Aqua--yeah its a sad sad world out there. young architects struggling with families and mortgages. older higher ups losing it all. It sucks, and yes we've covered that ad nauseam. Sure it frustrates me, sure I feel bad for folks in tight situations, but...
At some point you have to stop crying over spilled milk. I mean really.
Thought you could raise a family on Architect wages? Guess not, time to move on.
Thought you could keep the smoke and mirrors alive long enough to retire in tahiti? Guess not, time to move on.
Look, we are still intrinsically tied to the most corrupt, crooked, cut throat industry in the world. The buildign industry and real estate development is the single biggest money laundering operation on earth. I can't think of another industry where russian mafia, south florida cocaine giants, oppressive middle east oil regimes, crooked wall street tycoons, corrupt politicians, yakusa, combined with the millions of wanna be high rollers all coalesce into one giant pool.
Architects are front and center of this. We are the naive, the idealistic, the altruists...maybe. Nevertheless, we are bound. Forget financial crises for a minute, even with all cylinders pumping we are in a dubious and risky profession.
Anyone who thinks or expected otherwise is just naive, uniformed, or both.
I don't like that he is charging $0.05 when most people willing to talk to him would probably have at least a quarter in their pocket. He's leaving money on the table. Of course he can afford "The North Face" so maybe things aren't so bad.
cadcroupier, great post re: seeing the reality and maybe moving on, and file you too for your honesty.
PJN26 good for you using FedEx to help you weather this storm and emerge as a smarter, highly desirable BIM specialist! Excellent decision.
I'm serving on a panel discussion next week about finances in the practice of architecture. I'm planning to point the student audience to this thread and the other layoff one as a painful crash course in the business.
Also: I adore the Architecture 5 cents guy. Smart, humorous way to network in a crowd of potential clients (farmer's market). And imsleepy, North Face is nothing; check out 66 d. North for uber high end outdoor gear. The best.
The 5 cent guy rocks. I don't know him personally, but I did walk by his booth last sunday morning in Ballard. I didn't stop because he was engrossed talking with a couple about their project. But I can verify he is still at it!
the north face? this guy work @ callison or nbbj before he got axed?
that being said, i'm pretty sure i'm too shy to sit out in a booth all day and talk about architecture for 5cents. now if they walked in my office or home, i could talk for hours. wtf is that about, agoraphobia?
Look, we are still intrinsically tied to the most corrupt, crooked, cut throat industry in the world.
Not sure I agree about that one. Most architects I know aren't closely tied to DC politicians.
I don't want to sound whiny about mid-level people getting the shaft in this recession. I know the upper management is taking it hard too, and trying really hard to save their businesses right now. My complaint is I've heard more than a few complaints from the bosses about how their 401's are decimated, etc. Yes, but then again their mortgages are paid off, their kids are already through college and on their own, and even with pay cuts they still are doing relatively well, all things considered. I only speak for the handful of firms I'm closely tied to, but I presume it's a similar story everywhere.
All this reminds me of when I first graduated and was job hunting out east. Had several interviews and a couple offers. At one place I was very interested in I asked for a slightly higher wage because cost of living was far more than the mid-western town I was coming from. The principal laughed and said, and I quote, "I have dozens of resumes from Ivy grads living off trust funds that'll do this job for nothing. You already have the highest offer we can afford to give."
Unfortunately for me I work this job for my lively hood as well my passion.
aqua - there is merit to what you write above. but, pain is pain, from whatever source.
IMO, the unfair posts above are those that fail to recognize the extraordinarily widespread distribution of real pain in this recession. Pain is not the province of any single group, nor is the pain of one group necessarily the result of another group's willful acts.
file - I agree that everyone is feeling the pain and my apologies if I've been unfair in my comments. Pain is always relative to your own circumstances and of course I find my own situation to be the worst because I'm experiencing it.
Cadcroupier obviously I disagree with such generalization of our age group.
What are you saying here, that 20 and 30-semethings don't have real lives and families and kids? Many of the people I know in the profession who have been affected are people in this category -- newlyweds, people starting families, etc. Their lives are completely destroyed right now. Don't believe me? I've seen first hand all the horror-stories that would just make you sick to the stomach. Just a few months ago, my friend at a prominent NYC firm had his child and was laid off that same week. He has absolutely nowhere to go. Where do you think he and his family are going to get money from -- what's the next step for this guy? His only crime is that he was a 20-something. He did absolutely nothing wrong but he is now forced to suffer for someone else's fuck up.
I'm not a selfish person -- I'm speaking for many people who have shattered lives right now because of other peoples' greed and selfishness. Yes, I'm single and have no children -- should I really be happy about that? I think it kinda sucks actually. I want to settle down sometime! Many of you guys have made enough excuses about this whole thing -- "this just happens and cyclical" and all this other bullshit, but this America! We are one of the richest and greatest nations on earth -- things shouldn't break down like this! This is the worse recession ever yet we are abundant in natural resources, we have the greatest universities, people continue to flock to America, and we have the human resources -- things like shouldn't happen and people should just stop making excuses.
I'm saying he didn't drive the company into the ground, he didn't fuck the economy up, he do anything to the company -- only a hard working employee trying to live.
Yes, I'm single and have no children -- should I really be happy about that? I think it kinda sucks actually. I want to settle down sometime!
You're not the only one who has a life on hold right now. Nobody I know is thinking about starting a family right now. Those I know that are in the market for buying a house are afraid to do so for chance they might lose their jobs. Most of my co-workers have either cancelled vacation plans or never made plans all together. Many people are even dropping AIA membership trying to save $$. The only "happy hours" I've been to lately are for friends that have been laid off.
... he didn't drive the company into the ground, he didn't fuck the economy up, he do anything to the company -- only a hard working employee trying to live.
You know what, med? I didn't drive my company into the ground, I didn't fuck up the economy, I didn't do anything bad to the company -- yet I still found it necessary to terminate a number of "hard working employees trying to live". And, it hurt like hell to do so.
I ask you again - who are you blaming and what do you want them to do? You seem to be looking for a demon where one doesn't exist.
Okay since you are in the position of tossing people out into the streets, I'm very currious about something.
Why do you lay people off in masses? Isn't it already a humiliating enough experience to lose your job and to add insult to injury, you have to herd everyone together to face their slaughter.
Who says I "lay people off in masses"? When it's necessary to reduce staff, I and at least one of my partners sit down individually with each affected person to deliver the news and to offer what support we can.
However, consider the dynamics of a large lay-off ... say, on the order of 15 people or so. As soon as you start calling people into offices or conference rooms, the word spreads through the firm like wildfire. If a firm tries to meet individually with a largish number of people, it literally can take hours. All the while, everybody else is sitting around terrified they'll be next. I was on the receiving end of that agony years ago ... ripping the band aid off quickly has its merits and is, in many ways, much more humane.
"Bad things happen to good people" - whether it be layoffs, illness or accidents. In my experience, most firms try to do these things as humanely as possible - but that still doesn't make it easy on either party.
I think the current generation has forgotten about the real Depression the national global one that lead to much suffering beyond people’s financial security. I would, if ever placed in the position to mentor, encourage all young professionals to be much more debt adverse than we have been in recent times. The generation that came to age after the oil embargo got drunk on easy credit. Mortgages, installment plans and credit cards were abused. We will all have to reconcile the fact that the US is in debt both as a nation and individually. Debt is a weakness and a threat that needs to be carefully managed so as to not overtake us. Most of my education and subsequent debt awareness came from parents and relatives who know how to out last hard times. Frugality is rarely taught in schools k-12 or college. How huge of a change it would be if NAAB required all design studios to incorporate realistic budgeting limits into their projects? Designers are often ignorant of financial tools and consequences by choice or by default. Kids need to learn the importance of compounded interest, and that bankruptcy has some very profound and far reaching consequences.
Med. your posts are becoming so absurdly confrontational that I'm having a hard time taking you seriously anymore.
to those that are feeling sorry for themselves and looking to blame others, may I remind you of the fact that
you volunteered to do any or all of the following:
A. ignore well documented warnings about compensation and volatility in the industry.
B. take on debt to pursue Architecture education despite warnings.
C. enter the profession despite warnings.
D. have kids and start a family.
E. take on a mortgage.
F. not maintain savings by living within the means to do so.
E. not invest time in a personal network of freelance opportunities.
G. continue to search for architecture jobs despite advise to move on.
Sorry to appear insensitive. I happen to fall into many of those categories myself. I truly do feel for those that have been dealt a difficult hand, but the simple fact still remains: we made the bed....
while I shudder at the thought of being on the same side of an issue as med., I think it wrong to blame the folks who have lost their jobs.
I know quite a few who don't have lots of debt, who haven't been blind to the risks of working in this profession, and who worked hard and did good work ... and who still lost their jobs.
they lost their jobs and suffer because the economy collapsed - not because they were greedy or stupid and not because their firms were selfish or incompetent.
Now you understand what kind of Hell many of my younger colleagues have gone through. Basically of all the horror stories I've heard, the most common are when people are subjected to layoffs from the cold unscrupulous rantings of insensitive people like cadcrouupier.
But in all fairness, the last firm I was at, the principals who had to let everyone go was in absolute tears and has been pretty broken ever since.
more like: you lost your job? Tough shit. Move on and don't dwell in failure.
Its the move on part that I think some continue to struggle with, month after month whining about all the injustices perceived to be aimed soley at you or your peers.
What is it with the entitlement complex?
Stop looking for others to provide you with sustenance, just to turn around and blame them when they take it away.
You worked hard, did all the right things and you got paid. So what? Did you earn some inalienable right to life? You did a job and got paid, thats it, job over, time to move on.
med, at least you worked (i don't know for how long) and had a job. some of us have been begging for the last year and a half to even land the first job.
It's going to be difficult to explain to all these brand new master's students that when they graduate in 1.5-3 years, they probably won't get a job at all.
In fact, I'd say a good deal of people who graduated from college in the last two years don't have jobs or have minimum wage jobs. It would be hard to prove this since the labor department doesn't count these people.
Right there with you rockandhill. Graduated last May, no job, but it's been a fun ride. Cuts this past week in a larger firm in Indy.
PS. I know this topic is very vague in it's title with "layoffs...layoffs...", but can everyone that wants to participate in the pissing contest not post their pathetic opinions about who's to blame and all that other bullsh*t? This thread was much better before when it focused on recent layoffs and provided advice. Thanks ladies and gents.
Well, all people are communicable. Un-employees who lost their job recently definitely understand this is a big recession, and it's a time layoff happens. We all understand that firms need to keep the in-out flows balanced to survive.
But ,where does the anger come from?
Because some people are just evil. I agree that some bosses are good people and layoff is the last option they would take. But one of my friends, who is a very talent guy, was laidoff from a corporation firm just because the studio head doesn't believe that he is a yes-person to him. So he cleaned him out of his studio to address his"imperial" power. Actually it's not necessary to do so because my friend was still working on another project out of his studio. We have to agree that there are some control freaks who love to fuck up others life, especially in some large firms. And it is where the anger come from, unfairness.
It is a tough time for everyone now. And it is a time we can see ugly faces present here and there. It is a virtue to understand and to forgive. But you can not expect everyone would have the same view. If someone wants to express their anger, archinect definitely is a good place to ease the stress. So, my opinion is, go ahead, blame your boss, blame bankers, blame anyone you believe he deserves...
Go find the person who ever suggested to you that life was fair and complain to him/her.
I'll offer you this bit of hard-earned wisdom.
LIFE ISN"T FAIR.
Cancer isn't fair.
Disease isn't fair.
Distribution of resources isn't fair.
Distribution of talent isn't fair.
Distribution of opportunities isn't fair.
Racism isn't fair.
Sexism isn't fair.
I could go on for volumes, but if you don't get the point by now, you never will.
If you had ever been told the odds of your survival to be in months, you might get some perspective. I pity your situation (and have been there myself) but more so I pity your immaturity. As long as you keep blaming others, you will not be able to move forward. Your future is not in the hands of others; it is in your hands. Do something with it. Every moment you spend venting is a moment you are wasting, throwing away, poisoning.
You may not be able to control the winds, but you can set your sails to take you where you want to go.
I'm still gainfully employed (knock on wood) and am pretty busy actually. Don't believe me? Its saturday today and I'm in the office working right now. If the axe falls on my, I've already got myself emotionally prepared -- it'll suck, I'll have to make a lot of changes and takes a few steps backwards, but I think I've got a reasonable contingency plan.
But I've been with two other previous firms and have seen the mass slaughter go down. Every day I get an email from freinds, former college classmates, former coworkers all saying that the axe fell and they were caught on the wrong end. It's tragic because many of these people don't know what to do now and many of their former employers didn't offer any word of support or encouragement. Trust me, they did nothing wrong -- they were very hard workers and extremely talented people! My frustration comes from seeing this day-to-day, and having to wait my turn if/when the time comes. Furthermore, my frustration comes from the fact that we have heard all of the excuses and all of the "reasoning" behind the collapse of firms by principals. So far they have done all of the talking and we have only had to listen. This is a good outlet to let them know what's on our minds and the reality of what they are really doing to us.
Oh and CM I actually had to roll my eyes and giggle at that silly and boring list that you concocted. I bet you just love to hear yourself preach to people and I'm sure you have ALL the answers. By enlarge, what you are telling people is that racism, sexism, and all that stuff isn't fair but you just need to put up with it because that's just the way it is. So by default you're telling us that all the movements in equality and civil rights just aren't the way to go. Slavery? It's fair, but it's tjust the way it is -- you're black -- you're a slave. Nevermind the brave people who faught the white supremacist government -- never mind the underground railroad. This is exactly what you're telling people.
That I drank a bottle of white wine last night before bed and woke up this morning with the whiskey farts. I didn't even touch beer or hard liquor. If anyone needs some paint stripped off some furniture... put it near my ass.
Understanding the recession for those who not economists or economic development specialists:
How to Make a Grilled Cheese Sandwich
Are you out of all your regular snack foods? Do you need a simple meal that you can eat on the go? Do you need a delicious snack that won’t be deemed “junk” by your mother? If you answered “yes” to any of these questions, then you’ve come to the right place. Within this webpage is a tasty and simple recipe for the classic food: grilled cheese.
1. Obtain a frying pan of correct size for the number of sandwiches you can handle at a time.
2. Put pan on stove over medium heat until hot. During heating, begin slicing cheese and getting bread.
3. Butter pan, or the outside of each slice of bread, whichever you prefer, and put one side of sandwich on pan with cheese on top. Then add the top slice of bread right away. Lower the heat and cover to help the cheese melt.
4. Check to see if bread is brown after no more than two minutes, although more time may be needed for desired results. When bread is brown enough, flip.
5. Know that the second side should brown faster so be prepared to check it in no time. When it is cooked to your satisfaction, turn off the stove, put your sandwich on a plate, cut into dodecagons, and enjoy.
Seriously, this is almost as worst as listening to engineers thinking they have the entitlement to talk about social program reform or the dynamics of culture because they're engineers.
Why hasn't anyone sat down any engineers lately to tell them that their very scant education outside of maths and physics pretty much makes them totally inept retards on any subject that isn't about beams and pipes?
I think that this thread has reached the depths of stupidity.
And on that note I must announce that one of my former firms let go of 150 company-wide on Thursday. :-)
It is really tough out there, not just for architects/designers/construction. Competition for the survival jobs is as fierce as landing a design gig. A restaurant owner wants to hire waiters with years of experiences just like any design firms. He/she can have the pick from a pool of MBA, lawyers, architects, or professional waiters, if the restaurant still has enough business.
For those who thinks an unemployed architect should simply just move on and get a survival jot, please read the article below on the Wall Street Journal.
I can understand the sage advice of moving on, but I can also sympathize the anger of the unemployed being preached, when there is no where to move on. Advices with a little empathy will be appreciated.
Anyone know of any recent large layoffs in NYC? That city seems like the only one left standing. Any big project delays or green-lit projects we should be mourning or celebrating?
med. I am just amazed at your world view. You act as if there is a massive world-wide conspiracy of senior level architects out to get you and your friends and make their lives Hell by maliciously mismanaging and destroying their own firms.
Look around--the entire economy is in the same state as the architecture community.
When clients struggle financially, put jobs on hold, and stop paying bills (like they are doing now) it makes it quite difficult to have adequate cash to pay people--no matter how talented and hard-working they are or how much you like them or how much you want to keep them on for when times get better.
If you have a model for a better way to run an architectural firm so that there are never layoffs, please let us know ASAP. I'm sure everyone on this forum would love to know how to do that. If you know how to manage business cycles, call the Fed. Bernanke needs all the help he can get.
When I say that life isn't fair, I'm simply stating the truth. The issues of slavery and racism and cancer aren't fair, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to overcome those problems. Solutions involve brilliant ideas, commitment, hard work, passion. Whining and complaining achieve nothing.
When I say to move on, I mean to readjust your thinking toward finding solutions. Since you are still employed, you can conserve your resources for the day when you need them, you can help out your friends with an envelope of cash or a bag of groceries, you can work in a soup kitchen or tutor underpriviledged kids, you can get off of the internet during work hours and prove to your employer that you are the best thing that ever happened to his/her firm, you can work on getting registered and LEED accredited, you can write your Congressman or run for office. Doing something constructive or helping out people less fortunate than you is an effective distraction and a great way to improve your perspective (and mental health). Complaining just alienates and annoys the people around you.
Take this advise with a hug and my best wishes. Experience is hard-earned. I'm not preaching, I'm sharing.
I would love to move back to New Orleans, but I left pre-katrina because there was no work for my significant other. While there may be a building industry, there is very little in the way of tech or business. Its mostly still tourism focused.
But I think most IDs here are not whining, nor are they not moving on. They are moving on by telling their stories, communicating with other people, and inspiring school kids what the real world is. People have emotions. Rather than your gesture as "shut up" and move on, I believe that it is more humane that "cry out" and move on.
Layoffs....layoffs......
Aqua--yeah its a sad sad world out there. young architects struggling with families and mortgages. older higher ups losing it all. It sucks, and yes we've covered that ad nauseam. Sure it frustrates me, sure I feel bad for folks in tight situations, but...
At some point you have to stop crying over spilled milk. I mean really.
Thought you could raise a family on Architect wages? Guess not, time to move on.
Thought you could keep the smoke and mirrors alive long enough to retire in tahiti? Guess not, time to move on.
Look, we are still intrinsically tied to the most corrupt, crooked, cut throat industry in the world. The buildign industry and real estate development is the single biggest money laundering operation on earth. I can't think of another industry where russian mafia, south florida cocaine giants, oppressive middle east oil regimes, crooked wall street tycoons, corrupt politicians, yakusa, combined with the millions of wanna be high rollers all coalesce into one giant pool.
Architects are front and center of this. We are the naive, the idealistic, the altruists...maybe. Nevertheless, we are bound. Forget financial crises for a minute, even with all cylinders pumping we are in a dubious and risky profession.
Anyone who thinks or expected otherwise is just naive, uniformed, or both.
sorry for the types above
sorry for the typos! jesus
I don't like the lettering on that guy's sign, no wonder he is unemployed.
I don't like that he is charging $0.05 when most people willing to talk to him would probably have at least a quarter in their pocket. He's leaving money on the table. Of course he can afford "The North Face" so maybe things aren't so bad.
cadcroupier, great post re: seeing the reality and maybe moving on, and file you too for your honesty.
PJN26 good for you using FedEx to help you weather this storm and emerge as a smarter, highly desirable BIM specialist! Excellent decision.
I'm serving on a panel discussion next week about finances in the practice of architecture. I'm planning to point the student audience to this thread and the other layoff one as a painful crash course in the business.
Also: I adore the Architecture 5 cents guy. Smart, humorous way to network in a crowd of potential clients (farmer's market). And imsleepy, North Face is nothing; check out 66 d. North for uber high end outdoor gear. The best.
The 5 cent guy rocks. I don't know him personally, but I did walk by his booth last sunday morning in Ballard. I didn't stop because he was engrossed talking with a couple about their project. But I can verify he is still at it!
the north face? this guy work @ callison or nbbj before he got axed?
that being said, i'm pretty sure i'm too shy to sit out in a booth all day and talk about architecture for 5cents. now if they walked in my office or home, i could talk for hours. wtf is that about, agoraphobia?
Not sure I agree about that one. Most architects I know aren't closely tied to DC politicians.
I don't want to sound whiny about mid-level people getting the shaft in this recession. I know the upper management is taking it hard too, and trying really hard to save their businesses right now. My complaint is I've heard more than a few complaints from the bosses about how their 401's are decimated, etc. Yes, but then again their mortgages are paid off, their kids are already through college and on their own, and even with pay cuts they still are doing relatively well, all things considered. I only speak for the handful of firms I'm closely tied to, but I presume it's a similar story everywhere.
All this reminds me of when I first graduated and was job hunting out east. Had several interviews and a couple offers. At one place I was very interested in I asked for a slightly higher wage because cost of living was far more than the mid-western town I was coming from. The principal laughed and said, and I quote, "I have dozens of resumes from Ivy grads living off trust funds that'll do this job for nothing. You already have the highest offer we can afford to give."
Unfortunately for me I work this job for my lively hood as well my passion.
aqua - there is merit to what you write above. but, pain is pain, from whatever source.
IMO, the unfair posts above are those that fail to recognize the extraordinarily widespread distribution of real pain in this recession. Pain is not the province of any single group, nor is the pain of one group necessarily the result of another group's willful acts.
file - I agree that everyone is feeling the pain and my apologies if I've been unfair in my comments. Pain is always relative to your own circumstances and of course I find my own situation to be the worst because I'm experiencing it.
Cadcroupier obviously I disagree with such generalization of our age group.
What are you saying here, that 20 and 30-semethings don't have real lives and families and kids? Many of the people I know in the profession who have been affected are people in this category -- newlyweds, people starting families, etc. Their lives are completely destroyed right now. Don't believe me? I've seen first hand all the horror-stories that would just make you sick to the stomach. Just a few months ago, my friend at a prominent NYC firm had his child and was laid off that same week. He has absolutely nowhere to go. Where do you think he and his family are going to get money from -- what's the next step for this guy? His only crime is that he was a 20-something. He did absolutely nothing wrong but he is now forced to suffer for someone else's fuck up.
I'm not a selfish person -- I'm speaking for many people who have shattered lives right now because of other peoples' greed and selfishness. Yes, I'm single and have no children -- should I really be happy about that? I think it kinda sucks actually. I want to settle down sometime! Many of you guys have made enough excuses about this whole thing -- "this just happens and cyclical" and all this other bullshit, but this America! We are one of the richest and greatest nations on earth -- things shouldn't break down like this! This is the worse recession ever yet we are abundant in natural resources, we have the greatest universities, people continue to flock to America, and we have the human resources -- things like shouldn't happen and people should just stop making excuses.
med. - just who are you blaming? What do you want him / her / them to do?
Over 2,000,000 "innocent" people in this country have lost their jobs since January 1, 2009
File, are you not calling them innocent?
I'm saying he didn't drive the company into the ground, he didn't fuck the economy up, he do anything to the company -- only a hard working employee trying to live.
It is not his right to have a job. Stop living paycheck to paycheck and get a grip.
You're not the only one who has a life on hold right now. Nobody I know is thinking about starting a family right now. Those I know that are in the market for buying a house are afraid to do so for chance they might lose their jobs. Most of my co-workers have either cancelled vacation plans or never made plans all together. Many people are even dropping AIA membership trying to save $$. The only "happy hours" I've been to lately are for friends that have been laid off.
You know what, med? I didn't drive my company into the ground, I didn't fuck up the economy, I didn't do anything bad to the company -- yet I still found it necessary to terminate a number of "hard working employees trying to live". And, it hurt like hell to do so.
I ask you again - who are you blaming and what do you want them to do? You seem to be looking for a demon where one doesn't exist.
Okay since you are in the position of tossing people out into the streets, I'm very currious about something.
Why do you lay people off in masses? Isn't it already a humiliating enough experience to lose your job and to add insult to injury, you have to herd everyone together to face their slaughter.
I'm just asking... It completely boggles my mind.
Who says I "lay people off in masses"? When it's necessary to reduce staff, I and at least one of my partners sit down individually with each affected person to deliver the news and to offer what support we can.
However, consider the dynamics of a large lay-off ... say, on the order of 15 people or so. As soon as you start calling people into offices or conference rooms, the word spreads through the firm like wildfire. If a firm tries to meet individually with a largish number of people, it literally can take hours. All the while, everybody else is sitting around terrified they'll be next. I was on the receiving end of that agony years ago ... ripping the band aid off quickly has its merits and is, in many ways, much more humane.
"Bad things happen to good people" - whether it be layoffs, illness or accidents. In my experience, most firms try to do these things as humanely as possible - but that still doesn't make it easy on either party.
I think the current generation has forgotten about the real Depression the national global one that lead to much suffering beyond people’s financial security. I would, if ever placed in the position to mentor, encourage all young professionals to be much more debt adverse than we have been in recent times. The generation that came to age after the oil embargo got drunk on easy credit. Mortgages, installment plans and credit cards were abused. We will all have to reconcile the fact that the US is in debt both as a nation and individually. Debt is a weakness and a threat that needs to be carefully managed so as to not overtake us. Most of my education and subsequent debt awareness came from parents and relatives who know how to out last hard times. Frugality is rarely taught in schools k-12 or college. How huge of a change it would be if NAAB required all design studios to incorporate realistic budgeting limits into their projects? Designers are often ignorant of financial tools and consequences by choice or by default. Kids need to learn the importance of compounded interest, and that bankruptcy has some very profound and far reaching consequences.
Med. your posts are becoming so absurdly confrontational that I'm having a hard time taking you seriously anymore.
to those that are feeling sorry for themselves and looking to blame others, may I remind you of the fact that
you volunteered to do any or all of the following:
A. ignore well documented warnings about compensation and volatility in the industry.
B. take on debt to pursue Architecture education despite warnings.
C. enter the profession despite warnings.
D. have kids and start a family.
E. take on a mortgage.
F. not maintain savings by living within the means to do so.
E. not invest time in a personal network of freelance opportunities.
G. continue to search for architecture jobs despite advise to move on.
Sorry to appear insensitive. I happen to fall into many of those categories myself. I truly do feel for those that have been dealt a difficult hand, but the simple fact still remains: we made the bed....
CAD, that's the point is that you haven't appeared to be insensitive this entire time -- you HAVE been insensitive this entire time.
You've basically saying: "You lost your job? Tough shit. You deserve it because you asked for it."
And you're having a hard time taking ME seriously?
while I shudder at the thought of being on the same side of an issue as med., I think it wrong to blame the folks who have lost their jobs.
I know quite a few who don't have lots of debt, who haven't been blind to the risks of working in this profession, and who worked hard and did good work ... and who still lost their jobs.
they lost their jobs and suffer because the economy collapsed - not because they were greedy or stupid and not because their firms were selfish or incompetent.
file, shudder away.
Now you understand what kind of Hell many of my younger colleagues have gone through. Basically of all the horror stories I've heard, the most common are when people are subjected to layoffs from the cold unscrupulous rantings of insensitive people like cadcrouupier.
But in all fairness, the last firm I was at, the principals who had to let everyone go was in absolute tears and has been pretty broken ever since.
"fairness" is a good thing
more like: you lost your job? Tough shit. Move on and don't dwell in failure.
Its the move on part that I think some continue to struggle with, month after month whining about all the injustices perceived to be aimed soley at you or your peers.
What is it with the entitlement complex?
Stop looking for others to provide you with sustenance, just to turn around and blame them when they take it away.
You worked hard, did all the right things and you got paid. So what? Did you earn some inalienable right to life? You did a job and got paid, thats it, job over, time to move on.
I think you guys continue to miss my point.
I'm not blaming anyone. Not the firm owners, not the interns, not the middle managers. not even the so called greedy wall street bankers.
We all make choices, sometimes those choices don't work out (for whatever reason) At somepoint you have to dust off and get on with life.
I could not agree more.
my structural engineer was laid off yesterday - major engineering firm in seattle. not sure how many others went with him.
med, at least you worked (i don't know for how long) and had a job. some of us have been begging for the last year and a half to even land the first job.
It's going to be difficult to explain to all these brand new master's students that when they graduate in 1.5-3 years, they probably won't get a job at all.
In fact, I'd say a good deal of people who graduated from college in the last two years don't have jobs or have minimum wage jobs. It would be hard to prove this since the labor department doesn't count these people.
Right there with you rockandhill. Graduated last May, no job, but it's been a fun ride. Cuts this past week in a larger firm in Indy.
PS. I know this topic is very vague in it's title with "layoffs...layoffs...", but can everyone that wants to participate in the pissing contest not post their pathetic opinions about who's to blame and all that other bullsh*t? This thread was much better before when it focused on recent layoffs and provided advice. Thanks ladies and gents.
Well, all people are communicable. Un-employees who lost their job recently definitely understand this is a big recession, and it's a time layoff happens. We all understand that firms need to keep the in-out flows balanced to survive.
But ,where does the anger come from?
Because some people are just evil. I agree that some bosses are good people and layoff is the last option they would take. But one of my friends, who is a very talent guy, was laidoff from a corporation firm just because the studio head doesn't believe that he is a yes-person to him. So he cleaned him out of his studio to address his"imperial" power. Actually it's not necessary to do so because my friend was still working on another project out of his studio. We have to agree that there are some control freaks who love to fuck up others life, especially in some large firms. And it is where the anger come from, unfairness.
It is a tough time for everyone now. And it is a time we can see ugly faces present here and there. It is a virtue to understand and to forgive. But you can not expect everyone would have the same view. If someone wants to express their anger, archinect definitely is a good place to ease the stress. So, my opinion is, go ahead, blame your boss, blame bankers, blame anyone you believe he deserves...
gruen, i'm glad we don't have the same structural...
kpff or ssf?
med. and other whiners.
Go find the person who ever suggested to you that life was fair and complain to him/her.
I'll offer you this bit of hard-earned wisdom.
LIFE ISN"T FAIR.
Cancer isn't fair.
Disease isn't fair.
Distribution of resources isn't fair.
Distribution of talent isn't fair.
Distribution of opportunities isn't fair.
Racism isn't fair.
Sexism isn't fair.
I could go on for volumes, but if you don't get the point by now, you never will.
If you had ever been told the odds of your survival to be in months, you might get some perspective. I pity your situation (and have been there myself) but more so I pity your immaturity. As long as you keep blaming others, you will not be able to move forward. Your future is not in the hands of others; it is in your hands. Do something with it. Every moment you spend venting is a moment you are wasting, throwing away, poisoning.
You may not be able to control the winds, but you can set your sails to take you where you want to go.
I think some of you have me misunderstood.
I'm still gainfully employed (knock on wood) and am pretty busy actually. Don't believe me? Its saturday today and I'm in the office working right now. If the axe falls on my, I've already got myself emotionally prepared -- it'll suck, I'll have to make a lot of changes and takes a few steps backwards, but I think I've got a reasonable contingency plan.
But I've been with two other previous firms and have seen the mass slaughter go down. Every day I get an email from freinds, former college classmates, former coworkers all saying that the axe fell and they were caught on the wrong end. It's tragic because many of these people don't know what to do now and many of their former employers didn't offer any word of support or encouragement. Trust me, they did nothing wrong -- they were very hard workers and extremely talented people! My frustration comes from seeing this day-to-day, and having to wait my turn if/when the time comes. Furthermore, my frustration comes from the fact that we have heard all of the excuses and all of the "reasoning" behind the collapse of firms by principals. So far they have done all of the talking and we have only had to listen. This is a good outlet to let them know what's on our minds and the reality of what they are really doing to us.
Oh and CM I actually had to roll my eyes and giggle at that silly and boring list that you concocted. I bet you just love to hear yourself preach to people and I'm sure you have ALL the answers. By enlarge, what you are telling people is that racism, sexism, and all that stuff isn't fair but you just need to put up with it because that's just the way it is. So by default you're telling us that all the movements in equality and civil rights just aren't the way to go. Slavery? It's fair, but it's tjust the way it is -- you're black -- you're a slave. Nevermind the brave people who faught the white supremacist government -- never mind the underground railroad. This is exactly what you're telling people.
I not sure why this thread has evolved to Architects bashing other Architects. I thought this thread was to support our fellow Architects?
You know what's really unfair?
That I drank a bottle of white wine last night before bed and woke up this morning with the whiskey farts. I didn't even touch beer or hard liquor. If anyone needs some paint stripped off some furniture... put it near my ass.
Understanding the recession for those who not economists or economic development specialists:
How to Make a Grilled Cheese Sandwich
Are you out of all your regular snack foods? Do you need a simple meal that you can eat on the go? Do you need a delicious snack that won’t be deemed “junk” by your mother? If you answered “yes” to any of these questions, then you’ve come to the right place. Within this webpage is a tasty and simple recipe for the classic food: grilled cheese.
1. Obtain a frying pan of correct size for the number of sandwiches you can handle at a time.
2. Put pan on stove over medium heat until hot. During heating, begin slicing cheese and getting bread.
3. Butter pan, or the outside of each slice of bread, whichever you prefer, and put one side of sandwich on pan with cheese on top. Then add the top slice of bread right away. Lower the heat and cover to help the cheese melt.
4. Check to see if bread is brown after no more than two minutes, although more time may be needed for desired results. When bread is brown enough, flip.
5. Know that the second side should brown faster so be prepared to check it in no time. When it is cooked to your satisfaction, turn off the stove, put your sandwich on a plate, cut into dodecagons, and enjoy.
Seriously, this is almost as worst as listening to engineers thinking they have the entitlement to talk about social program reform or the dynamics of culture because they're engineers.
Why hasn't anyone sat down any engineers lately to tell them that their very scant education outside of maths and physics pretty much makes them totally inept retards on any subject that isn't about beams and pipes?
I think that this thread has reached the depths of stupidity.
And on that note I must announce that one of my former firms let go of 150 company-wide on Thursday. :-)
It is really tough out there, not just for architects/designers/construction. Competition for the survival jobs is as fierce as landing a design gig. A restaurant owner wants to hire waiters with years of experiences just like any design firms. He/she can have the pick from a pool of MBA, lawyers, architects, or professional waiters, if the restaurant still has enough business.
For those who thinks an unemployed architect should simply just move on and get a survival jot, please read the article below on the Wall Street Journal.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123870904496284141.html
I can understand the sage advice of moving on, but I can also sympathize the anger of the unemployed being preached, when there is no where to move on. Advices with a little empathy will be appreciated.
Anyone know of any recent large layoffs in NYC? That city seems like the only one left standing. Any big project delays or green-lit projects we should be mourning or celebrating?
Collecting unemployment is your right, and it pays better than Lowe's.
med. I am just amazed at your world view. You act as if there is a massive world-wide conspiracy of senior level architects out to get you and your friends and make their lives Hell by maliciously mismanaging and destroying their own firms.
Look around--the entire economy is in the same state as the architecture community.
When clients struggle financially, put jobs on hold, and stop paying bills (like they are doing now) it makes it quite difficult to have adequate cash to pay people--no matter how talented and hard-working they are or how much you like them or how much you want to keep them on for when times get better.
If you have a model for a better way to run an architectural firm so that there are never layoffs, please let us know ASAP. I'm sure everyone on this forum would love to know how to do that. If you know how to manage business cycles, call the Fed. Bernanke needs all the help he can get.
When I say that life isn't fair, I'm simply stating the truth. The issues of slavery and racism and cancer aren't fair, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to overcome those problems. Solutions involve brilliant ideas, commitment, hard work, passion. Whining and complaining achieve nothing.
When I say to move on, I mean to readjust your thinking toward finding solutions. Since you are still employed, you can conserve your resources for the day when you need them, you can help out your friends with an envelope of cash or a bag of groceries, you can work in a soup kitchen or tutor underpriviledged kids, you can get off of the internet during work hours and prove to your employer that you are the best thing that ever happened to his/her firm, you can work on getting registered and LEED accredited, you can write your Congressman or run for office. Doing something constructive or helping out people less fortunate than you is an effective distraction and a great way to improve your perspective (and mental health). Complaining just alienates and annoys the people around you.
Take this advise with a hug and my best wishes. Experience is hard-earned. I'm not preaching, I'm sharing.
cm - great post
link: Why Small Companies Keep Shedding Jobs
New Orleans seems to be the only place active right now...
if you can move - that might be a good place to start looking for work.
I would love to move back to New Orleans, but I left pre-katrina because there was no work for my significant other. While there may be a building industry, there is very little in the way of tech or business. Its mostly still tourism focused.
cm, thanks for your sincere post.
But I think most IDs here are not whining, nor are they not moving on. They are moving on by telling their stories, communicating with other people, and inspiring school kids what the real world is. People have emotions. Rather than your gesture as "shut up" and move on, I believe that it is more humane that "cry out" and move on.
Why does the AIA have to refer to staff who are layed-off as the firms weakest members (please see 4th paragraph of attached link)?
http://aia.org/practicing/akr/AIAS075899
Whoever wrote this apparently has no clue as to what architects are having to go through these days.
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