I have also heard that "starchitects" also many times pay next to nothing just for the fact that it is such a resume builder for their employees, especially low level ones
Or at least many think it is a resume builder that they will basically work for free just to be under a "name"
that can also skew the salary numbers a bit, especially for those coming right out of school who may think it is important to work for a name architect
You're right, but I think it's fair to say that we didn't see the insane run-up in compensation other technical professions saw beginning in the late 1990s and ending in about 2006 or 2007. All of a sudden, software jocks with MS's in computer science were pulling $150,000 right out of school (they were making precisely what we were making up until 1997 or so).
Yeah, we're paid respectively, but relative to our friends in other fields, we look a little worse for wear. I'm not complaining, but I will say again here what I've been saying at all of these threads - other professions transformed their business models while ours pretty much refused to do so. It's all in the businses model, and if we don't adapt along the lines that've been discussed here on other threads, things will get worse if we don't start seriously thinking about it.
Yes ... well ... perhaps Piggy, in his infinite wisdom, is correct.
About all I can really offer is stable employment, with solid salaries and benefits, to 55 design professionals, who, for the most part, seem to appreciate the supportive working environment and meaningful career opportunities we have provided over the past 30 years. Oh, and four of those folks have become owners in the business.
Piggy does have some points. Most of which is akin to the disapearing middle class. PM's, with 5-15 years of experiance are the ones being laid off right now. Why? Cuz they make more than the cad monkeys who can be trained to do their job. It just happened to a friend of mine. These people are not going to be re-hired over new grads with mad new cad skills any time soon. They need to realize this and move foreward somehow. Most I think will end up in other fields making good money. Others may try their hands at their own firms. But over all you will probably not see these people at the AIA conventions in the future.
OTF: "Piggy does have some points: a room full of blind monkeys banging on manual typewriters can make "some points". You're not really buying into any of the things this nutjob is posting, are you?
I'm not saying everything piggy says has merit. The guy is disgruntled and rightfully so. He is partially to blame for it but so is the system who sold him the goods. Valid points need to be looked at and one of those is that at this point in time people with 5-15 years are not going to be as employable as the newly graduated M.arch. Another way to look at it though is that maybe it was time for these birds to leave the nest and start their own firms. Still, as many here will attest to, firms don't generally teach you how to operate your own firm. You are pretty much cut the frick loose. Same for the mentorship and IDP. It's pretty much, teach yourself. We eat are own is a fair statement. Now what you do with what you have is really up to you though.
I dont know about this though
Having 5-15 years experience counts a lot more than just being cheap
While i admit those guys will probably not be paid what they are worth or close to it, I imagine they are more employable than people with no experience
From what i have seen, basically everyone looking for a job is taking a step back in their actual level
If you have 5-15 years experience, you are back to almost entry level if looking for a job
I would certainly hire someone with experience over someone i have to train and watch, if their starting salaries are basically the same
Of course that just brings up another problem with having to take such a drastic paycut to have a job in the first place
But i see that happening more than just cutting them out in favor of someone who knows basically nothing
on the fence said "Most of which is akin to the disappearing middle class."
Perhaps this is the most concise way to put it.
Its not just architecture you myopic fools. Although the AIA does a really good job of promoting the same moronic HOPE and CHANGE hippie BS to obfuscate reality.
Perhaps I started getting pissed 7 years ago when the Arch firm I was working for (3 baby boomer principles and 10 45 year old somethings) dropped my health insurance as previously setup for my wife and I (couldn't afford for my wife and she was in school) still paid the same to cover just me AND we couldn't afford the $1,000 a month for her asthma medication. Also couldn't get it from another country or cook it up myself thanks to the "free" market.
Thats just one anecdote. Thats what made me begin doing the research into the demographics and funny money creation being leveraged on my generation courtesy of the "generosity" and "magnanimusness" of folks like bluegoose (I'm still assuming you are one of THEM...correct me if I'm wrong). It is nothing personal if you are the exception to the rule (had at least 2.3 kids to replace yourself and the previous generations that sacrificed for your existence and never had an abortion and aren't involved with voting for all the debt being leveraged on us then and only then do I apologize. Unfortunately there are VERY very few exceptions of those born 1949-1964 or whatever).
Tell me you haven't "adjusted" the health insurance of your employees blue goose...
Bastards. Myself and my grandchildren have been setup to be slaves to Chinese Lenders whose debt was purchased by scared dying, procrastinating baby boomers.
No you wouldn't. Because if you were in that position you would understand that the person with 10 years experience that you just hired is going to leave ASAP. You also know what the bottom line is, which is pretty freakin bleak right now. Previous employer is paying out of his own pocket to keep two people in the office at 85% and 24 hrs per week. If you knew, you would too. If you knew, you'd hire fresh grads because you know there is no/little work. While it is true you can pay for a 10 year experiianced architect to deal with the little amount of work coming in, you can pay far less to "mentor" and I use that term loosely here, the new cheap grad, who is grateful to have any job and will stay by your side for 10 years. The underpaid 10 year architect is going ASAP. He knows it and you know it. That is of course, if you knew, but you don't. These architects are going to have to do one of two things, move on with their own firms or move on somewhere else. Period.
Also, lets not pretend this market is going to spring back real quick. It is going to be a long slow torturous next 5-10 years. Principles can wait that shit out while training cheap new grads (with March deegrees and deferred loans) instead of more expensive 33-35 year olds who have a wife, 2 kids, mortgage, car loans etc. Not going to happen. These people can not afford their lifestyles on $35,000 - 50,000 per year. New grads can though. Just postpone there late twenties and early thirties.
DUDE I can't freakin' believe it! somebody else in architecture cyberspace actually SEES and UNDERSTANDS the big picture. Holy Cow there is intelligent life on this planet! thanks for making my day on the fence, seriously.
Furthermore, bluehoose & Co. The same place that the 40 year old is in 10 years from now is the place that YOU and your generation had fairly reasonable access to when you were 25 (given the same variables).
You want to sustain the planet? Start by shutting down all the heating systems in the nursing homes and hospitals for the next 20 years until the planet has rid itself of the most selfish group of myopic vampires the world has seen in at least 1500 years.
New grads now have it tough too... The market sucks for everybody. I think some roles, maybe mid level PMs who aren't primarily project architects carrying design and production roles gave it toughest, finding positions in their skill set... But I don't think it's personal, or an attack on any particular generation, it is a function of what skillsets are needed, where the demand is in the market.
Also I wouldn't say it's the fresh grads benefitting from layoffs except that they have a different skill set. Jobs are tough to come by for everybody, which means the new market conditions demand different skill sets. If there are no mid level jobs for project managers because *there are no projects needing that range of skillsets* then it means you need to diversify in your skillsets. If you can PM as well as do real production with the necessary modern technology and tools which necessitates knowing how to operate cad, then you would be that much more versatile in a competitive job market. Versatility in skill sets and willingness to engage in different kinds of work will keep you busy when the market is tough. Instead of blaming everybody why don't you focus on developing those skills you need to respond to a tough market and be widely needed in this economy. Consider this: if all I can do is PM work, what happens to me when there are no projects needing my skillset? Versatility is security... Not saying it is important to be employable in different capacities. Learn the software, upgrade skillsets... That's what I and many other laid off people are doing, looking to focus on shoring up any missing skills...
If you refuse to learn cad software simply because it is beneath your experience level or current project role, that's different... There may simply not be jobs...
What pisses me off the most about all this is that we all saw this happening. Let me explain.
Take a good look at a 65 year old architect. This guy has been through at least 3 recessions. He knows and understands the trend. Now when you graduated, a person such as this 65 year old architect hired you, at a very low payscale. It's all right, we all know the truth here. You were hired cheap. Yet the 65 year old architect owned a mansion, went on outragious vacations, had expensive taste in food, drink, clothing and other material things. Why? Cuz he underpaid you cuz he knew what was coming and was able to take advantage of the situation. I am not saying that it was a concious effort on his part, just that he had been through it and fundamentally understands it. To make things worse though, he probably has a five year degree or four year if he was that old ten years ago, yet you went out and were sold on the idea that you needed to have the March. 2 years more debt. It's the cherry on top of the sunday. It's a dog eat dog world out there. The 65 year old architect is the survivor of all other recessions. The people who survive this one will learn from it and hire cheap labor to make themselves more money. Nothing really wrong with it but we should all be seeing it coming next time, except that those of us who survive are not going to tell the new cheap labor force, are we?
If you, the 5-15 year experienced architect are to survive, you need to learn these skills on top of all the other skills school never taught you.
Piggy - 33 years ago, during the 1976 recession, I was laid off from my job at a fairly large architectural firm. I had earned my license the year before. I used that opportunity to start my own firm, working out of the spare bedroom of my apartment. My wife and I went without any health insurance for four years. I lived off my savings for two years before starting to pay myself a salary.
I worked hard and built a successful firm that provides employment and opportunity for people like you (well ... not exactly to people like you ... we try to hire people with good judgment and a positive attitude).
You know NOTHING about me, yet you spew venom at me with no real knowledge or constraint. It's sad you've allowed your anger to destroy you. Your anger has no effect on me whatsoever.
I've lived through too many of these painful recessions. During each one everybody thought the profession was ruined and employment would never return. It always does return and those with real experience are in high demand once more.
I have no macro-economic solution to the cyclical nature of our profession. About all I can really do is manage my firm well, take care of my employees and offer my experience to those who might find it useful. I can make nobody drink from that cup - nor would I try.
bRink I respect your analysis...would work if the market still resembled in any way the "free" market that the baby boomers started with (and completely slashed and burned).
On the fence you just described the attitude of the typical AIA sycophant. But I don't think its limited to the baby boomers in Architecture, I'm pretty sure its across the board...
I remember I was interning at a firm and I helped out this 65 something Arch work on his project.
He played gambling online games all day...literally...while I endlessly sweated out the details of the project wrestling with CAD standards.
I thought I respected the guy too..until one day I had a conversation with him about the future.
(he has one daughter and he was apparently a Korean War vet to boot)
I asked him about some of the disconcerting macro trends in society and in particular the United States and he turned to me at one point and said,
"Why do I care, I'm going to be dead and gone soon anyways so I couldn't care less *chuckle chuckle*"
Then he mindlessly turned away and started gambling online again.
WHat a tool.
He's not the only one either...I'd say I received this general lackadaisical devil-may-care attitude from about 75% of the typical AIA sycophant architect I was forced to slave under the IDP program (which the AIA lies and says takes 3 years when the average duration is 10.5 (not counting those who get stonewalled into giving up))
I was just thinking....it would seem that most people who are content with their position in the field are not commenting on this discussion or ones akin to it. Therefore the MAJORITY of the comments are from people who are a) about to enter the field or b) jaded by it somehow.
I am going to go ahead and take the doomsday/hopeless scenario that people are describing with a grain of salt. Not that your situations aren't shitty and unfair but it's not the only situation out there.
"You know NOTHING about me, yet you spew venom at me with no real knowledge or constraint. It's sad you've allowed your anger to destroy you. Your anger has no effect on me whatsoever."
If you are sincere in your posts then obviously I do know something about you. Unless you are lying of course which wouldn't surprise me of course.
And, in my humble opinion, you in fact are demonstrating that #1 you think I'm angry because you accuse me of spewing venom and #2 it is obviously having SOME effect on you because you are addressing my comments.
So, you dodged the question,
again
can you give us a history of the health insurance benefits at "your" firm?
whose have you cut? If you've cut your own (or your partners, unlikely) I can almost GUARANTEE that you've kept the rates higher and coverage for your employees lower than for yourself and/or partners over the years.
If you try and fib out of this one your Goose cooked for sure.
Seriously, give it up AIA baby boomer sycophants out there...stop kidding yourselves, that whole "make love not war" thing ended up blowing up in your faces big time.
Now you all are just trying to keep the biggest piece of the pie for yourselves regardless of the fact that future generations will starve in rootless, indebted, servile, peasantlike existences.
Instead of Nero fiddling its the baby boomers assuring us, "move along...nothing to see here..."
voneckht I've often had the same thought, I'm sure there is some truth in it.
However at the same time, most Archs and aspiring architects have been conditioned to deny the obvious and esp. their own true feelings that the obvious is hardly ever communicated.
How many of us in Arch school would have liked to have said to the sadistic professors who expected all nighters to be sacrificed on the alter of this religious worship of all things unprofitable:
my god, this thread grows so fast!
good luck everyone. doesn't matter what kind of economy you are at, the market is always fair. it is always about people's own capability.
archi003 said, "good luck everyone. doesn't matter what kind of economy you are at, the market is always fair. it is always about people's own capability."
Shyeah...this is the same thing Wal Mart says out of the "right" side of its mouth then goes into the other room, picks up the phone and demands that the child laborers with no health insurance or minimum wage or OSHA or IRS to report to in CHina and India out of the "left" side of the same two face:
"pick up the pace...we need more cheap, toxic crap to stock on the shelves for these idiot credit card totin', pot smokin' Americans to buy..."
Piggy - we still pay full health and dental premiums for all full time employees. We have no part time employees. We've never employed unpaid interns. Family or spouse coverage is optional, at extra personal premium. Each of the partners receives exactly the same health coverage provided to every other employee. Some employees pay extra for optional higher level coverage out of their own pockets. I don't take the higher coverage myself. One of my partners does - the others don't.
or might as well have made a more appropriate comparison:
all the FAIA and AIA architects that practice and/or condone outsourcing AutoCad and rendering functions and drafting functions to chinese and INdian tech sweat shops with piss poor -non local lack of quality or relevancy to the particular place their sick creations are planted.
And NCARB pushing for/ accomodating international reciprocity
how can the National CARB seriously promote/ accomodate international reciprocity with a straight face?...sounds like a major oxyMORON to me.
BlueGoose would you be so kind as to DEFINE what "full coverage" is exactly, today in 2010 versus 1980? Also what are the premiums as a percentage of living costs in 2010 vs. 1980? Also, was it once upon a time fairly routine to provide coverage for entire families, again 2010 vs 1980?
Also, why is the AIA corporate partners with AutoDesk and McGrawhill, etc. ad nauseum...gee no monopoly there...I wonder what the accounting magic equations are that have been devised by all the lawyers and accountants at NCARB and the AIA to maintain that .org designation and the "not for profit" BS. I saw the tax returns the other day of the executives over at NCARB...
anyone out there wonder why the fees and such that are extorted from you are so outrageous?...salaries of $$$300,000 over at NCARB and such...not joking...how can anyone get ahead in a market that is advertised by the powers that be as "fair" when the system has been designed to use every form of leverage an up and coming architect has against themselves:
you seem to bash on anyone that either has a positive outlook on their own situation, or doesnt feel that the architecture profession is the devil. Why on earth do you care this much to spend so much time trying to convince those who disagree with you?
I am just curious
There is so many more reasons why the typical AIA baby boomer architect has so screwed themselves and the profession.
Mostly it has to do with trust and the fact that the public knows not to believe what Architects say any longer...they are too busy "designing art" and protecting their AIA egos to stay in touch with what really matters in Architecture.
Check this out for a dose of what the public REALLY thinks about the profession (less the self horn tooting AIA sycophantic usuals):
marmkid because there are 1/1000 people on this planet that are sincere about doing there best to leave the world a better (more honest) place everyday.
The 999/1000 will just keep telling you, "look into my eyes... HOPE and CHANGE, HOPE and CHANGE...you are getting sleepy...."
or "there is nothing to see here"
or in our particular profession's case:
"keep drafting monkey boy and when you are done there is the door and by the way thanks for the memories, you can keep your company shirt and cheap handbag with our logo as a token of our appreciation..."
And approx. 1/1000 don't want to see the "senioritis" in the profession anymore...the few who really care want to see the public trust the role of the Architect again...want the average person on the street value what Architects used to do --->build masterful buildings. Not experiments in childish Ego satisfaction or social engineering that's been foisted on them in the built environment.
"we didn't see the insane run-up in compensation other technical professions saw beginning in the late 1990s and ending in about 2006 or 2007. All of a sudden, software jocks with MS's in computer science were pulling $150,000 right out of school (they were making precisely what we were making up until 1997 or so).
Yeah, we're paid respectively, but relative to our friends in other fields, we look a little worse for wear."I think that's a fair point... But I'll also say this: I wouldn't want to write code all day and night... I know plenty of people at microsoft or other developers making significant paychecks beyond mine, but quite frankly... It would be much more of a pain, more tedious and in my view less interesting generally writing software than working as an architect doing what I do, which is much more diverse and rewarding personally... Also, I wouldn't presume that I *could* do that work if I decided to... Quite frankly, I am good at math, but don't have the attention span for that... I am detail oriented but not *as* nerdy as some friends who are software engineers... *Also... Software engineers WORK HARD... Architects work hard too, we go through schooling too, but I think sometimes architects make the mistake of assuming that we are getting a raw deal because we work hard while other professions have an "easier time" and make alot more money... Not really true in my experience... I work hard, harder than most I think... But the friends I have who work at places like microsoft or other high profile high paying software firm are *crazy*... You think architects are crazy workers, they are even more... Maybe... I think it depends on the person... My brother who is a software engineer was totally insane... I have more life than him: even when he wasn't working, he was studying... I mean self studying to keep up with the latest technology or brushing up on whatever it is he wasn't that strong in... Software engineers bust their asses and the technology changes a hell of alot faster than CAD... If we are complaining about keeping up with autocad, imagine changing programming languages every couple years...
Other professions have it hard too... Dentistry... Law... OMG... I would SLIT MY WRISTS! I'm sure glad SOMEBODY is willing to do that shit... So I don't have to... :P
Everybody works hard in any profession, I'm happy to work hard and earn a decent salary doing what I love, something interesting and rewarding with cool interesting people, that's diverse and where there's always something new to learn or design... Architecture's not THAT hard.. or THAT underpaid...! :) It's cyclical but worth it, don't think I would want to do something else...
Well, maybe I just haven't been here long enough to become jaded... :P
Piggy -
"there are 1/1000 people on this planet that are sincere about doing there best to leave the world a better (more honest) place everyday.
The 999/1000 will just keep telling you, "look into my eyes... HOPE and CHANGE, HOPE and CHANGE...you are getting sleepy...."
But my question is why waste time here, if you are that 1 in 1000 person who is sincere about change. Why are you not actually doing something, like working in the AIA to make changes?
bRink -
"Other professions have it hard too... Dentistry... Law... OMG... I would SLIT MY WRISTS! I'm sure glad SOMEBODY is willing to do that shit... So I don't have to... :P
Everybody works hard in any profession, I'm happy to work hard and earn a decent salary doing what I love, something interesting and rewarding with cool interesting people, that's diverse and where there's always something new to learn or design... Architecture's not THAT hard.. or THAT underpaid...! :) It's cyclical but worth it, don't think I would want to do something else... "
thank you!
finally someone else thinks that way also, though i imagine a lot of people do as well
That is the perfect response to any complaining about so called "low salaries"
And if that answer doesnt work for you, then you shouldnt be an architect
Architects shouldn't be complaining about slaries. Again, we all knew about it when we signed up for this roller coaster ride. If you want more money, it may be time for a career change. Plain and simple. Or do what you like doing and call it a day.
I was talking with some friends yesterday about the trend of multiple mini careers. In fact, this is the road I've started down and others have as well. Working for the man is just one way to build a career.
it has nothing to with complaining. I'm interested in the business models we have as an industry, and the longer I work in it, the more I think that the "consultant" model - where small firms, privately owned, provide "architectural" services to clients without any real risk to the service providers, isn't working that well.. because it is at odds with how the development and construction industries work (which require skin in the game).
These are legitimate issues, unless y'all are a bunch of ideological and technological conservatives who would argue that "this is the only way to do things because it's the way it's always been done. Burn dissidents at the stake for heresy." I support the idea of continuous entrepreneurship in any industry, and that means critically examining our own business models. I don'wt know what the right answer is, but it sure the heck begs a debate on archinect.
I think it requires a higher level of knowledge vs higher level of education. Which is to say we need to take back our schools. What they offer us today is almost to the point of worthlessness. You have to start there first, then you can move onto which business model may work better. As long as schools keep churning out people that have to be completely (+80%) trained by the firms that hire them, compensation in salary will always start low. It has to because the firm can only bill out so much for the hours a new hire provides.
Also, lets not pretend this market is going to spring back real quick. It is going to be a long slow torturous next 5-10 years. Principles can wait that shit out while training cheap new grads (with March deegrees and deferred loans) instead of more expensive 33-35 year olds who have a wife, 2 kids, mortgage, car loans etc. Not going to happen. These people can not afford their lifestyles on $35,000 - 50,000 per year. New grads can though. Just postpone there late twenties and early thirties.
Hey, I'm in that 33-35 demographic and with pay and benefit cuts I'm damn close to the upper end of your "low" salary figures. Yes, those cuts have kept the firm afloat, but they are torturous on the family budget, i.e. the mortgage doesn't get cut in a recession. I guess it beat the alternative though.
I did hear about another local firm getting some big gov't jobs and looking to staff up. A friend mentioned I could get on the "short list" of potential hires because #1, I'm registered.
From everything I've heard and seen the fresh grad with zero experience is the worst off of anyone.
I think actually new business models will only emerge through example... Entrepreneurs willing to test waters and try something different. We can talk about it, think about it, but nothing new happens unless somebody takes a risk and acts on an idea... One new practice can set a stage for possibility and there's an evolution in practice that happens through doing something different that can invent new trends or models...
Not sure what that might be... Might come from partnerships with other industry professionals or business partners in other disciplines, or through unprecedented business ventures... Not sure... If it's really new, maybe nobody has tried it before... If it is successful I think people will follow... What's a real world example of a different kind of architectural business practice? A real world success story of a firm that operates differently...?
Distrubing Trend in Job Searches
thats good advice bR
I have also heard that "starchitects" also many times pay next to nothing just for the fact that it is such a resume builder for their employees, especially low level ones
Or at least many think it is a resume builder that they will basically work for free just to be under a "name"
that can also skew the salary numbers a bit, especially for those coming right out of school who may think it is important to work for a name architect
bRink,
You're right, but I think it's fair to say that we didn't see the insane run-up in compensation other technical professions saw beginning in the late 1990s and ending in about 2006 or 2007. All of a sudden, software jocks with MS's in computer science were pulling $150,000 right out of school (they were making precisely what we were making up until 1997 or so).
Yeah, we're paid respectively, but relative to our friends in other fields, we look a little worse for wear. I'm not complaining, but I will say again here what I've been saying at all of these threads - other professions transformed their business models while ours pretty much refused to do so. It's all in the businses model, and if we don't adapt along the lines that've been discussed here on other threads, things will get worse if we don't start seriously thinking about it.
I am so sick and tired of the hippie talk (Woodstock was many decades ago bub) about how "great" gen x/y is to a baby boomer's patronizing perception.
Put your money where your mouth is you wrinkled, yellow-bellied, old and rotten 55+ year olds...that means you BlueGoose
You and your generation TRULY has no idea what gen x/y is going through...thanks to you ironically enough.
All you guys seem to have is worthless talk to offer.
Yes ... well ... perhaps Piggy, in his infinite wisdom, is correct.
About all I can really offer is stable employment, with solid salaries and benefits, to 55 design professionals, who, for the most part, seem to appreciate the supportive working environment and meaningful career opportunities we have provided over the past 30 years. Oh, and four of those folks have become owners in the business.
Probably really not all that much, in hindsight.
well, you didnt solve all of Piggy's problems for him, as he clearly is not to blame for anything and has just been screwed by everyone else
so yes, it really is not much to offer at all
Piggy does have some points. Most of which is akin to the disapearing middle class. PM's, with 5-15 years of experiance are the ones being laid off right now. Why? Cuz they make more than the cad monkeys who can be trained to do their job. It just happened to a friend of mine. These people are not going to be re-hired over new grads with mad new cad skills any time soon. They need to realize this and move foreward somehow. Most I think will end up in other fields making good money. Others may try their hands at their own firms. But over all you will probably not see these people at the AIA conventions in the future.
OTF: "Piggy does have some points: a room full of blind monkeys banging on manual typewriters can make "some points". You're not really buying into any of the things this nutjob is posting, are you?
i think those with 5-15 years experience are being laid off just like pretty much every other group is
yes, some are being laid off for CAD monkeys
Others are recieving pay cuts
it is not just those with 5-15 years experience who are being laid off though, that's ridiculous to think
i dont even know if they are in the majority of those being laid off
I have an excel spreadsheet I've developed for determining paysetting for architecture if anyone wants it.
I'm not saying everything piggy says has merit. The guy is disgruntled and rightfully so. He is partially to blame for it but so is the system who sold him the goods. Valid points need to be looked at and one of those is that at this point in time people with 5-15 years are not going to be as employable as the newly graduated M.arch. Another way to look at it though is that maybe it was time for these birds to leave the nest and start their own firms. Still, as many here will attest to, firms don't generally teach you how to operate your own firm. You are pretty much cut the frick loose. Same for the mentorship and IDP. It's pretty much, teach yourself. We eat are own is a fair statement. Now what you do with what you have is really up to you though.
I dont know about this though
Having 5-15 years experience counts a lot more than just being cheap
While i admit those guys will probably not be paid what they are worth or close to it, I imagine they are more employable than people with no experience
From what i have seen, basically everyone looking for a job is taking a step back in their actual level
If you have 5-15 years experience, you are back to almost entry level if looking for a job
I would certainly hire someone with experience over someone i have to train and watch, if their starting salaries are basically the same
Of course that just brings up another problem with having to take such a drastic paycut to have a job in the first place
But i see that happening more than just cutting them out in favor of someone who knows basically nothing
on the fence said "Most of which is akin to the disappearing middle class."
Perhaps this is the most concise way to put it.
Its not just architecture you myopic fools. Although the AIA does a really good job of promoting the same moronic HOPE and CHANGE hippie BS to obfuscate reality.
Perhaps I started getting pissed 7 years ago when the Arch firm I was working for (3 baby boomer principles and 10 45 year old somethings) dropped my health insurance as previously setup for my wife and I (couldn't afford for my wife and she was in school) still paid the same to cover just me AND we couldn't afford the $1,000 a month for her asthma medication. Also couldn't get it from another country or cook it up myself thanks to the "free" market.
Thats just one anecdote. Thats what made me begin doing the research into the demographics and funny money creation being leveraged on my generation courtesy of the "generosity" and "magnanimusness" of folks like bluegoose (I'm still assuming you are one of THEM...correct me if I'm wrong). It is nothing personal if you are the exception to the rule (had at least 2.3 kids to replace yourself and the previous generations that sacrificed for your existence and never had an abortion and aren't involved with voting for all the debt being leveraged on us then and only then do I apologize. Unfortunately there are VERY very few exceptions of those born 1949-1964 or whatever).
Tell me you haven't "adjusted" the health insurance of your employees blue goose...
Bastards. Myself and my grandchildren have been setup to be slaves to Chinese Lenders whose debt was purchased by scared dying, procrastinating baby boomers.
marmkid these software programs favor those who don't know jack about building things or architecture on purpose.
The only protection against this were drafting tables.
No you wouldn't. Because if you were in that position you would understand that the person with 10 years experience that you just hired is going to leave ASAP. You also know what the bottom line is, which is pretty freakin bleak right now. Previous employer is paying out of his own pocket to keep two people in the office at 85% and 24 hrs per week. If you knew, you would too. If you knew, you'd hire fresh grads because you know there is no/little work. While it is true you can pay for a 10 year experiianced architect to deal with the little amount of work coming in, you can pay far less to "mentor" and I use that term loosely here, the new cheap grad, who is grateful to have any job and will stay by your side for 10 years. The underpaid 10 year architect is going ASAP. He knows it and you know it. That is of course, if you knew, but you don't. These architects are going to have to do one of two things, move on with their own firms or move on somewhere else. Period.
My above post is in regards to marmkids last.
exactly on the fence. like A NAIL ON THE HEAD.
so stop your freakin' fake charity talk bluegoose & CO. you only make it worse by pretending you and your generation gives a damn.
On the fence
I see what you are saying
I was referring to firms hiring who have actual steady work right now
Also, lets not pretend this market is going to spring back real quick. It is going to be a long slow torturous next 5-10 years. Principles can wait that shit out while training cheap new grads (with March deegrees and deferred loans) instead of more expensive 33-35 year olds who have a wife, 2 kids, mortgage, car loans etc. Not going to happen. These people can not afford their lifestyles on $35,000 - 50,000 per year. New grads can though. Just postpone there late twenties and early thirties.
DUDE I can't freakin' believe it! somebody else in architecture cyberspace actually SEES and UNDERSTANDS the big picture. Holy Cow there is intelligent life on this planet! thanks for making my day on the fence, seriously.
Furthermore, bluehoose & Co. The same place that the 40 year old is in 10 years from now is the place that YOU and your generation had fairly reasonable access to when you were 25 (given the same variables).
You want to sustain the planet? Start by shutting down all the heating systems in the nursing homes and hospitals for the next 20 years until the planet has rid itself of the most selfish group of myopic vampires the world has seen in at least 1500 years.
New grads now have it tough too... The market sucks for everybody. I think some roles, maybe mid level PMs who aren't primarily project architects carrying design and production roles gave it toughest, finding positions in their skill set... But I don't think it's personal, or an attack on any particular generation, it is a function of what skillsets are needed, where the demand is in the market.
Also I wouldn't say it's the fresh grads benefitting from layoffs except that they have a different skill set. Jobs are tough to come by for everybody, which means the new market conditions demand different skill sets. If there are no mid level jobs for project managers because *there are no projects needing that range of skillsets* then it means you need to diversify in your skillsets. If you can PM as well as do real production with the necessary modern technology and tools which necessitates knowing how to operate cad, then you would be that much more versatile in a competitive job market. Versatility in skill sets and willingness to engage in different kinds of work will keep you busy when the market is tough. Instead of blaming everybody why don't you focus on developing those skills you need to respond to a tough market and be widely needed in this economy. Consider this: if all I can do is PM work, what happens to me when there are no projects needing my skillset? Versatility is security... Not saying it is important to be employable in different capacities. Learn the software, upgrade skillsets... That's what I and many other laid off people are doing, looking to focus on shoring up any missing skills...
If you refuse to learn cad software simply because it is beneath your experience level or current project role, that's different... There may simply not be jobs...
What pisses me off the most about all this is that we all saw this happening. Let me explain.
Take a good look at a 65 year old architect. This guy has been through at least 3 recessions. He knows and understands the trend. Now when you graduated, a person such as this 65 year old architect hired you, at a very low payscale. It's all right, we all know the truth here. You were hired cheap. Yet the 65 year old architect owned a mansion, went on outragious vacations, had expensive taste in food, drink, clothing and other material things. Why? Cuz he underpaid you cuz he knew what was coming and was able to take advantage of the situation. I am not saying that it was a concious effort on his part, just that he had been through it and fundamentally understands it. To make things worse though, he probably has a five year degree or four year if he was that old ten years ago, yet you went out and were sold on the idea that you needed to have the March. 2 years more debt. It's the cherry on top of the sunday. It's a dog eat dog world out there. The 65 year old architect is the survivor of all other recessions. The people who survive this one will learn from it and hire cheap labor to make themselves more money. Nothing really wrong with it but we should all be seeing it coming next time, except that those of us who survive are not going to tell the new cheap labor force, are we?
If you, the 5-15 year experienced architect are to survive, you need to learn these skills on top of all the other skills school never taught you.
Piggy - 33 years ago, during the 1976 recession, I was laid off from my job at a fairly large architectural firm. I had earned my license the year before. I used that opportunity to start my own firm, working out of the spare bedroom of my apartment. My wife and I went without any health insurance for four years. I lived off my savings for two years before starting to pay myself a salary.
I worked hard and built a successful firm that provides employment and opportunity for people like you (well ... not exactly to people like you ... we try to hire people with good judgment and a positive attitude).
You know NOTHING about me, yet you spew venom at me with no real knowledge or constraint. It's sad you've allowed your anger to destroy you. Your anger has no effect on me whatsoever.
I've lived through too many of these painful recessions. During each one everybody thought the profession was ruined and employment would never return. It always does return and those with real experience are in high demand once more.
I have no macro-economic solution to the cyclical nature of our profession. About all I can really do is manage my firm well, take care of my employees and offer my experience to those who might find it useful. I can make nobody drink from that cup - nor would I try.
Typos: mid level PMs *have* it the toughest... It *is* important to be employable in different kinds of work
bRink I respect your analysis...would work if the market still resembled in any way the "free" market that the baby boomers started with (and completely slashed and burned).
On the fence you just described the attitude of the typical AIA sycophant. But I don't think its limited to the baby boomers in Architecture, I'm pretty sure its across the board...
I remember I was interning at a firm and I helped out this 65 something Arch work on his project.
He played gambling online games all day...literally...while I endlessly sweated out the details of the project wrestling with CAD standards.
I thought I respected the guy too..until one day I had a conversation with him about the future.
(he has one daughter and he was apparently a Korean War vet to boot)
I asked him about some of the disconcerting macro trends in society and in particular the United States and he turned to me at one point and said,
"Why do I care, I'm going to be dead and gone soon anyways so I couldn't care less *chuckle chuckle*"
Then he mindlessly turned away and started gambling online again.
WHat a tool.
He's not the only one either...I'd say I received this general lackadaisical devil-may-care attitude from about 75% of the typical AIA sycophant architect I was forced to slave under the IDP program (which the AIA lies and says takes 3 years when the average duration is 10.5 (not counting those who get stonewalled into giving up))
I was just thinking....it would seem that most people who are content with their position in the field are not commenting on this discussion or ones akin to it. Therefore the MAJORITY of the comments are from people who are a) about to enter the field or b) jaded by it somehow.
I am going to go ahead and take the doomsday/hopeless scenario that people are describing with a grain of salt. Not that your situations aren't shitty and unfair but it's not the only situation out there.
bluegoose said,
"You know NOTHING about me, yet you spew venom at me with no real knowledge or constraint. It's sad you've allowed your anger to destroy you. Your anger has no effect on me whatsoever."
If you are sincere in your posts then obviously I do know something about you. Unless you are lying of course which wouldn't surprise me of course.
And, in my humble opinion, you in fact are demonstrating that #1 you think I'm angry because you accuse me of spewing venom and #2 it is obviously having SOME effect on you because you are addressing my comments.
So, you dodged the question,
again
can you give us a history of the health insurance benefits at "your" firm?
whose have you cut? If you've cut your own (or your partners, unlikely) I can almost GUARANTEE that you've kept the rates higher and coverage for your employees lower than for yourself and/or partners over the years.
If you try and fib out of this one your Goose cooked for sure.
Seriously, give it up AIA baby boomer sycophants out there...stop kidding yourselves, that whole "make love not war" thing ended up blowing up in your faces big time.
Now you all are just trying to keep the biggest piece of the pie for yourselves regardless of the fact that future generations will starve in rootless, indebted, servile, peasantlike existences.
Instead of Nero fiddling its the baby boomers assuring us, "move along...nothing to see here..."
voneckht I've often had the same thought, I'm sure there is some truth in it.
However at the same time, most Archs and aspiring architects have been conditioned to deny the obvious and esp. their own true feelings that the obvious is hardly ever communicated.
How many of us in Arch school would have liked to have said to the sadistic professors who expected all nighters to be sacrificed on the alter of this religious worship of all things unprofitable:
"I'm amd as hell and I'm not taking it anymore?"
...but didn't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_qgVn-Op7Q
my god, this thread grows so fast!
good luck everyone. doesn't matter what kind of economy you are at, the market is always fair. it is always about people's own capability.
archi003 said, "good luck everyone. doesn't matter what kind of economy you are at, the market is always fair. it is always about people's own capability."
Shyeah...this is the same thing Wal Mart says out of the "right" side of its mouth then goes into the other room, picks up the phone and demands that the child laborers with no health insurance or minimum wage or OSHA or IRS to report to in CHina and India out of the "left" side of the same two face:
"pick up the pace...we need more cheap, toxic crap to stock on the shelves for these idiot credit card totin', pot smokin' Americans to buy..."
Piggy - we still pay full health and dental premiums for all full time employees. We have no part time employees. We've never employed unpaid interns. Family or spouse coverage is optional, at extra personal premium. Each of the partners receives exactly the same health coverage provided to every other employee. Some employees pay extra for optional higher level coverage out of their own pockets. I don't take the higher coverage myself. One of my partners does - the others don't.
or might as well have made a more appropriate comparison:
all the FAIA and AIA architects that practice and/or condone outsourcing AutoCad and rendering functions and drafting functions to chinese and INdian tech sweat shops with piss poor -non local lack of quality or relevancy to the particular place their sick creations are planted.
And NCARB pushing for/ accomodating international reciprocity
how can the National CARB seriously promote/ accomodate international reciprocity with a straight face?...sounds like a major oxyMORON to me.
BlueGoose would you be so kind as to DEFINE what "full coverage" is exactly, today in 2010 versus 1980? Also what are the premiums as a percentage of living costs in 2010 vs. 1980? Also, was it once upon a time fairly routine to provide coverage for entire families, again 2010 vs 1980?
Playing the HOPE and CHANGE game again I see...
Also, why is the AIA corporate partners with AutoDesk and McGrawhill, etc. ad nauseum...gee no monopoly there...I wonder what the accounting magic equations are that have been devised by all the lawyers and accountants at NCARB and the AIA to maintain that .org designation and the "not for profit" BS. I saw the tax returns the other day of the executives over at NCARB...
anyone out there wonder why the fees and such that are extorted from you are so outrageous?...salaries of $$$300,000 over at NCARB and such...not joking...how can anyone get ahead in a market that is advertised by the powers that be as "fair" when the system has been designed to use every form of leverage an up and coming architect has against themselves:
http://blog.arefaq.com/?p=54
you seem to bash on anyone that either has a positive outlook on their own situation, or doesnt feel that the architecture profession is the devil. Why on earth do you care this much to spend so much time trying to convince those who disagree with you?
I am just curious
Here is where the AIA lies and says the internship is three years:
http://www.archcareers.org/
Here is where the CT AIA lies and says its three as well:
http://www.aiact.org/userfiles/file/Careers_Licensure/Career_brochure.pdf
Gee...do I detect just a little duplicity?
There is so many more reasons why the typical AIA baby boomer architect has so screwed themselves and the profession.
Mostly it has to do with trust and the fact that the public knows not to believe what Architects say any longer...they are too busy "designing art" and protecting their AIA egos to stay in touch with what really matters in Architecture.
Check this out for a dose of what the public REALLY thinks about the profession (less the self horn tooting AIA sycophantic usuals):
(this one is my personal favorite) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cameron-sinclair/the-role-of-the-architect_b_453905.html
http://architect-media.com/portal/wts/cgmc6Fce-BaqBtEqmBEiucm03Dm8a
http://www.cbc.ca/arts/story/2010/01/27/edmonton-gallery-opening-stout.html
marmkid because there are 1/1000 people on this planet that are sincere about doing there best to leave the world a better (more honest) place everyday.
The 999/1000 will just keep telling you, "look into my eyes... HOPE and CHANGE, HOPE and CHANGE...you are getting sleepy...."
or "there is nothing to see here"
or in our particular profession's case:
"keep drafting monkey boy and when you are done there is the door and by the way thanks for the memories, you can keep your company shirt and cheap handbag with our logo as a token of our appreciation..."
And approx. 1/1000 don't want to see the "senioritis" in the profession anymore...the few who really care want to see the public trust the role of the Architect again...want the average person on the street value what Architects used to do --->build masterful buildings. Not experiments in childish Ego satisfaction or social engineering that's been foisted on them in the built environment.
Dude, you are a miracle. I've never seen anyone grind so many axes simultaneously.
Urbanist, re:
"we didn't see the insane run-up in compensation other technical professions saw beginning in the late 1990s and ending in about 2006 or 2007. All of a sudden, software jocks with MS's in computer science were pulling $150,000 right out of school (they were making precisely what we were making up until 1997 or so).Yeah, we're paid respectively, but relative to our friends in other fields, we look a little worse for wear."I think that's a fair point... But I'll also say this: I wouldn't want to write code all day and night... I know plenty of people at microsoft or other developers making significant paychecks beyond mine, but quite frankly... It would be much more of a pain, more tedious and in my view less interesting generally writing software than working as an architect doing what I do, which is much more diverse and rewarding personally... Also, I wouldn't presume that I *could* do that work if I decided to... Quite frankly, I am good at math, but don't have the attention span for that... I am detail oriented but not *as* nerdy as some friends who are software engineers... *Also... Software engineers WORK HARD... Architects work hard too, we go through schooling too, but I think sometimes architects make the mistake of assuming that we are getting a raw deal because we work hard while other professions have an "easier time" and make alot more money... Not really true in my experience... I work hard, harder than most I think... But the friends I have who work at places like microsoft or other high profile high paying software firm are *crazy*... You think architects are crazy workers, they are even more... Maybe... I think it depends on the person... My brother who is a software engineer was totally insane... I have more life than him: even when he wasn't working, he was studying... I mean self studying to keep up with the latest technology or brushing up on whatever it is he wasn't that strong in... Software engineers bust their asses and the technology changes a hell of alot faster than CAD... If we are complaining about keeping up with autocad, imagine changing programming languages every couple years...
Other professions have it hard too... Dentistry... Law... OMG... I would SLIT MY WRISTS! I'm sure glad SOMEBODY is willing to do that shit... So I don't have to... :P
Everybody works hard in any profession, I'm happy to work hard and earn a decent salary doing what I love, something interesting and rewarding with cool interesting people, that's diverse and where there's always something new to learn or design... Architecture's not THAT hard.. or THAT underpaid...! :) It's cyclical but worth it, don't think I would want to do something else...
Well, maybe I just haven't been here long enough to become jaded... :P
Piggy -
"there are 1/1000 people on this planet that are sincere about doing there best to leave the world a better (more honest) place everyday.
The 999/1000 will just keep telling you, "look into my eyes... HOPE and CHANGE, HOPE and CHANGE...you are getting sleepy...."
But my question is why waste time here, if you are that 1 in 1000 person who is sincere about change. Why are you not actually doing something, like working in the AIA to make changes?
bRink -
"Other professions have it hard too... Dentistry... Law... OMG... I would SLIT MY WRISTS! I'm sure glad SOMEBODY is willing to do that shit... So I don't have to... :P
Everybody works hard in any profession, I'm happy to work hard and earn a decent salary doing what I love, something interesting and rewarding with cool interesting people, that's diverse and where there's always something new to learn or design... Architecture's not THAT hard.. or THAT underpaid...! :) It's cyclical but worth it, don't think I would want to do something else... "
thank you!
finally someone else thinks that way also, though i imagine a lot of people do as well
That is the perfect response to any complaining about so called "low salaries"
And if that answer doesnt work for you, then you shouldnt be an architect
Architects shouldn't be complaining about slaries. Again, we all knew about it when we signed up for this roller coaster ride. If you want more money, it may be time for a career change. Plain and simple. Or do what you like doing and call it a day.
I was talking with some friends yesterday about the trend of multiple mini careers. In fact, this is the road I've started down and others have as well. Working for the man is just one way to build a career.
it has nothing to with complaining. I'm interested in the business models we have as an industry, and the longer I work in it, the more I think that the "consultant" model - where small firms, privately owned, provide "architectural" services to clients without any real risk to the service providers, isn't working that well.. because it is at odds with how the development and construction industries work (which require skin in the game).
These are legitimate issues, unless y'all are a bunch of ideological and technological conservatives who would argue that "this is the only way to do things because it's the way it's always been done. Burn dissidents at the stake for heresy." I support the idea of continuous entrepreneurship in any industry, and that means critically examining our own business models. I don'wt know what the right answer is, but it sure the heck begs a debate on archinect.
Fair point urbanist... What would you suggest? Design builds? Architect as developer?
I think it requires a higher level of knowledge vs higher level of education. Which is to say we need to take back our schools. What they offer us today is almost to the point of worthlessness. You have to start there first, then you can move onto which business model may work better. As long as schools keep churning out people that have to be completely (+80%) trained by the firms that hire them, compensation in salary will always start low. It has to because the firm can only bill out so much for the hours a new hire provides.
Hey, I'm in that 33-35 demographic and with pay and benefit cuts I'm damn close to the upper end of your "low" salary figures. Yes, those cuts have kept the firm afloat, but they are torturous on the family budget, i.e. the mortgage doesn't get cut in a recession. I guess it beat the alternative though.
I did hear about another local firm getting some big gov't jobs and looking to staff up. A friend mentioned I could get on the "short list" of potential hires because #1, I'm registered.
From everything I've heard and seen the fresh grad with zero experience is the worst off of anyone.
I think actually new business models will only emerge through example... Entrepreneurs willing to test waters and try something different. We can talk about it, think about it, but nothing new happens unless somebody takes a risk and acts on an idea... One new practice can set a stage for possibility and there's an evolution in practice that happens through doing something different that can invent new trends or models...
Not sure what that might be... Might come from partnerships with other industry professionals or business partners in other disciplines, or through unprecedented business ventures... Not sure... If it's really new, maybe nobody has tried it before... If it is successful I think people will follow... What's a real world example of a different kind of architectural business practice? A real world success story of a firm that operates differently...?
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