my boss tells me: "i shouldn't have to be correcting your mistakes, i want you to be checking this yourself!"
when my boss gets hot with the red pencil though, he's on fire!...he'll start redlining placement of notes. the more i try to argue the hotter he'll get...at this point i'm thinking "bring it on...i'm hourly"
Similar problem here.
It seems if I am supposed to take full responsibility for a "perfect" set of drawings, I should be getting the pricipal's fees, instead of groans of disappointment...and shit.
yea what meta said, but be a little humble with it. Hat in hand explain the position, speak frankly that you don't see things like they do and that you respect their position, but his/her inference is the only why it will be improved.
I agree with jorge_c. You learn a lot more when there is an attitude of, "It's your responsibility to make sure the drawings are correct. Do whatever research, ask whoever you need to ask (another person in the firm, a technical rep, Graphic Standards etc.) until you KNOW it is correct." An employee who can play by those rules is far more valuable, as the PM can focus on other things rather than redlines.
Yeah but doesn't that take away from redundancy? I don't care who you are but it's serious business when a building falls down because someone didn't detail it correctly. I don't care if your a principal and you've been in the business for years, you should still get a second opinion.
I think it comes down to the level of person doing the work. a one year intern. bleed all overit. 10 years exp. then that is another matter. however a cursory review by the proncipal in charge is a good idea no matter what the level.
while i definitely agree that drawings need at least a once over by a licensed architect for quality control, it is almost impossible for anyone checking a drawing to pick up absolutely everything. think of how much information is in a typical floor plan - dimensions, wall tags, door tags, detail call-outs - and that's just in a plan. interns have a ton of responsibility being the one's that produce the drawings. i know it's not an issue with mdler who clearly knows what he's doing, but i do believe that it's important that interns take ownership of a project and don't just leave it up to a project architect to catch the mistakes.
Im currently in a project manager role where I take it as my responsibility to spend an extra hour every night with my half sets and 2-3 hours every saturday redlining and checking the drafting work, accuracy and cordination of the sets. I dont get paid overtime for it. I always thought its the your duty as a "boss" even they dont use that word anymore. Thats what it means to be "the boss". Its your responsibility to check it or hire someone to check it. If your not licensed, you shouldnt be expected to be 100% correct all the time. In fact no one is ever 100% - the more eyes checking the better.
I know this sounds lame, like the lonely widow making dinner for two... but I used to do my own redlines. It may sound redundant to be redlining your own drawings, but I did catch quite a few things. I'll print up a half set and set it aside overnight. I'll come back in the morning or a few days later and redline the set.
that's what i've been doing now...i'll print a set and go over the drawings myself before the boss takes his turn. there are things that become obvious when printed on paper.
redlining your own drawings is great because
1- you catch your own mistakes and
2- interns see that you're playing by the same rules and don't feel like redlines are dumb mistakes (some guys resent being redlined a lot)
I long to go back to the day of picking up redlines sometimes as we don't redline either. Everyone is a project manager, nothing more, nothing less, except the principal. There is no delegation. The first job I did for this firm when they didn't even know my skill level, no one really looked it over at all, ever. Sounds dangerous to me, but it turned out fine, more than fine. Gave me some confidence, hope they all turn out that good...
I also do my own redlines. Yes, looks diff. on paper, and saves time to keep me focued on what is important.
if i had any confidence in the p.m. to even open cad, then, it would be great to have him or her do all the dimensions. most interns do not know how to dimension. hell, i've come across several licensed architects who don't know how to dimension. it drives me crazy. there's nothing worse than opening a drawing that's improperly dimensioned and then having to fix it.
I'm an intern and I do my own redlines before the PA looks at them as well. Problem is, sometimes she/he takes them off the printer while I'm printing them out. I now have to kindly ask them to let me look at my own work one more time. I agree, it's a good training exercise. I'm also in the "research, ask, etc. until you figure it out firms",which I like as well, though it took me a few projects to figure out that was the process.
ochona, most standards call for architects stamping drawings to have "responsible control" over the drawings. There has been various interpretations of the level of supervision this calls for.
"recklessly negligent" is when you fail to meet the reasonable standard of care that may be expected from any architect in the profession.
whoever stamps the drawings is responsible for the mistakes in the drawings, but saying that you're negligent is a big step. i would say you are negligent if you didn't check the work of an intern out of school. you're not negligent if you didn't check the work of a project manager with 10 years experience.
depends on what it is that you're wondering about. if we're talking about dimensions/notes/overall graphic issues, i'm going to assume that you'd know what is right or wrong. if it's a technical matter, then that's a little different. you may very well not know something is right or wrong. just ask then. if you do and are rebuffed, then find another office.
and i'll third or fourth (or whatever) the notion that printing things out, AT FULL FREAKIN SCALE, is about the only way you'll really know what it is that you're producing. and 16 eyes are better than two.
reasonable standard of care = someone [else] has checked the drawings. if nobody else, the architect of record has to do it. you do check the work of a project manager with 10 years experience -- you just might not do it to the level of detail that you would an intern.
now...it's better to perform continual checks of the drawings than to bleed on a page only once and expect things to be perfect afterward.
and there is a limit as to how many people should be permitted to opine as to your drawings...just because at a certain level, comments are statements of preference or priority rather than fact. i don't need three opinions on the size of my notes.
so my boss refuses to redline drawings....
and then bitches about things being wrong...
wtf?
for some reason, i thought you were a boss mdler???
but to stay on topic, all of my architectural knowledge was imparted at birth by divine intervention - how else does one get it?
my boss tells me: "i shouldn't have to be correcting your mistakes, i want you to be checking this yourself!"
when my boss gets hot with the red pencil though, he's on fire!...he'll start redlining placement of notes. the more i try to argue the hotter he'll get...at this point i'm thinking "bring it on...i'm hourly"
damn straight dammson. I hope you get time+.5 for overtime too.
you should redline his face with your fist, mdler
aint my name on the stamp...
mdler send them over to me, I'll redline them. I used to earn sick money redlining large scale projects for the public sector. I miss those days.
Similar problem here.
It seems if I am supposed to take full responsibility for a "perfect" set of drawings, I should be getting the pricipal's fees, instead of groans of disappointment...and shit.
(See mistakes thread)
yea what meta said, but be a little humble with it. Hat in hand explain the position, speak frankly that you don't see things like they do and that you respect their position, but his/her inference is the only why it will be improved.
like today where i was put alone in a room with a city comments partial set to copy the relines out...
starting out, i worked for a red-lining boss. then i worked for a "checking it yourself" guy. i learned more with that approach.
BUT, it does suck to be blamed for a mistake for the first time at the building department plan check or at the client meeting.
I agree with jorge_c. You learn a lot more when there is an attitude of, "It's your responsibility to make sure the drawings are correct. Do whatever research, ask whoever you need to ask (another person in the firm, a technical rep, Graphic Standards etc.) until you KNOW it is correct." An employee who can play by those rules is far more valuable, as the PM can focus on other things rather than redlines.
Yeah but doesn't that take away from redundancy? I don't care who you are but it's serious business when a building falls down because someone didn't detail it correctly. I don't care if your a principal and you've been in the business for years, you should still get a second opinion.
I think it comes down to the level of person doing the work. a one year intern. bleed all overit. 10 years exp. then that is another matter. however a cursory review by the proncipal in charge is a good idea no matter what the level.
while i definitely agree that drawings need at least a once over by a licensed architect for quality control, it is almost impossible for anyone checking a drawing to pick up absolutely everything. think of how much information is in a typical floor plan - dimensions, wall tags, door tags, detail call-outs - and that's just in a plan. interns have a ton of responsibility being the one's that produce the drawings. i know it's not an issue with mdler who clearly knows what he's doing, but i do believe that it's important that interns take ownership of a project and don't just leave it up to a project architect to catch the mistakes.
Im currently in a project manager role where I take it as my responsibility to spend an extra hour every night with my half sets and 2-3 hours every saturday redlining and checking the drafting work, accuracy and cordination of the sets. I dont get paid overtime for it. I always thought its the your duty as a "boss" even they dont use that word anymore. Thats what it means to be "the boss". Its your responsibility to check it or hire someone to check it. If your not licensed, you shouldnt be expected to be 100% correct all the time. In fact no one is ever 100% - the more eyes checking the better.
I know this sounds lame, like the lonely widow making dinner for two... but I used to do my own redlines. It may sound redundant to be redlining your own drawings, but I did catch quite a few things. I'll print up a half set and set it aside overnight. I'll come back in the morning or a few days later and redline the set.
that's what i've been doing now...i'll print a set and go over the drawings myself before the boss takes his turn. there are things that become obvious when printed on paper.
If you think it is correct and it isnt, how do you know that it isnt if you think it is?
redlining your own drawings is great because
1- you catch your own mistakes and
2- interns see that you're playing by the same rules and don't feel like redlines are dumb mistakes (some guys resent being redlined a lot)
oh and about redlining dimensions;
i have a rule: only the job captain or project manager can dimension. period.
has anybody else come across this?
no but i have seen where only the senior architect can draw a floor plan and its essentially, well, you understand
I long to go back to the day of picking up redlines sometimes as we don't redline either. Everyone is a project manager, nothing more, nothing less, except the principal. There is no delegation. The first job I did for this firm when they didn't even know my skill level, no one really looked it over at all, ever. Sounds dangerous to me, but it turned out fine, more than fine. Gave me some confidence, hope they all turn out that good...
I also do my own redlines. Yes, looks diff. on paper, and saves time to keep me focued on what is important.
if i had any confidence in the p.m. to even open cad, then, it would be great to have him or her do all the dimensions. most interns do not know how to dimension. hell, i've come across several licensed architects who don't know how to dimension. it drives me crazy. there's nothing worse than opening a drawing that's improperly dimensioned and then having to fix it.
I'm an intern and I do my own redlines before the PA looks at them as well. Problem is, sometimes she/he takes them off the printer while I'm printing them out. I now have to kindly ask them to let me look at my own work one more time. I agree, it's a good training exercise. I'm also in the "research, ask, etc. until you figure it out firms",which I like as well, though it took me a few projects to figure out that was the process.
if a licensed architect is NOT checking the drawings they stamp, they're probably being recklessly negligent. the buck has to stop somewhere.
the problem with CAD / computers is that you're not looking at the drawings the way that the end user will be, and you miss stuff.
also, it's ALWAYS a good idea to have a second set of eyes on ANY set of drawings.
ochona, most standards call for architects stamping drawings to have "responsible control" over the drawings. There has been various interpretations of the level of supervision this calls for.
"recklessly negligent" is when you fail to meet the reasonable standard of care that may be expected from any architect in the profession.
whoever stamps the drawings is responsible for the mistakes in the drawings, but saying that you're negligent is a big step. i would say you are negligent if you didn't check the work of an intern out of school. you're not negligent if you didn't check the work of a project manager with 10 years experience.
mdler,
depends on what it is that you're wondering about. if we're talking about dimensions/notes/overall graphic issues, i'm going to assume that you'd know what is right or wrong. if it's a technical matter, then that's a little different. you may very well not know something is right or wrong. just ask then. if you do and are rebuffed, then find another office.
and i'll third or fourth (or whatever) the notion that printing things out, AT FULL FREAKIN SCALE, is about the only way you'll really know what it is that you're producing. and 16 eyes are better than two.
reasonable standard of care = someone [else] has checked the drawings. if nobody else, the architect of record has to do it. you do check the work of a project manager with 10 years experience -- you just might not do it to the level of detail that you would an intern.
now...it's better to perform continual checks of the drawings than to bleed on a page only once and expect things to be perfect afterward.
and there is a limit as to how many people should be permitted to opine as to your drawings...just because at a certain level, comments are statements of preference or priority rather than fact. i don't need three opinions on the size of my notes.
... I have the PM with 10 years experience look over my drawings as the boss could really care less...
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.