@joe I don't know if I'd call it a "glow"...more of a harrowing sadness that permeates my being when I dwell on it for too long. I'm trying now to make light of it, and realize that I'm not the only one going through this.
Your point about the gap in architectural employment is an interesting one. In any other economic environment, I think that a potential employer would have good cause to question a candidate for having a job that wasn't in architecture. However, (like you mentioned) anything goes in this economy. I honestly don't believe that somebody is going to judge you during an interview for having a job outside of architecture while you waited for the economy to pick up.
After my first layoff, I applied for a systems administrator position because it was available and somewhat in my skill set. One of the first questions that I was asked was whether or not I'd miss architecture if I was hired. I told them I that it was more important to me to have a steady paycheck and be gainfully employed, but yes, I'd miss architecture. They seemed to be okay with that.
Joe, exactly. All these old windbags have been telling us not to feel ashamed about getting the axe but the truth of the matter is that they are all nothing but liars and will be judging everyone when they get interviewed the second they walk in that conference room. They could give two good goddamns less about the economy (that they don't even have a clue about in the first place) and how it has devastated the architecture profession and how they themselves have blatantly put the profession in danger of total extinction forever.
After all, we are talking about a generation that only cares about killing poeple for natural resources, invading countries that they pretend they care about (ehem national interests), and running corporations into the ground into the ground as long as they can make some money while ruining the lives of thousands.
Mark my words people, this is the only profession in the world where you can stay until midnight everynight every night, be ridiculously busy, and then get laid off a day later. And people call architecture a "dignified" profession??? Not when you have to deal with this kind nonsense at any given time. I've seen a lot of dear friends get the axe and they were some of the most talanted stalwarts you can imagine. The story is similar, you can be completely busy, 100% billable (lawyers are never 100% billable and sit around fucking around on the internet all day), and then get canned the next day while being escorted off the premises by police like criminals. Great way to tell our next generation that architecture is for them....
RTKL in DC/Baltimore/Dallas/Chicago/LA has been laying off people quietly for the last few weeks now... one at a time. Two weeks ago 24 people were laid off across three of the US offices.
Yesterday a few were laid off in the DC office.
I made it through 5 rounds of layoffs. You can now add me to the unemployment list.
Oh... I forgot to mention... just last week I worked 16 hours of overtime in two days. And I'm 7 months pregnant.
It's no secret though... RTKL is imploding on itself. There is no work. The studio I was in went from nearly 40 last summer, to 8: 2 VP's, 3 principals, 1 associate, and 2 staff. Please tell me why you need 2 VP's for 6 people. Or three principals for that matter.
All these old windbags have been telling us not to feel ashamed about getting the axe but the truth of the matter is that they are all nothing but liars and will be judging everyone when they get interviewed
The media is covering the unemployment situation by focusing on the middle to older aged people getting laid off and having a difficult time finding work. However in Architecture I've seen just the opposite. Firms that I'm familiar with have been axing production staff en masse, while retaining most of their older management staff. One reason I was given is that these people are the "rainmakers" and supposedly bring in work. I don't agree completely regarding many mid-level project managers, but I don't get to make those decisions. All I know is that I see a lot of very top heavy firms around right now. If the work doesn't pick up those highly paid guys are going to start dropping too. But if things do pick up there will be a need to actually get the work done...something PM's can't do, at least well. Essentially, if you don't get hired soon expect to see those old "windbags" at the unemployment office too.
After all, we are talking about a generation that only cares about killing poeple for natural resources, invading countries that they pretend they care about (ehem national interests), and running corporations into the ground into the ground as long as they can make some money while ruining the lives of thousands.
med, I understand your frusturation but by in large the owners of architecture firms aren't to blame for what you outline above. Politicians and Corporate CEO's yes, but even the presidents of the largest Arch firms in no way have the influence the CEO of a major bank has, or a Washington politician.
The story is similar, you can be completely busy, 100% billable .....and then get canned the next day while being escorted off the premises by police like criminals.
Not all firms are like this. Same goes for the excessive OT work. We are our own worst enemy when we accept that type of work place. Don't work for "free" just to get experience. Don't accept insane hours. Although it's hard to make yourself heard in this economy, in better times don't accept a poor working environment. Quit and go elsewhere.
they themselves have blatantly put the profession in danger of total extinction forever
What? We are on the down slope of a boom. Things will be slow...and for some time in my opinion. That said, there will always be a need for shelter and Architects aren't going anywhere. Smaller numbers, yes, but extinction, no.
+i, very sorry to hear that..... You have something even greater coming your way! :) -- something far greater than a bunch of self-serving bums. So keep your head up.
It's exactly what I was saying. this is the ONLY profession where you can be 100% billable and busy doing quality work, and then get sent into the gass chamber for no reason. And those assholes preach to US about loyalty....?
It happened at one of the big Atlanta-based firms in DC a while back. They already had multiple rounds of layoffs and then one day out of nowhere the entire production staff was laid off and the higher ups didn't realize that Middle-management and higher management knew absolutely nothing about producing anything in CAD or 3d. Since then things apparently picked up and few people have been rehired making about 40% less than what they were making.
A full-time McDonalds paycheck would put that pay to shame. And they clal this profession dignified? Again, I'm waiting for somene to actual prove that it is.
Then shut the hell up already and start your own firm. Jeesh this generation is the whiniest group I've ever heard. Try raising 2 kids in 1978 in the rust belt while finding your own clients if you think this is hard. You have no idea.
med., I suspect you have absolutely no idea what other professions are like. At McDonald's - and most companies - they make you pee in a cup and your employee locker rooms are subject to search at management whim. You say you're "waiting for someone to actually prove" that this profession can treat its young well, yet a dozen posters here have given evidence of exactly that and you refuse to acknowledge it.
And since med. has a chip on his shoulder big enough to block his vision, I'll say again to the young interns reading this: like in any profession, there are a lot of assholes, and a lot of really god people. A lot of those really good people own firms and treat their employees fairly and respectfully. I've worked at both kinds. Don't feel being abused by an employer is just the way this business is, there are other firms out there, as well as co-workers who aren't as cynical and grumpy as med. is.
Ha! That should say a lot of "good" people. A lot of "god" people makes it sound like there are assholes, then there are those who think they are god - I suspect the Venn diagram on those groups would be one circle.
There are a lot of good people and they are getting crushed to. I know it's hard to be young and unemployed in your field but could you imagine being 40 or 50 with a family and meeting a weekly payroll, paying payroll taxes even when there is no money coming in? You do this by mortgaging your own home, credit lines, kid's college savings and going without a paycheck. Now do all that and still go out of business.
I've been there and Im having a terrible year ( why you see me around here ). If it wasn’t for an investment my wife and I put into a suburban pizza parlor we would have no income this past year.
If you think getting laid off by your boss is bad getting laid off from your clients is worse.
*Disclaimer* I'm one of those "young interns" that everyone seems to be criticizing. I got my B.Arch. last May and I'm now in my second bout of unemployment.
I have to give props to liberty bell on this one. Yes, there are people in this profession with severe asshole syndrome, but there are also those who do value their younger employees and will help them grow.
I've worked for both types of people, and been unceremoniously laid off as well. Good, respectful bosses DO exist. It's the luck of the draw right now as to whether or not you're going to work for them. In a better economic situation, one has the enviable luxury of seeking out employers that treat employees well.
At my last job, it was a little less pleasant...but I kept my mouth shut and did my best. Because I wanted to keep my job. Not every single job you'll have in your life will be a great one; it's just the one you have until one that you suits you better comes along.
I spent 7 months looking for a job from Nov 2008 - May 2009. Although, i did go hang out in Brazil for 2.5 months, I still kept the job search up (the future is here! Now you too, can be unemployed & remote!) from a santa catarina beach. It was pretty good, 'til I started having trouble paying the local coconut vendors...
So i figured I'd either have to start selling coconuts, or find something in a real demeaning field. Since the economy had also taken it's toll on the Gigolo market, I really had to sink to lows - although, I had been there before...I just decided to bend over & enjoy it...I...I...tooka job...OH GAWD...as a ....Prrrrojj...ekkkk...tttt.....OH THE HORRIBLE THOUGHTS.....Managerrr!!!!!!
I can't complain, I suppose. But I just wonder when I'll ever get back to doing work that I really love. Project management is baby-sitting & it's pretty easy. However, it's just plain annoying - from this vantage point, you really see how bad the crybabies can be. Sometimes I'd rather be without the dough. But it's nice to pay the bills, esp. now. So, for the next few years (which is how long this 'recession' will last), I guess I'll do this stuff.
It is a sad thing. I know they dismantled the incredible AIA national archive and library and sold off much of the history of my profession. I don't remember that being discussed.
WOW. We had only heard about one of the furloughs- there were two? It also seems like and many of the staff members with experience were let go or forced out.
I miss Norman's way of doing things- with an architect at the helm it felt like we were all in it together. Now the members are seen by as revenue generators. We will try for the free membership I think, but not worth it otherwise.
It's still scary out there....even if you didnt have to raise kids in the rust belt in 1978, its still scary. The stuff I'm doing now aint sexy, (school modernizations)...but its secure, and we are actually hiring....I saw a few sexier firms were hiring...but it just scares me too much to apply....staying put, will ride out what this horrible economic crapper did to our lives.
It's still scary out there....even if you didnt have to raise kids in the rust belt in 1978, its still scary. The stuff I'm doing now aint sexy, (school modernizations)...but its secure, and we are actually hiring....I saw a few sexier firms were hiring...but it just scares me too much to apply....staying put, will ride out what this horrible economic crapper did to our lives.
i+ care to expand on your "RTKL is imploding on itself" statement?
Sorry to hear about your situation, but it's not an RTKL problem...everyone is hurting and the hurt will continue. I too have survived the same rounds and every week I think it's coming...but still hanging on!
yes, there is little or no work out there, but there are a few glimmers of hope.
One can argue that certain financial decisions made a few years ago behind closed doors (in amstedam) may have been the start of the end for a certain sector (RTKL) but I still have some trust in the company.
I was just at an event last week with many other firms (landscape, interiors, arch, etc.) and everyone is still hurting...layoffs have slowed/stabilized. The concensus was that the worst was behind us and things would start trickling back soon.
There are local firms that were once powerhouses with 200 employees and they are down to 15 vp/principals...yes, top heavy but certain clients have relationships... and the investment of keeping some people around is worth it. I've seen it first hand. A "talent challenged" person kept around because a client wanted them around that led to a project which kept 7 ppl employed for a year.
best of luck!
J3- I certainly don't disagree everyone is feeling this- that's pretty obvious, no? This was a statement directed to a particular sector within the firm that is having a great deal of difficulty getting ANY work- even the unglamorous, bread-and-butter jobs- in ANY country. I would not argue if the top heavy were kept around BECAUSE they had relationships that were profitable to keep clients- that is clearly a business direction that makes sense. But this is not the case... in fact in some situations within this firm, specifically within a certain sector, it is in spite of the "top heavy, talent challenged" that some projects existed for as long as they did. This is not a blanketed statement- there are some leaders within the firm who try to uphold what was so great to begin with... but the firm has drastically changed -not for the better- and the economy can't be blamed for ALL of the changes that have taken place there.
Many of us believed things would "trickle back soon" as well- unfortunately we saw the light when every single proposal or client contact has gone dead,and many large projects are quickly coming to a close (January/Feb. 2010). There is no backlog of work- sometimes full teams are left to twiddle their thumbs and wonder when the axe is going to fall- and how long can that last? 6 weeks? 3 months? (For us it had been a few months) It's a difficult time for everyone involved... but I would like to think that the business-directed minds, both in the Netherlands and within each office, are keen enough to recognize when the top is just too damn heavy, unprofitable, and suffocating the rest of the firm.
we haven't gone to pay cuts for the staff. we did 'lay off' one person rather than go that route. no furloughs. only reduction in benefits was to suspend our (the firm's) matching contributions to 401k's.
aquapura- I agree. I had been lucky this go-around on the paycut front. Very lucky. But, I had already been laid off in May 2007. Moved for new job in August 2007. Paycut in March 2008 followed by layoff in May 2008. New job in July 2008 followed by paycut in November 2009.
Yeah, half the people I know in the profession are unemployed and I'd say that the other half are underemployed. And, by underemployed I mean paycut, part time etc.
I've been pretty resilient, still managed to get my license in 2008 and LEED done in 2009. But, financially things are starting to add up.
I really feel sorry for you architects, but its even much worse for us, the 3D guys. The guys that are below you, not only our bread is being outsourced to China, but also we are the first ones to be laid off when things are bad... What hurts me know even me is to watch the rendering quality drop so much, I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw new renderings this year, how crappy things become, how acceptable crap has become, unbelievable. It moved from photoreal to flat cheap crap in just 1 year..... 5 years of 3D advancement lost in just 1 year :(
I don't see any end to this bad economy, the only end is probably the collapse of the dollar, maybe with new currency we will get a fresh start in this country...
zen, do you have an architecture degree? Are you pursuing being an architect and using rendering as a way to get started in the field?
I'm not asking to be superior or anything, just wondering what you feel your options are. If you are pursuing being an architect, you would have to stay in the field, obviously. If you aren't, I would think you could do graphics in other fields, like science modeling, tv or game graphics, etc. I understand those fields aren't exactly bustling either, though.
hmmm, did I just kill this thread? or is it over, no more lay offs?
Hardly....I think a lot of people just want to try and forget what it's really like out there.
financially things are starting to add up
Count me in that camp. Ten + years experience in arch firms, Registered Architect and LEED AP, now scratching my head thinking about how I never imagined myself in this place right now.
It's hard enough to start out in this profession, but I was finally getting a foothold and feeling established when this economy hit. With a dramatic reduction in pay/benefits and real world expenses that don't dip, i.e. mortgage, things feel worse today than they did when I was fresh out of college.
Still, I'm thankful to be "underemployed" vs. the alternative these days. That said, I'm not optimistic about my generation (30-something gen x'ers) of Architects. Those above us, the boomers, aren't retiring fast enough, especially now with their 401k's so beat up. Without a booming economy there is no room for promotion without someone above exiting the profession.
And of all the stories in this economy about different cuts firms are making, not one has included a principal/partner stepping down. Most firms are grossly top heavy. I also think the line that principal's are the "rain makers" bringing in the work is largely exaggerated, especially with longstanding repeat clients.
Meanwhile talking amongst the older Architects that I trust none have any plans to retire and make room for new blood (see 401k comment above). Actually most are trying to hire anyone with 30+ years experience in hopes of them poaching clients from their current employers. Organic growth in this business is dead.
"And of all the stories in this economy about different cuts firms are making, not one has included a principal/partner stepping down. Most firms are grossly top heavy. I also think the line that principal's are the "rain makers" bringing in the work is largely exaggerated, especially with longstanding repeat clients."
aqua -- your world and mine must be entirely different - our firm dumped two principals (one a founder) in the past two years because a) neither made money for the firm and b) neither really brought in enough new work to warrant their cost. In a real sense, the other principals "pitched a fit" because they were tired of subsidizing those deadbeats while the others were seeking work anywhere it could be found and doing whatever was necessary to break even.
Sorry, aqua, but most architects don't start hitting their stride, design-wise, until their 50s. Why would they retire right when they're starting to achieve something worthwhile?
When Frank Gehry retires, that's the age at which most architects will start dropping off. Hell, isn't Niemeyer in his 90s? Or even 100?
Don't wait around for the odler generation to retire. Figure out a new way to practice, that's what this field needs.
as to firms letting principals go: know for a fact that one of the firms doing the best in town (at least until this quarter) let one of their principals go last week, along with 11 others. sounded like a pretty 'vertical' slice.
and for every one of those, there are 10 others who are very nervous, in their larger firms, about the long term pay cuts they're taking to try and make it through. granted, their base pay may be higher, but my guess is their situation isn't too dissimilar in that they've worked their way up, have a lifestyle they were comfortable in, and are now struggling to make sure that doesn't implode.
i do share aqua's concern about what this recession will do the profession overall. something i've thought about a lot recently, considering i'm supposed to close out a professional practice class tomorrow (what the future firm will be like. yikes.)
LB - I see your point when it comes to good designers, but I don't think that the "stride" you are talking about also applies to project management skills....handling contracts, client relationships, etc. Believe it or not most Architect's don't actually work until the day they die. Sure, the famous ones do, but most retire in their 60's like everyone else.
Additionally, call me crazy but I want to sign drawings someday. I've never heard of any firm where the production staff was signing the drawings. That's the realm of the principal architect and one reason I want to get there.
I really don't mind working in the trenches on the production work from SD through CA. It's good experience. That said, the money and respect in this profession is on the other side.
You're right, aqua. Then again, you can stamp drawings as soon as you go out and start your own firm, right? Go for it! (Assuming you're licensed, of course.)
@liberty - I have Bachelor's in arch degree, but after graduation I got this job as 3D Artist doing arch renderings and now for almost 4 years been doing just that. Right now, its really tough for 3d arch people because there is no demand for us, and its almost impossible to get back into architecture because all I know is 3d. I can't even get an internship slave job because I don't have any experience in construction drawings...
I looked at other options like 3d gaming modeling and motion graphics, but nobody wants to see my 3d arch-renderings, and won't hire without previous experience at those other fields. I am pretty much stuck with you arch people, so you better get jobs soon so I can follow and be your pet.
What we as the architectural profession need is a union, not AIA. A union that will guarantee that all overtime needed to be paid no matter what position you hold. All jobs by the government should only be allowed to be performed in the US in it's entirety.
AIA had done nothing in the way of protecting those that work in the industry, the right of the architects. They had always sided with the owners never it's employee. It has to set a rule, I have heard from friends that still have jobs saying their company refuses to hire and are now making them work the load of two people and still pay them as if they were working 8 hrs. If you complain in these economic atmosphere you will most likely be the next on the chopping block. My friend said she had been able to see her kids or cook them diner, because when she get home they were all asleep, since her husband had been layoff they are working in fear of what the firm will do next.
AIA doesn't care, they just want to paddle BIM software for Autodesk. The software is not even closed for use. Now they are trying to shove the LEED down every ones throat.
Come on isn't it enough and time to put an end to the abuse, we should really for a union like all other profession. If anytime to do these, these is the time. Stop been proud of yourself, it's a service, truck drivers are treated better than architects; because they have a union that protects them. It dictates how many hours they are allow to drive, to protect them from abuse of companies and safe guard their family life.
Great so now we can pay AIA/NCARB dues and Union dues. Awesome!
I agree that the AIA is little more than a gentleman's club for the upper crust (i.e. firm owners) that does little more than help each other pat themselves on the back.
Up to this point I think they have been too focused on the practice of architecture - standardizing construction documents, cad standards, licensing, etc. - and have not really vested much interest in the people involved opting to leave that authority in the individual offices (many of which lack an HR department/person). Additionally they have ignored much larger issues facing the profession - use of 'architect' title in non-related fields, generating awareness and knowledge about the profession to outsiders - that have also plagued our career.
Clearly this system has now failed (or at the very least the pre-existing failures have now become more evident). But is the solution adding yet another enforcement agency?
To me it seems like the AIA has a responsibility to represent the entirety of the profession. I can only hope that this recession helps them to see how dated an organization they are running and they do some restructuring to bring this profession up to speed.
Believe me I've thought about it. Do have some potential clients too. It's just really tough to give up a steady paycheck and *relative* job security. How did you do it?
I agree that the AIA is little more than a gentleman's club for the upper crust (i.e. firm owners) that does little more than help each other pat themselves on the back.
Probably one of the better definitions I've seen in a while.
My problem with the AIA is that those letters have become synonymous with "Architect." As a registered Architect, on several occasions I've handed out a business card only to hear a client say, "No AIA? Are you an Architect?" Then I have to explain it's just a professional organization that charges crippling dues for someone at my income level. It's embarassing.
There is sure alot of grumbling in here about how bad the Profession is. One thing about a recession is it shakes out alot of people who really don't belong in the profession and those who hang in there are in a better place when the economy picks up.
I was talking to an old time contractor yesterday who has been thru a number of recessions in the construction industry and he said. In this economy you have to pay to do jobs. In effect he was saying that it is better to loose some money on a job than to not have any money rolling thru the door and having to down size to a point that your organization is emploding.
I think we pretty much can abandon AIA if a Union is form. They really are not in it for those who works the industry. If a union is formed it doesn't really need any fee, it should be operated as a non profit organization. And the manifesto should be as simple as "decency."
We as an architectural community have reach a critical mass of over 40% unemployment. It's a critical mass that can as a group demand changes. I am sure media and most average Joe's is not even aware of such high unemployment in our industry.
We should host a series of sit out in front of AIA and the Building Museum and make our voices heard. Not crouching in-front of the computer grunting.
how many white collar union are in the US? is there a lawyer or doctor's union?
i believe the largest union in the us is still the traditional blue collar workers.
are you suggesting that we go blue?
i hate to break it to anyone who thinks forming an union will save this profession in the long run, because:
1. unlike teachers' or builder's union, if all architects in the US go on strike, things will still eventually get built. we are not needed to save anyone's life or livelihood.
2. architect by nature does not work as a team, all that education gave us too much ego to work for someone long term.
3. this profession is dying, as if u didn't know. and globalization killed it. out sourcing to get cheaper labor is by nature something that a union do not condone, not to mention having foreign architecture taking US projects away.
4. culturally, architect's are not respected in the the US when compared to the rest of the world. so firm under bid jobs to get the jobs. we are all in the business of destroying our future business and a union is not going to stop what we are going to continue to do.
5. most architect i know thinks AIA is worthless, and if we can't even get some stupid clue to be worthwhile, how do u figure we can come together and have a union going?
6. a union = political power, how do we architect who lack the ability to be better businessman/woman expect to play a political role?
Not trying to save the industry, but to protect the rights of individual working in these field from abuse by the bosses.
If Union sounds bad in your ears we can always call it an association. But the important thing is to get organized as a single entity to protect individuals right to the work hours negotiated on the contract and any overtime must be compensated in ways that management learn to manage the works into overtime.
The industry may be dying, but whose fault is it. I would say the individual who work in it are too proud to think that we are different or better than the truck driver or the garbageman that provides you a service. It's just a job, in the end of the day we go home to our families and play with our kids. I had work for a company that forced everyone to work through Thanksgiving and Christmas and only in the end layoff everyone except the idiots that made us lose the job.
AIA is worthless as we have all establish, the question is "what next?" Union = power and that is what we need, to protect ourselves against the firms/bosses. I am not asking the group (union or association) to standardize wages or client relationship, but to protect the people who works in it.
If a individual need overtime money to help them out, it has to be their own choices. And refusal to pull ridicules overtime can not be grounds for any form of termination. If overtime is not compensated as overtime pay; it has to be compensated for mandatory time off or if layoff is to take place those times must be paid in full with interest.
These are just my thought and I believe that their are architects out there that may share my thoughts and have their own too. But we need a forum to talk about it and take action to fix a ongoing probelm plaguing our industry.
Blue collar, white collar call it what ever you like in the end of the day we go home feed our kids just like everyone else. And family should be above all things; lets band together and redefine our industry.
I'm not against the idea of a "union" for architects, in the USA. Honestly don't think it would work due to our nature and quirks. It's a far too competitive profession. Firms are constantly low-balling fees to get work. As someone mentioned earlier, the ego factor will kill any unified movement. I think the amount we're compensated (from client to architect) is paltry as well as the relationship at times with some clients, i.e. always wanting something for nothing, does not constitute for a healthy future for business. Yes, outsourcing sucks - but hey "it's business"...the expression of "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face" really starts to hit home. Anyway it would have been nice if most architects in this country grew some balls and didn't constantly give work away to appease their clients. Sorry but lawyers get paid for listening to your case over the phone. Our time IS money, it's too precious to waste on a yob that's "trying to get the most bang for the buck"....if we try to unify and stand up for what's right, there will be some cocksucker stabbing the rest of us in the back and whoring themself out. Of course, they'll be making money while we're blowing the dust and lint out of our wallets. Ain't life grand?!!?!???
Layoffs....layoffs......
@joe I don't know if I'd call it a "glow"...more of a harrowing sadness that permeates my being when I dwell on it for too long. I'm trying now to make light of it, and realize that I'm not the only one going through this.
Your point about the gap in architectural employment is an interesting one. In any other economic environment, I think that a potential employer would have good cause to question a candidate for having a job that wasn't in architecture. However, (like you mentioned) anything goes in this economy. I honestly don't believe that somebody is going to judge you during an interview for having a job outside of architecture while you waited for the economy to pick up.
After my first layoff, I applied for a systems administrator position because it was available and somewhat in my skill set. One of the first questions that I was asked was whether or not I'd miss architecture if I was hired. I told them I that it was more important to me to have a steady paycheck and be gainfully employed, but yes, I'd miss architecture. They seemed to be okay with that.
Joe, exactly. All these old windbags have been telling us not to feel ashamed about getting the axe but the truth of the matter is that they are all nothing but liars and will be judging everyone when they get interviewed the second they walk in that conference room. They could give two good goddamns less about the economy (that they don't even have a clue about in the first place) and how it has devastated the architecture profession and how they themselves have blatantly put the profession in danger of total extinction forever.
After all, we are talking about a generation that only cares about killing poeple for natural resources, invading countries that they pretend they care about (ehem national interests), and running corporations into the ground into the ground as long as they can make some money while ruining the lives of thousands.
Mark my words people, this is the only profession in the world where you can stay until midnight everynight every night, be ridiculously busy, and then get laid off a day later. And people call architecture a "dignified" profession??? Not when you have to deal with this kind nonsense at any given time. I've seen a lot of dear friends get the axe and they were some of the most talanted stalwarts you can imagine. The story is similar, you can be completely busy, 100% billable (lawyers are never 100% billable and sit around fucking around on the internet all day), and then get canned the next day while being escorted off the premises by police like criminals. Great way to tell our next generation that architecture is for them....
RTKL in DC/Baltimore/Dallas/Chicago/LA has been laying off people quietly for the last few weeks now... one at a time. Two weeks ago 24 people were laid off across three of the US offices.
Yesterday a few were laid off in the DC office.
I made it through 5 rounds of layoffs. You can now add me to the unemployment list.
Oh... I forgot to mention... just last week I worked 16 hours of overtime in two days. And I'm 7 months pregnant.
It's no secret though... RTKL is imploding on itself. There is no work. The studio I was in went from nearly 40 last summer, to 8: 2 VP's, 3 principals, 1 associate, and 2 staff. Please tell me why you need 2 VP's for 6 people. Or three principals for that matter.
The media is covering the unemployment situation by focusing on the middle to older aged people getting laid off and having a difficult time finding work. However in Architecture I've seen just the opposite. Firms that I'm familiar with have been axing production staff en masse, while retaining most of their older management staff. One reason I was given is that these people are the "rainmakers" and supposedly bring in work. I don't agree completely regarding many mid-level project managers, but I don't get to make those decisions. All I know is that I see a lot of very top heavy firms around right now. If the work doesn't pick up those highly paid guys are going to start dropping too. But if things do pick up there will be a need to actually get the work done...something PM's can't do, at least well. Essentially, if you don't get hired soon expect to see those old "windbags" at the unemployment office too.
After all, we are talking about a generation that only cares about killing poeple for natural resources, invading countries that they pretend they care about (ehem national interests), and running corporations into the ground into the ground as long as they can make some money while ruining the lives of thousands.
med, I understand your frusturation but by in large the owners of architecture firms aren't to blame for what you outline above. Politicians and Corporate CEO's yes, but even the presidents of the largest Arch firms in no way have the influence the CEO of a major bank has, or a Washington politician.
The story is similar, you can be completely busy, 100% billable .....and then get canned the next day while being escorted off the premises by police like criminals.
Not all firms are like this. Same goes for the excessive OT work. We are our own worst enemy when we accept that type of work place. Don't work for "free" just to get experience. Don't accept insane hours. Although it's hard to make yourself heard in this economy, in better times don't accept a poor working environment. Quit and go elsewhere.
they themselves have blatantly put the profession in danger of total extinction forever
What? We are on the down slope of a boom. Things will be slow...and for some time in my opinion. That said, there will always be a need for shelter and Architects aren't going anywhere. Smaller numbers, yes, but extinction, no.
+i, very sorry to hear that..... You have something even greater coming your way! :) -- something far greater than a bunch of self-serving bums. So keep your head up.
It's exactly what I was saying. this is the ONLY profession where you can be 100% billable and busy doing quality work, and then get sent into the gass chamber for no reason. And those assholes preach to US about loyalty....?
It happened at one of the big Atlanta-based firms in DC a while back. They already had multiple rounds of layoffs and then one day out of nowhere the entire production staff was laid off and the higher ups didn't realize that Middle-management and higher management knew absolutely nothing about producing anything in CAD or 3d. Since then things apparently picked up and few people have been rehired making about 40% less than what they were making.
A full-time McDonalds paycheck would put that pay to shame. And they clal this profession dignified? Again, I'm waiting for somene to actual prove that it is.
Then shut the hell up already and start your own firm. Jeesh this generation is the whiniest group I've ever heard. Try raising 2 kids in 1978 in the rust belt while finding your own clients if you think this is hard. You have no idea.
med., I suspect you have absolutely no idea what other professions are like. At McDonald's - and most companies - they make you pee in a cup and your employee locker rooms are subject to search at management whim. You say you're "waiting for someone to actually prove" that this profession can treat its young well, yet a dozen posters here have given evidence of exactly that and you refuse to acknowledge it.
And since med. has a chip on his shoulder big enough to block his vision, I'll say again to the young interns reading this: like in any profession, there are a lot of assholes, and a lot of really god people. A lot of those really good people own firms and treat their employees fairly and respectfully. I've worked at both kinds. Don't feel being abused by an employer is just the way this business is, there are other firms out there, as well as co-workers who aren't as cynical and grumpy as med. is.
Jack,
I agree with you.
If you think the pay isn't any good, start something on your own and see if you can do better.
Ha! That should say a lot of "good" people. A lot of "god" people makes it sound like there are assholes, then there are those who think they are god - I suspect the Venn diagram on those groups would be one circle.
There are a lot of good people and they are getting crushed to. I know it's hard to be young and unemployed in your field but could you imagine being 40 or 50 with a family and meeting a weekly payroll, paying payroll taxes even when there is no money coming in? You do this by mortgaging your own home, credit lines, kid's college savings and going without a paycheck. Now do all that and still go out of business.
I've been there and Im having a terrible year ( why you see me around here ). If it wasn’t for an investment my wife and I put into a suburban pizza parlor we would have no income this past year.
If you think getting laid off by your boss is bad getting laid off from your clients is worse.
*Disclaimer* I'm one of those "young interns" that everyone seems to be criticizing. I got my B.Arch. last May and I'm now in my second bout of unemployment.
I have to give props to liberty bell on this one. Yes, there are people in this profession with severe asshole syndrome, but there are also those who do value their younger employees and will help them grow.
I've worked for both types of people, and been unceremoniously laid off as well. Good, respectful bosses DO exist. It's the luck of the draw right now as to whether or not you're going to work for them. In a better economic situation, one has the enviable luxury of seeking out employers that treat employees well.
At my last job, it was a little less pleasant...but I kept my mouth shut and did my best. Because I wanted to keep my job. Not every single job you'll have in your life will be a great one; it's just the one you have until one that you suits you better comes along.
I spent 7 months looking for a job from Nov 2008 - May 2009. Although, i did go hang out in Brazil for 2.5 months, I still kept the job search up (the future is here! Now you too, can be unemployed & remote!) from a santa catarina beach. It was pretty good, 'til I started having trouble paying the local coconut vendors...
So i figured I'd either have to start selling coconuts, or find something in a real demeaning field. Since the economy had also taken it's toll on the Gigolo market, I really had to sink to lows - although, I had been there before...I just decided to bend over & enjoy it...I...I...tooka job...OH GAWD...as a ....Prrrrojj...ekkkk...tttt.....OH THE HORRIBLE THOUGHTS.....Managerrr!!!!!!
I can't complain, I suppose. But I just wonder when I'll ever get back to doing work that I really love. Project management is baby-sitting & it's pretty easy. However, it's just plain annoying - from this vantage point, you really see how bad the crybabies can be. Sometimes I'd rather be without the dough. But it's nice to pay the bills, esp. now. So, for the next few years (which is how long this 'recession' will last), I guess I'll do this stuff.
At least it's in the Caribbean.
AIA National laying off 25-40 people Monday Nov 9th.
That is a sign of things to come
It is a sad thing. I know they dismantled the incredible AIA national archive and library and sold off much of the history of my profession. I don't remember that being discussed.
WOW. We had only heard about one of the furloughs- there were two? It also seems like and many of the staff members with experience were let go or forced out.
I miss Norman's way of doing things- with an architect at the helm it felt like we were all in it together. Now the members are seen by as revenue generators. We will try for the free membership I think, but not worth it otherwise.
It's still scary out there....even if you didnt have to raise kids in the rust belt in 1978, its still scary. The stuff I'm doing now aint sexy, (school modernizations)...but its secure, and we are actually hiring....I saw a few sexier firms were hiring...but it just scares me too much to apply....staying put, will ride out what this horrible economic crapper did to our lives.
It's still scary out there....even if you didnt have to raise kids in the rust belt in 1978, its still scary. The stuff I'm doing now aint sexy, (school modernizations)...but its secure, and we are actually hiring....I saw a few sexier firms were hiring...but it just scares me too much to apply....staying put, will ride out what this horrible economic crapper did to our lives.
paycuts yesterday. better than layoffs...
wow tidal -- and yes better than layoffs for sure! in retrospect, I also know firms that reinstated salaries.
well, I'm riding things out. been lucky. doing much better than friends than have been out of work for a year now.
Another client backed out at the last minute due to funding shortfalls. If I lay myself off, how should I break the news? I am quite sensitive.
David
RTKL laid off more from their DC office last week. Don't know how many but their healthcare and commercial studios were part of the bloodletting.
i+ care to expand on your "RTKL is imploding on itself" statement?
Sorry to hear about your situation, but it's not an RTKL problem...everyone is hurting and the hurt will continue. I too have survived the same rounds and every week I think it's coming...but still hanging on!
yes, there is little or no work out there, but there are a few glimmers of hope.
One can argue that certain financial decisions made a few years ago behind closed doors (in amstedam) may have been the start of the end for a certain sector (RTKL) but I still have some trust in the company.
I was just at an event last week with many other firms (landscape, interiors, arch, etc.) and everyone is still hurting...layoffs have slowed/stabilized. The concensus was that the worst was behind us and things would start trickling back soon.
There are local firms that were once powerhouses with 200 employees and they are down to 15 vp/principals...yes, top heavy but certain clients have relationships... and the investment of keeping some people around is worth it. I've seen it first hand. A "talent challenged" person kept around because a client wanted them around that led to a project which kept 7 ppl employed for a year.
best of luck!
J3- I certainly don't disagree everyone is feeling this- that's pretty obvious, no? This was a statement directed to a particular sector within the firm that is having a great deal of difficulty getting ANY work- even the unglamorous, bread-and-butter jobs- in ANY country. I would not argue if the top heavy were kept around BECAUSE they had relationships that were profitable to keep clients- that is clearly a business direction that makes sense. But this is not the case... in fact in some situations within this firm, specifically within a certain sector, it is in spite of the "top heavy, talent challenged" that some projects existed for as long as they did. This is not a blanketed statement- there are some leaders within the firm who try to uphold what was so great to begin with... but the firm has drastically changed -not for the better- and the economy can't be blamed for ALL of the changes that have taken place there.
Many of us believed things would "trickle back soon" as well- unfortunately we saw the light when every single proposal or client contact has gone dead,and many large projects are quickly coming to a close (January/Feb. 2010). There is no backlog of work- sometimes full teams are left to twiddle their thumbs and wonder when the axe is going to fall- and how long can that last? 6 weeks? 3 months? (For us it had been a few months) It's a difficult time for everyone involved... but I would like to think that the business-directed minds, both in the Netherlands and within each office, are keen enough to recognize when the top is just too damn heavy, unprofitable, and suffocating the rest of the firm.
best of luck to you as well
+i, sorry to hear about your layoff. sounds like you were able to stick it out pretty much as long as possible.
I don't know one Architect that is working that hasn't taken a pay cut....and why I don't buy the "official" unemployment stats.
Even those that are working are in the hurt bag. Forced furloughs, forced into PT work, massive pay reductions, benefit cuts, etc.
we haven't gone to pay cuts for the staff. we did 'lay off' one person rather than go that route. no furloughs. only reduction in benefits was to suspend our (the firm's) matching contributions to 401k's.
aquapura- I agree. I had been lucky this go-around on the paycut front. Very lucky. But, I had already been laid off in May 2007. Moved for new job in August 2007. Paycut in March 2008 followed by layoff in May 2008. New job in July 2008 followed by paycut in November 2009.
Yeah, half the people I know in the profession are unemployed and I'd say that the other half are underemployed. And, by underemployed I mean paycut, part time etc.
I've been pretty resilient, still managed to get my license in 2008 and LEED done in 2009. But, financially things are starting to add up.
I really feel sorry for you architects, but its even much worse for us, the 3D guys. The guys that are below you, not only our bread is being outsourced to China, but also we are the first ones to be laid off when things are bad... What hurts me know even me is to watch the rendering quality drop so much, I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw new renderings this year, how crappy things become, how acceptable crap has become, unbelievable. It moved from photoreal to flat cheap crap in just 1 year..... 5 years of 3D advancement lost in just 1 year :(
I don't see any end to this bad economy, the only end is probably the collapse of the dollar, maybe with new currency we will get a fresh start in this country...
hmmm, did I just kill this thread? or is it over, no more lay offs?
zen, do you have an architecture degree? Are you pursuing being an architect and using rendering as a way to get started in the field?
I'm not asking to be superior or anything, just wondering what you feel your options are. If you are pursuing being an architect, you would have to stay in the field, obviously. If you aren't, I would think you could do graphics in other fields, like science modeling, tv or game graphics, etc. I understand those fields aren't exactly bustling either, though.
Hardly....I think a lot of people just want to try and forget what it's really like out there.
financially things are starting to add up
Count me in that camp. Ten + years experience in arch firms, Registered Architect and LEED AP, now scratching my head thinking about how I never imagined myself in this place right now.
It's hard enough to start out in this profession, but I was finally getting a foothold and feeling established when this economy hit. With a dramatic reduction in pay/benefits and real world expenses that don't dip, i.e. mortgage, things feel worse today than they did when I was fresh out of college.
Still, I'm thankful to be "underemployed" vs. the alternative these days. That said, I'm not optimistic about my generation (30-something gen x'ers) of Architects. Those above us, the boomers, aren't retiring fast enough, especially now with their 401k's so beat up. Without a booming economy there is no room for promotion without someone above exiting the profession.
And of all the stories in this economy about different cuts firms are making, not one has included a principal/partner stepping down. Most firms are grossly top heavy. I also think the line that principal's are the "rain makers" bringing in the work is largely exaggerated, especially with longstanding repeat clients.
Meanwhile talking amongst the older Architects that I trust none have any plans to retire and make room for new blood (see 401k comment above). Actually most are trying to hire anyone with 30+ years experience in hopes of them poaching clients from their current employers. Organic growth in this business is dead.
Sorry about my cynical Monday morning attitude.
aqua -- your world and mine must be entirely different - our firm dumped two principals (one a founder) in the past two years because a) neither made money for the firm and b) neither really brought in enough new work to warrant their cost. In a real sense, the other principals "pitched a fit" because they were tired of subsidizing those deadbeats while the others were seeking work anywhere it could be found and doing whatever was necessary to break even.
I just read about the closure of CSD Architects in Baltimore. They were known for solid, yet economically-conscious institutional projects.
Here is the Business Journal article
Sorry, aqua, but most architects don't start hitting their stride, design-wise, until their 50s. Why would they retire right when they're starting to achieve something worthwhile?
When Frank Gehry retires, that's the age at which most architects will start dropping off. Hell, isn't Niemeyer in his 90s? Or even 100?
Don't wait around for the odler generation to retire. Figure out a new way to practice, that's what this field needs.
lb - niemeyer is indeed 101....
as to firms letting principals go: know for a fact that one of the firms doing the best in town (at least until this quarter) let one of their principals go last week, along with 11 others. sounded like a pretty 'vertical' slice.
and for every one of those, there are 10 others who are very nervous, in their larger firms, about the long term pay cuts they're taking to try and make it through. granted, their base pay may be higher, but my guess is their situation isn't too dissimilar in that they've worked their way up, have a lifestyle they were comfortable in, and are now struggling to make sure that doesn't implode.
i do share aqua's concern about what this recession will do the profession overall. something i've thought about a lot recently, considering i'm supposed to close out a professional practice class tomorrow (what the future firm will be like. yikes.)
LB - I see your point when it comes to good designers, but I don't think that the "stride" you are talking about also applies to project management skills....handling contracts, client relationships, etc. Believe it or not most Architect's don't actually work until the day they die. Sure, the famous ones do, but most retire in their 60's like everyone else.
Additionally, call me crazy but I want to sign drawings someday. I've never heard of any firm where the production staff was signing the drawings. That's the realm of the principal architect and one reason I want to get there.
I really don't mind working in the trenches on the production work from SD through CA. It's good experience. That said, the money and respect in this profession is on the other side.
You're right, aqua. Then again, you can stamp drawings as soon as you go out and start your own firm, right? Go for it! (Assuming you're licensed, of course.)
@liberty - I have Bachelor's in arch degree, but after graduation I got this job as 3D Artist doing arch renderings and now for almost 4 years been doing just that. Right now, its really tough for 3d arch people because there is no demand for us, and its almost impossible to get back into architecture because all I know is 3d. I can't even get an internship slave job because I don't have any experience in construction drawings...
I looked at other options like 3d gaming modeling and motion graphics, but nobody wants to see my 3d arch-renderings, and won't hire without previous experience at those other fields. I am pretty much stuck with you arch people, so you better get jobs soon so I can follow and be your pet.
What we as the architectural profession need is a union, not AIA. A union that will guarantee that all overtime needed to be paid no matter what position you hold. All jobs by the government should only be allowed to be performed in the US in it's entirety.
Maybe the AIA should just do their job.
AIA had done nothing in the way of protecting those that work in the industry, the right of the architects. They had always sided with the owners never it's employee. It has to set a rule, I have heard from friends that still have jobs saying their company refuses to hire and are now making them work the load of two people and still pay them as if they were working 8 hrs. If you complain in these economic atmosphere you will most likely be the next on the chopping block. My friend said she had been able to see her kids or cook them diner, because when she get home they were all asleep, since her husband had been layoff they are working in fear of what the firm will do next.
AIA doesn't care, they just want to paddle BIM software for Autodesk. The software is not even closed for use. Now they are trying to shove the LEED down every ones throat.
Come on isn't it enough and time to put an end to the abuse, we should really for a union like all other profession. If anytime to do these, these is the time. Stop been proud of yourself, it's a service, truck drivers are treated better than architects; because they have a union that protects them. It dictates how many hours they are allow to drive, to protect them from abuse of companies and safe guard their family life.
Enough!!!!!
Great so now we can pay AIA/NCARB dues and Union dues. Awesome!
I agree that the AIA is little more than a gentleman's club for the upper crust (i.e. firm owners) that does little more than help each other pat themselves on the back.
Up to this point I think they have been too focused on the practice of architecture - standardizing construction documents, cad standards, licensing, etc. - and have not really vested much interest in the people involved opting to leave that authority in the individual offices (many of which lack an HR department/person). Additionally they have ignored much larger issues facing the profession - use of 'architect' title in non-related fields, generating awareness and knowledge about the profession to outsiders - that have also plagued our career.
Clearly this system has now failed (or at the very least the pre-existing failures have now become more evident). But is the solution adding yet another enforcement agency?
To me it seems like the AIA has a responsibility to represent the entirety of the profession. I can only hope that this recession helps them to see how dated an organization they are running and they do some restructuring to bring this profession up to speed.
Believe me I've thought about it. Do have some potential clients too. It's just really tough to give up a steady paycheck and *relative* job security. How did you do it?
I agree that the AIA is little more than a gentleman's club for the upper crust (i.e. firm owners) that does little more than help each other pat themselves on the back.
Probably one of the better definitions I've seen in a while.
My problem with the AIA is that those letters have become synonymous with "Architect." As a registered Architect, on several occasions I've handed out a business card only to hear a client say, "No AIA? Are you an Architect?" Then I have to explain it's just a professional organization that charges crippling dues for someone at my income level. It's embarassing.
There is sure alot of grumbling in here about how bad the Profession is. One thing about a recession is it shakes out alot of people who really don't belong in the profession and those who hang in there are in a better place when the economy picks up.
I was talking to an old time contractor yesterday who has been thru a number of recessions in the construction industry and he said. In this economy you have to pay to do jobs. In effect he was saying that it is better to loose some money on a job than to not have any money rolling thru the door and having to down size to a point that your organization is emploding.
I think we pretty much can abandon AIA if a Union is form. They really are not in it for those who works the industry. If a union is formed it doesn't really need any fee, it should be operated as a non profit organization. And the manifesto should be as simple as "decency."
We as an architectural community have reach a critical mass of over 40% unemployment. It's a critical mass that can as a group demand changes. I am sure media and most average Joe's is not even aware of such high unemployment in our industry.
We should host a series of sit out in front of AIA and the Building Museum and make our voices heard. Not crouching in-front of the computer grunting.
If any time, these is it.
how many white collar union are in the US? is there a lawyer or doctor's union?
i believe the largest union in the us is still the traditional blue collar workers.
are you suggesting that we go blue?
i hate to break it to anyone who thinks forming an union will save this profession in the long run, because:
1. unlike teachers' or builder's union, if all architects in the US go on strike, things will still eventually get built. we are not needed to save anyone's life or livelihood.
2. architect by nature does not work as a team, all that education gave us too much ego to work for someone long term.
3. this profession is dying, as if u didn't know. and globalization killed it. out sourcing to get cheaper labor is by nature something that a union do not condone, not to mention having foreign architecture taking US projects away.
4. culturally, architect's are not respected in the the US when compared to the rest of the world. so firm under bid jobs to get the jobs. we are all in the business of destroying our future business and a union is not going to stop what we are going to continue to do.
5. most architect i know thinks AIA is worthless, and if we can't even get some stupid clue to be worthwhile, how do u figure we can come together and have a union going?
6. a union = political power, how do we architect who lack the ability to be better businessman/woman expect to play a political role?
Niro,
Not trying to save the industry, but to protect the rights of individual working in these field from abuse by the bosses.
If Union sounds bad in your ears we can always call it an association. But the important thing is to get organized as a single entity to protect individuals right to the work hours negotiated on the contract and any overtime must be compensated in ways that management learn to manage the works into overtime.
The industry may be dying, but whose fault is it. I would say the individual who work in it are too proud to think that we are different or better than the truck driver or the garbageman that provides you a service. It's just a job, in the end of the day we go home to our families and play with our kids. I had work for a company that forced everyone to work through Thanksgiving and Christmas and only in the end layoff everyone except the idiots that made us lose the job.
AIA is worthless as we have all establish, the question is "what next?" Union = power and that is what we need, to protect ourselves against the firms/bosses. I am not asking the group (union or association) to standardize wages or client relationship, but to protect the people who works in it.
If a individual need overtime money to help them out, it has to be their own choices. And refusal to pull ridicules overtime can not be grounds for any form of termination. If overtime is not compensated as overtime pay; it has to be compensated for mandatory time off or if layoff is to take place those times must be paid in full with interest.
These are just my thought and I believe that their are architects out there that may share my thoughts and have their own too. But we need a forum to talk about it and take action to fix a ongoing probelm plaguing our industry.
Blue collar, white collar call it what ever you like in the end of the day we go home feed our kids just like everyone else. And family should be above all things; lets band together and redefine our industry.
I'm not against the idea of a "union" for architects, in the USA. Honestly don't think it would work due to our nature and quirks. It's a far too competitive profession. Firms are constantly low-balling fees to get work. As someone mentioned earlier, the ego factor will kill any unified movement. I think the amount we're compensated (from client to architect) is paltry as well as the relationship at times with some clients, i.e. always wanting something for nothing, does not constitute for a healthy future for business. Yes, outsourcing sucks - but hey "it's business"...the expression of "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face" really starts to hit home. Anyway it would have been nice if most architects in this country grew some balls and didn't constantly give work away to appease their clients. Sorry but lawyers get paid for listening to your case over the phone. Our time IS money, it's too precious to waste on a yob that's "trying to get the most bang for the buck"....if we try to unify and stand up for what's right, there will be some cocksucker stabbing the rest of us in the back and whoring themself out. Of course, they'll be making money while we're blowing the dust and lint out of our wallets. Ain't life grand?!!?!???
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