A 35 year old professional Architect with License should be making a hell of a lot more than $50,000. I made more than that when I was 35 over 20 years ago. I'm a small firm with no employees at the moment but when I did have staff they made more than that. Its terrible what other Architects are doing, but maybe thats why they've been getting the work, bargain basement fees.
Bluegoose-- Isn't Piggy amusing? His name is so appropriate- poor kid, he grew up having everything handed to him (by baby boomers, no doubt) and has such a nicely developed sense of entitlement! Give him a little statuette for showing up!! Now that he actually has to compete with a boomer, he is devastated. Oooh, bad boomer- you worked your entire life and saved for your retirement, and now you are using heat in your retirement home that should be mine!!
Too bad he will never realize that all his fears will come true- he obviously does not have the attitude or leadership required to develop his own successful firm, perhaps even a successful career. Poor boy. Maybe some baby boomer in his family will pass away and leave him an inheritance.
So congrats to you for building a successful firm. It is TONS of hard work, and this last year has been more difficult than any in my 30 plus years in the business, so I feel for you.
And Piggy,there are others out there besides Blue Goose who provide great opportunities for their staff. Many more of them than you think. My firm pays for full health, dental and eye insurance for all employees, and always has. We pay for families if they need it as well. (some are covered by spouse's employment) It is the best coverage we can buy in our area, and costs us about $12,000 a year for a family. Oh, we provide full short term and long term disability insurance, life insurance, a very generous 401K plan with a 10% yearly contribution with no match required, and every employee got an end of the year bonus, and a raise as of January 1.
Unfortunately, you would not last here, I can tell. We hire the best of the best, and they understand what we need to do to keep the firm going. It is not easy, and everyone here works smart and works hard. My staff is really good, and they help to make the firm profitable enough to fund all those perks. We have had no layoffs ever, and actually hired new staff last year.
Urbanist said, "this is the only way to do things because it's the way it's always been done. Burn dissidents at the stake for heresy."
I totally agree. You'd think the profession would be a little more grown up than the average mentality endured in high school at the hands of the "popular crowd"...
On the fence said, "Which is to say we need to take back our schools. What they offer us today is almost to the point of worthlessness. "
Too right mate. Too many schools graduating too many starving artists who can't balance a checkbook. MAKE IT competetive again and attract the smartie pants back to the profession---weed out the dummies. But that would first and foremost require the sacrifice of the contemporary religious worship of ****gasp**** equality....(oh no now I am going to hell, whatever shall I do) Call me a heretic if you like but THIS IS what is at the ROOT of the problem. Stop scaring intelligent people away from the schools and into MBA, LAW, ENG, Medicine....Start attracting them. STOP attracting and accomodating the riff raff and half assers and START kicking them out (gee I think 1/2 of all the faculty wouldbe out of a job and back diggin ditches and doing something useful to society for a change)...the number of schools would go from 121? right now to 60...might be about right...guarantee because of the laws of supply and demand instead of making 35K with an MArch (and that was in the good times) you'd make double that or 70K practically OVERNIGHT.
THis is why I am so happy to have heard of a school thats probably going down...Cornell? was it...Please oh please make 1/2 of them them go away.
In this sense I (almost) can't believe they recently accredited an inner city school like the University of Hartford...ridiculous. Gee thats REALLY going to increase the competitiveness of the MArch in the marketplace in the future...shyeah right.
archie when all else fails it has always been comforting to me to know that the baby boomers will be ten feet under and rotting in the not too distant future.
My parents were definitely not the typical baby boomers...had five children (no abortions) and sacrificed their entire lives so that my siblings and I could get off to a better start than they did. Father worked like an animal and mother stayed home at all costs.
It is sad that they were the exception. The rest of you have generally been spoiled brats from cradle to grave. You frittered away your teen years partying and smokin' dope and giving a place for an edless litany of socially acceptable vices to take root...and now 20 years from a certain exit from this planet the baby boomers are generally stealing the next generation blind and will leave them living a life that is of the quality of probably the turn of the century before last.
Perhaps even more fundamental than that, whats worse is nobody has a deep sense of connectedness anymore, truly. The baby boomers have generally ascribed to the principle of "I'm going to get my piece before its all gone if I have to beg, borrow, steal, or lie"
Then they have the nerve to pretend to be interested in sustainability.
hypocrites.
archie you MAY be the exception to this rule...I don't know enough about you or if what you say is true.
If true in the sense in which you say it, and you aren't engaging in the ubiquitous contemporary practice of semantical legalese, then you know what that is pretty awesome but your firm IS the exception and thats wonderful but not what hardly any person with 5-15 years experience should expect...like maybe less than 5% of firms I don't know but its definitely unique.
ignoring the question that comes to mind with what your parents not having an abortion has to do with anything related here......
"Then they have the nerve to pretend to be interested in sustainability."
I am not sure why you now think that baby boomers are not interested in sustainability?
?
one might wonder about the nerve you have pretending to care about changing the architecture profession, yet seem to basically just rant and rail against the AIA and baby boomers on archinect
I said, "You'd think the profession would be a little more grown up than the average mentality endured in high school at the hands of the "popular crowd"..."
archie said, "Isn't Piggy amusing? His name is so appropriate- poor kid, he grew up having everything handed to him (by baby boomers, no doubt) and has such a nicely developed sense of entitlement! Give him a little statuette for showing up!! Now that he actually has to compete with a boomer, he is devastated. Oooh, bad boomer- you worked your entire life and saved for your retirement, and now you are using heat in your retirement home that should be mine!!"
and,
"Unfortunately, you would not last here, I can tell. We hire the best of the best, and they understand what we need to do to keep the firm going. It is not easy, and everyone here works smart and works hard. My staff is really good, and they help to make the firm profitable enough to fund all those perks. We have had no layoffs ever, and actually hired new staff last year."
Typical "my firm is bigger than your" corporate mentality ego trip that has led to Wal Marts and Taco Bells (and lack of quality of life for the average person that comes along with them).
Take your ego trip false pride and use it on someone else. Congrats on being a tool who never grew up past the sixth grade. The baby boomers were born 27 years before I was and have royally screwed my generation out of the opportunities to start firms (shyeah...free market my ass) so faulting me for this is totally retardiculous archie.
The market was a lot freer until your IRS accomodating arses strangled it out of existence.
Now you print money (legal counterfeiting), spread it around, and act like you are actually adding value to the same dollar bills your grandparents first made valuable---when in fact you are only playing a dangerous shell game of hyperinflation. The baby boomers are thieves and charlatans in the first degree.
marmkid said, "ignoring the question that comes to mind with what your parents not having an abortion has to do with anything related here......"
no it is totally germane.
I think it was in this thread that I stated earlier that approx. half the problem with the middle class dissappearing is due to the demographic vacuum created by the baby boomers.
Conservative, authoritative, expert numbers are 50 MILLION abortions since Roe V Wade in 1973 (by the baby boomers mostly).
Also not brought into the base of what used to be a population curve shaped like a pyramid are the tens if not hundred of millions of authentic American children the aborted would have had as well.
clearly the best of the baby boomer generation (with the rest being the devil), and clearly the best of today's generation (with the rest being AIA idiots)
I would like to comment on a few of these entries, if no one minds - the range is clearly full-spread.
As to what 'distant' said on the 10th - "more job openings were available than qualified candidates. Many job seekers abused firms then ... rightly or wrongly, this is the flip side of that equation."
I've heard this comparison from several on this discussion board, and it frankly irritates me to read them. Yes, there was that 'glorious' time when job seekers actually had the upper hand, and could ask (for the first time in my memory) for what they were worth. So, job seekers are suddenly supposed to feel sorry for the employer because they had to weed out a few a-holes at recruitment time? Here's the big difference between the claims of job-seeker 'abuse,' and what's happening now - the problem of having TOO MUCH WORK trumps NOT ENOUGH work to go around.
I was on the hiring end during the recent 'a-hole' period, and yes, it was rather bothersome that a few candidates were kinda cocky but, at the end of the day, I knew our firm would continue to prosper and that my future had employment in it. We always found good quality people, albeit suffering through the awful thing of weeding out the bad apples. Please.
On the other hand, 'distant' you seem to be the rare breed that considers what the rest of us are going thorough and would rather not take advantage of the situation (i.e. hire cheap/free help) as the stories here illustrate other employers have done.
The fact is, as you say - "With the shift in the economy, the pendulum has swung from a "seller's market" to a "buyer's market" -- that's the reality." You're right, this IS the reality.
This profession is set up for the pitfalls and spikes inherent to the general marketplace. Our product is not a 'necessity' so, when bad times hit, the luxuries get tossed aside. Architecture is a luxury. Simple. This profession isn't taken seriously enough (like the legal or medical fields) so, it gets shelved when times are tough. Ironically I also have doctor and lawyer friends who are hurting badly in this recession - even THEY aren't immune to this downturn.
Piggy, your bitterness is morbidly entertaining, and I do feel your pain. You seem to have a head on your shoulders, and getting kicked around like we have, can make even the most optimistic of us turn sour. I hope that you don't quit. A job recruiter recently told me to get 'another income source' if I wanted to continue in this field. At first I was shocked, this - coming from a recruiter who's job it was to place me in architecture work. This advice sat with me a while, and I realized that she was right. If I want to continue working in this profession, I'd better have other sources of income as well, so as to weather these types of storms. I know how much that sounds sucky, but it's the truth. Even the best of us get laid off, they're no guarantees. Brink is correct - this profession is cyclical - it's how one can survive the bottom part of the cycle that matters as much as anything else.
Urbanist has the right idea - innovating a new paradigm for ourselves, and the industry, is the future. As Strawbeary says, spend time thinking about 'other' ways to be a designer rather than the traditional path (i.e. full time employ) is a good idea. I think now is the time that someone will 'risk' new models - and putting 'skin' in the game is definitely part of it.
roobqt thank God my wife is a nurse. (I often encourage her to not be so nice to many of her 50-65 year old patients...if you know what I mean *wink* *wink*)
Perhaps I'm the type of guy though that actually DOES plan for the worst and hopes for the best, i.e. in this case what would I SAY if I didn't have source of income, the typical amount of debt young people do these days, my two kids, a mortgage payment AND I was sold a rotten apple by a duplicitous profession.
I'm pretty sure I'm saying what a lot of people are thinking but have been conditioned by the system NOT to think for long or never, ever say outloud, "political correctness" (ommissions of truth) be damned. By the time they've been trained not to think such things they are as dumb and useful to society as a brick.
So thank god I can survive financially for as long as I want...I saw the damn warning signs and prepared myself for layoff (hell I have a years worth of food in my basement) and I have zero credit card debt.
Also, roobqt I am glad that you "get" the intention that some of these extremes I go to are intended to be entertaining. At the very least it gets the gears in people's brains working after getting all rusty in the "good" times. I am glad times are "bad" in fact I hope they get 100x worse before they get better. I hope they get so bad that the baby boomers printing of dollar bills amounts to nothing Zimbabwae- Argentina style and then perhaps we'll go back to the gold standard and we can draft by hand again and then we'll have some real fun!
The awesome thing about it was you either knew what you were drawing or you didn't. What came from your brain to your hand was impossible to fake.
It was impossible to hide intelligence/ talent/ experience/ skill. Thats what gave leverage to the title of Architect and computers have a lot to do with how the IRS and corporations are sucking the LIFE out of practice.
Piggy - your frustration rises from jealousy. It's obvious that you are obsolete and wish you really were a boomer so you could have lived your life "drafting by hand" and suckin down a pension. I am officially dumber from having read your posts. Please send me $500 for my lost time. Get out of your own head, look in the mirror and do something. I admire people like blue goose, archie and others who have spent their lives building a business. They have suceeded in doing what few will even try. They are the real visionaries. Dreamkillers like yourself are a dime a dozen.
Cad monkeys aren't going away any time soon. It's probably time firms start to realize this and stop hiring people with March, Barch or the 4 year degree types to do this kind of work. Hire high school grads for this type of cad monkey work for $25000-$35000 per year. Hire those with degrees and obviously train them up after school has finished with them to be PM's while they learn how to handle real architectural projects.
wurdeen freo,
I think that is part of the problem. These guys are business owners. I can tell you that I did not get a degree in business. Did you? I can tell you that none of my employers have trained me to be a business owner. Were you? I am not geared to run a business. If I wanted that, I'd have gotten another degree. Having watched my previous employer, I can tell you what archie and bluegoose do. 25-35% architecture. the rest of their time is spent doing payroll, paying insurance, contracts, updating computer tech for their firms, hiring/firing, marketing, etc so on and so forth. That isn't architecture, it's business and no one with the 4 year, 5 year or masters degree was educated for this role and not everyone is cut out for it. If you are not cut out for this, your "role" in architecture is slim pickens. JMHO.
OTF: "I did not get a degree in business. Did you? I can tell you that none of my employers have trained me to be a business owner. Were you? I am not geared to run a business. If I wanted that, I'd have gotten another degree."
Respectfully, isn't this really just another way of saying "I want to have my cake and eat it too" We complain bitterly here about poor pay, yet we are unwilling to do what's needed to improve our own economics. What's wrong with this picture?
IMHO, those in the profession who ARE making an effort to learn about "business" are going to eat everybody else's lunch in the coming quarter century.
on the fence said, "Cad monkeys aren't going away any time soon. It's probably time firms start to realize this and stop hiring people with March, Barch or the 4 year degree types to do this kind of work. Hire high school grads for this type of cad monkey work for $25000-$35000 per year. Hire those with degrees and obviously train them up after school has finished with them to be PM's while they learn how to handle real architectural projects."
I agree. The title "drafter" should be appropriately leveraged again. Or CAD monkey whatever but not Architect.
And while their at it the profession has got to stop the duplicitous practice (but technically totally legal) of representing non licensed individuals as Architects (Arch grads or not)! Seriously A201 specifically allows for this legal loophole! bastards.
Oh and wurdan freo you are obviously a terrible businessman...we didn't agree to your terms up front nor do we have a contract. You are lucky I don't charge ingrates like you up front.
BlueGoose said, "ON the fence - actually, I do have an MBA."
surprise, surprise. (not that thats necessarily something to disparage...just helps explain a lot)
Actually I am VERY jealous of your MBA. If I knew how to navigate the endless IRS codes perhaps the market might be free for me (on second thought...NOT...I'd need about 30 years to figure it out and by then they will surely have only changed it and made it more complex through all this HOPE and CHANGE).
So right now I am adding MBA to my list of what to do in this down time. First choice is still Structural Engineering, then law school, then MBA, then medicine. Anything but CAD monkey/ glorified IT technician bending over and taking it in the shorts for all the AIA baby boomer sell outs.
you would be halfway done with your MBA if not further if you wouldnt be posting on archinect as much as you have been
but yes, its no surprise to anyone (or it shouldnt be anyway) that architects are not trained in business, and this is a major reason so many firms have flawed business plans. I daresay this is a bigger flaw than the big bad AIA
and there is a very good reason most architects do not have their MBA also. The work getting your MBA is very different than getting your B.Arch or M.Arch. And most architects would not be able to do it, just like most MBA students wouldnt be able to go through Arch school.
But if you want to run a firm, and you dont learn the business side of things, then you have absolutely no one to blame but yourself.
not the AIA, not the baby boomers
but then again, architects have never been accused of NOT demanding their cake and eating it too, and then blaming everyone else when they dont get it
Maybe that's just the problem. Architects were not trained to run businesses and they either learn it along the way by doing, or they remain under the employ of architects who have turned business managers...
I think: architects as creatives have something to contribute to a business... ideas people. creative thinking... that is a strength that alot of business schools these days are trying to develop in business graduates, they are actually borrowing from architectural education... they are talking about *design*...
I think part of the problem is: architectural communities remain a little bit too silo-ed off from other professionals. Think about it: architecture school, and architectural work, the friends you keep day to day... architects tend to hang out with, network with, and socialize with *other architects*... We partner with other architects to start businesses, we connect with other architects when trying to find jobs... Architecture communities are *small*, they are almost an isolated subculture within our cities...
What we should really be doing is: networking with other professionals in other fields... (I'm sure most savy business owners already do this, as a part of their marketing and pr efforts...) However, I think one shortcoming of our industry is our social skills... I wrote about this in another thread, but I think generally, architects are creatives but do not tend to be high charisma, extroverted and business minded people... That's a bit of a generalization but, maybe we need to, as a profession, try to connect better with other professionals...
Why aren't architects partnering with MBA's and business minded professionals who are simply *better at making money than us*? Other building industry professionals seem to do this more... Say product manufacturers... Why aren't we attracting the top business talent as our business partners instead of fitting individuals who are trained primarily in design to run our businesses? In other successful business enterprises, the top managers develop their businesses by surrounding themselves with people who are *better than themselves* at a particular aspect of business... I think of Howard Schultz for example, the CEO of Starbucks who built the company from a single store... The success of the business revolved around forming a solid team of managers, operations etc. who knew a great deal about different aspects of business that Howard Schultz did... There are many architects who are successful business owners and great entrepreneurs and maybe great rainmakers bringing in the work, but this is usually something they learned on the job, it's not something we are *professionals* in... Not sure... Just throwing the question out there... Maybe architects do well enough, but what if architects were able to partner with innovators in other fields or markets, could we move beyond our traditional architectural communities and engage the broader markets, the everyday average Joe blow consumer better?
Not saying all architects are isolated, we clearly do build business relationships with clients and markets, etc. but as professionals, many of us tend to be somewhat insulated from the average consumer...
Seems to me that as designers and the ideas profession we could *own* the real estate markets, etc. instead of being service providers to developers for example (doing good work, designing great buildings which is one thing, but never driving the direction of the market)...
The problem is that the Arch schools (as determined by the professional forces of the AIA NAAB and NCARB and the ACSA) chase away higher caliber individuals and they end up in the B, Law, Eng, Medical, Dental schools.
so you are okay marmkid with not demanding and eating the cake?
pathetic. I've got to distance myself from all you hopelessly starving artist types---and quick.
you are never going to get cake if you are okay with not demanding it whether you live in a communist government or a "free" market system.
...unless you are foolish enough to believe the HOPE and CHANGE tree is bearing golden fruit and dollar bills.
bRink said, "architecture school, and architectural work, the friends you keep day to day... architects tend to hang out with, network with, and socialize with *other architects*... We partner with other architects to start businesses, we connect with other architects when trying to find jobs... Architecture communities are *small*, they are almost an isolated subculture within our cities..."
and what happens when the all the brains who do this hanging out and networking started with a much smaller brain from the get go:
the AIA (insert blowing of their own horn over...exactly...nothing...unless you count all the "social engineering" initiative and committees and website focus)
Shyeah...diversity and multiCULTuralism is going to save Architecture. As if a mudhut in Zimbabwae is something to aspire to. (well, it is more architectural than Gehry's disasters so I guess maybe its a good starting point)
"so you are okay marmkid with not demanding and eating the cake?"
when it is in reach, and all they do is sit there, unchanging, still demanding, and blaming everyone else BESIDES themselves.....then it is just whining
It's not just that someone is demanding and eating their cake
They want someone to bring it to them on a silver platter, pre-chew each bite, and feed it to you with a golden spoon
What happens a lot is not just demanding your cake and eating it too
It is whining on why you dont get things handed to you
And it is not doing anything about it besides whining and blaming everyone else
Blaming the baby boomers
Blaming the AIA
stop blaming everyone else
go fix your own problems
and what is pathetic is someone who has spent god knows how many hours on archinect blaming everyone else for his own problems
bRink said, "I think one shortcoming of our industry is our social skills... I wrote about this in another thread, but I think generally, architects are creatives but do not tend to be high charisma, extroverted and business minded people... That's a bit of a generalization but, maybe we need to, as a profession, try to connect better with other professionals..."
exactly. the complacent starving artists who can't balance a household budget because they charged the latest emo music to their credit card's are all that has been/ is filtered INTO the profession. Every year its only getting worse.
I am not demanding anything
In my career, I have a set path which i am following and working towards
I am not going to spend my days blaming all the EMOs, the baby boomers, the AIA, and everyone else under the sun when things dont go exactly how i want them to
If things dont go how i like, i will go take steps to fix it
rather than sit online and call everyone names constantly and complaining about your own situation while blaming everyone but you, why dont you go out and fix your situation?
and thank you for the assumption, but i am not a starving artist
?
not sure where that came from or why you would think that?
and, correct me if i am wrong, but wouldnt someone who is EMO, be someone who whines online annonymously all day long about his current situation blaming everyone but himself?
No marmkid in my book the definition of emo is either:
1. 90% of recent Arch School graduates
2. AIA sycophants and blind, deaf, and dumb trend followers
3. "Emo has been associated with a stereotype that includes being particularly emotional, sensitive, shy, introverted, or angst-ridden"
And, you are definitely manifesting a very emo like pattern of projection, i.e. assuming I am not doing anything about it, etc. (not that assumptions are bad in and of themselves but should be reasonable to be useful).
What led you to believe that I am not doing anything about it? Its really a rhetorical question but hey if you have a reason thats great please share.
you have a never ending list of things to do next:
get your MBA
become a structural engineer
etc
yet nothing you are planning to do has anything to do with what you whine about here, mainly the state of the architecture profession
all you talk about is leaving it, which is fine, no reason why you should stay
but yet you continue to bash the AIA, 90% of arch grads, which i am sure you know a ton of to make such broad claims, baby boomers, starving artists, and who knows what else
I assume that when someone whines and complains and blames one thing in particular over and over again (in this case, you with the AIA), and never has mentioned anything they have done to fix the situation, that they have done nothing about the situation at all, and will not
Am i wrong in that assumption?
which consist of blaming others for your own problems 99% of the time
even in this last post you bashed the AIA again
so if i am wrong in my assumption, please tell me of the steps you have taken to help fix the AIA
you have pointed out many of its flaws, and whined how they have ruined your life and profession
What have you done to help fix it?
I am assuming nothing at all, based on what you have written, which is all i have to go on
Please correct me if i am wrong
you can't fix individuals or groups of people (like the AIA) if they don't want to be fixed. They'll have to find out the hard way (when the bottom of the market keeps dropping out from underneath them) and chose to ask the right questions first.
The answers are of no value if the questions aren't sincere in the first place.
The measurement of sincerity of the original question is the fruits that the answers bore.
...for example, ask me if I think all the AIA/ NCARB questionnaires that I've been invited to give input on have been sincere...
I find it hard to believe that just because you think it cant be fixed based on you not even trying, means everything is doomed
but again, if you just assume that nothing can be changed without actually trying to change anything, and then spend all your time ranting on the internet about how they are the devil....it all sounds, dare i say, emo?
but i guess we just have to agree to disagree, because i just dont see how the AIA is this big devil who is only trying to screw everyone
I was laid off in Sept. Since then I have had three job offers. All of them offered 10% less than what I was being paid. Also I know from the friends that are still working there that they were working 50 to 55 hours every week.
I would seriously tell you guys don't accept less than what you are worth. because when the economy gets better in Archtiecture it will take you forever to regain the salary that you were getting before.
When you were making Sh** in the first place. I don't think so. Even when the economy was good Firms were only good for a cost of living raise every year, if that. it would take 3 plus years in good times to get back the salary you once made.
lanah: you seem to ascribe to 'firms' a universal and devious desire to abuse their employees financially, totally detached from the fundamental economics of professional practice. The current reality is that a) few principals get rich doing this, b) there's an oversupply of labor, c) fees are both scarce and low. While your views may be influenced by your personal situation, they are not, IMO, an accurate representation of what actually takes place in firms. Firms are under no obligation to pay you what you expect - they should pay you fairly on the basis of what they can afford and what you can deliver in productivity..
This is an interesting discussion and the take away is that architects need better pro-practice classes in school. At USC architecture you could take the courses in the R.E. development b-school. I did, and it exposed me to how the game is played.
Of the 32 people I graduated with about 10 have gone on to get an MBA. Many have chosen to stay on the development side. Their architecture education has given them an understanding of the architect's value. We need more advocates like them.
Furthermore, while I did not get an MBA, I now consider myself more as a businessman trained as an architect. That said, I only spend 30% of my time working on projects. The rest is managing, marketing, accounting, and networking with others who are not architects.
As for the cad monkey....
I have mentioned in earlier posts that DSC occasionally hires DRAFTERS from the local JC. It has been a great resource for us.
For a lot of the work that we do a fundamental drafting education is all that is needed. While occasionally there is a wall that they hit (about year five) with some cross training they can remain an INVALUABLE part of the firm.
Also, because of the way we built DSC there is an ownership route for the non-licensed / non-licenseable to take.
lanah - just for your knowledge: we're all getting killed out here on fees. we've seen almost everything being put out by larger organizations (gov't, private institutions, etc.) roughly 20% off where they were 2 years ago. and the owners are just laying out what the fee expectations are up front - even with that, we've seen people lowballing fees just to try and scrape up work.
where's that hit going to come from unless firms can find ways to do the work in less time?
right now the whole profession, imho, is teetering on the edge of a really bad death spiral. we're just slashing rates, driving down salaries, expectations, etc. to the point that, yes, it's going to take several years to recover back to the 2006 levels. we will, but it's really going to be a lost decade for this profession...
Wow, Outed... but, that is the reality - in the end, the firms are only reacting to what their clients are demanding - and they're in the drivers seat. In a way, it's almost better that I'm currently laid off, and thus not having to deal with that tug-of-war you're under.
firms need to sell better... build a brand and value proposition that justifies the fee instead of competing on primarily on fee...
regarding salary negotiation... in this economy, i might be willing to take a little bit of a salary hit at the beginning, with the expectation that when the economy turns around and once i have proven my value to the office, my salary would be adjusted.
Distrubing Trend in Job Searches
A 35 year old professional Architect with License should be making a hell of a lot more than $50,000. I made more than that when I was 35 over 20 years ago. I'm a small firm with no employees at the moment but when I did have staff they made more than that. Its terrible what other Architects are doing, but maybe thats why they've been getting the work, bargain basement fees.
Bluegoose-- Isn't Piggy amusing? His name is so appropriate- poor kid, he grew up having everything handed to him (by baby boomers, no doubt) and has such a nicely developed sense of entitlement! Give him a little statuette for showing up!! Now that he actually has to compete with a boomer, he is devastated. Oooh, bad boomer- you worked your entire life and saved for your retirement, and now you are using heat in your retirement home that should be mine!!
Too bad he will never realize that all his fears will come true- he obviously does not have the attitude or leadership required to develop his own successful firm, perhaps even a successful career. Poor boy. Maybe some baby boomer in his family will pass away and leave him an inheritance.
So congrats to you for building a successful firm. It is TONS of hard work, and this last year has been more difficult than any in my 30 plus years in the business, so I feel for you.
And Piggy,there are others out there besides Blue Goose who provide great opportunities for their staff. Many more of them than you think. My firm pays for full health, dental and eye insurance for all employees, and always has. We pay for families if they need it as well. (some are covered by spouse's employment) It is the best coverage we can buy in our area, and costs us about $12,000 a year for a family. Oh, we provide full short term and long term disability insurance, life insurance, a very generous 401K plan with a 10% yearly contribution with no match required, and every employee got an end of the year bonus, and a raise as of January 1.
Unfortunately, you would not last here, I can tell. We hire the best of the best, and they understand what we need to do to keep the firm going. It is not easy, and everyone here works smart and works hard. My staff is really good, and they help to make the firm profitable enough to fund all those perks. We have had no layoffs ever, and actually hired new staff last year.
Urbanist said, "this is the only way to do things because it's the way it's always been done. Burn dissidents at the stake for heresy."
I totally agree. You'd think the profession would be a little more grown up than the average mentality endured in high school at the hands of the "popular crowd"...
On the fence said, "Which is to say we need to take back our schools. What they offer us today is almost to the point of worthlessness. "
Too right mate. Too many schools graduating too many starving artists who can't balance a checkbook. MAKE IT competetive again and attract the smartie pants back to the profession---weed out the dummies. But that would first and foremost require the sacrifice of the contemporary religious worship of ****gasp**** equality....(oh no now I am going to hell, whatever shall I do) Call me a heretic if you like but THIS IS what is at the ROOT of the problem. Stop scaring intelligent people away from the schools and into MBA, LAW, ENG, Medicine....Start attracting them. STOP attracting and accomodating the riff raff and half assers and START kicking them out (gee I think 1/2 of all the faculty wouldbe out of a job and back diggin ditches and doing something useful to society for a change)...the number of schools would go from 121? right now to 60...might be about right...guarantee because of the laws of supply and demand instead of making 35K with an MArch (and that was in the good times) you'd make double that or 70K practically OVERNIGHT.
THis is why I am so happy to have heard of a school thats probably going down...Cornell? was it...Please oh please make 1/2 of them them go away.
In this sense I (almost) can't believe they recently accredited an inner city school like the University of Hartford...ridiculous. Gee thats REALLY going to increase the competitiveness of the MArch in the marketplace in the future...shyeah right.
archie when all else fails it has always been comforting to me to know that the baby boomers will be ten feet under and rotting in the not too distant future.
My parents were definitely not the typical baby boomers...had five children (no abortions) and sacrificed their entire lives so that my siblings and I could get off to a better start than they did. Father worked like an animal and mother stayed home at all costs.
It is sad that they were the exception. The rest of you have generally been spoiled brats from cradle to grave. You frittered away your teen years partying and smokin' dope and giving a place for an edless litany of socially acceptable vices to take root...and now 20 years from a certain exit from this planet the baby boomers are generally stealing the next generation blind and will leave them living a life that is of the quality of probably the turn of the century before last.
Perhaps even more fundamental than that, whats worse is nobody has a deep sense of connectedness anymore, truly. The baby boomers have generally ascribed to the principle of "I'm going to get my piece before its all gone if I have to beg, borrow, steal, or lie"
Then they have the nerve to pretend to be interested in sustainability.
hypocrites.
archie you MAY be the exception to this rule...I don't know enough about you or if what you say is true.
If true in the sense in which you say it, and you aren't engaging in the ubiquitous contemporary practice of semantical legalese, then you know what that is pretty awesome but your firm IS the exception and thats wonderful but not what hardly any person with 5-15 years experience should expect...like maybe less than 5% of firms I don't know but its definitely unique.
ignoring the question that comes to mind with what your parents not having an abortion has to do with anything related here......
"Then they have the nerve to pretend to be interested in sustainability."
I am not sure why you now think that baby boomers are not interested in sustainability?
?
one might wonder about the nerve you have pretending to care about changing the architecture profession, yet seem to basically just rant and rail against the AIA and baby boomers on archinect
I said, "You'd think the profession would be a little more grown up than the average mentality endured in high school at the hands of the "popular crowd"..."
archie said, "Isn't Piggy amusing? His name is so appropriate- poor kid, he grew up having everything handed to him (by baby boomers, no doubt) and has such a nicely developed sense of entitlement! Give him a little statuette for showing up!! Now that he actually has to compete with a boomer, he is devastated. Oooh, bad boomer- you worked your entire life and saved for your retirement, and now you are using heat in your retirement home that should be mine!!"
and,
"Unfortunately, you would not last here, I can tell. We hire the best of the best, and they understand what we need to do to keep the firm going. It is not easy, and everyone here works smart and works hard. My staff is really good, and they help to make the firm profitable enough to fund all those perks. We have had no layoffs ever, and actually hired new staff last year."
Typical "my firm is bigger than your" corporate mentality ego trip that has led to Wal Marts and Taco Bells (and lack of quality of life for the average person that comes along with them).
Take your ego trip false pride and use it on someone else. Congrats on being a tool who never grew up past the sixth grade. The baby boomers were born 27 years before I was and have royally screwed my generation out of the opportunities to start firms (shyeah...free market my ass) so faulting me for this is totally retardiculous archie.
The market was a lot freer until your IRS accomodating arses strangled it out of existence.
Now you print money (legal counterfeiting), spread it around, and act like you are actually adding value to the same dollar bills your grandparents first made valuable---when in fact you are only playing a dangerous shell game of hyperinflation. The baby boomers are thieves and charlatans in the first degree.
marmkid said, "ignoring the question that comes to mind with what your parents not having an abortion has to do with anything related here......"
no it is totally germane.
I think it was in this thread that I stated earlier that approx. half the problem with the middle class dissappearing is due to the demographic vacuum created by the baby boomers.
Conservative, authoritative, expert numbers are 50 MILLION abortions since Roe V Wade in 1973 (by the baby boomers mostly).
Also not brought into the base of what used to be a population curve shaped like a pyramid are the tens if not hundred of millions of authentic American children the aborted would have had as well.
i wish we had more families like yours, Piggy
clearly the best of the baby boomer generation (with the rest being the devil), and clearly the best of today's generation (with the rest being AIA idiots)
I would like to comment on a few of these entries, if no one minds - the range is clearly full-spread.
As to what 'distant' said on the 10th - "more job openings were available than qualified candidates. Many job seekers abused firms then ... rightly or wrongly, this is the flip side of that equation."
I've heard this comparison from several on this discussion board, and it frankly irritates me to read them. Yes, there was that 'glorious' time when job seekers actually had the upper hand, and could ask (for the first time in my memory) for what they were worth. So, job seekers are suddenly supposed to feel sorry for the employer because they had to weed out a few a-holes at recruitment time? Here's the big difference between the claims of job-seeker 'abuse,' and what's happening now - the problem of having TOO MUCH WORK trumps NOT ENOUGH work to go around.
I was on the hiring end during the recent 'a-hole' period, and yes, it was rather bothersome that a few candidates were kinda cocky but, at the end of the day, I knew our firm would continue to prosper and that my future had employment in it. We always found good quality people, albeit suffering through the awful thing of weeding out the bad apples. Please.
On the other hand, 'distant' you seem to be the rare breed that considers what the rest of us are going thorough and would rather not take advantage of the situation (i.e. hire cheap/free help) as the stories here illustrate other employers have done.
The fact is, as you say - "With the shift in the economy, the pendulum has swung from a "seller's market" to a "buyer's market" -- that's the reality." You're right, this IS the reality.
This profession is set up for the pitfalls and spikes inherent to the general marketplace. Our product is not a 'necessity' so, when bad times hit, the luxuries get tossed aside. Architecture is a luxury. Simple. This profession isn't taken seriously enough (like the legal or medical fields) so, it gets shelved when times are tough. Ironically I also have doctor and lawyer friends who are hurting badly in this recession - even THEY aren't immune to this downturn.
Piggy, your bitterness is morbidly entertaining, and I do feel your pain. You seem to have a head on your shoulders, and getting kicked around like we have, can make even the most optimistic of us turn sour. I hope that you don't quit. A job recruiter recently told me to get 'another income source' if I wanted to continue in this field. At first I was shocked, this - coming from a recruiter who's job it was to place me in architecture work. This advice sat with me a while, and I realized that she was right. If I want to continue working in this profession, I'd better have other sources of income as well, so as to weather these types of storms. I know how much that sounds sucky, but it's the truth. Even the best of us get laid off, they're no guarantees. Brink is correct - this profession is cyclical - it's how one can survive the bottom part of the cycle that matters as much as anything else.
Urbanist has the right idea - innovating a new paradigm for ourselves, and the industry, is the future. As Strawbeary says, spend time thinking about 'other' ways to be a designer rather than the traditional path (i.e. full time employ) is a good idea. I think now is the time that someone will 'risk' new models - and putting 'skin' in the game is definitely part of it.
roobqt thank God my wife is a nurse. (I often encourage her to not be so nice to many of her 50-65 year old patients...if you know what I mean *wink* *wink*)
Perhaps I'm the type of guy though that actually DOES plan for the worst and hopes for the best, i.e. in this case what would I SAY if I didn't have source of income, the typical amount of debt young people do these days, my two kids, a mortgage payment AND I was sold a rotten apple by a duplicitous profession.
I'm pretty sure I'm saying what a lot of people are thinking but have been conditioned by the system NOT to think for long or never, ever say outloud, "political correctness" (ommissions of truth) be damned. By the time they've been trained not to think such things they are as dumb and useful to society as a brick.
So thank god I can survive financially for as long as I want...I saw the damn warning signs and prepared myself for layoff (hell I have a years worth of food in my basement) and I have zero credit card debt.
Also, roobqt I am glad that you "get" the intention that some of these extremes I go to are intended to be entertaining. At the very least it gets the gears in people's brains working after getting all rusty in the "good" times. I am glad times are "bad" in fact I hope they get 100x worse before they get better. I hope they get so bad that the baby boomers printing of dollar bills amounts to nothing Zimbabwae- Argentina style and then perhaps we'll go back to the gold standard and we can draft by hand again and then we'll have some real fun!
".....and we can draft by hand again and then we'll have some real fun!"
i do agree with you here
i miss drafting by hand!
I'm not going to hold my breath until that comes back though, unfortunately
I'm totally with you marmkid *sigh*
The awesome thing about it was you either knew what you were drawing or you didn't. What came from your brain to your hand was impossible to fake.
It was impossible to hide intelligence/ talent/ experience/ skill. Thats what gave leverage to the title of Architect and computers have a lot to do with how the IRS and corporations are sucking the LIFE out of practice.
Piggy - your frustration rises from jealousy. It's obvious that you are obsolete and wish you really were a boomer so you could have lived your life "drafting by hand" and suckin down a pension. I am officially dumber from having read your posts. Please send me $500 for my lost time. Get out of your own head, look in the mirror and do something. I admire people like blue goose, archie and others who have spent their lives building a business. They have suceeded in doing what few will even try. They are the real visionaries. Dreamkillers like yourself are a dime a dozen.
Cad monkeys aren't going away any time soon. It's probably time firms start to realize this and stop hiring people with March, Barch or the 4 year degree types to do this kind of work. Hire high school grads for this type of cad monkey work for $25000-$35000 per year. Hire those with degrees and obviously train them up after school has finished with them to be PM's while they learn how to handle real architectural projects.
wurdeen freo,
I think that is part of the problem. These guys are business owners. I can tell you that I did not get a degree in business. Did you? I can tell you that none of my employers have trained me to be a business owner. Were you? I am not geared to run a business. If I wanted that, I'd have gotten another degree. Having watched my previous employer, I can tell you what archie and bluegoose do. 25-35% architecture. the rest of their time is spent doing payroll, paying insurance, contracts, updating computer tech for their firms, hiring/firing, marketing, etc so on and so forth. That isn't architecture, it's business and no one with the 4 year, 5 year or masters degree was educated for this role and not everyone is cut out for it. If you are not cut out for this, your "role" in architecture is slim pickens. JMHO.
OTF: "I did not get a degree in business. Did you? I can tell you that none of my employers have trained me to be a business owner. Were you? I am not geared to run a business. If I wanted that, I'd have gotten another degree."
Respectfully, isn't this really just another way of saying "I want to have my cake and eat it too" We complain bitterly here about poor pay, yet we are unwilling to do what's needed to improve our own economics. What's wrong with this picture?
IMHO, those in the profession who ARE making an effort to learn about "business" are going to eat everybody else's lunch in the coming quarter century.
on the fence said, "Cad monkeys aren't going away any time soon. It's probably time firms start to realize this and stop hiring people with March, Barch or the 4 year degree types to do this kind of work. Hire high school grads for this type of cad monkey work for $25000-$35000 per year. Hire those with degrees and obviously train them up after school has finished with them to be PM's while they learn how to handle real architectural projects."
I agree. The title "drafter" should be appropriately leveraged again. Or CAD monkey whatever but not Architect.
And while their at it the profession has got to stop the duplicitous practice (but technically totally legal) of representing non licensed individuals as Architects (Arch grads or not)! Seriously A201 specifically allows for this legal loophole! bastards.
ON the fence - actually, I do have an MBA.
Oh and wurdan freo you are obviously a terrible businessman...we didn't agree to your terms up front nor do we have a contract. You are lucky I don't charge ingrates like you up front.
BlueGoose said, "ON the fence - actually, I do have an MBA."
surprise, surprise. (not that thats necessarily something to disparage...just helps explain a lot)
Actually I am VERY jealous of your MBA. If I knew how to navigate the endless IRS codes perhaps the market might be free for me (on second thought...NOT...I'd need about 30 years to figure it out and by then they will surely have only changed it and made it more complex through all this HOPE and CHANGE).
So right now I am adding MBA to my list of what to do in this down time. First choice is still Structural Engineering, then law school, then MBA, then medicine. Anything but CAD monkey/ glorified IT technician bending over and taking it in the shorts for all the AIA baby boomer sell outs.
you would be halfway done with your MBA if not further if you wouldnt be posting on archinect as much as you have been
but yes, its no surprise to anyone (or it shouldnt be anyway) that architects are not trained in business, and this is a major reason so many firms have flawed business plans. I daresay this is a bigger flaw than the big bad AIA
and there is a very good reason most architects do not have their MBA also. The work getting your MBA is very different than getting your B.Arch or M.Arch. And most architects would not be able to do it, just like most MBA students wouldnt be able to go through Arch school.
But if you want to run a firm, and you dont learn the business side of things, then you have absolutely no one to blame but yourself.
not the AIA, not the baby boomers
but then again, architects have never been accused of NOT demanding their cake and eating it too, and then blaming everyone else when they dont get it
Maybe that's just the problem. Architects were not trained to run businesses and they either learn it along the way by doing, or they remain under the employ of architects who have turned business managers...
I think: architects as creatives have something to contribute to a business... ideas people. creative thinking... that is a strength that alot of business schools these days are trying to develop in business graduates, they are actually borrowing from architectural education... they are talking about *design*...
I think part of the problem is: architectural communities remain a little bit too silo-ed off from other professionals. Think about it: architecture school, and architectural work, the friends you keep day to day... architects tend to hang out with, network with, and socialize with *other architects*... We partner with other architects to start businesses, we connect with other architects when trying to find jobs... Architecture communities are *small*, they are almost an isolated subculture within our cities...
What we should really be doing is: networking with other professionals in other fields... (I'm sure most savy business owners already do this, as a part of their marketing and pr efforts...) However, I think one shortcoming of our industry is our social skills... I wrote about this in another thread, but I think generally, architects are creatives but do not tend to be high charisma, extroverted and business minded people... That's a bit of a generalization but, maybe we need to, as a profession, try to connect better with other professionals...
Why aren't architects partnering with MBA's and business minded professionals who are simply *better at making money than us*? Other building industry professionals seem to do this more... Say product manufacturers... Why aren't we attracting the top business talent as our business partners instead of fitting individuals who are trained primarily in design to run our businesses? In other successful business enterprises, the top managers develop their businesses by surrounding themselves with people who are *better than themselves* at a particular aspect of business... I think of Howard Schultz for example, the CEO of Starbucks who built the company from a single store... The success of the business revolved around forming a solid team of managers, operations etc. who knew a great deal about different aspects of business that Howard Schultz did... There are many architects who are successful business owners and great entrepreneurs and maybe great rainmakers bringing in the work, but this is usually something they learned on the job, it's not something we are *professionals* in... Not sure... Just throwing the question out there... Maybe architects do well enough, but what if architects were able to partner with innovators in other fields or markets, could we move beyond our traditional architectural communities and engage the broader markets, the everyday average Joe blow consumer better?
Not saying all architects are isolated, we clearly do build business relationships with clients and markets, etc. but as professionals, many of us tend to be somewhat insulated from the average consumer...
Seems to me that as designers and the ideas profession we could *own* the real estate markets, etc. instead of being service providers to developers for example (doing good work, designing great buildings which is one thing, but never driving the direction of the market)...
The problem is that the Arch schools (as determined by the professional forces of the AIA NAAB and NCARB and the ACSA) chase away higher caliber individuals and they end up in the B, Law, Eng, Medical, Dental schools.
so you are okay marmkid with not demanding and eating the cake?
pathetic. I've got to distance myself from all you hopelessly starving artist types---and quick.
you are never going to get cake if you are okay with not demanding it whether you live in a communist government or a "free" market system.
...unless you are foolish enough to believe the HOPE and CHANGE tree is bearing golden fruit and dollar bills.
Bluegoose, good for you regarding the MBA... We need more business educated architects in our profession!
bRink said, "architecture school, and architectural work, the friends you keep day to day... architects tend to hang out with, network with, and socialize with *other architects*... We partner with other architects to start businesses, we connect with other architects when trying to find jobs... Architecture communities are *small*, they are almost an isolated subculture within our cities..."
and what happens when the all the brains who do this hanging out and networking started with a much smaller brain from the get go:
the AIA (insert blowing of their own horn over...exactly...nothing...unless you count all the "social engineering" initiative and committees and website focus)
Shyeah...diversity and multiCULTuralism is going to save Architecture. As if a mudhut in Zimbabwae is something to aspire to. (well, it is more architectural than Gehry's disasters so I guess maybe its a good starting point)
"so you are okay marmkid with not demanding and eating the cake?"
when it is in reach, and all they do is sit there, unchanging, still demanding, and blaming everyone else BESIDES themselves.....then it is just whining
It's not just that someone is demanding and eating their cake
They want someone to bring it to them on a silver platter, pre-chew each bite, and feed it to you with a golden spoon
What happens a lot is not just demanding your cake and eating it too
It is whining on why you dont get things handed to you
And it is not doing anything about it besides whining and blaming everyone else
Blaming the baby boomers
Blaming the AIA
stop blaming everyone else
go fix your own problems
and what is pathetic is someone who has spent god knows how many hours on archinect blaming everyone else for his own problems
and what a big surprise Piggy
in the time it took me to write one post, you wrote YET ANOTHER post whining about the AIA
bRink said, "I think one shortcoming of our industry is our social skills... I wrote about this in another thread, but I think generally, architects are creatives but do not tend to be high charisma, extroverted and business minded people... That's a bit of a generalization but, maybe we need to, as a profession, try to connect better with other professionals..."
exactly. the complacent starving artists who can't balance a household budget because they charged the latest emo music to their credit card's are all that has been/ is filtered INTO the profession. Every year its only getting worse.
oh yes, i forgot about blaming all the EMOs also
mamrkid: Are you demanding something? God forbid you and all the starving artists get a spine (and an intellect to give it intelligent directives).
I am not demanding anything
In my career, I have a set path which i am following and working towards
I am not going to spend my days blaming all the EMOs, the baby boomers, the AIA, and everyone else under the sun when things dont go exactly how i want them to
If things dont go how i like, i will go take steps to fix it
rather than sit online and call everyone names constantly and complaining about your own situation while blaming everyone but you, why dont you go out and fix your situation?
and thank you for the assumption, but i am not a starving artist
?
not sure where that came from or why you would think that?
and, correct me if i am wrong, but wouldnt someone who is EMO, be someone who whines online annonymously all day long about his current situation blaming everyone but himself?
No marmkid in my book the definition of emo is either:
1. 90% of recent Arch School graduates
2. AIA sycophants and blind, deaf, and dumb trend followers
3. "Emo has been associated with a stereotype that includes being particularly emotional, sensitive, shy, introverted, or angst-ridden"
And, you are definitely manifesting a very emo like pattern of projection, i.e. assuming I am not doing anything about it, etc. (not that assumptions are bad in and of themselves but should be reasonable to be useful).
What led you to believe that I am not doing anything about it? Its really a rhetorical question but hey if you have a reason thats great please share.
you have a never ending list of things to do next:
get your MBA
become a structural engineer
etc
yet nothing you are planning to do has anything to do with what you whine about here, mainly the state of the architecture profession
all you talk about is leaving it, which is fine, no reason why you should stay
but yet you continue to bash the AIA, 90% of arch grads, which i am sure you know a ton of to make such broad claims, baby boomers, starving artists, and who knows what else
I assume that when someone whines and complains and blames one thing in particular over and over again (in this case, you with the AIA), and never has mentioned anything they have done to fix the situation, that they have done nothing about the situation at all, and will not
Am i wrong in that assumption?
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
If I wasn't doing anything on my part I would have just sold my soul to the AIA already and joined.
Yes, you are not right in your assumption.
you said, "yet nothing you are planning to do has anything to do with what you whine about here, mainly the state of the architecture profession"
No, you are not avoiding Cognitive Dissonance as you are most likely basing your assumptions on irrational, unreasonable emo-tions.
I am basing all my assumptions on your posts here
which consist of blaming others for your own problems 99% of the time
even in this last post you bashed the AIA again
so if i am wrong in my assumption, please tell me of the steps you have taken to help fix the AIA
you have pointed out many of its flaws, and whined how they have ruined your life and profession
What have you done to help fix it?
I am assuming nothing at all, based on what you have written, which is all i have to go on
Please correct me if i am wrong
you can't fix individuals or groups of people (like the AIA) if they don't want to be fixed. They'll have to find out the hard way (when the bottom of the market keeps dropping out from underneath them) and chose to ask the right questions first.
The answers are of no value if the questions aren't sincere in the first place.
The measurement of sincerity of the original question is the fruits that the answers bore.
...for example, ask me if I think all the AIA/ NCARB questionnaires that I've been invited to give input on have been sincere...
wow, that is such a defeatist attitude though
I find it hard to believe that just because you think it cant be fixed based on you not even trying, means everything is doomed
but again, if you just assume that nothing can be changed without actually trying to change anything, and then spend all your time ranting on the internet about how they are the devil....it all sounds, dare i say, emo?
but i guess we just have to agree to disagree, because i just dont see how the AIA is this big devil who is only trying to screw everyone
give piggy a break he hasn't slept for 12 days straight.
I was laid off in Sept. Since then I have had three job offers. All of them offered 10% less than what I was being paid. Also I know from the friends that are still working there that they were working 50 to 55 hours every week.
I would seriously tell you guys don't accept less than what you are worth. because when the economy gets better in Archtiecture it will take you forever to regain the salary that you were getting before.
lanah, that simply sounds absurd. Taking a 10% hit during a crippling recession seems like a reasonable course of action to me.
50-55 hours a week? oh nooooo's.
When you were making Sh** in the first place. I don't think so. Even when the economy was good Firms were only good for a cost of living raise every year, if that. it would take 3 plus years in good times to get back the salary you once made.
lanah: you seem to ascribe to 'firms' a universal and devious desire to abuse their employees financially, totally detached from the fundamental economics of professional practice. The current reality is that a) few principals get rich doing this, b) there's an oversupply of labor, c) fees are both scarce and low. While your views may be influenced by your personal situation, they are not, IMO, an accurate representation of what actually takes place in firms. Firms are under no obligation to pay you what you expect - they should pay you fairly on the basis of what they can afford and what you can deliver in productivity..
This is an interesting discussion and the take away is that architects need better pro-practice classes in school. At USC architecture you could take the courses in the R.E. development b-school. I did, and it exposed me to how the game is played.
Of the 32 people I graduated with about 10 have gone on to get an MBA. Many have chosen to stay on the development side. Their architecture education has given them an understanding of the architect's value. We need more advocates like them.
Furthermore, while I did not get an MBA, I now consider myself more as a businessman trained as an architect. That said, I only spend 30% of my time working on projects. The rest is managing, marketing, accounting, and networking with others who are not architects.
As for the cad monkey....
I have mentioned in earlier posts that DSC occasionally hires DRAFTERS from the local JC. It has been a great resource for us.
For a lot of the work that we do a fundamental drafting education is all that is needed. While occasionally there is a wall that they hit (about year five) with some cross training they can remain an INVALUABLE part of the firm.
Also, because of the way we built DSC there is an ownership route for the non-licensed / non-licenseable to take.
lanah - just for your knowledge: we're all getting killed out here on fees. we've seen almost everything being put out by larger organizations (gov't, private institutions, etc.) roughly 20% off where they were 2 years ago. and the owners are just laying out what the fee expectations are up front - even with that, we've seen people lowballing fees just to try and scrape up work.
where's that hit going to come from unless firms can find ways to do the work in less time?
right now the whole profession, imho, is teetering on the edge of a really bad death spiral. we're just slashing rates, driving down salaries, expectations, etc. to the point that, yes, it's going to take several years to recover back to the 2006 levels. we will, but it's really going to be a lost decade for this profession...
and now for the cheery news...
Wow, Outed... but, that is the reality - in the end, the firms are only reacting to what their clients are demanding - and they're in the drivers seat. In a way, it's almost better that I'm currently laid off, and thus not having to deal with that tug-of-war you're under.
firms need to sell better... build a brand and value proposition that justifies the fee instead of competing on primarily on fee...
regarding salary negotiation... in this economy, i might be willing to take a little bit of a salary hit at the beginning, with the expectation that when the economy turns around and once i have proven my value to the office, my salary would be adjusted.
i think I'm gonna puke
lanah, is that U of Maryland, or Michigan?
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