Saw in layoffs today thread that P+W laid off across the board firm wide. Can anyone confirm. Heard from some one that it was a rumor. So what offices if any laid off and how many.
By the way Christmas is right around the corner and even though the Dow has gone up a little conditions still have only improved marginally - depends which way you look at it. My question is this time last year this thread was exploding - with people posting like crazy. Now it seems almost dead. Christmas usually brings the typical slow down and with conditions not vastly improved what is going to happen for the end of the year? More layoffs as a Christmas present? What? Anyone out there? Speculations, comments.
Heard Morphosis and Asymptote cleaned house lately. I would expect to see a few more of the starachitects offices doing the same as projects come to completion and the amount of hi-profile competitions continues to dwindle. Not to mention Dubai...
Overall seems like most offices have gotten to the point of either just scraping by or letting a small number go. I've also started noticing a trend of places advertising for employees only to resend the position a week later so there is still hesitation from both the offices and clients about the recovery.
"It will never be the same again," said Michael A. McCarthy, a partner in Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, one of the largest firms in New York and the nation. "Beginning work in this city in 1964, I've had the chance to see a lot of ups and downs. This one, to me, is without a doubt the worst."
"WE are never going to reach the employment levels we demanded in the 80's," said Martin D. Raab, senior managing partner of Haines Lundberg Waehler in Manhattan.
"About 80 percent of the class doesn't know what it's doing for the summer -- people are planning on flipping burgers or waiting tables." That was the assessment of Neil Platt, who has just finished his first year in Columbia University's graduate architecture program.
I will confirm that the Perkins+Will rumor is FALSE and did NOT have a firmwide layoff. Their DC office is struggling but the firm in general is in pretty reasonable shape all things considered.
So at what point does it become too expensive to try and be an Architect does anyone have tipping point when they will throw in the towel and do something else?
No Layoffs in Central Illinois of note most firms are reportedly busy but not adding staff. Mergers are going down here and there but no new jobs.
So at what point does it become too expensive to try and be an Architect does anyone have tipping point when they will throw in the towel and do something else?
Recent grads....anyone....anyone? Talked to some of my old professors and they estimate from what they've heard is that single digit percentages of grads from 2009 are employed in traditional architecture firms. Also reported that most of the 2008 grads that were working are now out of work.
The few jobs I have heard advertised are all asking for 5+ years experience. The young are in for years upon years of getting shut out. Doesn't take too long and people give up and find an alternative career. A "safety job" isn't supposed to be permanent.
All of our competitors here in DC are very busy right now. A few are even hiring include my firm.
The mood is definitely more optimistic than was a year ago when everyone was getting axed left and right.
As for the young -- it's 1991 all over again but even worse. They were doing this thing back then too where just about every young architect was cut or denied entry into the profession. And many went on to do other things and never looked back. This is why you noticably see an entire generation of architects missing from the work force. In my firm for example, it's me and a group of late-twenties, early-thirty-somethings and then a slew of people 50 or above.
The same thing will happen again this time with dire consequences. The older people will retire and their wisdom and knowledge will go with them. There will be VERY FEW people to fill their shoes because that older generation refused to empower the younger generation both in the early 90s and now...
The profession is really open-ended at this point. no telling what will happen down the road.
I have to post again that what med. is saying is in some way true but is also hyperbole. This phrase is constantly used that "an entire generation" of architects went missing in 1991. Two to three years of minimal traditional employment is not a generation. A generation is 20 years; in academic terms it's at least 10.
Yes, some architects who graduated in 1990-91 went on to other fields. But of my friends from the class of 1990, 80% of us are working in the field, in traditional architectural practice.
It's not so dramatic as the phrase "a generation" suggests. Yes, it's tough now, and it was back then too. And I totally agree with med. that the profession is really open-ended at this point, but that has more to do with alternative technologies for construction and a growing lack of general understanding and respect for the role of the architect in the process than it does with the people who are graduating right now not being able to find a traditional job. Young grads now are, if anything, in a better position to find a niche for themselves in the coming profession than an old dinosaur like myself is.
for the first time in a long time the aia email newsletter has job listings in kentucky - not just one but two! that must mean something's happening.
...and don't worry, lb, if you ever decide to shift gears. from what i see, the folks at our experience level are still sought-after - when any seeking is going on, that is.
When do you throw in the towel? Well in 79-81 about 40% of the architects in the north east and midwest were out of work and took jobs wherever they could, I knew guys working in gas stations to make ends meet. If you were lucky enough to still be employed though the wage had better earning power than today, at least among entry to mid level architects. The early 1990s were a time of falling fees, little to no work and overpopulation in the architectural workforce. Like LB said theres not a "missing generation" per se, but there are very few of the 40 year olds around. One aspect may be it was tuff to break in, but another is that there were just better paying jobs for these grads. The property management field aggressively courted young architects in this time, and many were making 100+K/ year in the 90's. Who wouldn’t turn down the money at 25? So to answer your question people will throw in the towel when they need the money and have a better offer, or become too old to deal with the ups and downs of being an architectural employee. I started my own practice in the mid 80s after being underemployed in the early 80s and I have enjoyed every minute of it. The money while not great is comfortable. I do work on average 60-70 hours a week or more ( until this year that is ) but I enjoy it. If your out of things to do theres always archinect. Going forward it will be hard to make decent profits in this profession for the small guys I will not lie. Theres so many architects out there giving it away and just as many clients and builders simply looking for a stamp. Specialty fields like health care or shopping centers will be attractive but cyclical. High design will always be lucrative but flighty - it comes and goes as sure as the fashion changes.
Advice -
Avoid areas of high concentration of architects. I went to a condo meeting last night, 4 architects showed up out of 20 people. I was an observer, one spoke on his opinion for exterior renovations ( free assessment mind you) and 2 came to also offer their services.
You have a better chance of making a run of it in a small or rural city.
Play nice. Dont withdraw from the mainstream social circles and become an outsider. The people with the work are the frat boys and mean girls many make fun of this forum. Befriend them, you need them.
Get involved early. You should be on every board, non profit and neighborhood group you can get on. By helping out you show your valuable as a person and then others will assume your valuable as an architect too. Remember your not the only one with a stamp in town.
Marry rich - unfortunately its true. I thought it was a joke when I was young and the old timers all said it. But I've watched over the years and marrying above your social circle or income group is the best way to jump into higher orbit. Sad - but true.
that older generation refused to empower the younger generation
This is not a new thing. IDP in part is an effort to put pressure on the leaders in this profession to impart knowledge and responsibility to the younger generation. The effectiveness is debatable.
The real problem I see is that principal level people are very paranoid of lawsuits, reprimands by state licensing boards, etc. Giving an young architect more responsibility then they can probably handle and letting them learn from mistakes just doesn't happen anymore. (Unfortunate as I believe you learn the most from mistakes.)
Intensive 1 on 1 training is very expensive and time consuming so that too doesn't happen very much. Instead it seems firms like to outside hire people with 20+ years experience where they don't have to "invest" the training expense. This also leads to the huge amount of staff turnover during the good times.
Problem with this is I agree with Med, every firm I've worked for was very thin in the middle aged range. Not a lot of 40-somethings in architecture around here, yet those of us in our mid 20's to mid 30's are still denied what I'd consider adequate training to take over management/principal level responsibility.
Some smaller firms that I'm familiar with have very attentive ownership and have clearly defined succession plans and are actively training those people to take their places. Still, from what I've see, this is the exception, not the norm.
This article was linked to on this site and I bookmarked it. Every new architect should read it. This is what the customers think of us and rather bluntly lays out the challenge most of us face. It's sad that the challenge is being thrown out by a Boston blogger and not the AIA or Design School Registration Boards.
[url=http://www.boston.com/realestate/news/blogs/renow/2009/03/some_good_reaso.html
]ditch the architect[/url]
I always thought there weren't a lot of 40somethings around in firms because I have seen very little accommodation of upward movement in this profession. If you want to start a family and continue moving up in the world, there needs to be someone at the top willing to expand the practice, make room for you to expand your role, make you a partner, etc. All I've ever seen is the opposite : partners zealously guarding their roles, not allowing others to design (even when they don't have time for it), and no desire to grow a firm or pass leadership on to the next generation. If you are getting up there in age, and you look ahead and see nothing but more of the same project management (even when you are bringing work in), are you going to just stay there forever at your same level or are you going to go start your own firm (or leave the profession and make money in real estate)? I have met a lot of 40something developers and commercial real estate brokers, is all I'm saying.
Jack, the comments on that article fully refute him over and over again. There will always be idiots with blogs but I am glad there are still plenty of smart people to expose their jackassery. No worries about the status of the profession here -- I hear those kinds of "no architect needed!" comments all the time, but more frequently I hear praise and admiration for architects.
All I'm saying is that architecture as a "profession" is a rather undignifying profession compared to all the others and it is in danger of becoming even more so unless things change -- particularly when archite ctsditch the 1950s business model mentality.
Seriously people -- I can't think of any other profession that fires people like architects do (mass layoffs where employess cannot even return to their workstations to retreive their belongings - instead carted off the premises like criminals) you know like some of the senior level principals love to brag about here on archinect.
If that kind of rubbish behavior doesn't scare the hell out every aspiring young architect, it should! All of the young people out of school heard of the unthinkable situations their compatriots endured in all the offices this past year -- you know being laid off right in the middle of a lunch and learn, etc, etc. Instead of making it possible to encourage this next generation and intertwine their creativity and energy with experienced and wiser mentors, available discourse is poluted by people in cahoots with ugly corporate politics. And they seem to bandy about it without even a trace of skeptisism and rigor.
The reality is that whether anyone likes it or not the younger generations will lead the profession down the road especially when architecture will need to meet the needs of a rapidly expanding global population. Hopefully that generation will get it right.
two observations - firms may not have a lot of 40 somethings for a variety of reasons - the 91 recession is one; there are quite a few (my wife included) who got out in their mid to late 30's to raise the family and never returned; that age is also the upper limit of when people are going to leave larger firms to start their own practices; finally, yes, some people see that there are other more lucrative 'alternatives' to traditional practice and leave to explore those. i know of at least 4 people in town who have stepped away from larger firms to start sustainable design consulting firms.
upward movement in a firm can be an issue but i've actually seen more of the opposite - larger firms who have people moving up who leave for one of the reasons above. they're trying to groom people but other things win out. for example, at my previous firm (a very well regarded firm with about 120 people), 5 people on the 'partner track' are now:
heading their own firm (me and my partner)
made principal but left to work for a large furniture manufacturer
principal who left to head the planning dept. for the most prestigious university in town
his right hand associate, who left to go to the same university
one who left to go work for a non-profit sustainable design group.
so, is this the firm's fault? a lot of people would kill to be a partner there but it doesn't always work out so cleanly. in each case, knowing the players involved, everyone had very different motivations.
this is a hard profession, no doubt. however, all i can say about how other professions treat their young: you've obviously never seen how some technology firms work....
All I'm saying is that architecture as a "profession" is a rather undignifying profession compared to all the others
Please explain why? That's a pretty broad statement.
I can't think of any other profession that fires people like architects do (mass layoffs where employess cannot even return to their workstations to retreive their belongings
Over the past year I've heard of many nasty layoff stories. For the most part I believe they are hyped up. That said I just read the other day about a company (not architecture) conducting a fire drill and upon returning to the building those being laid off were not allowed inside.
you know like some of the senior level principals love to brag about here on archinect.
I haven't noticed anyone on Archinect bragging about letting anyone go. Actually I've seen just the opposite, where people have said they agonized over having to let staff go.
The reality is that whether anyone likes it or not the younger generations will lead the profession down the road
Yes, that is true. I think principal level people will work later in life to make up for 401k losses and push younger generations about of major roles for a period of time. Still, I'm sure any principal sitting in the corner office knows that the 30-somethings will someday be running this profession.
"you know like some of the senior level principals love to brag about here on archinect."
- I agree with aquapura - I don't recall ever seeing a senior level professional gloat here on archinect over the need to initiate layoffs - most posts from such senior professionals were lamenting the need and expressing difficulty over such hard decisions - med, you're way off base on this one.
the fundamental problem with an outlook like med's is that it's all focused around him and his generation - look out for us, mentor us, allow us the unfettered creativity. which is really surprising, given that all the demographically oriented management theory espouses that the younger generations are the least 'me' oriented...
I don't understand how anybody owes anybody else anything for the greater good of the profession, that's too abstract for me.
On this generation divide, I wish on the one hand, that older generations architect wouldn't complain so much about what the schools teach and don't teach (after all, they depend on younger people to do pretty renderings to give them an edge or other things that are really time consuming) and for the younger people to take it more upon themselves to learn about the not so fun parts of the profession and put themselves in the shows of someone with more responsibility to at least understand how decisions are made.
In other words, I think this model of mentoring is a bit outdated and leads to bitterness on both sides. Until a while ago, firms thought hard about investing in young people with mentoring because they would leave in 2 years time anyway which lead to the the fact that the only way to get rid of that "junior" next to your name was to hop firms.
I work in a firm where we were encouraged to pick mentors and go to lunch and talk about architecture and goals and so on. A waste of time, a formality in terms of "mentoring" and a walk on a rope in terms of office politics. I've learned most in the shortest amount of time by bugging people and offering to help with something in exchange for knowledge. Then it's all fair and I can take my lessons anywhere without any hard feelings.
i was hoping that this thread had died...
i see the principals bragging about letting people go meme is back; I agree with the others, I've never seen anyone here say that.
my firm small (less than 15 people) let 2 or 3 people go yesterday/today. it was the first round at this place. the owner had basically bent over backwards to keep everyone on. but the work wasn't coming fast enough. locally, i'm hearing about friends getting interviews recently but as of yet i having seen them land the job. forunately (for me), i survived. Revit, LEED and licensure saved my behind...
My ex-firm laid off employees that had been in a week-long Revit training course. There was no rhyme or reason. I think if you have Revit, license, LEED, etc. in a small firm you're probably in good shape. Now being out for six months my concern is that prospective firms will say I've been out of the loop too long (six months, wow - things move fast in this high-speed world of ours...) and won't hire me.
I have a friend that's an accountant who's been out longer - he's blown up his resume as well as rethinking his career choices. We both compared notes and it seems that prospective employers have a list of about ten to twelve attributes they want in a new employee. You can lack one, but you better have the rest.....tough times.
I don't blame anyone for getting pissed and bitter. You've unfortunately earned that right......
blackflag - i can't speak for any of my colleagues, but there is very little chance that anyone worth working for would look at length of time being laid off as a negative. way too many good people have been laid off these days. biggest problem is that most people are nervous as hell about hiring full time - at least i take that responsibility very personally (probably too much so). projects that seem rock solid have flaked out, some clients are slow, there's still a ton of concern about work in the pipeline 4-6 months from now... all these things weigh much more on my mind than how long anyone's been laid off.
that said, be proactive during this time. yes, keep looking for work, but do something else that might make a small 'dent' - volunteer to work with a non-profit, help your neighborhood with something, learn some new skills. whatever floats your boat, but what i'd personally (for whatever it's worth to you) like to see is that pro-active type initiative. it's what will almost certainly make for a good employee...
@blackflag- I agree w/your no rhyme or reason comment because I know... Now, I'm at a small firm so I honestly feel that I can say what I did. We only have two LEED AP's. They've asked me to do research when we've pursued a LEED project. The project I'm pursuing at the moment we've been doing in Revit. At a larger firm, someone else with those skills could win out. And, in my case (in the past) have won out.
I want to get my LEED but now things have changed so I'm still studying and preparing for it so when I am employed...HOPEFULLY I will have the chance to work with a LEED AP (right, that's how it works now???)....
Anyway, be active, if not proactive. Be there for your families. Be there for your neighbors. Kids' school. Your church, temple or mosque. Do something positive with your life. I'm seriously thinking about changing careers (on a temp basis) just because my savings is not going to last forever.
Revit training. LEED. PMP certification. All on my current list of "hot" items to do/pursue. I've even dabbled in art, the creative side of me can never be taken down a notch...I must sketch, build, etc...
Just don't sit around waiting for Oprah to come on.....
While not always the most optimistic thread on archinect, I think this discussion has been one of the more honest and engaging in recent years...and it ties in well with the realities of the profession these days.
For what I see in England. First was the private sector that was dead, so practices were relying on the public sector. Now it seems the private sector is recovering (though very little improvement yet), but with the crisis the public sector is now dying a few months after the private sector... so no more public projects! It's hard to be positive :)
"Job prospects still in doubt despite increase predictions
16 October, 2009
The spectre of job losses continues to hang over the profession despite practices predicting an increase in private housing and commercial work, the latest RIBA Future Trends survey shows."
Publishing in our Field is also in trouble, in Chicago the 48 year old institution the Prairie Avenue Book Store has closed. I suspect that as budgets are squeezed people will spend less on magazines and books, we may lose a few major publications. Have you noticed how thin Architectural Record is lately. May of these publishers are hanging by a thread, and the fact that there are no sales taxes for Amazon are killing off the brick and mortar stores.
Group Goetz Architects just laid off 4 people last week! http://www.gga.com/
BUT THEY ARE STILL HIRING!!! Just won a billion dollar contract and they let people go? If anyone is in the DMV area and really needs a job submit your info. One word of caution - the four that were laid off were not lazy or incompetent. No real idea why they were laid off. Just a warning!!!!! What else is going out there?
I know a lot of you are tired of this thread and I am too. But during the height of layoffs just the shear post and reading who was laying off was a good indicator of what was happening out there. I know things still aren't right, but after hearing about something like this I have to wonder. Some out there are trying to hold on to staff as long as they possibly can - but it seems that others are using this as an excuse to get rid off or purge staff for whatever reason it may be, WHILE they actively see the potential of the pool of unendless candidates with experience to choose from.
Keep this thread going - while GGA just laid off they are still hiring.
Group Goetz Architects just laid off 4 people last week! http://www.gga.com/
BUT THEY ARE STILL HIRING!!! Just won a billion dollar contract and they let people go? If anyone is in the DMV area and really needs a job submit your info. One word of caution - the four that were laid off were not lazy or incompetent. No real idea why they were laid off. Just a warning!!!!! What else is going out there?
I know a lot of you are tired of this thread and I am too. But during the height of layoffs just the shear post and reading who was laying off was a good indicator of what was happening out there. I know things still aren't right, but after hearing about something like this I have to wonder. Some out there are trying to hold on to staff as long as they possibly can - but it seems that others are using this as an excuse to get rid off or purge staff for whatever reason it may be, WHILE they actively see the potential of the pool of unendless candidates with experience to choose from.
Keep this thread going - while GGA just laid off they are still hiring.
The % decline at large firms is just staggering. Sure, small firms have similar percentages by just letting one or two people go, but for a large firm of over 100 people to drop over 60% of their staff in just over a year is unbelieveable.
It's not surprising when I hear that unemployment among Architects is running somewhere above 40%. I firmly believe that outside of another major bubble economy, the only thing that will improve this unemployment situation is when the Boomers start retiring en mass.
A major Chicago firm specializing in large scale residential development nationally has gone from 80 people to 10. Aqua your right, even during the boom the wages and compensation did not really keep up. The AIA published a report this year saying architects had one of the largest professional salary compensation gains of any profesion in the last 10 years. It should be evident to anyone who works as an architect to be untrue. The biggest gains came from highly specialized firms' owners and partners. Also, rural areas saw a large influx of work from companies expaning nationaly and their fees rose to be closer to par with established urban areas. But I wouldnt call this a major leap forward concidering most 30- something architects I've known are, after struggling during the boom, in another profesion already or laid off and actively looking for another career despite the "gains" the AIA survey said we've made. I've been fortunate enough to be in a partnership during some very good years but it's no free ride for us either. The higher up you go in this racket the more exspensive it gets. What it really all comes down to is imho, things are just getting too dam exspensive - labor, materials, land and services. And this is a direct result of a weakened currency. It took 30 years, but we've managed to piss away our spending power. And the first things to go our the things people find to be luxeries which includes us in the residential marketplace.
don't you feel that special glow of being in the group though? membership perks include interviewers scoffing at you, judging you, acting oblivious to the situation and asking stupid questions.
I think I'm just going to take the broken stints of experience I have off my resume because it seems to be hurting me more than doing good at this point. who would think experience to be bad? anything goes in this economy I suppose. I'm just going to say I was in another field for a few years and decided to revisit architecture. people just dont get it when they see more time unemployed than employed. egh. worth a try at least. what would sound good. photography? hmm
does anybody else find it impossible to attain federal access health insurance while on health insurance? the denial letter says you make over 906$ via DES unemployment compensation therefor you are DENIED.
Layoffs....layoffs......
Saw in layoffs today thread that P+W laid off across the board firm wide. Can anyone confirm. Heard from some one that it was a rumor. So what offices if any laid off and how many.
By the way Christmas is right around the corner and even though the Dow has gone up a little conditions still have only improved marginally - depends which way you look at it. My question is this time last year this thread was exploding - with people posting like crazy. Now it seems almost dead. Christmas usually brings the typical slow down and with conditions not vastly improved what is going to happen for the end of the year? More layoffs as a Christmas present? What? Anyone out there? Speculations, comments.
Heard Morphosis and Asymptote cleaned house lately. I would expect to see a few more of the starachitects offices doing the same as projects come to completion and the amount of hi-profile competitions continues to dwindle. Not to mention Dubai...
Overall seems like most offices have gotten to the point of either just scraping by or letting a small number go. I've also started noticing a trend of places advertising for employees only to resend the position a week later so there is still hesitation from both the offices and clients about the recovery.
"It will never be the same again," said Michael A. McCarthy, a partner in Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, one of the largest firms in New York and the nation. "Beginning work in this city in 1964, I've had the chance to see a lot of ups and downs. This one, to me, is without a doubt the worst."
"WE are never going to reach the employment levels we demanded in the 80's," said Martin D. Raab, senior managing partner of Haines Lundberg Waehler in Manhattan.
"About 80 percent of the class doesn't know what it's doing for the summer -- people are planning on flipping burgers or waiting tables." That was the assessment of Neil Platt, who has just finished his first year in Columbia University's graduate architecture program.
Funny it was in 1992.
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/17/realestate/recession-is-ravaging-architectural-firms.html
I will confirm that the Perkins+Will rumor is FALSE and did NOT have a firmwide layoff. Their DC office is struggling but the firm in general is in pretty reasonable shape all things considered.
Perkins+Will rumor is TRUE. I was one of 10% laid off from Chicago Office...heard other offices had layoffs as well.
Dang. Before too much longer all that is going to be left is Perkins and Will.
So at what point does it become too expensive to try and be an Architect does anyone have tipping point when they will throw in the towel and do something else?
No Layoffs in Central Illinois of note most firms are reportedly busy but not adding staff. Mergers are going down here and there but no new jobs.
Recent grads....anyone....anyone? Talked to some of my old professors and they estimate from what they've heard is that single digit percentages of grads from 2009 are employed in traditional architecture firms. Also reported that most of the 2008 grads that were working are now out of work.
The few jobs I have heard advertised are all asking for 5+ years experience. The young are in for years upon years of getting shut out. Doesn't take too long and people give up and find an alternative career. A "safety job" isn't supposed to be permanent.
All of our competitors here in DC are very busy right now. A few are even hiring include my firm.
The mood is definitely more optimistic than was a year ago when everyone was getting axed left and right.
As for the young -- it's 1991 all over again but even worse. They were doing this thing back then too where just about every young architect was cut or denied entry into the profession. And many went on to do other things and never looked back. This is why you noticably see an entire generation of architects missing from the work force. In my firm for example, it's me and a group of late-twenties, early-thirty-somethings and then a slew of people 50 or above.
The same thing will happen again this time with dire consequences. The older people will retire and their wisdom and knowledge will go with them. There will be VERY FEW people to fill their shoes because that older generation refused to empower the younger generation both in the early 90s and now...
The profession is really open-ended at this point. no telling what will happen down the road.
I have to post again that what med. is saying is in some way true but is also hyperbole. This phrase is constantly used that "an entire generation" of architects went missing in 1991. Two to three years of minimal traditional employment is not a generation. A generation is 20 years; in academic terms it's at least 10.
Yes, some architects who graduated in 1990-91 went on to other fields. But of my friends from the class of 1990, 80% of us are working in the field, in traditional architectural practice.
It's not so dramatic as the phrase "a generation" suggests. Yes, it's tough now, and it was back then too. And I totally agree with med. that the profession is really open-ended at this point, but that has more to do with alternative technologies for construction and a growing lack of general understanding and respect for the role of the architect in the process than it does with the people who are graduating right now not being able to find a traditional job. Young grads now are, if anything, in a better position to find a niche for themselves in the coming profession than an old dinosaur like myself is.
for the first time in a long time the aia email newsletter has job listings in kentucky - not just one but two! that must mean something's happening.
...and don't worry, lb, if you ever decide to shift gears. from what i see, the folks at our experience level are still sought-after - when any seeking is going on, that is.
When do you throw in the towel? Well in 79-81 about 40% of the architects in the north east and midwest were out of work and took jobs wherever they could, I knew guys working in gas stations to make ends meet. If you were lucky enough to still be employed though the wage had better earning power than today, at least among entry to mid level architects. The early 1990s were a time of falling fees, little to no work and overpopulation in the architectural workforce. Like LB said theres not a "missing generation" per se, but there are very few of the 40 year olds around. One aspect may be it was tuff to break in, but another is that there were just better paying jobs for these grads. The property management field aggressively courted young architects in this time, and many were making 100+K/ year in the 90's. Who wouldn’t turn down the money at 25? So to answer your question people will throw in the towel when they need the money and have a better offer, or become too old to deal with the ups and downs of being an architectural employee. I started my own practice in the mid 80s after being underemployed in the early 80s and I have enjoyed every minute of it. The money while not great is comfortable. I do work on average 60-70 hours a week or more ( until this year that is ) but I enjoy it. If your out of things to do theres always archinect. Going forward it will be hard to make decent profits in this profession for the small guys I will not lie. Theres so many architects out there giving it away and just as many clients and builders simply looking for a stamp. Specialty fields like health care or shopping centers will be attractive but cyclical. High design will always be lucrative but flighty - it comes and goes as sure as the fashion changes.
Advice -
Avoid areas of high concentration of architects. I went to a condo meeting last night, 4 architects showed up out of 20 people. I was an observer, one spoke on his opinion for exterior renovations ( free assessment mind you) and 2 came to also offer their services.
You have a better chance of making a run of it in a small or rural city.
Play nice. Dont withdraw from the mainstream social circles and become an outsider. The people with the work are the frat boys and mean girls many make fun of this forum. Befriend them, you need them.
Get involved early. You should be on every board, non profit and neighborhood group you can get on. By helping out you show your valuable as a person and then others will assume your valuable as an architect too. Remember your not the only one with a stamp in town.
Marry rich - unfortunately its true. I thought it was a joke when I was young and the old timers all said it. But I've watched over the years and marrying above your social circle or income group is the best way to jump into higher orbit. Sad - but true.
This is not a new thing. IDP in part is an effort to put pressure on the leaders in this profession to impart knowledge and responsibility to the younger generation. The effectiveness is debatable.
The real problem I see is that principal level people are very paranoid of lawsuits, reprimands by state licensing boards, etc. Giving an young architect more responsibility then they can probably handle and letting them learn from mistakes just doesn't happen anymore. (Unfortunate as I believe you learn the most from mistakes.)
Intensive 1 on 1 training is very expensive and time consuming so that too doesn't happen very much. Instead it seems firms like to outside hire people with 20+ years experience where they don't have to "invest" the training expense. This also leads to the huge amount of staff turnover during the good times.
Problem with this is I agree with Med, every firm I've worked for was very thin in the middle aged range. Not a lot of 40-somethings in architecture around here, yet those of us in our mid 20's to mid 30's are still denied what I'd consider adequate training to take over management/principal level responsibility.
Some smaller firms that I'm familiar with have very attentive ownership and have clearly defined succession plans and are actively training those people to take their places. Still, from what I've see, this is the exception, not the norm.
This article was linked to on this site and I bookmarked it. Every new architect should read it. This is what the customers think of us and rather bluntly lays out the challenge most of us face. It's sad that the challenge is being thrown out by a Boston blogger and not the AIA or Design School Registration Boards.
[url=http://www.boston.com/realestate/news/blogs/renow/2009/03/some_good_reaso.html
]ditch the architect[/url]
I always thought there weren't a lot of 40somethings around in firms because I have seen very little accommodation of upward movement in this profession. If you want to start a family and continue moving up in the world, there needs to be someone at the top willing to expand the practice, make room for you to expand your role, make you a partner, etc. All I've ever seen is the opposite : partners zealously guarding their roles, not allowing others to design (even when they don't have time for it), and no desire to grow a firm or pass leadership on to the next generation. If you are getting up there in age, and you look ahead and see nothing but more of the same project management (even when you are bringing work in), are you going to just stay there forever at your same level or are you going to go start your own firm (or leave the profession and make money in real estate)? I have met a lot of 40something developers and commercial real estate brokers, is all I'm saying.
Jack, the comments on that article fully refute him over and over again. There will always be idiots with blogs but I am glad there are still plenty of smart people to expose their jackassery. No worries about the status of the profession here -- I hear those kinds of "no architect needed!" comments all the time, but more frequently I hear praise and admiration for architects.
All I'm saying is that architecture as a "profession" is a rather undignifying profession compared to all the others and it is in danger of becoming even more so unless things change -- particularly when archite ctsditch the 1950s business model mentality.
Seriously people -- I can't think of any other profession that fires people like architects do (mass layoffs where employess cannot even return to their workstations to retreive their belongings - instead carted off the premises like criminals) you know like some of the senior level principals love to brag about here on archinect.
If that kind of rubbish behavior doesn't scare the hell out every aspiring young architect, it should! All of the young people out of school heard of the unthinkable situations their compatriots endured in all the offices this past year -- you know being laid off right in the middle of a lunch and learn, etc, etc. Instead of making it possible to encourage this next generation and intertwine their creativity and energy with experienced and wiser mentors, available discourse is poluted by people in cahoots with ugly corporate politics. And they seem to bandy about it without even a trace of skeptisism and rigor.
The reality is that whether anyone likes it or not the younger generations will lead the profession down the road especially when architecture will need to meet the needs of a rapidly expanding global population. Hopefully that generation will get it right.
two observations - firms may not have a lot of 40 somethings for a variety of reasons - the 91 recession is one; there are quite a few (my wife included) who got out in their mid to late 30's to raise the family and never returned; that age is also the upper limit of when people are going to leave larger firms to start their own practices; finally, yes, some people see that there are other more lucrative 'alternatives' to traditional practice and leave to explore those. i know of at least 4 people in town who have stepped away from larger firms to start sustainable design consulting firms.
upward movement in a firm can be an issue but i've actually seen more of the opposite - larger firms who have people moving up who leave for one of the reasons above. they're trying to groom people but other things win out. for example, at my previous firm (a very well regarded firm with about 120 people), 5 people on the 'partner track' are now:
heading their own firm (me and my partner)
made principal but left to work for a large furniture manufacturer
principal who left to head the planning dept. for the most prestigious university in town
his right hand associate, who left to go to the same university
one who left to go work for a non-profit sustainable design group.
so, is this the firm's fault? a lot of people would kill to be a partner there but it doesn't always work out so cleanly. in each case, knowing the players involved, everyone had very different motivations.
this is a hard profession, no doubt. however, all i can say about how other professions treat their young: you've obviously never seen how some technology firms work....
Please explain why? That's a pretty broad statement.
I can't think of any other profession that fires people like architects do (mass layoffs where employess cannot even return to their workstations to retreive their belongings
Over the past year I've heard of many nasty layoff stories. For the most part I believe they are hyped up. That said I just read the other day about a company (not architecture) conducting a fire drill and upon returning to the building those being laid off were not allowed inside.
you know like some of the senior level principals love to brag about here on archinect.
I haven't noticed anyone on Archinect bragging about letting anyone go. Actually I've seen just the opposite, where people have said they agonized over having to let staff go.
The reality is that whether anyone likes it or not the younger generations will lead the profession down the road
Yes, that is true. I think principal level people will work later in life to make up for 401k losses and push younger generations about of major roles for a period of time. Still, I'm sure any principal sitting in the corner office knows that the 30-somethings will someday be running this profession.
aqua - great post.
- I agree with aquapura - I don't recall ever seeing a senior level professional gloat here on archinect over the need to initiate layoffs - most posts from such senior professionals were lamenting the need and expressing difficulty over such hard decisions - med, you're way off base on this one.
the fundamental problem with an outlook like med's is that it's all focused around him and his generation - look out for us, mentor us, allow us the unfettered creativity. which is really surprising, given that all the demographically oriented management theory espouses that the younger generations are the least 'me' oriented...
just saying...
I don't understand how anybody owes anybody else anything for the greater good of the profession, that's too abstract for me.
On this generation divide, I wish on the one hand, that older generations architect wouldn't complain so much about what the schools teach and don't teach (after all, they depend on younger people to do pretty renderings to give them an edge or other things that are really time consuming) and for the younger people to take it more upon themselves to learn about the not so fun parts of the profession and put themselves in the shows of someone with more responsibility to at least understand how decisions are made.
In other words, I think this model of mentoring is a bit outdated and leads to bitterness on both sides. Until a while ago, firms thought hard about investing in young people with mentoring because they would leave in 2 years time anyway which lead to the the fact that the only way to get rid of that "junior" next to your name was to hop firms.
I work in a firm where we were encouraged to pick mentors and go to lunch and talk about architecture and goals and so on. A waste of time, a formality in terms of "mentoring" and a walk on a rope in terms of office politics. I've learned most in the shortest amount of time by bugging people and offering to help with something in exchange for knowledge. Then it's all fair and I can take my lessons anywhere without any hard feelings.
ha, ha, except, where do I take my lessons to now?
i was hoping that this thread had died...
i see the principals bragging about letting people go meme is back; I agree with the others, I've never seen anyone here say that.
my firm small (less than 15 people) let 2 or 3 people go yesterday/today. it was the first round at this place. the owner had basically bent over backwards to keep everyone on. but the work wasn't coming fast enough. locally, i'm hearing about friends getting interviews recently but as of yet i having seen them land the job. forunately (for me), i survived. Revit, LEED and licensure saved my behind...
"Revit, LEED and licensure saved my behind..."
these guys are like gold in many firms.
My ex-firm laid off employees that had been in a week-long Revit training course. There was no rhyme or reason. I think if you have Revit, license, LEED, etc. in a small firm you're probably in good shape. Now being out for six months my concern is that prospective firms will say I've been out of the loop too long (six months, wow - things move fast in this high-speed world of ours...) and won't hire me.
I have a friend that's an accountant who's been out longer - he's blown up his resume as well as rethinking his career choices. We both compared notes and it seems that prospective employers have a list of about ten to twelve attributes they want in a new employee. You can lack one, but you better have the rest.....tough times.
I don't blame anyone for getting pissed and bitter. You've unfortunately earned that right......
is anyone that IS??
blackflag - i can't speak for any of my colleagues, but there is very little chance that anyone worth working for would look at length of time being laid off as a negative. way too many good people have been laid off these days. biggest problem is that most people are nervous as hell about hiring full time - at least i take that responsibility very personally (probably too much so). projects that seem rock solid have flaked out, some clients are slow, there's still a ton of concern about work in the pipeline 4-6 months from now... all these things weigh much more on my mind than how long anyone's been laid off.
that said, be proactive during this time. yes, keep looking for work, but do something else that might make a small 'dent' - volunteer to work with a non-profit, help your neighborhood with something, learn some new skills. whatever floats your boat, but what i'd personally (for whatever it's worth to you) like to see is that pro-active type initiative. it's what will almost certainly make for a good employee...
@blackflag- I agree w/your no rhyme or reason comment because I know... Now, I'm at a small firm so I honestly feel that I can say what I did. We only have two LEED AP's. They've asked me to do research when we've pursued a LEED project. The project I'm pursuing at the moment we've been doing in Revit. At a larger firm, someone else with those skills could win out. And, in my case (in the past) have won out.
I want to get my LEED but now things have changed so I'm still studying and preparing for it so when I am employed...HOPEFULLY I will have the chance to work with a LEED AP (right, that's how it works now???)....
Anyway, be active, if not proactive. Be there for your families. Be there for your neighbors. Kids' school. Your church, temple or mosque. Do something positive with your life. I'm seriously thinking about changing careers (on a temp basis) just because my savings is not going to last forever.
Revit training. LEED. PMP certification. All on my current list of "hot" items to do/pursue. I've even dabbled in art, the creative side of me can never be taken down a notch...I must sketch, build, etc...
Just don't sit around waiting for Oprah to come on.....
While not always the most optimistic thread on archinect, I think this discussion has been one of the more honest and engaging in recent years...and it ties in well with the realities of the profession these days.
Things are not improving in the UK...
For what I see in England. First was the private sector that was dead, so practices were relying on the public sector. Now it seems the private sector is recovering (though very little improvement yet), but with the crisis the public sector is now dying a few months after the private sector... so no more public projects! It's hard to be positive :)
http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=3151252
"Job prospects still in doubt despite increase predictions
16 October, 2009
The spectre of job losses continues to hang over the profession despite practices predicting an increase in private housing and commercial work, the latest RIBA Future Trends survey shows."
Publishing in our Field is also in trouble, in Chicago the 48 year old institution the Prairie Avenue Book Store has closed. I suspect that as budgets are squeezed people will spend less on magazines and books, we may lose a few major publications. Have you noticed how thin Architectural Record is lately. May of these publishers are hanging by a thread, and the fact that there are no sales taxes for Amazon are killing off the brick and mortar stores.
Group Goetz Architects just laid off 4 people last week!
http://www.gga.com/
BUT THEY ARE STILL HIRING!!! Just won a billion dollar contract and they let people go? If anyone is in the DMV area and really needs a job submit your info. One word of caution - the four that were laid off were not lazy or incompetent. No real idea why they were laid off. Just a warning!!!!! What else is going out there?
I know a lot of you are tired of this thread and I am too. But during the height of layoffs just the shear post and reading who was laying off was a good indicator of what was happening out there. I know things still aren't right, but after hearing about something like this I have to wonder. Some out there are trying to hold on to staff as long as they possibly can - but it seems that others are using this as an excuse to get rid off or purge staff for whatever reason it may be, WHILE they actively see the potential of the pool of unendless candidates with experience to choose from.
Keep this thread going - while GGA just laid off they are still hiring.
Group Goetz Architects just laid off 4 people last week!
http://www.gga.com/
BUT THEY ARE STILL HIRING!!! Just won a billion dollar contract and they let people go? If anyone is in the DMV area and really needs a job submit your info. One word of caution - the four that were laid off were not lazy or incompetent. No real idea why they were laid off. Just a warning!!!!! What else is going out there?
I know a lot of you are tired of this thread and I am too. But during the height of layoffs just the shear post and reading who was laying off was a good indicator of what was happening out there. I know things still aren't right, but after hearing about something like this I have to wonder. Some out there are trying to hold on to staff as long as they possibly can - but it seems that others are using this as an excuse to get rid off or purge staff for whatever reason it may be, WHILE they actively see the potential of the pool of unendless candidates with experience to choose from.
Keep this thread going - while GGA just laid off they are still hiring.
just lost at least three more here... down to 36 from 110 (9/08)
The % decline at large firms is just staggering. Sure, small firms have similar percentages by just letting one or two people go, but for a large firm of over 100 people to drop over 60% of their staff in just over a year is unbelieveable.
It's not surprising when I hear that unemployment among Architects is running somewhere above 40%. I firmly believe that outside of another major bubble economy, the only thing that will improve this unemployment situation is when the Boomers start retiring en mass.
A major Chicago firm specializing in large scale residential development nationally has gone from 80 people to 10. Aqua your right, even during the boom the wages and compensation did not really keep up. The AIA published a report this year saying architects had one of the largest professional salary compensation gains of any profesion in the last 10 years. It should be evident to anyone who works as an architect to be untrue. The biggest gains came from highly specialized firms' owners and partners. Also, rural areas saw a large influx of work from companies expaning nationaly and their fees rose to be closer to par with established urban areas. But I wouldnt call this a major leap forward concidering most 30- something architects I've known are, after struggling during the boom, in another profesion already or laid off and actively looking for another career despite the "gains" the AIA survey said we've made. I've been fortunate enough to be in a partnership during some very good years but it's no free ride for us either. The higher up you go in this racket the more exspensive it gets. What it really all comes down to is imho, things are just getting too dam exspensive - labor, materials, land and services. And this is a direct result of a weakened currency. It took 30 years, but we've managed to piss away our spending power. And the first things to go our the things people find to be luxeries which includes us in the residential marketplace.
well now I am officially part of a special group that has been laid off twice in 1 year!
I'm getting pretty sick of being on the unemployment boat. Although it seems like it's more of a cruise ship minus the fun.
you name is rather appropriate then, eh?
.... .- -. --. .. -. - .... . .-. .
-.-- --- ..- / - .... .. -. -.- / -.-- --- ..- / .- .-. . / ... --- / -.-. .-.. . ...- . .-.
.. / .- -- / --- ..-. / -.-. --- ..- .-. ... . / .-. . ..-. . .-. .-. .. -. --. / - --- / .--. --- ... - .- .-..
.. / .- -- / .-. . .- .-.. .-.. -.-- / ... --- .-. .-. -.-- / -.-- --- ..- / .-.. --- ... - / -.-- --- ..- .-. / .--- --- -... / -... -.-- / - .... . / .-- .- -.-- .-.-.- / .... --- .--. . / -.-- --- ..- .-. / ... .. - ..- .- - .. --- -. / .. -- .--. .-. --- ...- . ...
^ haha. thanks.
Sorry to hear about your situation friend. There will be another day.
@.._. I feel your pain. I got handed my second layoff in 10 months in August. It really is a special kind of frustration.
don't you feel that special glow of being in the group though? membership perks include interviewers scoffing at you, judging you, acting oblivious to the situation and asking stupid questions.
I think I'm just going to take the broken stints of experience I have off my resume because it seems to be hurting me more than doing good at this point. who would think experience to be bad? anything goes in this economy I suppose. I'm just going to say I was in another field for a few years and decided to revisit architecture. people just dont get it when they see more time unemployed than employed. egh. worth a try at least. what would sound good. photography? hmm
does anybody else find it impossible to attain federal access health insurance while on health insurance? the denial letter says you make over 906$ via DES unemployment compensation therefor you are DENIED.
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