 the third and $70,000 for the 4th and most recent year. Benefits are all different, I pay my own insurance, soc. sec. and office space for instance but I work less hours too and have staff. I do freelance design on the side for friends and family, but have never cleared $2,000/yearly.
Accesskb,
Tell little brother to save every dime he can while he can. IBM, which used to have a good reputation, is having a bloodbath of layoffs and firings. They are trying to reduce expenses to keep the earnings up even though revenue has been dropping for years. Also at IBM unless you are a special unicorn you don't get an annual raise which means, because of inflation, you are really getting a 4 to 5 percent pay cut each year.
Zoning is whats caused the rise in the "finance, insurance, real estate, rental, and leasing", an industry whose total employment in the economy has hardly budged, but percent share of the economy has grown dramatically. Home loans and rents are a huge part, and zoning props that up to OUR expense.
Structural engineers deserve more money. Generally speaking, coming out of school they understand what it takes for a building not to fall down. Arch's, generally speaking, have no idea. Again another generality, but archies, out of school, provide little value in the overall design-construction process- Thus the low pay. The biggest area where you can contribute - production drafting - is a global commodity. Simple economics. Is it really worth 6 plus years and $120k for that?
2004 - graduated M Arch
2004 - arch draftsman - $36k - bennies?
2004 - construction management - $63k solid bennies
2005 - CM $72k solid bennies
2006 - CM - $49k plus $7k relocation package solid bennies
2007 - CM $55k solid bennies
2008 - CM $65k solid bennies
2009 - CM $68k solid bennies
2010 - CM salary frozen - $68k solid bennies
2011 - CM salary frozen - $68k solid bennies- laid off in october with severance
2012 - Manufacturing/Subcontracting - $68k ok bennies
2013 - M/S - $68k ok bennies
2014 - Facilities Mangement - $73k - great bennies plus 4 day work week.
Started my own residential db firm in 2011. Cleared $5k that first year and growing to $15k last year. I ditched traditional architecture practice in 2004 and don't intend to ever come back. I had another career change in 2011 and 2014.
Volunteer: Tell little brother to save every dime he can while he can. IBM, which used to have a good reputation, is having a bloodbath of layoffs and firings. They are trying to reduce expenses to keep the earnings up even though revenue has been dropping for years. Also at IBM unless you are a special unicorn you don't get an annual raise which means, because of inflation, you are really getting a 4 to 5 percent pay cut each year.
Volunteer, he is a software developer, where the demand and money is. IT and hardware is just as bad as other professions ;) I heard firms won't even look at your resume if you mention computer science. Remember the key word 'software developer' if you ever decide to switch professions. xD
"Structural engineers deserve more money. Generally speaking, coming out of school they understand what it takes for a building not to fall down"
Disagree with both statements. I wouldn't trust an eng grad with the calcs of my building any more than I would an arch grad with designing it. Str eng do pick up an expertise more quickly though than arch; after say 5 years working an engineer really does know how to put together a building while the arch counterpart in a disconcerting amount of cases doesn't, still. This has everything to do with how the young get introduced into practice and how the first years of experience are gained. Young engineers do engineering while young architects do door schedules, cardboard models and competition renderings. The only reason why engineers make more money is that they know how long a task takes and how to do the work commensurate with the fee (which for a given project is orders of magnitude lower than the arch fee, btw). In this way yes, they "deserve" more money cause they are better at using their time and sizing the effort to the fee.
Volunteer: Tell little brother to save every dime... "
I find it so amusing how our pathetic pay is defended as if we're in some sort of cult; it's like we're Mormons or something - in defense of our invented faith... and then the vitriol over other professions that may have higher earnings or more job security...Volunteer: are you too young to remember 2008-2009? 40% of my class was laid off... architects were the most unemployed/laid-off professionals in the nation during the recession (18-20% ?). And you're defending our shit when IBM; a great company is cutting a few jobs like all companies do at times.... i'm sure it's not as cyclical and poor paying as architecture. Here's my last firm's employee number per year.
14...24...32...20...08...15...24...12
Over the last year; my past firm has laid off 50% - this happens very often in architecture - a service industry. I would quit if my office phone rang this instant to work for a world renown, business guided, well paying, highly regarded, smart company like IBM.
Plus, this "little brother" has skills that are marketable, because computer science is difficult to achieve. My 2.8 gpa in engineering school translated to an 3.9 gpa in architecture school when I made the degree change (same school)... I went from advanced calculus and physics to advanced basswood modeling building and computer aided drawing. "Work" in arch school meant staying as late as you could to mentally jerk-off over your subjectively designed live-work artist mixed-use theoretical project. In Engineering college 1st year we worked directly with real companies to produce real tools / real products... imagine such a thing. ... Now I'm the one sounding like a negative asshole lol. My apologies; at least studying in Rome for arch changed my world view and was my most rewarding moment in college.
So designers make on average 52,000 and Architects (excluding Landscape and Naval) make on average 79,000...
I think that a lot of people on this forum mistaken draftsmen with architects, or Project Managers with Architects.... Architects are licensed professionals!
My salary was stagnant early on in my career. I could'nt seem to break the 35k mark for years, even after getting my licence. I graduated with my undergrad in 89 and went straight to grad school. That was a great decision at the time because there was a bad recession in the early 90s.
Many architects were unemployed everywhere. I finished grad school in 92 and managed to work for a firm in my home town of Philly for a few months only because they were busy with one big job and I had established a relationship with them years earlier.
Fortunately, I always managed to stay employed and progressed in my career, although it was not always easy. I moved to different places for work, Philadelphia, New York, Princeton New Jersey, Baltimore and DC. The best thing that happened was my decision to move to DC in 98. Since then I have seen regular pay increases with job changes. I would stay between 2 and 5 years at each firm and moved on for promotion oppurtunities. I think that I also benefitted from the 90s recession because so many people left the profession and there was a shortage of architects knowledgable about design and construction. I think that the current generation of architects that have survived the Great Recession will also benefit In a similar way, eventually, because of the paucity of Knowledgeable architects that will be still standing after the career carnage an culling if the architecture field.
DC has been a very busy place growth/ architecture/construction wise. I was busy and doing well in my career up until 2009. At the time I was an Associate in a design firm and the world collapsed and stopped. I was unemployed for a year (with mortgage payments student loans and the myriad of other bills). After a year of unemployment, I was blessed with a miracle from god -literally. I got an Architect position with the federal government in 2010. I have been there since and there is no looking back in considering leaving my current position for a private sector job ever again. I am almost 50 years old and would like to retire one day. In the Federal government I have seen several people retire voluntarily from federal positions but have never seen anyone retire voluntarily in Architecture firms in the private sector. As an architect with the federal government, I do mostly administrative work and very little design/construction work. I sorely miss the creative deign side of the profession but I want to eventually retire more than I want to design in a design firm.
In order to exercise the creative side of my brain, I do occasional competitions and small renovation projects on my free time but I realize that this isn't my bread and butter. I cannot be unemployed ever again so, a federal architect I will be until I retirement.
5years out- 35k 10 years out -55k 15 years out - 80k
I might just give in and go back to school to do computer programming / engineering... Everything regarding architecture salaries just seems so depressing sometimes.
sorry grnessandsam; but it is lol but one has to roll with the punches... if you are ok with lower than expected pay; than that's ok ... the profession is notorious for poor wages and poor firm mgmt and poor finance skills so it becomes very frustrating for perhaps young professional aged 28-35 (soon to buy homes, get married, kids) needing better pay. Also, considering I live in a major metro, you have to roll with the awareness that you make less than nearly most other professional working downtown. I cannot afford to live downtown with these finance, econ, biz and marketing majors; well i can; but that's thanks to my bread-winner g/f.
15 years to make 80k with a "professional degree" is very poor (mid-career avg). And remember; that's a national average; so being in NYC or Chicago (where these numbers are coming from) that is very low pay. I'm licensed and make 55k in a 3M person city. My friend makes 55k working in a college town 55k population... pay in architecture is not good in cities; his home cost $110k; I rent a condo worth $250k two miles from the city.
my last point regarding the provided link to professions and pay.
The area under the curve is what matters. Engineers may top off avg at 90k, but they started at 70k.... architects may avg top at $80k, but they start at 38k. You have to see the progression of pay and lifetime earnings in order to compare. Once you're a 55 year old architect you may earn 120k, but you made shit till then... We may earn $500k less in lifetime earnings as architects compared to engineers. That's what needs to be measured.
Pale shelter and acesskb,
I am just suggesting that the little brother in the software development field making 200K might want to save a lot of money now because being the flavor of the month is well and good - for this month. I agree with you completely about the train wreck in the architecture profession. Lawyers have cratered even worse.
Maybe I have high expectations because of the area and my background. My dad made 40k for the first 10 years of his career during a downturn, then went on to make over 200k. He thinks he understands tough job markets because of his background, but I don't think he can get a grip on what its like to be an architect. Geophysicists now start out at around 100k. In Oklahoma, not NYC.
If software developers feel a downturn, they will still probably be better off than architects.
I'm not a very money-focused person, but perhaps I never realized what it feels like to be financially uncomfortable.
I am going back for a Civil or Structural Engineering degree. I am well and truly fed up with the professional practices in Architecture. Talking to our consulting engineers, they say that the most difficult thing to find in a young engineer is the ability to interact with clients, explain concepts, and COMMUNICATE. I can do these things quite well - he thinks I will have an easy time getting a job when I graduate. (again)
The last architecture interview I went to, they couldn't say enough good about me, my portfolio, our conversation, but then they scoffed at my salary request and offered me $32-36k/ year. The fact they wouldn't even commit to a firm number is a solid indicator of the kinds of games most architects play.
This month, my fiance (also an aspiring architect) nails down an interview, takes a couple hours off work to go, shows up and surprise! This is just an informal meeting since we don't really have a position. Can you imagine any other industry treating prospective employees like this? They would lose all credibility.
grneggandsam, I live and work in Eastern Ontario, Canada.
There is this odd notion that everything is terrible but that's just because we tend to only hear a very vocal minority of disgruntled, or under-qualified "designers" ranting about their "misfortunes". My situation is not unique and I have many colleagues and past classmates who are at the same spot as I am... but I do know of a few who were less ambitious that settled for under $20/hour grunt jobs who fall right in line with those screaming that it's a horrible business. Just like with unpaid internship, you're worth what you accept as payment.
totally agree with non sequitur. i'm an architect but i work in engineering and in my office there is genuine concern each year over not being able to attract the best grads looking for jobs. whether this is due to not paying well enough, not offering enough growth opportunities, benefits etc is besides the point. the point is that the candidates and their predecessors have known how to have demands and create leverage to a point where the employer gets nervous over not being able to get the people they want to work for them. quite a far leap from architectural reality.
I posted this when the new archinect salary poll was released. I haven't reexamined the info since then, but I would guess the results would be similar. You want to be an employee there is going to be a cap on your level of pay and in this industry it is most likely going to be under six figures. Not saying it is good or bad, but it is what it is.
Of the 1000 entries so far, only 8% of them are six figures or higher. Of that 8% a significant handful appear to be entered in foreign currency that may or may not be more valuable than the dollar. Additionally the majority of six figure salaries that are based in the US are in East/West coast locales that have a significant cost of living factor, diminishing the purchasing power of the salary. It's an early sample, but I can see a ceiling on architectural salaries in the 80-120k range as an employee.
Let me guess digger, you are one of those fucking assholes who treat your employees like total shit and give them complete shit pay but then expect them to be thankful someone as almighty as yourself for giving them salaries in the first place. Thanks for being a part of the problem.
Aaaaaannnd as usual digger pisses all over himself and then flees.
By the way this was mine starting from grad school:
2006: 44k with average (at best benefits)
2008: Jumped ship to an EA firm (57k with solid benefits). Mostly did military work...
2011: 61k with same EA firm but was laid off after five excruciating years of watching every one of my colleagues get laid off.
2011: Was hired at a new firm imediately after being laid off. Back down to 54k with decent enough benefits and ok bonuses...
2014: Same firm, now at roughly 60k with benefits and bonuses.
Most of my friends in other professions that normally only require and undergrad or (in some cases no degree at all) have mostly cleared 100k by now. THAT is fucking embarrassing and a disgrace to such a respectable profession. No other profession right now would be so bold as to constantly cut salaries even though costs of living are going up and up.
I still have college debt from a public school, I am married, rent my home, live in an expensive city - in the world I live in things only get expensive, not cheaper.
I'm telling you guys - housing is the one need whose supply can be controlled, with zoning. The best way to extort money from people by using money is with housing. So, in this game, architects, producers, and builders are losing, while the manipulators, bureaucrats , and maintenance personnel are winning. Everyone becomes a "businessman" and they have the votes to keep it this way. Its backward, but it is how it is - at least in big cities.
I'm from a fairly wealthy(ish) family and arguably have much to benefit from the system in place. Yet, I still see its flaws and would rather have a system which valued fairness. There's no honor in inheritance.
you didn't answer my question -- if you're such hot stuff, why don't you start your own firm and show the rest of us how easy it is to rake in top fees and pay salaries commensurate with the other professions.
oh right, med pisses all over everybody else and then flees.
-The usual complaints about income seen on this forum everyday.
Spring 2012: Graduation with BFA in Architecture; Contract gig at a small firm for $15/hour, no benefits
Summer 2012: Laid off from small firm, immediately hired at a mid-sized firm after recommendation; Contract gig for $18/hour, no benefits
Summer 2013: Laid off from mid-sized, took a contractor job for $15/hour w/ overtime.
Autumn 2013: Quit contractor job for an opening at a large firm (current employer); $42k a year with good benefits and potential room for growth. Firm is paying for AIA and CSI memberships as well as my ARE.
I live in a mid-major city, rent a home, married, with a newborn.
these are real numbers, all include benefits (numbers rounded since exact amounts have faded with my memory) - I was lucky during most of my career (until 2 years ago) to ride a few waves of salary growth and a hot regional growth pattern that aligned with my professional growth
college intern $5/hour during 4th year of BArch
first year $7/hour + overtime = $16K no bonus
4th year switched to salary,licensed, no paid overtime $35K $2K bonus
7th year switched jobs $47K
10th year raise to $65K $5K bonus
14th year raise to $85K $10K bonus
18th year raise to $105K $20K bonus (included profit sharing)
21st year raise to $120K $30K bonus (included profit sharing)
There are a few things that really bug the crap out of me on archinect...one being, the all mighty, "if you don't like it, why don't you start your own firm" statement.
We all get it, operating a firm is difficult and stressful.
Even the established firms had a hard time making it through the shit, so it is not the ideal time to just up and start a fucking firm. Architecture is an old mans game for sure, but that gives them no right to treat the up and comers like shit.
I want to say that I just decided to change my major to civil engineering after my freshman year.
I'm not sure if it's better, but I think it's gonna be a "stable" profession. Plus I don't reject math or physics. So....Bless me.
Salary over Time
I'm curious how people's salaries have changed over time. I'm not looking as much for elaborate explanations as I am for solid numbers at mile stones in your career (got a promotion salary went up, was laid off had to take a lower salary at a new job). I'm especially curious to see how the salary of people who have been in the profession for 10+ years so there is data going back pre-2007/8 recession.
To make this simple what were you making at:
1 year (Year you had that salary ex. 1995)?
5 years?
10 years?
15 years etc. ?
I started out of school with a M-Arch @ 250k in 2004, which I thought was very low at the time, I got a raise in 2006, to 350k and was given access to the company helicopter, but both the raise and the helicopter were revoked in 2008 at the start of the recession. Since things are back on the up and up, my company bought me a vacation house, a condo near work, and a small private island in the Caribbean as a Christmas bonus. I'm still not satisfied financially, but I am hopeful for 2014!
salaries.archinect.com
You can figure it out from there.
oh, and 40k a year for 6 months, then 47k a year for 6 month, then 42k a year for a year, now 45k a year about to start.
Pay is generally laughable and shitty all the way through.
I am a practicing architect and would have been happy to do something else besides for architecture in favor of better pay now that I have seen just how big of a joke the profession is and how all of our leaders simply destroyed the profession and sold out on it. Basically everyone gets paid better than us.
Umm .. med ... since you're such hot shit and since everybody else in the profession is such a total fu*kup, why don't you get your ass off your current employer's payroll, start your own firm, and just show the rest of us how it should be done. Obviously you're the only one around who's got it all figured out. For you, it should be totally easy.
Can't wait to see what outrageously high salaries you pay your employees!
digger, I wish I could start my own firm. Pretty tough to do without a license. Catch 22.
I'm more concerned with wages not increasing over time - maybe there's a handy AIA document out there that shows how wages have changed over the last 30 years but I haven't come across something like that. The point of my initial question seems to be lost. If you were making 30k in 1995 your money was worth more in 1995 than it is now - everything cost less in 1995 than it does today - hence my question about salary over time. The archinect salary poll only captures salaries for the last couple years.
I'm pretty sure you can find the info you're looking for here.
http://www.bls.gov/home.htm
If you figure out how to query the right info... let me know. It's not very user friendly to say the least... or maybe i'm just dumb :p
digger, are you one of those clever conservatives who think people trying to earn an honest living by working should be punished?
no - not at all. I just tire of med's constant bellyaching about how his evil employers will never pay him the vast sums that he's certain (in his own mind) that he's worth.
digger: "vast sums" lol.. i think many of us just want to earn more than the 22 year old general biz degree who just graduated; starting pay $52k.... what do i make now? $55k with 6+ years of post-school work experience lol. The value of our 5-6 years of education, licensure and often 40+ hour work weeks, zero profit sharing, no 401k match, small bonuses, etc etc equates to a very low wage per education attainment.
But if you're like me: you most likely had no finance or business class in your 5-7 years of education at art-itecture school. So, you don't understand how markets work. My boss' don't understand... how could he? They all go on hiring frenzies the minute we get new work. Architects learn on the fly when it comes to finance; and they are very bad at it.
*original poster: you have to realize that any discussion on MONEY is TABOO in this fcking profession. TABOO.. so be careful for the diggers out there....lol
Brief: I went and worked for the national firm-of the year a few years ago; after the recession. I had 3 years experience. My buddy - perhaps the most talented in my class - recommended me. We worked on a Steven Holl project. I was offered $12/hour. I have a 5 year arch degree with a top portfolio and honors GPA. $12/hour. Top ranked undergrad school. My friend and I would sometimes hit up the gas station for snacks lol ; well; we joked about the job ads there "Gas Station Manager: starting $45k with 3 years sales experience"... his pay was decreased after recession to like $36k probably. How pathetic, the REALITY huh? Well; he left a year later to work as a corporate campus facilities manager and started making what our 40 year old PM was probably making. This is what happens when you have a child and can't make it on architect shit pay. My other top talented friend has left the profession because he could only make decent money at SOM in Chicago by working 70 hour weeks. I'm leaving the profession this summer for good. I missed all the queues over the past 3 years to leave... and now I'm growing gray hair at 30 because it will be 15 years until I earn what my g/f makes in sales. It would take me 4x my pay to just afford the average home prices in my metro.... it's interesting that all my colleagues live in the suburbs (cheap and shitty there) ... while I live in the best neighborhood. Thanks girlfriend!!
So for the original poster: i was first to get licensed in my class... got me a nice ass $1k bonus baby at age 27 or so? ..Sure was "worth" it.
2008 - fresh grad - $45k (included bonus)
2009 - 45k (laid off 6 months) - firm split in half.
2010 - $25k = $12/ hour at 'top firm' - fck yea baby!
2010 - $40k - moved back to my city
2011 - $44k
2012 - $48k
2013 - $55k includes bonus (firm split in half aka is going under... got a new job)
2013-current - $53k on pace to match last year or a bit more lol
*notice 2 times having to leave offices due to firms sinking. This is why we've seen no pay increase since 2008 (reference the newest Design Intelligence Compensation Report to verify - it's true)
*If you ask your boss why the pay is so shitty...well; they admit it! lol. Isn't that amusing? But they'll argue, well what is your 'market value' at your level and experience?... This is their counter-argument that is really saying "i can go out and get someone to work for shit and replace you tomorrow so take your pennies and be happy".... well; because architects don't understand markets; and supply and demand or money/bonus incentives... it's actually a grave insight into our current professional status. We have too many architects, who don't know shit out of school, have a low barrier to entry (easy degree to achieve - yes, it is) and have ever lowering fees in competition among other firms fighting for fees. What gets lowered in a market of over supply and fighting business? Labor cost is reduced in order to make up low fees... and there is NO incentive to make money in an arch firm (unless you're one of the few who can bring in big projects). And what is the arch firms 'standard of growth' ? It's how 'big' a firm is... "number of employees"; NOT "revenue per employee". What's interesting is my firm is one of the biggest and highest revenue making firms in my city ... but if you do the numbers... we have in fact the LOWEST revenue per employee. I see new hires every other week ... NO INCENTIVE to get work done quicker or more efficently for current employees. Why? Money is a sore subject... we HIRE when we have work... then we lay off if shit hits the fan. It's a cycle of using low paying labor in order to make the numbers work... and hence the reason the current sad, disgruntled state of young architects.
Anyways long fcnk post here my apologies; but MY POINT 'digger' , you smart ass, is that the reason behind this profession degrading away and lowing talent is because we ARE PAID SO POORLY !!! yes; our profession is failing because we lost any sense of knowing how to make money and reward those who worked to make money... over hiring and paying low wages. The talented leave and the dumbies remain unchanged and unknowing of good business practices to change the course. Of course, it'd be nice if they taught us something of value in college...
You know its tough when your younger brother who studied computer engineering gets hired before he graduates with a 80K/year pay, switches between 3 firms in 5 years because his options are plentiful and has pushed up his pay to 200K/year, while here I sit jobless, with a huge university debt still shadowing me.
But I must remind myself, I'm in it for job satisfaction and not the pay ><
As the rubes keep flocking here in droves to ask, "Which school ...?"
I'd be willing to bet if zoning laws allowed us to build - and we considered doing design-build work - we could all be making salaries comparable to the computer engineer. Housing is the biggest expense most people make, and we could supply that market - the market with the most money. Unfortunately, the gov has found ways to tax our industry much MUCH deeper and more subtlety than computer engineering.
Also, we would need to provide more opportunity for entrepreneurship. There is no license acting as a barrier to entry into computer engineering - so the salaries can be distributed according to skill and knowledge instead of company ownership.
pale shelter - this is one of the best posts i've read on archinect ever. kudos. happy to hear you're working after more than your share of mishaps.
digger - pray tell how someone pointing out that the profession is plagued by salary dumping in your brain transforms into someone thinking they're "hot shit"? it has nothing to do with some wishy washy and subjective notion of what people "think they're worth". any statistics if you know how to read them will tell you that this profession has an untenable report between cost of education and total wages during a typical career. not even counting all the overtime, hire and fire and all the other bs offices deal in to keep afloat.
other highly educated professional categories where licensing is required have figured out how to either make themselves indispensable and without flooding the profession with recent grads, or how to bill all the hours worked. architects haven't. where i live and work the architect's perhaps closest counterparts, the structural engineers, get paid 40% more as grads (0 work experience) than the architectural grads (i know this because i've been involved in hiring both kinds within the same graduation year). i can assure you that in terms of the usefulness to real projects in a real office, both types of grads are of equally little use and in need of the same amount of hand holding and oversight.
architects - employers and employees - bear the sole responsibility for their salary situation.
19 year old student intern $13/hour
First professional (intern) job post graduating BArch $26,000/year with good benefits.
$3,000 a year raise for each of first 3 years, so $35,000 after 3 years when I left.
New job in a new city, started at $45,000 salaried. $48,000 after a year there. Got minuscule bonuses too, ranges from $7 to $250.
at 5.5 years of experience $56,000 salaried with lots of responsibility and stress. Completed IDP and started taking the ARE. Then the firm I worked for ran into a bad time, the boss didn't take a salary for months, we had several rounds of lay offs. I took a 20% pay cut. Then a 40% pay cut. Then I was laid off (to my relief).
Unemployed for about 14 months when everyone else was laid off too (2009) and no one was hiring, benefits rec'd were just under $1600 a month if I recall correctly.
Then I joined my husband's career, we started a company, the first year I only made about $15,000, $30,000 the second, $60,000 the third and $70,000 for the 4th and most recent year. Benefits are all different, I pay my own insurance, soc. sec. and office space for instance but I work less hours too and have staff. I do freelance design on the side for friends and family, but have never cleared $2,000/yearly.
Accesskb, Tell little brother to save every dime he can while he can. IBM, which used to have a good reputation, is having a bloodbath of layoffs and firings. They are trying to reduce expenses to keep the earnings up even though revenue has been dropping for years. Also at IBM unless you are a special unicorn you don't get an annual raise which means, because of inflation, you are really getting a 4 to 5 percent pay cut each year.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sectors_of_US_Economy_as_Percent_of_GDP_1947-2009.png
Zoning is whats caused the rise in the "finance, insurance, real estate, rental, and leasing", an industry whose total employment in the economy has hardly budged, but percent share of the economy has grown dramatically. Home loans and rents are a huge part, and zoning props that up to OUR expense.
Structural engineers deserve more money. Generally speaking, coming out of school they understand what it takes for a building not to fall down. Arch's, generally speaking, have no idea. Again another generality, but archies, out of school, provide little value in the overall design-construction process- Thus the low pay. The biggest area where you can contribute - production drafting - is a global commodity. Simple economics. Is it really worth 6 plus years and $120k for that?
2004 - graduated M Arch
2004 - arch draftsman - $36k - bennies?
2004 - construction management - $63k solid bennies
2005 - CM $72k solid bennies
2006 - CM - $49k plus $7k relocation package solid bennies
2007 - CM $55k solid bennies
2008 - CM $65k solid bennies
2009 - CM $68k solid bennies
2010 - CM salary frozen - $68k solid bennies
2011 - CM salary frozen - $68k solid bennies- laid off in october with severance
2012 - Manufacturing/Subcontracting - $68k ok bennies
2013 - M/S - $68k ok bennies
2014 - Facilities Mangement - $73k - great bennies plus 4 day work week.
Started my own residential db firm in 2011. Cleared $5k that first year and growing to $15k last year. I ditched traditional architecture practice in 2004 and don't intend to ever come back. I had another career change in 2011 and 2014.
rough estimate of dates....
1st arch job - 2004 - $14 per hour building a physical model over summer break
2nd - 2005 - $10 per hour arch drafting/ redlines, $3 raise after completing B.S. arch.
3rd. - 2006 - returned to first firm 47000 - good benefits - regular raises got up to 53k before layoff in 2010
compete m.arch. during layoff
4th - 2011-2012 - contract work for a couple firms - $35 hourly - no benefits
5th - 2013 - present - new firm, 53k + straight time for more than 40 hrs a week and bonuses = about 60 k total
have completed idp and 3/7 exams
Volunteer: Tell little brother to save every dime he can while he can. IBM, which used to have a good reputation, is having a bloodbath of layoffs and firings. They are trying to reduce expenses to keep the earnings up even though revenue has been dropping for years. Also at IBM unless you are a special unicorn you don't get an annual raise which means, because of inflation, you are really getting a 4 to 5 percent pay cut each year.
Volunteer, he is a software developer, where the demand and money is. IT and hardware is just as bad as other professions ;) I heard firms won't even look at your resume if you mention computer science. Remember the key word 'software developer' if you ever decide to switch professions. xD
Disagree with both statements. I wouldn't trust an eng grad with the calcs of my building any more than I would an arch grad with designing it. Str eng do pick up an expertise more quickly though than arch; after say 5 years working an engineer really does know how to put together a building while the arch counterpart in a disconcerting amount of cases doesn't, still. This has everything to do with how the young get introduced into practice and how the first years of experience are gained. Young engineers do engineering while young architects do door schedules, cardboard models and competition renderings. The only reason why engineers make more money is that they know how long a task takes and how to do the work commensurate with the fee (which for a given project is orders of magnitude lower than the arch fee, btw). In this way yes, they "deserve" more money cause they are better at using their time and sizing the effort to the fee.
Volunteer: Tell little brother to save every dime... "
I find it so amusing how our pathetic pay is defended as if we're in some sort of cult; it's like we're Mormons or something - in defense of our invented faith... and then the vitriol over other professions that may have higher earnings or more job security...Volunteer: are you too young to remember 2008-2009? 40% of my class was laid off... architects were the most unemployed/laid-off professionals in the nation during the recession (18-20% ?). And you're defending our shit when IBM; a great company is cutting a few jobs like all companies do at times.... i'm sure it's not as cyclical and poor paying as architecture. Here's my last firm's employee number per year.
14...24...32...20...08...15...24...12
Over the last year; my past firm has laid off 50% - this happens very often in architecture - a service industry. I would quit if my office phone rang this instant to work for a world renown, business guided, well paying, highly regarded, smart company like IBM.
Plus, this "little brother" has skills that are marketable, because computer science is difficult to achieve. My 2.8 gpa in engineering school translated to an 3.9 gpa in architecture school when I made the degree change (same school)... I went from advanced calculus and physics to advanced basswood modeling building and computer aided drawing. "Work" in arch school meant staying as late as you could to mentally jerk-off over your subjectively designed live-work artist mixed-use theoretical project. In Engineering college 1st year we worked directly with real companies to produce real tools / real products... imagine such a thing. ... Now I'm the one sounding like a negative asshole lol. My apologies; at least studying in Rome for arch changed my world view and was my most rewarding moment in college.
So designers make on average 52,000 and Architects (excluding Landscape and Naval) make on average 79,000...
I think that a lot of people on this forum mistaken draftsmen with architects, or Project Managers with Architects.... Architects are licensed professionals!
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#17-0000
My salary was stagnant early on in my career. I could'nt seem to break the 35k mark for years, even after getting my licence. I graduated with my undergrad in 89 and went straight to grad school. That was a great decision at the time because there was a bad recession in the early 90s.
Many architects were unemployed everywhere.
I finished grad school in 92 and managed to work for a firm in my home town of Philly for a few months only because they were busy with one big job and I had established a relationship with them years earlier.
Fortunately, I always managed to stay employed and progressed in my career, although it was not always easy. I moved to different places for work, Philadelphia, New York, Princeton New Jersey, Baltimore and DC. The best thing that happened was my decision to move to DC in 98. Since then I have seen regular pay increases with job changes. I would stay between 2 and 5 years at each firm and moved on for promotion oppurtunities. I think that I also benefitted from the 90s recession because so many people left the profession and there was a shortage of architects knowledgable about design and construction. I think that the current generation of architects that have survived the Great Recession will also benefit In a similar way, eventually, because of the paucity of Knowledgeable architects that will be still standing after the career carnage an culling if the architecture field.
DC has been a very busy place growth/ architecture/construction wise. I was busy and doing well in my career up until 2009. At the time I was an Associate in a design firm and the world collapsed and stopped. I was unemployed for a year (with mortgage payments student loans and the myriad of other bills). After a year of unemployment, I was blessed with a miracle from god -literally. I got an Architect position with the federal government in 2010. I have been there since and there is no looking back in considering leaving my current position for a private sector job ever again. I am almost 50 years old and would like to retire one day. In the Federal government I have seen several people retire voluntarily from federal positions but have never seen anyone retire voluntarily in Architecture firms in the private sector. As an architect with the federal government, I do mostly administrative work and very little design/construction work. I sorely miss the creative deign side of the profession but I want to eventually retire more than I want to design in a design firm.
In order to exercise the creative side of my brain, I do occasional competitions and small renovation projects on my free time but I realize that this isn't my bread and butter. I cannot be unemployed ever again so, a federal architect I will be until I retirement.
5years out- 35k
10 years out -55k
15 years out - 80k
I might just give in and go back to school to do computer programming / engineering... Everything regarding architecture salaries just seems so depressing sometimes.
sorry grnessandsam; but it is lol but one has to roll with the punches... if you are ok with lower than expected pay; than that's ok ... the profession is notorious for poor wages and poor firm mgmt and poor finance skills so it becomes very frustrating for perhaps young professional aged 28-35 (soon to buy homes, get married, kids) needing better pay. Also, considering I live in a major metro, you have to roll with the awareness that you make less than nearly most other professional working downtown. I cannot afford to live downtown with these finance, econ, biz and marketing majors; well i can; but that's thanks to my bread-winner g/f.
15 years to make 80k with a "professional degree" is very poor (mid-career avg). And remember; that's a national average; so being in NYC or Chicago (where these numbers are coming from) that is very low pay. I'm licensed and make 55k in a 3M person city. My friend makes 55k working in a college town 55k population... pay in architecture is not good in cities; his home cost $110k; I rent a condo worth $250k two miles from the city.
my last point regarding the provided link to professions and pay.
The area under the curve is what matters. Engineers may top off avg at 90k, but they started at 70k.... architects may avg top at $80k, but they start at 38k. You have to see the progression of pay and lifetime earnings in order to compare. Once you're a 55 year old architect you may earn 120k, but you made shit till then... We may earn $500k less in lifetime earnings as architects compared to engineers. That's what needs to be measured.
Pale shelter and acesskb, I am just suggesting that the little brother in the software development field making 200K might want to save a lot of money now because being the flavor of the month is well and good - for this month. I agree with you completely about the train wreck in the architecture profession. Lawyers have cratered even worse.
Maybe I have high expectations because of the area and my background. My dad made 40k for the first 10 years of his career during a downturn, then went on to make over 200k. He thinks he understands tough job markets because of his background, but I don't think he can get a grip on what its like to be an architect. Geophysicists now start out at around 100k. In Oklahoma, not NYC.
If software developers feel a downturn, they will still probably be better off than architects.
I'm not a very money-focused person, but perhaps I never realized what it feels like to be financially uncomfortable.
I am going back for a Civil or Structural Engineering degree. I am well and truly fed up with the professional practices in Architecture. Talking to our consulting engineers, they say that the most difficult thing to find in a young engineer is the ability to interact with clients, explain concepts, and COMMUNICATE. I can do these things quite well - he thinks I will have an easy time getting a job when I graduate. (again)
The last architecture interview I went to, they couldn't say enough good about me, my portfolio, our conversation, but then they scoffed at my salary request and offered me $32-36k/ year. The fact they wouldn't even commit to a firm number is a solid indicator of the kinds of games most architects play.
This month, my fiance (also an aspiring architect) nails down an interview, takes a couple hours off work to go, shows up and surprise! This is just an informal meeting since we don't really have a position. Can you imagine any other industry treating prospective employees like this? They would lose all credibility.
to the Op's point
Undergrad: $10/hour under the table one man shop "office"
2 weeks post master degree: $40K @ 35hr weeks + OT
less than 5 years later c/w license: a tad bit under $64K/year
It's not as terrible as some make it out to be. I'm planning on breaching $70K/year by the fall.
If you don't mind me asking - where do you live NonSequitur?
From what I've seen, the only way to make a good salary is to be an owner, an owner's henchman, or upper management at a huge corporate firm.
grneggandsam, I live and work in Eastern Ontario, Canada.
There is this odd notion that everything is terrible but that's just because we tend to only hear a very vocal minority of disgruntled, or under-qualified "designers" ranting about their "misfortunes". My situation is not unique and I have many colleagues and past classmates who are at the same spot as I am... but I do know of a few who were less ambitious that settled for under $20/hour grunt jobs who fall right in line with those screaming that it's a horrible business. Just like with unpaid internship, you're worth what you accept as payment.
totally agree with non sequitur. i'm an architect but i work in engineering and in my office there is genuine concern each year over not being able to attract the best grads looking for jobs. whether this is due to not paying well enough, not offering enough growth opportunities, benefits etc is besides the point. the point is that the candidates and their predecessors have known how to have demands and create leverage to a point where the employer gets nervous over not being able to get the people they want to work for them. quite a far leap from architectural reality.
I posted this when the new archinect salary poll was released. I haven't reexamined the info since then, but I would guess the results would be similar. You want to be an employee there is going to be a cap on your level of pay and in this industry it is most likely going to be under six figures. Not saying it is good or bad, but it is what it is.
Of the 1000 entries so far, only 8% of them are six figures or higher. Of that 8% a significant handful appear to be entered in foreign currency that may or may not be more valuable than the dollar. Additionally the majority of six figure salaries that are based in the US are in East/West coast locales that have a significant cost of living factor, diminishing the purchasing power of the salary. It's an early sample, but I can see a ceiling on architectural salaries in the 80-120k range as an employee.
"Structural engineers deserve more money. "
Deserve was the wrong word. "Deserve's got nothing to do with it." - Wiliam Munny
LOL
Let me guess digger, you are one of those fucking assholes who treat your employees like total shit and give them complete shit pay but then expect them to be thankful someone as almighty as yourself for giving them salaries in the first place. Thanks for being a part of the problem.
Aaaaaannnd as usual digger pisses all over himself and then flees.
By the way this was mine starting from grad school:
2006: 44k with average (at best benefits)
2008: Jumped ship to an EA firm (57k with solid benefits). Mostly did military work...
2011: 61k with same EA firm but was laid off after five excruciating years of watching every one of my colleagues get laid off.
2011: Was hired at a new firm imediately after being laid off. Back down to 54k with decent enough benefits and ok bonuses...
2014: Same firm, now at roughly 60k with benefits and bonuses.
Most of my friends in other professions that normally only require and undergrad or (in some cases no degree at all) have mostly cleared 100k by now. THAT is fucking embarrassing and a disgrace to such a respectable profession. No other profession right now would be so bold as to constantly cut salaries even though costs of living are going up and up.
I still have college debt from a public school, I am married, rent my home, live in an expensive city - in the world I live in things only get expensive, not cheaper.
I'm telling you guys - housing is the one need whose supply can be controlled, with zoning. The best way to extort money from people by using money is with housing. So, in this game, architects, producers, and builders are losing, while the manipulators, bureaucrats , and maintenance personnel are winning. Everyone becomes a "businessman" and they have the votes to keep it this way. Its backward, but it is how it is - at least in big cities.
I'm from a fairly wealthy(ish) family and arguably have much to benefit from the system in place. Yet, I still see its flaws and would rather have a system which valued fairness. There's no honor in inheritance.
sorry, med -- as usual, you're wrong.
you didn't answer my question -- if you're such hot stuff, why don't you start your own firm and show the rest of us how easy it is to rake in top fees and pay salaries commensurate with the other professions.
oh right, med pisses all over everybody else and then flees.
^ Unlike digger, who just pisses on everyone. Quotes from digger's history:
oh right, med pisses all over everybody else and then flees.
give it a rest onyx_one -- you're becoming a bore.
It's ok I R - we hate you too, you pompous ass.
We don't see a lot of 'truth' in your posts -- only self-important agitation.
gwharton - you're a condescending a-hole.
chigurh: how do we know you're not a shitty employee?
Have you had your head in the frigging sand for the past 4 years ?
ignore the bastard .. he's a dick
ITT:
-A pissing contest between digger and med.
-Non Sequitur taking people to school
-Interns complaining about money
-The usual complaints about income seen on this forum everyday.
Spring 2012: Graduation with BFA in Architecture; Contract gig at a small firm for $15/hour, no benefits
Summer 2012: Laid off from small firm, immediately hired at a mid-sized firm after recommendation; Contract gig for $18/hour, no benefits
Summer 2013: Laid off from mid-sized, took a contractor job for $15/hour w/ overtime.
Autumn 2013: Quit contractor job for an opening at a large firm (current employer); $42k a year with good benefits and potential room for growth. Firm is paying for AIA and CSI memberships as well as my ARE.
I live in a mid-major city, rent a home, married, with a newborn.
these are real numbers, all include benefits (numbers rounded since exact amounts have faded with my memory) - I was lucky during most of my career (until 2 years ago) to ride a few waves of salary growth and a hot regional growth pattern that aligned with my professional growth
college intern $5/hour during 4th year of BArch
first year $7/hour + overtime = $16K no bonus
4th year switched to salary,licensed, no paid overtime $35K $2K bonus
7th year switched jobs $47K
10th year raise to $65K $5K bonus
14th year raise to $85K $10K bonus
18th year raise to $105K $20K bonus (included profit sharing)
21st year raise to $120K $30K bonus (included profit sharing)
layoff/economic downturn
22nd year new job $90K $1K bonus
24th year $92K $2K bonus
digger is a dick.
There are a few things that really bug the crap out of me on archinect...one being, the all mighty, "if you don't like it, why don't you start your own firm" statement.
We all get it, operating a firm is difficult and stressful.
Even the established firms had a hard time making it through the shit, so it is not the ideal time to just up and start a fucking firm. Architecture is an old mans game for sure, but that gives them no right to treat the up and comers like shit.
Quotes from Miles the hypocrite:
"It's only the poor who will miss out. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke."
"Wow, you are a BIG girl now!"
"If you're such a hot shit why don't you have your own firm?"
"Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one."
"^ Your remote judgement isn't worth the power used to light the pixels it's printed with."
"Are you as full of shit in real life as you are on this forum?"
"suri, your arrogance is almost as boundless as your ignorance."
I'm not sure if it's better, but I think it's gonna be a "stable" profession. Plus I don't reject math or physics. So....Bless me.
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