doggie - absolutely nothing personal (because others have certainly brought up the idea of a union before), but the day there is a union for architectural employees (never mind how difficult it would be to organize), is the day i leave the profession. of all the other stuff i have to deal with just trying to keep the doors open, a union would be the worst thing imaginable. it will absolutely kill small firms, if they don't just outright skirt it.
unionization won't cure the volatility of the profession which EVERYONE is facing. figure out how to lobby for banking reform - that's what will help right the ship faster.
outed....banking reform, now that's a novel concept! :)
In all seriousness, I have to agree. I've been approached by clients in the "idea" stage, a.k.a. "project conception" phase...only to get a call from them saying "no loans, no dice, no contract, we'll call you when this turns around."
this industry need to be saved before a union would make any sense.
it would be logical to protect the worker of a "striving" industry, but it would be pointless to protect an industry that the people in it continue to destroy their own livelihood.
the point u don't seemed to get is that this industry would require a much larger transformation to save themselves. a union at this point would be as useless as wiping your ass before taking a shit.
in short, if the firms go down, there will be no labor that require protecting.
to be blunt, why didn't u walk away or refuse to work through the holidays when asked to by ur unreasonable boss? a perfect opportunity to "protect" yourself from exploitation. u do not need a union to take a stand. and if every employee start doing that, perhaps we are going somewhere.
"Not trying to save the industry." is precisely what a selfish professional would address his/her own organization or livelihood.
Ok I think this union discussion is good but a Union is not necessarily the answer, the AIA can serve that role if it had the right leaders and pressure from us. We need to get the AIA and ALA working together to make every state require an architect’s stamp on any structure occupied by the general public, we also need to get the exclusive right to design homes so that we can make them safer and more energy efficient, we also need a system to defrock those amongst us who practice architecture in an unprofessional or reckless way. Once we have that via AIA, a Union of Architects or a national movement to lobby state lawmakers we will be far better off.
Engineers and shabby home builders are stealing our business. School classroom trailers and the like are being designed by engineers that work should be on our desk.
But we also need to revamp the education system and internship process and bring back hands on work in construction and or some other kind of fabrication so the future designers are aware of and can make best use of contemporary manufacturing processes materials and other innovative systems. Architects have been behind the times in terms of CNC, Laser cut, plug and play, and other automated fabrication systems and as a result we have less influence on more of the built world. We should be able to design a house in the computer show a 3D model to the client they cut a check we hit send and robots start cutting the plywood and a factory starts assembling the kit of parts, this is possible and the results can yield interesting design if we know how to work with the fabricating systems in our country. An example to look at are folding bleachers and other portable stadium seating, those companies are capable of doing what a truly modern design practice should have been doing ten years ago.
Be an Architect but be a Designer first and design everything that you can.
AIA, we gave them a chance to reform the industry. All they have done was pushing BIM for Autodesk and LEED down everyones throat. They have never ever focused on the well been of the little people that works in the industry.
Like I said maybe the term is not "union," it could be guild, associations or organization. It has to be an organization that governs the ethical behavior of firms and not letting them exploit those that works in the field. As a note their were those that took a few hours of during last years Thanksgiving and Christmas, they were first to be let go, the excuse was "there was just not enough billable hours."
AIA didn't stop the governments abuse of design-build process and competitions. They do not even bother to paid those that lost out in the design competition process. What is even worse is after a job gets awarded, they can cancel a job with out any reason as to there is not sufficient funding and not even get penalized for it. Where is AIA in all these, no where. They were busy helping Autodesk and LEED pebbling the product to the governments.
I have given up on AIA and have not intention to be it's member in the coming years. They are like someone said before an old fart club, a tiger with no teeth. And what is with the FAIA and Associate AIA, class discrimination or segregation, no, it's milking for more money.
I for one say, it's now or never to reform. Protect those that works in it as the primary objective. If companies want to send their work out so be it, as long as it is not money from the tax dollars. We would not stand for a sweat shop in other countries, than we should not stand for one right here in our living room.
First, we are not accessible to the public, very few people actually hire architects in their life. Sure they work in buildings designed by us, but hardly any directly deal with us as professionals. This makes us a mystery, and as such people are left to think of all architects as dealers in luxury: Frank Gehrys, Frank Lloyd Wrights, or characters from movies. We don't command the respect that doctors and lawyers do because we are not considered necessary. In addition, because people don't understand us, they can't understand why we add value to projects.
Second, we as an industry only have a large fee long term billing model. We don't offer quick small fee services, and as such unlike doctors and lawyers, people can't "try out" a new architect before giving us a big contract. The few small fee services that architects provide could be provided by any other building profession and not a licensed architect and since the public has no idea why we charge so much they rightfully go with other professionals to perform these small jobs.
I agree, s.selophane, and have often thought the same thing myself... where are regular our small fee services? and you're right, most people don't understand the value of an architect in a project.
I was reading an old ACSA article and I thought this was a very appropriate quote - even though he was talking about diversity in the profession - I think it applies to the profession as a whole, not just the aspect of diversity:
"To put things into perspective, in 1968, civil rights leader Whitney Young was invited to address the AIA. Young chided those present with
these words,
”...as a profession, you are not a profession that has distinguished itself by your social and civic contributions to the cause of
civil rights, and I am sure this has not come to you as any shock. You are most distinguished by your thunderous silence and your complete irrelevance.”
Sorry, fellas ... all this AIA bashing and debate about unionization isn't going to get you where you want to go. As a profession, we're so diverse, splintered and independent that we're virtually ungovernable.
Everybody wants to blame the AIA, or the schools, or "management" or "the old farts" for all of our ills as a profession. While venting all that anger may be fun, it isn't that simple.
"In a 2007 interview with the Boston Business Journal, firm founder Lenord Cubellis said he built his namesake design firm by not straying from the idea that architects must design buildings that please their clients, not just themselves."
Well, that obviously doesn't work. diabase may have been right in the avant garde thread,
"Most of the time I see architects bending backwards to accomodate the requests and whims of clients and contractors. I think this is part of the problem... I'd argue that architects' power has been whittled down to levels that are tenous at best."
which designs mixed-use, retail, residential, corporate and academic projects for a variety of clients
That portfolio sounds like about 99% of the corporate firms out there. It's not comforting to hear about a firm doing the exact same type of work as me going under like this. You'd think that while retail & residential are drastically down the academic and corporate work could keep them afloat, all be it much smaller.
Also remember that for every firm the size of Cubellis that goes under there's dozens of smaller outfits that close the doors for good without any press.
How about that to cheer you up on a Friday morning.
s.selophane, one way clients get to "try us out" is that we typically do a schematic design initially with a flat fee for that service. Then the clients get a budget price from a contractor for what we've proposed, and if they want to move forward we move into the next phase of the project which is typically on a percentage of construction cost basis.
We also get virtually all of our work on a referral basis, so the new client has heard from someone they know that we are a good risk.
But you're right that most people have no idea what architects do and have a media-promoted fear that we are just looking for some sucker to finance our egotistical erections. No pun intended, of course;-)
liberty bell - thats a great method of compartmentalizing the fees so the owner/client has escape points, but the issue still remains that we don't offer any real small fee services; therefore we only get projects when people have a bunch of cash lying around or a guaranteed bank loan.
But if we could as a profession come up with smaller scale services like the architectural walik-through service discussed in last month's AIA newsletter, we could start building relationships with home owners and other clients who may not have the cash now but could become great resources in the future.
Those of you with a clean record and a bachelor’s degree should look into substitute teacher registration, all you need (in Illinois) is a bachelors and no criminal record, the pay is about $80-140 per day depending on where you are. Look it up in other states by locating the HR department of your local school and or regional office of education. This will probably help out since this flu season teachers will have to stay home for a period after they feel better due to the swine flu precautions being implemented nationwide.
Dose anyone have any other stop gap job ideas that would carry over into January?
I think as architect we needed to be educated with the financial loan process. These will help us fund our own projects and take the developer off the food change and thus allow us to produce better buildings. If any regret in my education, is all the school wanted to talk about is the phucking design and when ever you speak of money; it becomes a taboo. What school and AIA needed to do is help architect to secure funds for small projects. AIA stop sending me mails on life insurance, I don't plan to hurt or kill myself anytime soon.
Another after the holiday season job to consider, snow removal. I can hear may back breaking now.
Tour guide for historic neighborhoods excreta. People in spring break destinations should start looking into this.
Also might be a good idea to market your services as a consultant that can help get a client’s home or other buildings on a national historical register, It depends on the circle of friends and the community but it might be a very in thing to have registered historical landmark designation. The ultimate accessory to go next to you LEED plaque and your new hybrid range rover. The process is intensive and requires drawings, photos and other info but it could be a way to get work without building anything.
Looking for other suggestions for jobs that might last past the holiday shopping season that don't require a lot of new training for us architects. A friend in DC just got his massage therapy certification. Open to other suggestions for non seasonal or seasonal not holiday related work.
NO ONE is immune to this economic disaster. I feel less sorry for those that have gotten laid-off, and those that will soon be laid-off, than for those that have to stick on the job, work longer hours, and fear the next round of layoffs. I hope this bloody massacre ends soon; although all points to a protracted decline before a recovery can even be seen.
fourteen months later and this thread is still going strong. if i hear one more story about how the economy is rebounding because these f'ing banks are paying back a handful of a billion dollars when they owe hundreds of billions and are using the tarp money to acquire new financial institutions and to devise new risky investments rather than lend money to companies who will actually create jobs, i may defenestrate myself...
man... i fking sick of those banks, they steal money from people by charging insufficient fund fees, and this economy is perfect opportunity for them to squeeze out many of those ridicilous fees from people who lost their jobs but still have bills to pay. I just got charged six times in a row $35 insuffficient funds fee which brought my balance now to -$385, they don't give a damn whether you purchased a $1.12 doughnut or a cup of coffee, they just slam you with -$35 for any purchase when your balance is negative... I did further research and found out that just Chase alone made $1.4 billion dollars on insufficient fund fees in 2009. This is just one type of fee, if you sum up all the fees together you will with no doubt end up with at least $10 billion for just 1 year.
So I am so sick of them saying they are paying off the bailout money, its fking our money that they stole from us. The economy is not getting better, its just more people getting slammed with fees and means more income for the fking banks!
this is a few weeks old, but one of the larger (and i thought more stable right now) firms in town let go 11 people, including one principal. yes, they laid him off. so, really, no one's immune...
I've heard rumors that principal people are getting the axe, yet haven't seen much in my neck of the woods. To me it still seems that's the promised land of job security. None the less, from what I've heard people age 50's or older, getting laid off is like a death sentence/early retirement, what ever way you want to look at it. Nobody wants to hire "old" people. I'd argue that firms want to hire old people that might be able to bring a client or two their way, but there's lots of older Architects just doing production work. They're doomed in this economy. Ouch. As an older architect said to me once, "work your way up in management in your 30's or else leave the profession. There's no room for highly paid people on the production floor in this business." I was told that in good times and now it's crystal clear what he was talking about.
I just came across this thread (it is impressive how long it has run) – and came across some really interesting opinions, along with some truly inaccurate statements about the firm I work for – HKS in Dallas. So I am going to respond to a few peoples remarks so that everyone has accurate information. Critiquing anything is fine and good, but its worthless if you are given misinformed information.
Backflag:
...“After five rounds, nepotism is very evident in the firm, or at least at the "mothership". “
“I will give you one example now - obvious to many employed or previously employed at the fim...NEPOTISM. There are several relatives of upper management working in positions from admin staff to designers and architects. Some are very good at what they do; others are good people, but average (not at all incompetent) when it comes to their work. Trading notes with others, no one can recall any being laid off, after five rounds of layoffs. I have some more examples but will address later.”...
>>It kind of bewildered me when I read this because as an employee of HKS I’ve never even thought about the very few relatives we have working in the firm and the “nepotism” involved in that. I also don’t hear this discussed or complained about whatsoever amongst my coworkers. Im counting in my head right now and I can recall 6 or 7 people in the entire firm who have relatives in upper management- I would bet any firm the size of HKS has the same stat. Truthfully, I’d be very angry if I felt there was nepotism at HKS- but the truth is “nepotism” is not just relatives working at firms- the key factor is promotion without merit. Of the few relatives I know here, they are either extremely talented and would be doing well no matter what firm they worked for, or they are not “high up” in the first place. I don’t consider it “nepotism” when a bosses relative is a secretary.<<
Now the next comments im going to address were posted by “firmcom”.
firmcom:
"My opinion is that HKS, as a top international firm, is finished.
1. Greed.
Top level compensation is based largely on bonuses. So the faster you grow and absorb other firms the more profits you make. Absolutely no consideration was made to the "workhorse" employees if, lets say, the economy soured."
>>I cant stress how backwards this is. Correct- top level compensation is based largely on bonuses – largely, at the top level I would even guess bonuses range from being 50% to literally 95% of their income, highest % at the top. So this means that profits at the end of a year are a crucial part to the principals’ incomes, and also means that all of the risk lies solely on them. The higher up you are- the more at risk your income is in a downturn. For example- I am not high up at all, so my end-of-year bonus is probably .05% of my income and I try not to rely on it at all in terms of my means of living. So in the economic downturn, we have no salary cuts, and if my bonus is cut down to 30% of my 2008 bonus- it doesn’t really affect me. That is on the low end of the scale. Obviously, the higher your bonuses are –even in the middle of the pyramid- you rely on your bonus a little more and more. But “salaries” basically cap out at some point and the wide range in principals’ incomes is primarily in the bonus. So they have set up the company to where in times like these, the lower on the totem pole, the less hit you take, and those guys at the top are literally taking up to 70% cuts in their income.<<
"The similarities of the business structure of this firm and the American sub-prime mortgage debacle are striking. Like Countrywide and Wachovia - HKS created a bubble for itself that was unsustainable."
>>Again, this comparison is not just inaccurate, it is completely backwards. HKS is actually widely praised in our industry for its business model. Most architecture firms, like a lot of other companies, run on debt every year and use profits to pay it off. We are one of the few in our country who run on a cash basis. I don’t think I need to explain further. <<
"2. The brand is tarnished
Its roster has been depleted 50% since the downturn began. When a firm lays off half of its employees in less than 1 year it show incompetence in management."
>>Incorrect – closer to 35%. <<
"Perhaps if management paid more attention to economics and industry cycles then distributing out "best places to work" forms they would be in a better place. (Funny they still received the best place to work in DF/W award while they were slashing payrolls) What a twisted ego to pursue such things."
>>I guess there are silly people like me out there who truly love what they do. HKS far exceeds any other firm I’ve worked for.<<
"3.Nepotism
HKS has always been famous for office politics. But in this economy you must place the health of your firm above such frivolous things. HKS, of course, is not. While they are shedding some of the most talented people in the industry they are retaining vast amounts of mediocrity simply because they are related to or otherwise associated to someone in upper management."
>>I addressed this above already, but “vast amounts”? These are such strong statements for someone who clearly does not know anything about this firm. Even if there was a mediocre talent among the few relatives of upper management (if there are I don’t know them) 2-3 people out 1000 is not “vast amounts”.<<
"If the new HKS that emerges from this recession wishes to re-build itself on a foundation of sand, then so be it. On the other end, I know of a few firms that are preparing for an upturn by actively reaching out to former HKS employees. This level of experience and talent normally is not available to them.
4. New signature projects? Any?
The W hotel, Colts Stadium, and Cowboys Stadium... Whats next?
It has been years since HKS landed these projects. What major project has the firm brought in that is actually being built and will create buzz in the industry? I have yet to hear anything (and I doubt we will for some time)."
>>There are plenty. Are there really architects out there right now making stabs like “What major project has the firm brought in that is actually being built and will create buzz in the industry?” to other firms? The industry is hurting as a whole- lets not make it worse by degrading eachother for having fewer projects this year that are “actually being built and will create buzz in the industry”. <<
Update on the firm I was layed off from. It is in NYC, CRI,inc.
They have recently eliminated a few upper level personnel, including their long-time Vice President. He had brought in projects dealing with zoos and animal habitats, since he was an expert in this field. They created a butterfly sanctuary in the Bronx Zoo, and were working on another out on LI, NY near Westbury/Locust Valley. He also brought in a ground-up Synagogue project a few blocks from Lincoln Center, on the Upper West Side.
Some other higher-ups at the firm were eliminated as well, as their projects came to a completion. At first, in June 2008, the layoffs seemed to be lower, middle level people and only a few from the upper crust.
Now it seems, no one there is safe. Employees go to work and are scared of their fate.
The firm's main draw was renovations/upgrades to residential, new residential towers, and hotels.
In 2007, one of the 5 Principals had left on his own to pursue his own endeavors. After he left, the firm was not getting too many new contracts because he was the one who drew them in. He had relationships with developers and development companies in NYC that came back for repeat business.
About 6 months after that, the economy also played a big role in the slowdown of new business for this firm.
They hired a new HR staff to take care of firing people, this way it was more indirect that the boss you had a friendly relationship with for years firing you personally.
Not sure exactly how many employees are left there now, possibly around 25-30 out of a total of 90 at one point in 2006. They bought more offices in the same building in 2007, to expand their workforce, and both of those are now shut down.
The main floor of their office is partially empty now, people who still work there say it looks grim to see so many empty seats, some of which were once occupied by friends...
SThey hired a new HR staff to take care of firing people, this way it was more indirect that the boss you had a friendly relationship with for years firing you personally.
Is it just me, or is this completely ass-backward thinking?
At my previous job the office principals left it up to the PM you worked with to give you the ax. This wouldn't be so bad if you didn't see it coming... the principals usually made it a point to wander through the office once a day and just casually say hi to everyone, make a joke, etc. About a week before someone was let go they just skipped that persons desk like a death plague.
I guess on the other hand when I got the "can we talk to you for a minute in the conference room" I knew exactly what was going on, which for some reason then made the whole awkward "we don't know how to tell you this" situation rather humorous.
LB, at one of my previous firms that's exactly what they started doing. They started outsourcing the entire HR staff to handle layoffs at other firms and then imported a completely different HR staff to handle all the in-house layoffs.
Another interesting story I heard was that another larger frm called in their IT staff one morning to instruct them to de-activate the workstations of a bunch of being laid off. After that, they called in the IT staff and laid every one of them off.
After they hired the new HR staff to layoff people at CRI, they fired that same HR staff 4-5 months later when they were all done with the firing and rounds of layoffs...
Charlotte, At what point in this process were you laid off? I can relate first-hand to the slow drain of staff in the office. When the layoffs started, we were able to spread our stuff out; I remember one PM being almost gleeful as he spread out his stuff in 3 workstations. After a few rounds, the atmosphere (and the silence) was painful. Eventually, we partitioned-off a section of the studio and moved our workstations closer together. I'm not sure upper management was totally comfortable with us doing this, but they gave us the OK, and it seemed to help the everyday morale, somewhat.
I was laid off in the second round of 8 rounds, due to the fact that both of the 2 projects I was working on went on hold. I went to work and for 2 1/2 weeks, there was no work for my team. We were weary...
I built up the Revit library and set up templates on my own accord, just to keep busy. As other projects in the firm came to the construction phase, other employees were laid off. There was a pattern, it was based on what you were working on, and not on ability/talent or seniority.
The small firm in the building next to ours closed its doors for good this week. They were down to the 2 partners who are going to work from their houses individually I here. Another small studio in town let go it's staff last year and was operating on one clerical staff and the partners but they do closed their doors. I think the entity is still in business but at the moment homeless and jobless. I got a real bad feeling about 2010, sorry to be the bummer.
HR staff firing/laying off people..Is this news? For how long the hiring decision had been left to the "third parties" who have no or very little understanding of the position that needs to be filled and the skills one needs to possess for that particular position? Given the number of applications somebody has to go through all those resumes and eliminate most of them but HR are not doing their job well.
I heard one major with a NY satellite just laid off their only IT person in the city, after getting rid of most of their designers over the last few months. Not a good sign when the guy who runs the computers goes...
Parad0xx86 - totally agree with you, they just scan those resumes for key words, and throwing tons of qualifying resumes into trash because they didn't contain the correct wording...
when will this practice come to an end? Scanning resumes for key words is such past century but they keep doing it, hell, I bet people who have the correct wording in their resumes are the ones that don't qualify for the job...
it was based on what you were working on, and not on ability/talent or seniority
I've seen first hand and heard a lot about this happening at larger firms. OTOH friends working at small firms are scared to death that the doors will be closing for good. Not sure which is better.
From what I've seen at larger 100+ offices - so long as your team has billable hours you're safe, no matter how worthless of an employee you may be.
It's just a sign of corporate culture where a company gets so big there literally is little to no oversight of individual employees. Lay-offs are just numbers on a ledger and things like names and talent are never thought of. Too bad, but it's a reality that those of us working in larger offices have to deal with.
Layoffs....layoffs......
doggie - absolutely nothing personal (because others have certainly brought up the idea of a union before), but the day there is a union for architectural employees (never mind how difficult it would be to organize), is the day i leave the profession. of all the other stuff i have to deal with just trying to keep the doors open, a union would be the worst thing imaginable. it will absolutely kill small firms, if they don't just outright skirt it.
unionization won't cure the volatility of the profession which EVERYONE is facing. figure out how to lobby for banking reform - that's what will help right the ship faster.
outed....banking reform, now that's a novel concept! :)
In all seriousness, I have to agree. I've been approached by clients in the "idea" stage, a.k.a. "project conception" phase...only to get a call from them saying "no loans, no dice, no contract, we'll call you when this turns around."
doggieleesburg,
this industry need to be saved before a union would make any sense.
it would be logical to protect the worker of a "striving" industry, but it would be pointless to protect an industry that the people in it continue to destroy their own livelihood.
the point u don't seemed to get is that this industry would require a much larger transformation to save themselves. a union at this point would be as useless as wiping your ass before taking a shit.
in short, if the firms go down, there will be no labor that require protecting.
to be blunt, why didn't u walk away or refuse to work through the holidays when asked to by ur unreasonable boss? a perfect opportunity to "protect" yourself from exploitation. u do not need a union to take a stand. and if every employee start doing that, perhaps we are going somewhere.
"Not trying to save the industry." is precisely what a selfish professional would address his/her own organization or livelihood.
Ok I think this union discussion is good but a Union is not necessarily the answer, the AIA can serve that role if it had the right leaders and pressure from us. We need to get the AIA and ALA working together to make every state require an architect’s stamp on any structure occupied by the general public, we also need to get the exclusive right to design homes so that we can make them safer and more energy efficient, we also need a system to defrock those amongst us who practice architecture in an unprofessional or reckless way. Once we have that via AIA, a Union of Architects or a national movement to lobby state lawmakers we will be far better off.
Engineers and shabby home builders are stealing our business. School classroom trailers and the like are being designed by engineers that work should be on our desk.
But we also need to revamp the education system and internship process and bring back hands on work in construction and or some other kind of fabrication so the future designers are aware of and can make best use of contemporary manufacturing processes materials and other innovative systems. Architects have been behind the times in terms of CNC, Laser cut, plug and play, and other automated fabrication systems and as a result we have less influence on more of the built world. We should be able to design a house in the computer show a 3D model to the client they cut a check we hit send and robots start cutting the plywood and a factory starts assembling the kit of parts, this is possible and the results can yield interesting design if we know how to work with the fabricating systems in our country. An example to look at are folding bleachers and other portable stadium seating, those companies are capable of doing what a truly modern design practice should have been doing ten years ago.
Be an Architect but be a Designer first and design everything that you can.
AIA, we gave them a chance to reform the industry. All they have done was pushing BIM for Autodesk and LEED down everyones throat. They have never ever focused on the well been of the little people that works in the industry.
Like I said maybe the term is not "union," it could be guild, associations or organization. It has to be an organization that governs the ethical behavior of firms and not letting them exploit those that works in the field. As a note their were those that took a few hours of during last years Thanksgiving and Christmas, they were first to be let go, the excuse was "there was just not enough billable hours."
AIA didn't stop the governments abuse of design-build process and competitions. They do not even bother to paid those that lost out in the design competition process. What is even worse is after a job gets awarded, they can cancel a job with out any reason as to there is not sufficient funding and not even get penalized for it. Where is AIA in all these, no where. They were busy helping Autodesk and LEED pebbling the product to the governments.
I have given up on AIA and have not intention to be it's member in the coming years. They are like someone said before an old fart club, a tiger with no teeth. And what is with the FAIA and Associate AIA, class discrimination or segregation, no, it's milking for more money.
I for one say, it's now or never to reform. Protect those that works in it as the primary objective. If companies want to send their work out so be it, as long as it is not money from the tax dollars. We would not stand for a sweat shop in other countries, than we should not stand for one right here in our living room.
Honestly, I don't think the issue with our industry has anything to do with the AIA. Its in how we operate as architects.
I posted a blog entry about this on monday and a post about this on another thread as well.
First, we are not accessible to the public, very few people actually hire architects in their life. Sure they work in buildings designed by us, but hardly any directly deal with us as professionals. This makes us a mystery, and as such people are left to think of all architects as dealers in luxury: Frank Gehrys, Frank Lloyd Wrights, or characters from movies. We don't command the respect that doctors and lawyers do because we are not considered necessary. In addition, because people don't understand us, they can't understand why we add value to projects.
Second, we as an industry only have a large fee long term billing model. We don't offer quick small fee services, and as such unlike doctors and lawyers, people can't "try out" a new architect before giving us a big contract. The few small fee services that architects provide could be provided by any other building profession and not a licensed architect and since the public has no idea why we charge so much they rightfully go with other professionals to perform these small jobs.
I agree, s.selophane, and have often thought the same thing myself... where are regular our small fee services? and you're right, most people don't understand the value of an architect in a project.
I was reading an old ACSA article and I thought this was a very appropriate quote - even though he was talking about diversity in the profession - I think it applies to the profession as a whole, not just the aspect of diversity:
"To put things into perspective, in 1968, civil rights leader Whitney Young was invited to address the AIA. Young chided those present with
these words,
”...as a profession, you are not a profession that has distinguished itself by your social and civic contributions to the cause of
civil rights, and I am sure this has not come to you as any shock. You are most distinguished by your thunderous silence and your complete irrelevance.”
Sorry, fellas ... all this AIA bashing and debate about unionization isn't going to get you where you want to go. As a profession, we're so diverse, splintered and independent that we're virtually ungovernable.
Everybody wants to blame the AIA, or the schools, or "management" or "the old farts" for all of our ills as a profession. While venting all that anger may be fun, it isn't that simple.
found this link in today's Architect magazine e-mail that they send out.
http://boston.bizjournals.com/boston/stories/2009/11/30/daily27.html
Wow! I always assumed Cubelis was a strong firm with a diverse client base. If they can go under anyone can under. Just wow.
a chance to express your opinion on the aia:
https://www.iisecure.com/AIAMemberSurvey.asp
do your worst! if it matters
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from the article,
"In a 2007 interview with the Boston Business Journal, firm founder Lenord Cubellis said he built his namesake design firm by not straying from the idea that architects must design buildings that please their clients, not just themselves."
Well, that obviously doesn't work. diabase may have been right in the avant garde thread,
"Most of the time I see architects bending backwards to accomodate the requests and whims of clients and contractors. I think this is part of the problem... I'd argue that architects' power has been whittled down to levels that are tenous at best."
That portfolio sounds like about 99% of the corporate firms out there. It's not comforting to hear about a firm doing the exact same type of work as me going under like this. You'd think that while retail & residential are drastically down the academic and corporate work could keep them afloat, all be it much smaller.
Also remember that for every firm the size of Cubellis that goes under there's dozens of smaller outfits that close the doors for good without any press.
How about that to cheer you up on a Friday morning.
Well... today's my last day of work... Laid off!
Hmm... scary job market out there...
On the bright side, I guess I can finally focus on finishing my ARE's... And join the good people in the funemployed ranks! :)
s.selophane, one way clients get to "try us out" is that we typically do a schematic design initially with a flat fee for that service. Then the clients get a budget price from a contractor for what we've proposed, and if they want to move forward we move into the next phase of the project which is typically on a percentage of construction cost basis.
We also get virtually all of our work on a referral basis, so the new client has heard from someone they know that we are a good risk.
But you're right that most people have no idea what architects do and have a media-promoted fear that we are just looking for some sucker to finance our egotistical erections. No pun intended, of course;-)
Oh, bRink, so sorry to hear that. I hope you can get unemployment and get those AREs finished!
Thanks liberty... Yeah, going to register for UI today, and try to hit the ground running at these ARE's! :)
Aw jeez...sorry bRink. Good luck on the AREs!
liberty bell - thats a great method of compartmentalizing the fees so the owner/client has escape points, but the issue still remains that we don't offer any real small fee services; therefore we only get projects when people have a bunch of cash lying around or a guaranteed bank loan.
But if we could as a profession come up with smaller scale services like the architectural walik-through service discussed in last month's AIA newsletter, we could start building relationships with home owners and other clients who may not have the cash now but could become great resources in the future.
Those of you with a clean record and a bachelor’s degree should look into substitute teacher registration, all you need (in Illinois) is a bachelors and no criminal record, the pay is about $80-140 per day depending on where you are. Look it up in other states by locating the HR department of your local school and or regional office of education. This will probably help out since this flu season teachers will have to stay home for a period after they feel better due to the swine flu precautions being implemented nationwide.
Dose anyone have any other stop gap job ideas that would carry over into January?
I think as architect we needed to be educated with the financial loan process. These will help us fund our own projects and take the developer off the food change and thus allow us to produce better buildings. If any regret in my education, is all the school wanted to talk about is the phucking design and when ever you speak of money; it becomes a taboo. What school and AIA needed to do is help architect to secure funds for small projects. AIA stop sending me mails on life insurance, I don't plan to hurt or kill myself anytime soon.
PJN26: in answer to your question, there's always a holiday season job in retail, if you're looking for a stop gap until January.
better than nothing, I guess.....
Another after the holiday season job to consider, snow removal. I can hear may back breaking now.
Tour guide for historic neighborhoods excreta. People in spring break destinations should start looking into this.
Also might be a good idea to market your services as a consultant that can help get a client’s home or other buildings on a national historical register, It depends on the circle of friends and the community but it might be a very in thing to have registered historical landmark designation. The ultimate accessory to go next to you LEED plaque and your new hybrid range rover. The process is intensive and requires drawings, photos and other info but it could be a way to get work without building anything.
Looking for other suggestions for jobs that might last past the holiday shopping season that don't require a lot of new training for us architects. A friend in DC just got his massage therapy certification. Open to other suggestions for non seasonal or seasonal not holiday related work.
Oh forgot Mardi Gras float designer
NO ONE is immune to this economic disaster. I feel less sorry for those that have gotten laid-off, and those that will soon be laid-off, than for those that have to stick on the job, work longer hours, and fear the next round of layoffs. I hope this bloody massacre ends soon; although all points to a protracted decline before a recovery can even be seen.
sorry to see cubellis leave...but it will help out on the short lists...
fourteen months later and this thread is still going strong. if i hear one more story about how the economy is rebounding because these f'ing banks are paying back a handful of a billion dollars when they owe hundreds of billions and are using the tarp money to acquire new financial institutions and to devise new risky investments rather than lend money to companies who will actually create jobs, i may defenestrate myself...
man... i fking sick of those banks, they steal money from people by charging insufficient fund fees, and this economy is perfect opportunity for them to squeeze out many of those ridicilous fees from people who lost their jobs but still have bills to pay. I just got charged six times in a row $35 insuffficient funds fee which brought my balance now to -$385, they don't give a damn whether you purchased a $1.12 doughnut or a cup of coffee, they just slam you with -$35 for any purchase when your balance is negative... I did further research and found out that just Chase alone made $1.4 billion dollars on insufficient fund fees in 2009. This is just one type of fee, if you sum up all the fees together you will with no doubt end up with at least $10 billion for just 1 year.
So I am so sick of them saying they are paying off the bailout money, its fking our money that they stole from us. The economy is not getting better, its just more people getting slammed with fees and means more income for the fking banks!
back to actual layoffs...
this is a few weeks old, but one of the larger (and i thought more stable right now) firms in town let go 11 people, including one principal. yes, they laid him off. so, really, no one's immune...
I've heard rumors that principal people are getting the axe, yet haven't seen much in my neck of the woods. To me it still seems that's the promised land of job security. None the less, from what I've heard people age 50's or older, getting laid off is like a death sentence/early retirement, what ever way you want to look at it. Nobody wants to hire "old" people. I'd argue that firms want to hire old people that might be able to bring a client or two their way, but there's lots of older Architects just doing production work. They're doomed in this economy. Ouch. As an older architect said to me once, "work your way up in management in your 30's or else leave the profession. There's no room for highly paid people on the production floor in this business." I was told that in good times and now it's crystal clear what he was talking about.
Rockstarbabu you are a complete DUD
I just came across this thread (it is impressive how long it has run) – and came across some really interesting opinions, along with some truly inaccurate statements about the firm I work for – HKS in Dallas. So I am going to respond to a few peoples remarks so that everyone has accurate information. Critiquing anything is fine and good, but its worthless if you are given misinformed information.
Backflag:
...“After five rounds, nepotism is very evident in the firm, or at least at the "mothership". “
“I will give you one example now - obvious to many employed or previously employed at the fim...NEPOTISM. There are several relatives of upper management working in positions from admin staff to designers and architects. Some are very good at what they do; others are good people, but average (not at all incompetent) when it comes to their work. Trading notes with others, no one can recall any being laid off, after five rounds of layoffs. I have some more examples but will address later.”...
>>It kind of bewildered me when I read this because as an employee of HKS I’ve never even thought about the very few relatives we have working in the firm and the “nepotism” involved in that. I also don’t hear this discussed or complained about whatsoever amongst my coworkers. Im counting in my head right now and I can recall 6 or 7 people in the entire firm who have relatives in upper management- I would bet any firm the size of HKS has the same stat. Truthfully, I’d be very angry if I felt there was nepotism at HKS- but the truth is “nepotism” is not just relatives working at firms- the key factor is promotion without merit. Of the few relatives I know here, they are either extremely talented and would be doing well no matter what firm they worked for, or they are not “high up” in the first place. I don’t consider it “nepotism” when a bosses relative is a secretary.<<
Now the next comments im going to address were posted by “firmcom”.
firmcom:
"My opinion is that HKS, as a top international firm, is finished.
1. Greed.
Top level compensation is based largely on bonuses. So the faster you grow and absorb other firms the more profits you make. Absolutely no consideration was made to the "workhorse" employees if, lets say, the economy soured."
>>I cant stress how backwards this is. Correct- top level compensation is based largely on bonuses – largely, at the top level I would even guess bonuses range from being 50% to literally 95% of their income, highest % at the top. So this means that profits at the end of a year are a crucial part to the principals’ incomes, and also means that all of the risk lies solely on them. The higher up you are- the more at risk your income is in a downturn. For example- I am not high up at all, so my end-of-year bonus is probably .05% of my income and I try not to rely on it at all in terms of my means of living. So in the economic downturn, we have no salary cuts, and if my bonus is cut down to 30% of my 2008 bonus- it doesn’t really affect me. That is on the low end of the scale. Obviously, the higher your bonuses are –even in the middle of the pyramid- you rely on your bonus a little more and more. But “salaries” basically cap out at some point and the wide range in principals’ incomes is primarily in the bonus. So they have set up the company to where in times like these, the lower on the totem pole, the less hit you take, and those guys at the top are literally taking up to 70% cuts in their income.<<
"The similarities of the business structure of this firm and the American sub-prime mortgage debacle are striking. Like Countrywide and Wachovia - HKS created a bubble for itself that was unsustainable."
>>Again, this comparison is not just inaccurate, it is completely backwards. HKS is actually widely praised in our industry for its business model. Most architecture firms, like a lot of other companies, run on debt every year and use profits to pay it off. We are one of the few in our country who run on a cash basis. I don’t think I need to explain further. <<
"2. The brand is tarnished
Its roster has been depleted 50% since the downturn began. When a firm lays off half of its employees in less than 1 year it show incompetence in management."
>>Incorrect – closer to 35%. <<
"Perhaps if management paid more attention to economics and industry cycles then distributing out "best places to work" forms they would be in a better place. (Funny they still received the best place to work in DF/W award while they were slashing payrolls) What a twisted ego to pursue such things."
>>I guess there are silly people like me out there who truly love what they do. HKS far exceeds any other firm I’ve worked for.<<
"3.Nepotism
HKS has always been famous for office politics. But in this economy you must place the health of your firm above such frivolous things. HKS, of course, is not. While they are shedding some of the most talented people in the industry they are retaining vast amounts of mediocrity simply because they are related to or otherwise associated to someone in upper management."
>>I addressed this above already, but “vast amounts”? These are such strong statements for someone who clearly does not know anything about this firm. Even if there was a mediocre talent among the few relatives of upper management (if there are I don’t know them) 2-3 people out 1000 is not “vast amounts”.<<
"If the new HKS that emerges from this recession wishes to re-build itself on a foundation of sand, then so be it. On the other end, I know of a few firms that are preparing for an upturn by actively reaching out to former HKS employees. This level of experience and talent normally is not available to them.
4. New signature projects? Any?
The W hotel, Colts Stadium, and Cowboys Stadium... Whats next?
It has been years since HKS landed these projects. What major project has the firm brought in that is actually being built and will create buzz in the industry? I have yet to hear anything (and I doubt we will for some time)."
>>There are plenty. Are there really architects out there right now making stabs like “What major project has the firm brought in that is actually being built and will create buzz in the industry?” to other firms? The industry is hurting as a whole- lets not make it worse by degrading eachother for having fewer projects this year that are “actually being built and will create buzz in the industry”. <<
Update on the firm I was layed off from. It is in NYC, CRI,inc.
They have recently eliminated a few upper level personnel, including their long-time Vice President. He had brought in projects dealing with zoos and animal habitats, since he was an expert in this field. They created a butterfly sanctuary in the Bronx Zoo, and were working on another out on LI, NY near Westbury/Locust Valley. He also brought in a ground-up Synagogue project a few blocks from Lincoln Center, on the Upper West Side.
Some other higher-ups at the firm were eliminated as well, as their projects came to a completion. At first, in June 2008, the layoffs seemed to be lower, middle level people and only a few from the upper crust.
Now it seems, no one there is safe. Employees go to work and are scared of their fate.
The firm's main draw was renovations/upgrades to residential, new residential towers, and hotels.
In 2007, one of the 5 Principals had left on his own to pursue his own endeavors. After he left, the firm was not getting too many new contracts because he was the one who drew them in. He had relationships with developers and development companies in NYC that came back for repeat business.
About 6 months after that, the economy also played a big role in the slowdown of new business for this firm.
They hired a new HR staff to take care of firing people, this way it was more indirect that the boss you had a friendly relationship with for years firing you personally.
Not sure exactly how many employees are left there now, possibly around 25-30 out of a total of 90 at one point in 2006. They bought more offices in the same building in 2007, to expand their workforce, and both of those are now shut down.
The main floor of their office is partially empty now, people who still work there say it looks grim to see so many empty seats, some of which were once occupied by friends...
They have been in business over 20 years in NYC.
Is it just me, or is this completely ass-backward thinking?
At my previous job the office principals left it up to the PM you worked with to give you the ax. This wouldn't be so bad if you didn't see it coming... the principals usually made it a point to wander through the office once a day and just casually say hi to everyone, make a joke, etc. About a week before someone was let go they just skipped that persons desk like a death plague.
I guess on the other hand when I got the "can we talk to you for a minute in the conference room" I knew exactly what was going on, which for some reason then made the whole awkward "we don't know how to tell you this" situation rather humorous.
LB, at one of my previous firms that's exactly what they started doing. They started outsourcing the entire HR staff to handle layoffs at other firms and then imported a completely different HR staff to handle all the in-house layoffs.
Another interesting story I heard was that another larger frm called in their IT staff one morning to instruct them to de-activate the workstations of a bunch of being laid off. After that, they called in the IT staff and laid every one of them off.
After they hired the new HR staff to layoff people at CRI, they fired that same HR staff 4-5 months later when they were all done with the firing and rounds of layoffs...
Charlotte, At what point in this process were you laid off? I can relate first-hand to the slow drain of staff in the office. When the layoffs started, we were able to spread our stuff out; I remember one PM being almost gleeful as he spread out his stuff in 3 workstations. After a few rounds, the atmosphere (and the silence) was painful. Eventually, we partitioned-off a section of the studio and moved our workstations closer together. I'm not sure upper management was totally comfortable with us doing this, but they gave us the OK, and it seemed to help the everyday morale, somewhat.
BTW, I'm currently writing a screenplay about a corporate 'ax-man'. I'm thinking George Clooney would be the perfect lead...
Canary,
I think that is the plot of the current Clooney movie, Up in the Air. He plays a corporate ax man for hire....truly a movie for our times.....
Yup, It's on my list to see. I think he's one of the great actors of our time.
I was laid off in the second round of 8 rounds, due to the fact that both of the 2 projects I was working on went on hold. I went to work and for 2 1/2 weeks, there was no work for my team. We were weary...
I built up the Revit library and set up templates on my own accord, just to keep busy. As other projects in the firm came to the construction phase, other employees were laid off. There was a pattern, it was based on what you were working on, and not on ability/talent or seniority.
The small firm in the building next to ours closed its doors for good this week. They were down to the 2 partners who are going to work from their houses individually I here. Another small studio in town let go it's staff last year and was operating on one clerical staff and the partners but they do closed their doors. I think the entity is still in business but at the moment homeless and jobless. I got a real bad feeling about 2010, sorry to be the bummer.
oh how I wish this thread would go away.
HR staff firing/laying off people..Is this news? For how long the hiring decision had been left to the "third parties" who have no or very little understanding of the position that needs to be filled and the skills one needs to possess for that particular position? Given the number of applications somebody has to go through all those resumes and eliminate most of them but HR are not doing their job well.
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/97/open_hr.html
An employer who leaves the hiring and firing decisions to HR is not much of a decision maker he is supposed to be,is he?
I heard one major with a NY satellite just laid off their only IT person in the city, after getting rid of most of their designers over the last few months. Not a good sign when the guy who runs the computers goes...
Get involved with creating a resource based economy? Our design skills are needed to design in a humanistic society of abundance post capitalism.
Parad0xx86 - totally agree with you, they just scan those resumes for key words, and throwing tons of qualifying resumes into trash because they didn't contain the correct wording...
when will this practice come to an end? Scanning resumes for key words is such past century but they keep doing it, hell, I bet people who have the correct wording in their resumes are the ones that don't qualify for the job...
I've seen first hand and heard a lot about this happening at larger firms. OTOH friends working at small firms are scared to death that the doors will be closing for good. Not sure which is better.
From what I've seen at larger 100+ offices - so long as your team has billable hours you're safe, no matter how worthless of an employee you may be.
It's just a sign of corporate culture where a company gets so big there literally is little to no oversight of individual employees. Lay-offs are just numbers on a ledger and things like names and talent are never thought of. Too bad, but it's a reality that those of us working in larger offices have to deal with.
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