No matter the merit of your issues, your tone will get you no where. I would think a more diplomatic message and try again.

i would disagree and say that, regardless of the tone, the number of people backing the statement matters most.
it's absolutely absurd ncarb has not developed a web-based recording system.

riot

I think the petition is totally appropriate.

wow. it's been really interesting getting everyone's feedback regarding the petition. even on this discussion board there are three different perspectives to this petition.

i've had various architects and lawyers read the petition and it's current draft is the result. This is already the toned down version with legally appropriate language.

i am planning to send this around to various architectural schools and AIA organizations.

please sign and forward on! thanks.

Aren't they already working on NCARB issues? Lots of new changes being voted on for July implementation,

Has anyone just asked NCARB? Why must you jump straight to extreme actions?

Wow, have you ever called NCARB and ever had to ask them a question before? If you have, I imagine you would not be asking this question.

The reason I've started this petition is because NCARB has been so extremely and consistantly non-responsive. I urge you to read the comments left by the signers of the petition. You will see that by following NCARB's stated rules and by waiting patiently you are typically left in limbo.

It is true they have sent out literature stating that they are in the process of making many new and important changes. However these changes are never clearly defined. Their goals are vague. You will also notice that their yearly updates always talk about improvements that have not come to fruition.

I'm not doing this because I'm bored or lonely. I'm doing this because 90% of the people I know who are in the process of getting licensed have had a horrible time dealing with this professional organization who is regulating us. It doesn't make sense to me that we are all funding their consistant failures. When we make a mistake at work, there are consequences. When NCARB makes mistakes, there is no accountability and we have no recourse. Does that seem right to you?

Honestly, Fix, the below hardly seems vetted by attorney's, if it has then I am even more concerned.

Dear NCARB,

This petition is submitted to convey to you a collective frustration in dealing with NCARB's appalling standards of organization and customer service, and the consequent roadblock that this represents to our careers. More importantly, it is submitted to request an immediate response, action and improvement to an unacceptable situation.

It is ironic that the very organization entrusted with overseeing a critical part of the professional Architectural Licensure process and thereby safeguarding the standards of the profession, itself consistently falls short of even a basic level of professional practice.

Most architecture school graduates never complete IDP, hardly surprising considering the difficulty many experience in working with NCARB. Despite the organization's stated core values of "Integrity, Service and Accountability", for countless IDP and examination candidates, records are lost, transmittals are kept in limbo for months or never sent, timelines promised on their websites are not honored, and phone messages and emails are left unanswered.

In order to rectify the problem, NCARB needs to improve its customer service and organizational standards immediately. An outside consulting agency should be retained to examine their processes and provide recommendations for manageable solutions. Some solutions that would greatly assist the process are as follows:

1. To have informed and knowledgeable human representatives be available during office hours to answer (or obtain immediate answers for) specific record questions.
2. Establishment of realistic timelines for processing, and adherence to those.
3. To establish an online account system for 24-hour applicant access to record status, record submittal, and communications with NCARB.

We the undersigned trust that NCARB will seriously consider and expediently act upon this petition.

Thank you,

Licensure Candidates and Registered Architects Across America

The entire letter is badly worded, the second paragraph should be removed altogether, the first sentence of the third paragraph is grossly overstated - without nay evidence or basis in fact.

I'll say more later...

I'm a little concerned that you keep changing the petition, while collecting signatures. When I first looked at your petition and considered signing it, it was a completely different letter. If I'd signed then, I would have been signing a different document than you'd actually be sending with my name attached! I know you've been tweaking this thing, getting feedback and such and that you don't intend any dishonesty. But if you've changed the letter AT ALL since you collected any signatures then it is not appropriate to send it anywhere with those signatures still attached. You need to come up with a final draft and THEN collect your signatures. Otherwise you're misrepresenting those who signed earlier.
At this point you need to scrap your existing petition, come up with a final version, and start from scratch with collecting signatures.


A few other notes:
It isn't true that "most architecture school graduates never complete IDP." NCARB, the AIA, and the state boards have statistics on that - the most recent I've seen do show a good majority of grads eventually completing IDP and about half of grads getting licensed.
Stating something incorrect and unsubstantiated like that in your petition is not helpful in making a credible case.

As for your three solutions: all of those are supposedly in the works currently. NCARB just did some major staff turnover and redefining of responsibilities - as outlined in the "Direct Connections" that just came out. The timing of your petition isn't great, since NCARB can answer that they've just implemented all these changes and it's too early to see how they will work out.

ipetitions lets you change the petition after you already have signatures? That's shady. In that case you should either start over or email each person who signed and tell them you changed it and get their permission to keep their signature.

you probably shouldnt be completely negative and all bashing of NCARB either
if you say that you understand that changes are being discussed to improve the system, and you thought these would also be helpful, you might get a better response that, hey your system sucks and you dont answer my emails
besides, as bloopox just said, they are in the process of making changes, so by not acknowledging that at all in your rant, you sound like you havent done any homework at all, and havent even attempted to speak with someone at NCARB

demanding immediate action also doesnt paint you in the best light. lets be honest, they arent the worst organization ever made, and they dont wrong people on purpose
the system needs some tweaking, approach it that way

saying the whole thing is messed up like you do, makes you sound uninformed about the whole process

The "Direct Connections" NCARB newsletter that just came out outlines a total reorganizing of NCARB's customer service and record keeping functions into 6 or 7 different departments, new managers, new procedures. You say that they're not being specific enough in their goals and reforms, but the short list you provide seems to suggest the same things they say they're doing now - with no more specificity. The front page of NCARB's website now has a "start your council record online" tab and they have plans to add more online features.
My experiences with NCARB haven't been very good. I'm all for change. But I do actually think that NCARB has identified that need and is working on it.
In 2007 there were a series NCARB surveys that went out to interns, architects, recently-registered people, mentors, etc. Those identified a lot of specific shortcomings at NCARB and they do seem to be taking action to directly address those.

The best way to get specific action is to identify specific issues and make NCARB and your own state board aware of the issues - no matter how small. This means that if your certification application is delayed, or you have a computer glitch at a testing center, or your email to NCARB goes unanswered, or your IDP record is languishing in its fifth month of "final review" then you must write about the what, when, where, whys of that particular situation and send that letter to NCARB and to your state board within days of experiencing the problem.
If everybody does that then it will be a much better demonstration of the particular problems and also the volume and frequency of those problems.

Wow, what's this wow crap?

If you did have a reason to petition, I strongly recommend having it written by a professional. Poorly constructed sentences, like the following, seem less like argument and more like whining.

Most architecture school graduates never complete IDP, hardly surprising considering the difficulty many experience in working with NCARB.

I agree with Garpike - Fix NCARB is the problem. I think perhaps he/she should start a petition against the grammar and rhetoric of the petition.

I've been quiet on this subject until now. Like another poster stated on the original thread, I was quite "gruntled" by my NCARB experience. I was patient yet diligent throughout the process, and I certainly didn't wait until the end to file my paperwork. The staff members with which I interacted were always courteous, and I received positive results.

It seems like there has been a mad rush to IDP ever since the new version of the ARE was announced. I would expect the volume to die down after the deadline to register under the previous version has passed.

there are problems, many have had them, i have had them. we just need a fact based, less emotional, argument crafted. the above argument does not do it for me, and i won't sign until it does. oh, and i don't have time to craft one either.

there are definitely some problems, but many of those are from people with unrealistic expectations of the process

how many times is it that people complain about IDP and its because they have 5 years worth of hours they demand credit for, yet have never worried about until now

you need specific problems with NCARB, and to have it written in a thoughtful way, with potential solutions to each problem

saying their customer service is bad doesnt mean anything
who's to say you arent being a jerk to them and are just pissed when they cant help you

i'd help craft one if i thought there was a real reason for this letter, but really, i dont see the point
all it will be is a whiny complaint letter

just wait 'til fixncarb hits the a.r.e. whew!

i fought about this stupidity of the exam format, design, and content for a year or so, got nowhere, became complacent, and faded into the wallpaper. it's hard to keep up the anger once you're registered.

you want to hate on NCARB try this inane bit bull...

Dear Mr.

I have spoken to Mr. XXXXX and you do options available for transmittal:

1. You can circumvent the NCARB process and complete the necessary paperwork required in order to gain reciprocity in the state of XXXXXXX. Please call the board to see how to proceed with the reciprocity process directly to the state board.
2. You can have NCARB send your record without your registration information (which we do not have a copy of) to the XXXXXX board and NCARB cannot guarantee that the board will accept your record without your XXXXXX registration information (Form 155). Also there is a fee of $300.00 for a transmittal after your record is sent to a state board. To my knowledge NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.
3. Lastly, you can have the XXXXXX board send NCARB your registration information (Form 155) to NCARB for a nominal fee and NCARB can proceed with the certification process.


my response -


X,

I have some questions regarding the three points below. Attached is the application and instructions for XXXXXX comity application. After speaking with X at the State Board office, she stated XXXXXXXX would accept a letter from NCARB confirming completion of IDP.


1. You can circumvent the NCARB process and complete the necessary paperwork required in order to gain reciprocity in the state of XXXXXX. Please call the board to see how to proceed with the reciprocity process directly to the state board.

I don’t think I follow this point. The state board requires confirmation – for comity – that I have fulfilled NCARB’s IDP requirements, which as you can see from my record I have more than satisfied. It seems that after speaking with their comity coordinator a letter verifying completion of IDP would suffice.

2. You can have NCARB send your record without your registration information (which we do not have a copy of) to the XXXXXX board and NCARB cannot guarantee that the board will accept your record without your XXXXXX registration information (Form 155). Also there is a fee of $300.00 for a transmittal after your record is sent to a state board. To my knowledge NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.

This point leaves me completely baffled. You seem to suggest that NCARB is ABLE to send my record, but not my XXXXXregistration. I don’t understand what Form 155 is, and I am unable to locate it on XXXXXX website. Your final sentence is quite confusing; your first sentence suggests that you CAN send my record, but your last sentence notes that “…NCARB does not send records in this manner to state boards, once an architect is registered.” Please help me understand this point.

3. Lastly, you can have the XXXXXX board send NCARB your registration information (Form 155) to NCARB for a nominal fee and NCARB can proceed with the certification process.

This last point seems to suggest that I can get proceed with getting NCARB certified, is that correct?

X, I am trying to understand this process, I don’t understand why this is so complicated. I have spoken with XXXXX regarding comity, and they have explained that over half their applicants are comity applicants. It seems from your points above that the only way to get “confirmation” or “verification” of my IDP is to pay $300.00, but then you also suggest that NCARB does not typically send “confirmation” once I became registered. Given that fact, then your points to me confirm that the ONLY way to get my comity application approved is to become NCARB certified, yet the state of XXXXXX does not require NCARB certification.

Regards,

her response back to me -

Dear Mr. X,

Once an architect becomes registered, NCARB does not send an IDP record to a state board. You will have to become certified through NCARB in order to proceed with reciprocity.

I will request a copy of your registration for you so NCARB can have a copy on record if you choose to become certified and there is no charge by the XXXXXX state board for a copy of your registration and your test scores. (You registration and test score form is called 155.)


Once an architect is registered and can qualify for certification, NCARB does not send an IDP record or any type of IDP update to a state board. You will have to be evaluated for NCARB certification and although the XXXXXXX state board does not require certification, NCARB does. I apologize that you have been given information that was misleading by the XXXXXX state board but I do want to help you start the certification process in order for you to get the reciprocity that you need with the state of Minnesota.

Sincerely,

i am in fraking Twilight Zone here, fraking rabbit hole type shit...

my state does not require NCARB certification to get reciprocity, but NCARB is telling me they don't do what my state and i am asking for, which means i need NCARB certification - EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT REQUIRED?

you want an effective argument for abolishing NCARB, here it is....THEIR VISION

NCARB Vision
As the facilitator for the protection of the health, safety, and welfare of the public, the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards:

Requires a NAAB-accredited degree, successful completion of the Intern Development Program (IDP) and successful completion of the Architect Registration Examination (ARE).
Protects and enhances the validity of the Intern Develop Program (IDP) and the Architect Registration Examination (ARE).
Encourages all architects to become Certificate holders.
Advocates for the elimination of impediments to reciprocity.
Serves as the trusted international center of registration data and regulatory information.
Values diversity of opinion and representation.
Promotes recognition of the architect as the primary building professional qualified to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the public, through the enhancement of the quality of the built environment and the richness of space and form.

who are they kidding?

I've seen people stuck in this same conundrum before. Some of them have managed to get around it when the state board has also become fed up and "ordered" NCARB to release the IDP record of a licensed architect for the $300 transmittal fee. After all, it is the state boards who are supposed to decide what to do with the info, and NCARB is just supposed to collect and file the info and give it to the states when they ask (and when the fees are paid).

But other people, in other states, have found that their state board will not insist that NCARB do something that is against NCARB's policies. So in those states there's no way around certification.

One other route you can ask about: your original state probably received your bound NCARB record when you applied for registration there. You can see whether State #2 will accept copies of this directly from State #1, and whether State #1 will send the copies. This doesn't usually work unless both states are somewhat more flexible than is typical...
You can also ask whether a copy of your original "Congrats, you're done with IDP" letter would suffice. Offer to have it notarized. Again, this will only work if State #2 is somewhat flexible in its policies.

In the long run you may want to proceed with certification anyway, since more than a third of states now absolutely require certification for reciprocity, with no other application methods.

Fix NCARB-
I just wanted you to know that your original efforts are appreciated and additional efforts are in the works. There are a group of us that have written a report about the various issues with NCARB and as one of our efforts we have started a Facebook group called aRCHITECTS for the reform of NCARB and the ARE. Please search for this and join our effort.

As others have stated, the letter is very combative. You need something that is direct, but non confrontational, something that doesn't just complain but simply states facts and requests action (within a reasonable amount of time).


I'd sign in a heart beat and pass along to everyone if you rewrite it (are you still here?)

I am not the original poster (FIX), but the effort is still going on. Check out our landuage on the FB group and see if you think it is combative - we worked hard to do exactly what you have said, be direct and to the point. Take a look and share your feedback. If you agree, please join the FB group.

Thank you to all who are taking a proactive role in charging NCARB with incompetence and disorganization.
I qualified to take the ARE nearly a year ago but NCARB has somehow 'misplaced' several dozens of my hours and has yet to transfer my record. Even my NCARB online account has varying information about the hours I've logged. Attempting to have NCARB account for these discrepancies has been fruitless. It is extremely frustrating. I had no idea that so many others had encountered similar difficulties.
I would also sign a rewritten version.

I see by the dates of previous blogs this conversation seems to have come to a barely audible dribble.

Anyone out there?

I have been licensed (MA) for 20 years and now seeking licensure by direct endorsement in FL.  I am shocked and dismayed that I have met all the requirements for endorsement, except the MA board claims that they can send a letter to the FL board stating when I was initially licensed and my current status, but they are not allowed to send my ARE grades.  "ARE records are only available from NCARB, please contact them and get a form 155".

When I contact NCARB they refuse to send my ARE records without me initiating a NCARB Record for $1500.  So I paid to take an exam which you administered, however, I can't have access to the results to use as I see fit.  Smells like extortion and hostage taking.

The boards need to take more powerful action, they should not be ruled by NCARB, but clearly there is collusion here and ultimately a financial gain somewhere for a non service.

Rather than a petition, I will take the avenue of direct confrontation.  A court ordered subpoena of my records may force them to release my ARE record.

Anyone out here?

Gotta keep that NCARB record active - pay fees for life!  They have overhead, they gotta store the whole 2kb of info on you on a server and pay some intern to click send when you need the data sent elsewhere.

Yea, I complain about paying the NCARB fee every year but in the long run I think it's worth it. Sorry, vmo2001, that you're in this position.

i believe the deal is professionals pay a bit more for record maintenance in order to subsidize test fees for intern architects.  

Think of it this way, If you'd been paying NCARB membership for the past 20 years it'd be well over $1500, so you've come out ahead.

as one of the younger peeps here that has actually worked for the federal government, your dick-ish tone and badditude will get you no where. If you really want to fix NCARB, change it from within. They had some job postings a couple months back, go work there and get in bed with the bureaucracy. In order to break a system, you have to master it. 

[NSFW rant, offensive language ahead, sensitive readers skip this post]

vmo2001,

I moved to a different state and worked for another architect for a while. But then I left to work for myself, and I had to deal with this same shit 2yrs ago. NCARB offered me an $800 price during an "amnesty period" to get me back in the fold. I got in, got out. Maybe you can point to the amnesty pricing from the past and request special dispensation...? Fuck them for holding my license hostage for $1500 (or even $800!)! They don't do shit except ransom your personal info, credentials, IDP & ARE results. I can fucking call around and get my school and my state board to mail my shit to the new state board. 

HOWEVER

Don't change NCARB. [sorry, ivorykeyboard, NCARB won't change unless forced; they have a partial monopoly] Change the state requirement to receive via NCARB. That is who we should petition and pressure. Not all states require it (something like half of them do). For those that do, this is why they do it;

1) it is easy for the state to keep track of new files because they are sent as a single package, not a series of individual mailings. And,

2) the state likes the independence of the mail not coming via the applicant (less fraud).

I understand these issues, but surely there is a better way than paying $400(!) to mail a file that's been in storage (NCARB's min transfer fee)...and likely digitally stored! Not to mention the yearly membership fees to keep it up...

Solve these issues for the states and maybe NCARB can fuck off with ransoming our personal info!

 

Part B rant reiterated

AND FUCK THE $1,500 TO GET REINSTATED!!!

YOU do the work to hand over your credentials to NCARB, who turns around and hands it to the state board you want to submit to. Do they even check/certify/research your info?!? No, you just get it sent from whatever legitimate source (state board, university, etc) and pay that institution's perfectly reasonable fee (AFAIK usually less than $50). It's a fuck ton of bullshit!

 

[/NSFW rant]

 

(sigh!)

That's a great rant, proto!