its everyone in the group's responsibility for the well being of the newborns. Its just a problem with being humans. I could see 3/4 pay for 6 months for biz of certain min. size. Small biz if they value the employee will find a way to be helpfull if they want the person back.
What to Do - theres no problem with bringing up body image, its germaine to this discussion and I think highly important and yes its important enough to be the second post because of the high number of cosmetic procedures and health issues like buliemia. I geuss in Chicago theres just more cosmetic surgery than other places but I brought it up to point out a certain shift in outlook i think between the women comming of age in the 60's 70's verses 80's 90's, which may be inevitable. My cuz got them and shes an underpaid teacher. I know 2 girls who are in sales both got them. I know another woman who is in Law who got them and I just thought it's odd BECAUSE i figured it was strippers who got them ( not my words)
I have a friend who is a stay at home dad. The primary reason that he did this was because his wife makes more money than he did, and he wanted one of them home with the kids in their early years. He has a lot of female friends that he has met through playing with the kids at the park, etc. Oddly his wife now makes comments towards him that men have ignorantly made towards stay at home moms for years. Comments like "What the hell do you do all day?", " Your taking to e? Why isn't the house clean? I've been busting my ass at work all day. The least you could have done was clean the house." He has shared this with his mom friends. They were floored and said that if their husbands ever said something like that their ass would be to the curb. She does not even think to take the kids to the park, etc so that my friend can have a few free hours to himself. And of course when the kids need something, they go to dad not mom.
lars, you may not look at the difference any more, but does your boss? I've actually spoken with an older architect who specifically stated that he had a dillemna when it came to female interns: see, he was in the habit of inviting an intern to lunch occasionally to talk about their career goals, how things were going with them, etc. Just a little face time, some casual mentoring. He would pay for the meal. Well, he'd always had MALE interns. When he started getting female interns, he felt uncomfortable with this. He thought that they would think, or that the other men in the office would think, that he was trying to hit on the female interns if he invited them to a one-on-one lunch. So he didn't. Consequently, the women in the office felt that they were getting slighted, that the boss obviously preferred the men, that they were given more face time and a leg up when it came to advancing their specific career goals. And they were absolutely right, despite the fact that it all stemmed from an older man trying not to make them or anyone else uncomfortable. So even if you as a coworker could care less about what sex your team members are, if your boss cares, if it makes him uncomfortable in any way, it can totally opress the women in the office.
r-
is part of the problem that you assume my boss is male?
or do you know where i work? it happens that my boss is
male.
i don't think there's a problem in that regard...my boss seems
to be even handed as far as i can tell...
of course these sort of arguments are difficult since i am male,
white and from a middle class background that i can only
relate to these issues through observation from that vantage
point which to some makes my point of view irrelevant.
steph and lars, yes I assumed the boss was male. Why? Because most bosses in architecture are. I'm more likely to be right by typing "him" than by typing "her". Puddles touched on this, and I think was very right in that part of the problem in architecture specifically is that the slow rate of growth for women is related to the slow rate of growth, period: i.e., it takes quite a while for anyone to get to the top, so women will naturally percolate up at some point, it just hasn't happened yet. To pretend that it had would simply be dishonest.
i'm sorry, i'm just totally a stickler for gender neutralizing language. i get annoyed over the abundant use of "guys" in consultant meetings or the women in my office (or any other offices) being referred to as "girls". even when women do this. personal problem? perhaps.
There are an equal number of women to men in my firm. However, all of the women (besides me) are interior designers and all of the guys are architects/interns. The 4 bosses are all registered architects and men.
If you asked me how many issues have arised from this disconnect, i wouldn't even know where to begin. I am actually worried about the girls because they have relied on me, to a certain extent, to say things to the guys that they might not because they feel as if their opinions are somehow less valued. And I'm leaving next week. Eek.
I never socialize with the guys here, by the way. I used to date one but that feels like a parallel universe now, and was before we worked together.
tumbles, I think it has more to do with a lack of understanding than social progress or not. My friend's wife does not understand how difficult it can be to care for two young boys all day everyday. It is a 14 hour day, 7 days a week. No vaction. No sick time.
I think there will always be a prejudice against women as long as there is going to be a prejudice against minorities. The reason is, Women, are considered a Minority in the United states.
Sadly, this ill-treatment, we cannot blame anyone except our selves. We all have some kind of prejudice, whether it's against the opposite sex, religion, or race, but we can't admit it, thus its very hard for society (especially men), to accept positions of powerful women, where us men usually hold.
Frankly, I'll admit it, I would feel very uncomfortable if my wife made more money than me, or if she was the bread winner in the family. And why do I have this mentality? Because I grew up around it, in schools, home, friends. So the main questions we should ask is.....
A) How can we shape the next generation to be more accepting at what ever position a woman holds, whether shes a boss, bread winner, president.
lol a lot of reps. and senators are idiots, to the point that it really scares me. The reason is, this country's (USA) govt. was established by amazing, intelligent - people, and now...idiots...
sunsetsam- you bring up an interesting point, especially with our very important impending election. I wonder how society would change if we had a woman president. Though I'm actually a Barack girl at this point, I can't wait to see how/if attitudes change when there is a female president.
tumbles, I agree completely, and told the guy so. I said that he should suck up whatever wierd paranoia he had and treat all the interns equally, and try not to even think of them as male or female.
my first job out of school was a nightmare. I was first interview by 2 women associates in a 1/2 male 1/2 female office. I then met with a male principal who made a point of telling me that, though the website had a picture of the 5 (all white male) principals, they are very supportive and encouraging when it comes to female growth. I thought it was strange he felt the need to point it out (as if there was a problem), but also thought it was nice he was conscious of their lack of diversity. Anyway, add a whole other stigma against me- I was hired to be the first official interiors person in the office. I was stoked and thought it was great, I mean I couldn't possible be pushed aside as one of "those interiors girls" when it was just me...they had to include me right?
not at all.
They knew and praised my portfolio and experience in Interior Architecture and sold me in the job because they wanted to take a strong conceptual approach to their interiors as they did to the exterior and site planning. But, when it came down to it, they had me doing nothing but picking carpet/paint samples, spec-ing furniture, organizing the materials library, etc. I would not have taken the job if I knew that's what it entailed. Add to this...no one talked to me...AT ALL. Now, i am very friendly, talk to everyone, and make friends easily...so, WTF? i would say good morning to people and they would literally look the other way. I thought it was just that I was "the interiors or girl" or "color girl" or "furniture girl" as they liked to call me...but then I realized how sexist they were. The common thread in all those is "girl".
I noticed that the only 2 young female employees were sleeping with associates and that the women associates were so busy simultaneously clawing their way to the top while kissing the principals asses that they were actually just as sexist as the men. The guy I sat next to wouldn't even acknowledge me if I said something. In general, i'd say the men pretty much thought that the women should shut up and produce while the men did the design & took the meetings and the woman wanted to make sure the younger women didn't get any attention so they constantly degraded and embarrassed them in public. It was venomous. During weeks 2-4 I talked to my immediate supervisor, the office manager, and the head of HR (separately) because i was really trying to find a solution. all of whom basically said, "Deal with it". Needless to say, i lasted a month, was ignored one too many times, wrote a letter to the office manager, hr, and principal and never came back.
The irony is that now I work for a sub-contractor, a sector of the industry that unfortunately has the stereotype of being sexist AND I am the only woman (30 employees).... it's wonderful! They are nothing but supportive, inclusive, and considerate. Of course they cuss and tell inappropriate jokes, but always apologize if it might be offensive. If anything they've reinstated my hope that this industry can be fair...
hopefully.
Stephanie- instead of "guys" or "girls", how about using y'all...that'll take into account everybody....
I agree it's time we had someone that wasn't a WASP as president-as far as I know, we've never had an Italian president, so there's even more diveristy being represented with this crop of candidates.
One thing that irks me, however, is people referring to Mr. Obama as African American-his father is an authentic African American, having been born in Africa, but Barack was born in America and his mother is White, so that makes him an American who happens to be of African and European descent.
Why does he have to be "just black?" I guess he thinks he'll alienate his "black voters" because he's not black enough whenever he mentions his mum is white...whatever...
I'm of mixed heritage myself and that just annoys the crap out of me.
i don't think obama makes a big deal of it..but the color of his
skin is a fairly big deal to alot of the country considering even if
he's only 'half black' he still has some african heritage. he'd
be the first elected president with that as his background.
i did find it odd that it was mentioned that some african-americans
didn't think he was 'really black' because he didn't share the 'ghetto'
experience. i don't know why they wouldn't be excited at the
possibility of someone that has at least some shared experiences
and could represent them in a positive, unprescedented way.
it seems odd to me that you gathered all that about your
previous employer from 1 month of employment. i guess when
you know it's not right, it's not right..but 1 month doesn't seem
like much of a sample. in most firms that's barely through
orientation...
To her credit (W2D), I had a parallel experience at a firm, and I knew by Day 2 that I had made a terrible mistake. It was right out of school and the job market was crap, and I was desperate, and apparently I was the first female architect they had hired in 10 years. However, the reason I quit was not because they were sexist; it was because they were, um, "technology-ist" and "religion-ist".
Basically their computer systems were antiquated, which I could not handle, and they proselytized to me every day because they were evangelicals, which I would not tolerate. I deciphered none of this during my interviews. Yeah, that was an interesting 4 weeks.
Male or Female if you work for yourself time off is money out of your pocket. I don't care if it is for babies or backs. It is not different for a female or for a male. So do keep that in mind when you want to
jump into your own practice.
the funny thing is that in recent years i've found myself questioning the entier disctussion of "gender." sure, i feel empathy for women but there are often similar concerns for men too.
-breast cancer is awful, but it is possible for men (undeveloped mamary glands) to get it and die from it too...and probably suffer an added social stigma because of it.
-rape is atrocious, but there have been plenty of male victims of rape too (although admittedly most perpetrators are men).
-it's unfortunate that aging, single women are accused of being "old maids," but do single men have it much better? at best, a batchelor is accused of being a womanizer. on the hand if he's obviously not chasing skirts then he's likely to be accused of being gay or, worst case scenario, suspected of being real pervert along the lines of a child molester.
-women tend to make less money than men but as pointed out in an interesting study about american wealth (published in a book called the millionaire next door), women also tend to be the beneficiaries of more financial support from their families than men.* the authors termed this "economic outpatient care" and talked about it extensively in their chapter on "family style affirmative action". i'm not sure how valid this is today considering that i've actually heard of many women making more money than their husbands/boyfriends...but they did have a fair amount of research.
i guess my point is that things aren't necessarily better or worse for an individual based solely on gender. and if anybody gets my sympathy on account of social bias's and stereotyped gender roles then it would probably those of who qualify as intersex individuals? every time they face a bathroom in public labeled men/women, they face a cultural bias even more engrained than the old "white/black" restrooms and seating arrangements of the south. i have a genuinely difficult time trying to fathom how difficult life must be for those people.
_______________________________ *this is only marginally related but an interesting side note. as an example of the rationale of providing daughters with a more stable financial foundation consider the case of architect philip johnson. his father was a successful (but hardly rich) lawyer in cleveland during the boomtimes of the industrial revolution. because the father believed in providing for his children at the age of 18 he gave each of his daughters real estate holding (houses, i believe) but only provided young philip with a shares of stock. the stock had been given to him by one of his client for some of the legal work he had done for a yound company and the elder johnson considered it to be of unstable value, certainly not as worthy as the homes he gave his daughters. well, as it turned out philip took the stock, entered hsi freshman year at harvard and during the course of his studies that year, the stock's value (in a young company now known as alcoa) rose considerably and philip ended up being a bona fide millionaire because of it. how's that for a lucky break?
I'm going to chime in with my usual Canadian side of things, at least as I know them....
Women here get 15 weeks maternity leave, and 35 weeks of parental leave. Mom and dad can both share this time, and they often do. Because this time amounts to 50 weeks, many couples split the time, with mom returning to work at about six months, at which time dad stays home with baby for the remainder of the time.
Also, I only know one woman with a fake boob, and that's cause one didn't develop through puberty.
And as a body piercer for the last 7+ years, I can only recall ever piercing one other fake boob. I've seen thousands of boobs in my time. Fake ones here are extremely rare. Strippers usually don't even have them.
lars:
absolutely sure. I was there 5 weeks, precisely 4.5 weeks too long. The job was not, and would not be, anything like what I was promised or what was indicated in my employment package. I was promised 3 weeks of corporate training (you know, their cad formats, system, update on projects, etc) I got exactly none. Nothing at all. Without any background knowledge of a project, people would say "go pick carpet for X". Having never seen a plan, a board, a concept, anything on the project...nor knowing where to find the info (I wasn't trained or hooked up to the network so that I could even try and find a context) how the hell are you suppose to do that? Plus, though finishes might be part of the gig, I am not a decorator. I would not have taken a job with that sole responsibility.
When i finally insisted I should sit in on a DD meeting, they were talking about an entry detail and the principal pointed at me, "what would you do?" I think everyone thought I would just puppet my boss, but I thought her idea was crap. Instead of saying that, I gave a suggestion that the principal loved (I found out they actually used) and my boss got really pissy. For the next 3 weeks, she didn't talk to me unless she yelled at me because she lost something. Other newbies (male) disagreed and she was never overtly bitchy with them.
Another example: On my first day, we had a staff meeting. 3 other recent grads started with me that day, they were all men w/ BArch's. Each of their supervisors pointed them out, introduced them, and had them say where they came from & what their experience was (10+ min each). No one mentioned me until, at the end, someone said "Is that our new receptionist" and pointed at me. My immediate supervisor said, "No, she the new interiors girl"...like a bad dream, everyone say "oh", stood up and walked back to their desks.
Anyway, it goes on and on. Fighting two stigmas..
I was really disappointed because I turned down 5 other offers for this job, it paid really well w/ full benefits, and conceptually, their projects were precisely in line with my interests.
thanks WK. It is hard and, in a situation like that, you don't know if it's because of being female, in interiors, or both. I have to say that I know a lot of ID/IA women who go though 3-5 jobs really quickly right out of school because of such disrespect. Most learn that the only way to be treated like a human being is to go and work at a Interiors only firm, which is what a lot of us don't want to do. Anyway, that's why I get so upset at the general attitude amongst architects regarding designers. I've said this before, but I feel like I have to get my masters in order to practice exactly what my undergrad taught me to do, Interior Architecture. It's a bonus that I actually do want to get a master, lol...
slantsix - what's it like to live in such a civilized nation? It sounds wonderful! I love the idea of the government ensuring the couple has the time, but the couple making the decision themselves how much time they each want to take.
Lars- This article talks about whether or not Obama is "Black Enough"...it seems an absurd thing for anyone to focus on. I'm not Black or African American, but I am an African immigrant, so I think the term is rather skewed. I just like the guy and couldn't care less what color he is or isn't enough of.
Back to babies...
Try and follow me here: About 50% of woman have children in their lifetime and the average American woman has approximately 2.1 kids (it's unfortunate for the .1 ;). We also have about 5.4 million stay at home moms (so we only need paternity leave in those cases). My point is that it's not like most women are pregnant for years and years and years. Add the fact that more woman are waiting until they are older and have established careers, presumably so they can afford to take the time off, then it doesn't seem to be such a dire situation for the government. If the average woman and her partner want to take off 3-6 months(?) for the birth, it doesn't seem like such a burden. Also, women have kids and so far, we are the only sex that can (not including adoption). People are going to continue to procreate whether I agree with it or not ;) so it seems to make the most sense to set up a system where we don't have to have this constant battle and uncertainty.
rant over...back to physics homework...on a Friday night? wtf...
I have a friend with an American wife, who is trying to emigrate here to Canada. They are waiting until she's legal to get pregnant because of the ridiculous maternity leave conditions in the US.
When he told me that she'd get 5 weeks off (I think she's from Illinois), I literally could not believe it. That's utterly inhumane.
If somebody told me that they were leaving their baby at home to be babysat at five weeks old, I'd think she was crazy. The only thing crazier I can think of is that your gov't forces this on families. Unbelievable.
I was wondering if anyone worked at a firm, whether it was an interior design firm, or arch firm, and the majority was women and you were a male? If so, were your ideas considered or taken seriously? How were you treated?
My theory is that, males would endure the same kind of harassment, but to a lesser degree (MUCH LESS) because women (in a majority), tend to rationalize and be less prideful (than men), thus your (as a male) ideas won't be shot down as much, or maybe at all.
I know many of are going to disagree with me, because you may think that how a person acts is based on his or her experiences. But a lot of these experiences had a large or small cloak of some kind of prejudice.
i worked at a firm where i was outnumbered by the women six to one on our floor (four of the women were architects and two were interior designers)...they talked alot about celebrities and televison shows and would say some very awful things about paris hilton in particular. personally, i found that very offensive but just tried not to listen to it. i'm not sure if my experience qualifies as "the same kind of harrassment" that sunsetsam referrences...but it was definitely a different working environment to endure.
I agree with sunsetsam. I have worked in environments where I have been the only woman and I have also worked in environments where we've had only one or two guys. And let me tell you this... women are just as abusive as men. At least if a woman is harassed at the workplace, she can make some noise about it and have a chance of being taken seriously, whereas a man has to suck it up and just roll with the punches.
I'm not trying to imply that men have it harder than women or vice-versa. I'm just telling my experiences.
This discussion is really illuminating. Have all of these workplaces been in the US? I wonder if anyone has any experiences to share about women in European workplaces?....
Btw, what's wrong with saggy boobs? Is the search for perennially juvenile boobs the mark of perennially juvenile minds? I'm thinking of the men and the women here.
I worked for a woman. Small place. She hired another woman. Our boss disregarded the other woman's ideas a lot, and it wasn't due to her bad ideas. She had great ones. She was also constantly on her about everything, yet she did treat the men the same way.
I have to admit, the sex and race thing has been weighing a lot on my mind when it comes to joining the architectural profession-I have been hesitating a bit because of some of the horror stories I've heard about sexism and racism in the workplace. I know it happens in other professions as well, but it seems worse in male dominated professions.
Sometimes I wonder if it's worth the trouble-I'd hate to spend a lot of time and money on schooling and find I'm not welcome because I'm not the right sex or colour...and conversely, I don't want to be the token Negro/Indian/White Woman, hired only because I'm a woman and minority.
BTW-I didn't know only 50% of women were mothers...judging by all the pregnant women I've seen lately, I would have thought it was more lke 70%...wow...now I feel much better...
I should preface this by saying that I don't work in a design office, but rather a tattoo shop. Usually there's about 4 to 10 employees in any shop. At the last studio I worked at, we actually had "Sexual Harrassment Wednesdays," which were not, as you might assume, a day where we talk about the issue of sexual harrassment, but rather a day where sexual harrassment was welcomed and encouraged - jokingly, of course. Grab an ass and get away with it. It was always a joke and nobody ever took advantage. Kinda funny.
One day was even Cross-Dressing Wednesday, where everybody cross dressed, including the burly dude with the big beard who swears like a sailor. He put water balloons in a bra and everything. Amazing. He was rubbing his boobs on anybody and everybody.
I think our corporate culture is a little different than most companies and industries!
(BTW, my friend is getting a joke tattoo as we speak in another room. It's a portrait of Gandhi wearing an eyepatch, with a banner underneath that says "An eye for an eye leaves me totally skullfucked." He's also got a tattoo of a dinosaur holding a bible and giving the thumbs up, as well as another of a "transvestite monkey wrench" which is exactly what you'd assume it was. My boss just got a black Jesus tattooed on his chest, with a sacred chicken wing instead of a sacred heart. Sometimes you just gotta laugh and wonder about peoples' sanity!)
- firstly, no way should anybody get paid to stay home with their kid fo a year. It is a personal choice. Yes, there should be a reasonable maternity period, but then you decide to either get back to work, and get paid, or take time off. I say this as a woman architect who had two kids, and would NEVER have expected my neighbors (ie government tax paid program) or my boss to finance the time I took off. It was my choice, my decision, my impact on my bank account. Do all of you want to pay so your co worker can stay home and be paid? Would you contribute $1000 a year to a fund so that one employee a year could stay home? If you are in a firm of 50, thats what it would cost. Say in that average firm of 50 there were 4 men or women off with the baby at any one time. Ready for that $4000 pay cut?
- I also am now an employer, and do you realize the impact that would have on hiring women architects? Most firms are small, and in no way could afford to pay someone for a year who is not there producing billable work. Are you crazy? Guess what would happen? No women of childbearing age would be hired. Think this doesn't already happen? You have no idea how much harder it is for a married woman of that age to get a job. I am female, and I have to force myself to set aside the thought that this person I am looking at hiring is going to leave in a year to have a baby. Guess why? I have had 8 female employees leave in the past few years to have a child (one returned part time) or to move to some other part of the country to follow their husbands careers. Honestly, most male employeers who have not walked in my shoes are going to hire the guy over the female. You'll never know why you didn't get hired, they will smile to your face, but they are thinking they will not hire you.
- Your co workers without kids will hate you if you get a paid year off to raise your child. A contractor I know decided to offer family health benefits (instead of just individual) to all of his employeees. Nice idea, right? Wrong, all of his single workers had a fit, and wanted cash compensation for the $5000 differnece in the cost of the insurance, since their co workers were getting something they were not. He had to stop giving family insurance and go back to just giving individual to avoid a mutiny.
- I cannot believe how many young females focus on shallow things like getting paid for not working and fake boobs, when there is a huge amount of discrimiation in this field that they are completely blind to. Women make less money for the same work. Oh, not when you are young and right out of school. But look at salaries of women working in this profession for 20 years, and you will see a HUGE gap in salaries and advancement. My husband is an architect as well, and I could see the difference in his pay check and mine every month, although we had the same experience level and are equally qualified. Thats one reason I started my own firm
- I graduated from college 28 years ago. My graduating architecture class was 50% women. So you would think 50% of the women running firms and in parntership positions would be women, or something at least like 25%, right? NO! take a look at most firms. Maybe one woman in a partnership position out of 10 partners, and she is an interior designer or in charge of marketing, not an architect. Women have not advanced in this profession- most of the ones who are successful made their own way in their own firms. You think it is jsut because there were less women in the profession back then, but I am telling you, it is because women dropped out of the profession , some to have kids, but most because of the lack of opportunity and advancement.
- You can't complain about sexual harrassment and show up to work dressed like a slut. I recently had a young female architect come to my office for an interview, a Cornell grad, a school I also attended. She showed up in a mini skirt suit, with a slinkly low cut camisole top on under it. She was extremely busty, and was busting out of her top, so to speak. I am a female who has no interest in women's boobs, and I had to force myself not to look at them because I thought they were going to explode out of her shirt. Then she had the nerve to tell me about an interview at another firm where the male owner was staring at her chest! Want to be treated like a professional? Act the part, for god's sake. I recently was at a job site where an intern (not from my firm) was trying to prance around a muddy job site in a dress and spike heels. She ended up waiting in the car.
- Ok, enough of a rant. I'm old and I like to complain a lot. Sorry for venting, but honestly, you can't expect everything to be handed to you, and to be paid to raise your own children. This can be a wonderful profession, and is actually one that can pretty easily accommodate family life and having kids. I am able to earn a good living to provide for my family, have had fun doing it, and still enjoy work to this day. But I never expected anybody to hand anything to me. That's why this is called WORK!! Yes, it is hard, yes, you have to prove yourself, yes, you have to show you are worth it. Maybe that's why I am here on a Saturday!
WTD, wK & others with awful internship experiences--- first, go to insidearch.org and fill out a survey of the guilty firm- be brutally honest in your quotes and assesment. you will save lots of other interns from falling into the same boat.
2nd- you easily could have sued their asses. yeah, we live in a litigious society, but there are reasons to have lawyers around. sex discrimination, evangilzing, and more sucks. ok, it may have been simpler to walk away and it's really tough to prove - but who else is going to smack these folks outside the head and tell them that this behavior is unacceptable?
as a guy, I'm still trying to figure out how women doing the same job as I am get paid less? do they not ask for as much money as I do when negotiating a salary? I doubt the bosses are thinking 'oh, we can make another 20% profit if we hire a woman to do the work'. Or is there a lack of proactive advocacy for raises and such when review time rolls around?
I wondered what happened to all the women i went to school with. One of my best freind (who graduated at the top of the class) briefly taught after grad school, then decided to become a stay at home mom. she seems happy, but she was a great designer who I would have loved to work with.
I do appreciate professional attire - it's hard to concentrate on the issues in a meeting when somebody is showing too much cleavage - men are just wired that way.
American woman.....
its everyone in the group's responsibility for the well being of the newborns. Its just a problem with being humans. I could see 3/4 pay for 6 months for biz of certain min. size. Small biz if they value the employee will find a way to be helpfull if they want the person back.
What to Do - theres no problem with bringing up body image, its germaine to this discussion and I think highly important and yes its important enough to be the second post because of the high number of cosmetic procedures and health issues like buliemia. I geuss in Chicago theres just more cosmetic surgery than other places but I brought it up to point out a certain shift in outlook i think between the women comming of age in the 60's 70's verses 80's 90's, which may be inevitable. My cuz got them and shes an underpaid teacher. I know 2 girls who are in sales both got them. I know another woman who is in Law who got them and I just thought it's odd BECAUSE i figured it was strippers who got them ( not my words)
lars
I realize that. Mine was a serious question. Is that the difference that is halting progress?
I have a friend who is a stay at home dad. The primary reason that he did this was because his wife makes more money than he did, and he wanted one of them home with the kids in their early years. He has a lot of female friends that he has met through playing with the kids at the park, etc. Oddly his wife now makes comments towards him that men have ignorantly made towards stay at home moms for years. Comments like "What the hell do you do all day?", " Your taking to e? Why isn't the house clean? I've been busting my ass at work all day. The least you could have done was clean the house." He has shared this with his mom friends. They were floored and said that if their husbands ever said something like that their ass would be to the curb. She does not even think to take the kids to the park, etc so that my friend can have a few free hours to himself. And of course when the kids need something, they go to dad not mom.
lars, you may not look at the difference any more, but does your boss? I've actually spoken with an older architect who specifically stated that he had a dillemna when it came to female interns: see, he was in the habit of inviting an intern to lunch occasionally to talk about their career goals, how things were going with them, etc. Just a little face time, some casual mentoring. He would pay for the meal. Well, he'd always had MALE interns. When he started getting female interns, he felt uncomfortable with this. He thought that they would think, or that the other men in the office would think, that he was trying to hit on the female interns if he invited them to a one-on-one lunch. So he didn't. Consequently, the women in the office felt that they were getting slighted, that the boss obviously preferred the men, that they were given more face time and a leg up when it came to advancing their specific career goals. And they were absolutely right, despite the fact that it all stemmed from an older man trying not to make them or anyone else uncomfortable. So even if you as a coworker could care less about what sex your team members are, if your boss cares, if it makes him uncomfortable in any way, it can totally opress the women in the office.
"if your boss cares, if it makes him uncomfortable in any way..."
r-
is part of the problem that you assume my boss is male?
or do you know where i work? it happens that my boss is
male.
i don't think there's a problem in that regard...my boss seems
to be even handed as far as i can tell...
of course these sort of arguments are difficult since i am male,
white and from a middle class background that i can only
relate to these issues through observation from that vantage
point which to some makes my point of view irrelevant.
steph and lars, yes I assumed the boss was male. Why? Because most bosses in architecture are. I'm more likely to be right by typing "him" than by typing "her". Puddles touched on this, and I think was very right in that part of the problem in architecture specifically is that the slow rate of growth for women is related to the slow rate of growth, period: i.e., it takes quite a while for anyone to get to the top, so women will naturally percolate up at some point, it just hasn't happened yet. To pretend that it had would simply be dishonest.
I had a female boss in architecture but she was a lesbian.
r-
that's fair. just thought it was interesting...considering i'd mentioned
there were more women than men in my firm.
i'm sorry, i'm just totally a stickler for gender neutralizing language. i get annoyed over the abundant use of "guys" in consultant meetings or the women in my office (or any other offices) being referred to as "girls". even when women do this. personal problem? perhaps.
There are an equal number of women to men in my firm. However, all of the women (besides me) are interior designers and all of the guys are architects/interns. The 4 bosses are all registered architects and men.
If you asked me how many issues have arised from this disconnect, i wouldn't even know where to begin. I am actually worried about the girls because they have relied on me, to a certain extent, to say things to the guys that they might not because they feel as if their opinions are somehow less valued. And I'm leaving next week. Eek.
I never socialize with the guys here, by the way. I used to date one but that feels like a parallel universe now, and was before we worked together.
do you have job lined up WK?
Sorry stephanie, ha. I just think of them as "my girls" :o) And we actually call our bosses "the guys". It's weird, I know.
evilp, I'm moving to LA to attend grad school.
tumbles, I think it has more to do with a lack of understanding than social progress or not. My friend's wife does not understand how difficult it can be to care for two young boys all day everyday. It is a 14 hour day, 7 days a week. No vaction. No sick time.
Anyone have any other "workplace versus woman" stories they want to share? This could get interesting.....
I think there will always be a prejudice against women as long as there is going to be a prejudice against minorities. The reason is, Women, are considered a Minority in the United states.
Sadly, this ill-treatment, we cannot blame anyone except our selves. We all have some kind of prejudice, whether it's against the opposite sex, religion, or race, but we can't admit it, thus its very hard for society (especially men), to accept positions of powerful women, where us men usually hold.
Frankly, I'll admit it, I would feel very uncomfortable if my wife made more money than me, or if she was the bread winner in the family. And why do I have this mentality? Because I grew up around it, in schools, home, friends. So the main questions we should ask is.....
A) How can we shape the next generation to be more accepting at what ever position a woman holds, whether shes a boss, bread winner, president.
B)Is society ready for it?
oh yeah..i am dude too.
There is prejudice in every faction. Where are you going to start?
lol a lot of reps. and senators are idiots, to the point that it really scares me. The reason is, this country's (USA) govt. was established by amazing, intelligent - people, and now...idiots...
agreed tumbles. and once again, what is the focus of our one female presidential canidate? fashion.
Hillary Clinton's Tentative Dip Into New Neckline Territory
man you guys have been busy while i was at lunch.
sunsetsam- you bring up an interesting point, especially with our very important impending election. I wonder how society would change if we had a woman president. Though I'm actually a Barack girl at this point, I can't wait to see how/if attitudes change when there is a female president.
tumbles, I agree completely, and told the guy so. I said that he should suck up whatever wierd paranoia he had and treat all the interns equally, and try not to even think of them as male or female.
I was hoping Gene Kirkpatrick would have been president.
r-
in our current letigous society i don't think it's bad to have that
paranoia..although you need to do the same with everyone.
i think what he should do is take a fellow associate
with him so that it's not seen as a one on one thing potentially.
in small firms this doesn't make sense..but would seem to make
sense in larger ones.
i have always had the fortune of having strong intelligent and willful women in my life.
appropriate post for LiEbChEn
my first job out of school was a nightmare. I was first interview by 2 women associates in a 1/2 male 1/2 female office. I then met with a male principal who made a point of telling me that, though the website had a picture of the 5 (all white male) principals, they are very supportive and encouraging when it comes to female growth. I thought it was strange he felt the need to point it out (as if there was a problem), but also thought it was nice he was conscious of their lack of diversity. Anyway, add a whole other stigma against me- I was hired to be the first official interiors person in the office. I was stoked and thought it was great, I mean I couldn't possible be pushed aside as one of "those interiors girls" when it was just me...they had to include me right?
not at all.
They knew and praised my portfolio and experience in Interior Architecture and sold me in the job because they wanted to take a strong conceptual approach to their interiors as they did to the exterior and site planning. But, when it came down to it, they had me doing nothing but picking carpet/paint samples, spec-ing furniture, organizing the materials library, etc. I would not have taken the job if I knew that's what it entailed. Add to this...no one talked to me...AT ALL. Now, i am very friendly, talk to everyone, and make friends easily...so, WTF? i would say good morning to people and they would literally look the other way. I thought it was just that I was "the interiors or girl" or "color girl" or "furniture girl" as they liked to call me...but then I realized how sexist they were. The common thread in all those is "girl".
I noticed that the only 2 young female employees were sleeping with associates and that the women associates were so busy simultaneously clawing their way to the top while kissing the principals asses that they were actually just as sexist as the men. The guy I sat next to wouldn't even acknowledge me if I said something. In general, i'd say the men pretty much thought that the women should shut up and produce while the men did the design & took the meetings and the woman wanted to make sure the younger women didn't get any attention so they constantly degraded and embarrassed them in public. It was venomous. During weeks 2-4 I talked to my immediate supervisor, the office manager, and the head of HR (separately) because i was really trying to find a solution. all of whom basically said, "Deal with it". Needless to say, i lasted a month, was ignored one too many times, wrote a letter to the office manager, hr, and principal and never came back.
The irony is that now I work for a sub-contractor, a sector of the industry that unfortunately has the stereotype of being sexist AND I am the only woman (30 employees).... it's wonderful! They are nothing but supportive, inclusive, and considerate. Of course they cuss and tell inappropriate jokes, but always apologize if it might be offensive. If anything they've reinstated my hope that this industry can be fair...
hopefully.
Stephanie- instead of "guys" or "girls", how about using y'all...that'll take into account everybody....
I agree it's time we had someone that wasn't a WASP as president-as far as I know, we've never had an Italian president, so there's even more diveristy being represented with this crop of candidates.
One thing that irks me, however, is people referring to Mr. Obama as African American-his father is an authentic African American, having been born in Africa, but Barack was born in America and his mother is White, so that makes him an American who happens to be of African and European descent.
Why does he have to be "just black?" I guess he thinks he'll alienate his "black voters" because he's not black enough whenever he mentions his mum is white...whatever...
I'm of mixed heritage myself and that just annoys the crap out of me.
Why can't he just be an American?
**870 getting down off her soapbox***
Sorry I hijacked the thread...you may return to your normally scheduled comments.
I was born in Africa, now live in America...but I don't qualify for African American scholarships. I don't make the rules...
870
i don't think obama makes a big deal of it..but the color of his
skin is a fairly big deal to alot of the country considering even if
he's only 'half black' he still has some african heritage. he'd
be the first elected president with that as his background.
i did find it odd that it was mentioned that some african-americans
didn't think he was 'really black' because he didn't share the 'ghetto'
experience. i don't know why they wouldn't be excited at the
possibility of someone that has at least some shared experiences
and could represent them in a positive, unprescedented way.
wtd
it seems odd to me that you gathered all that about your
previous employer from 1 month of employment. i guess when
you know it's not right, it's not right..but 1 month doesn't seem
like much of a sample. in most firms that's barely through
orientation...
was this your first job out of school?
To her credit (W2D), I had a parallel experience at a firm, and I knew by Day 2 that I had made a terrible mistake. It was right out of school and the job market was crap, and I was desperate, and apparently I was the first female architect they had hired in 10 years. However, the reason I quit was not because they were sexist; it was because they were, um, "technology-ist" and "religion-ist".
Basically their computer systems were antiquated, which I could not handle, and they proselytized to me every day because they were evangelicals, which I would not tolerate. I deciphered none of this during my interviews. Yeah, that was an interesting 4 weeks.
Male or Female if you work for yourself time off is money out of your pocket. I don't care if it is for babies or backs. It is not different for a female or for a male. So do keep that in mind when you want to
jump into your own practice.
the funny thing is that in recent years i've found myself questioning the entier disctussion of "gender." sure, i feel empathy for women but there are often similar concerns for men too.
-breast cancer is awful, but it is possible for men (undeveloped mamary glands) to get it and die from it too...and probably suffer an added social stigma because of it.
-rape is atrocious, but there have been plenty of male victims of rape too (although admittedly most perpetrators are men).
-it's unfortunate that aging, single women are accused of being "old maids," but do single men have it much better? at best, a batchelor is accused of being a womanizer. on the hand if he's obviously not chasing skirts then he's likely to be accused of being gay or, worst case scenario, suspected of being real pervert along the lines of a child molester.
-women tend to make less money than men but as pointed out in an interesting study about american wealth (published in a book called the millionaire next door), women also tend to be the beneficiaries of more financial support from their families than men.* the authors termed this "economic outpatient care" and talked about it extensively in their chapter on "family style affirmative action". i'm not sure how valid this is today considering that i've actually heard of many women making more money than their husbands/boyfriends...but they did have a fair amount of research.
i guess my point is that things aren't necessarily better or worse for an individual based solely on gender. and if anybody gets my sympathy on account of social bias's and stereotyped gender roles then it would probably those of who qualify as intersex individuals? every time they face a bathroom in public labeled men/women, they face a cultural bias even more engrained than the old "white/black" restrooms and seating arrangements of the south. i have a genuinely difficult time trying to fathom how difficult life must be for those people.
_______________________________
*this is only marginally related but an interesting side note. as an example of the rationale of providing daughters with a more stable financial foundation consider the case of architect philip johnson. his father was a successful (but hardly rich) lawyer in cleveland during the boomtimes of the industrial revolution. because the father believed in providing for his children at the age of 18 he gave each of his daughters real estate holding (houses, i believe) but only provided young philip with a shares of stock. the stock had been given to him by one of his client for some of the legal work he had done for a yound company and the elder johnson considered it to be of unstable value, certainly not as worthy as the homes he gave his daughters. well, as it turned out philip took the stock, entered hsi freshman year at harvard and during the course of his studies that year, the stock's value (in a young company now known as alcoa) rose considerably and philip ended up being a bona fide millionaire because of it. how's that for a lucky break?
I'm going to chime in with my usual Canadian side of things, at least as I know them....
Women here get 15 weeks maternity leave, and 35 weeks of parental leave. Mom and dad can both share this time, and they often do. Because this time amounts to 50 weeks, many couples split the time, with mom returning to work at about six months, at which time dad stays home with baby for the remainder of the time.
Also, I only know one woman with a fake boob, and that's cause one didn't develop through puberty.
And as a body piercer for the last 7+ years, I can only recall ever piercing one other fake boob. I've seen thousands of boobs in my time. Fake ones here are extremely rare. Strippers usually don't even have them.
lars:
absolutely sure. I was there 5 weeks, precisely 4.5 weeks too long. The job was not, and would not be, anything like what I was promised or what was indicated in my employment package. I was promised 3 weeks of corporate training (you know, their cad formats, system, update on projects, etc) I got exactly none. Nothing at all. Without any background knowledge of a project, people would say "go pick carpet for X". Having never seen a plan, a board, a concept, anything on the project...nor knowing where to find the info (I wasn't trained or hooked up to the network so that I could even try and find a context) how the hell are you suppose to do that? Plus, though finishes might be part of the gig, I am not a decorator. I would not have taken a job with that sole responsibility.
When i finally insisted I should sit in on a DD meeting, they were talking about an entry detail and the principal pointed at me, "what would you do?" I think everyone thought I would just puppet my boss, but I thought her idea was crap. Instead of saying that, I gave a suggestion that the principal loved (I found out they actually used) and my boss got really pissy. For the next 3 weeks, she didn't talk to me unless she yelled at me because she lost something. Other newbies (male) disagreed and she was never overtly bitchy with them.
Another example: On my first day, we had a staff meeting. 3 other recent grads started with me that day, they were all men w/ BArch's. Each of their supervisors pointed them out, introduced them, and had them say where they came from & what their experience was (10+ min each). No one mentioned me until, at the end, someone said "Is that our new receptionist" and pointed at me. My immediate supervisor said, "No, she the new interiors girl"...like a bad dream, everyone say "oh", stood up and walked back to their desks.
Anyway, it goes on and on. Fighting two stigmas..
I was really disappointed because I turned down 5 other offers for this job, it paid really well w/ full benefits, and conceptually, their projects were precisely in line with my interests.
W2D, that sounds really demeaning. I'm sorry you had to endure it. I suppose it puts into perspective how interior designers feel sometimes.
For The WoMeN!!! you go gurlz!!!!
thanks WK. It is hard and, in a situation like that, you don't know if it's because of being female, in interiors, or both. I have to say that I know a lot of ID/IA women who go though 3-5 jobs really quickly right out of school because of such disrespect. Most learn that the only way to be treated like a human being is to go and work at a Interiors only firm, which is what a lot of us don't want to do. Anyway, that's why I get so upset at the general attitude amongst architects regarding designers. I've said this before, but I feel like I have to get my masters in order to practice exactly what my undergrad taught me to do, Interior Architecture. It's a bonus that I actually do want to get a master, lol...
slantsix - what's it like to live in such a civilized nation? It sounds wonderful! I love the idea of the government ensuring the couple has the time, but the couple making the decision themselves how much time they each want to take.
Lars- This article talks about whether or not Obama is "Black Enough"...it seems an absurd thing for anyone to focus on. I'm not Black or African American, but I am an African immigrant, so I think the term is rather skewed. I just like the guy and couldn't care less what color he is or isn't enough of.
Back to babies...
Try and follow me here: About 50% of woman have children in their lifetime and the average American woman has approximately 2.1 kids (it's unfortunate for the .1 ;). We also have about 5.4 million stay at home moms (so we only need paternity leave in those cases). My point is that it's not like most women are pregnant for years and years and years. Add the fact that more woman are waiting until they are older and have established careers, presumably so they can afford to take the time off, then it doesn't seem to be such a dire situation for the government. If the average woman and her partner want to take off 3-6 months(?) for the birth, it doesn't seem like such a burden. Also, women have kids and so far, we are the only sex that can (not including adoption). People are going to continue to procreate whether I agree with it or not ;) so it seems to make the most sense to set up a system where we don't have to have this constant battle and uncertainty.
rant over...back to physics homework...on a Friday night? wtf...
I have a friend with an American wife, who is trying to emigrate here to Canada. They are waiting until she's legal to get pregnant because of the ridiculous maternity leave conditions in the US.
When he told me that she'd get 5 weeks off (I think she's from Illinois), I literally could not believe it. That's utterly inhumane.
If somebody told me that they were leaving their baby at home to be babysat at five weeks old, I'd think she was crazy. The only thing crazier I can think of is that your gov't forces this on families. Unbelievable.
I was wondering if anyone worked at a firm, whether it was an interior design firm, or arch firm, and the majority was women and you were a male? If so, were your ideas considered or taken seriously? How were you treated?
My theory is that, males would endure the same kind of harassment, but to a lesser degree (MUCH LESS) because women (in a majority), tend to rationalize and be less prideful (than men), thus your (as a male) ideas won't be shot down as much, or maybe at all.
I know many of are going to disagree with me, because you may think that how a person acts is based on his or her experiences. But a lot of these experiences had a large or small cloak of some kind of prejudice.
i worked at a firm where i was outnumbered by the women six to one on our floor (four of the women were architects and two were interior designers)...they talked alot about celebrities and televison shows and would say some very awful things about paris hilton in particular. personally, i found that very offensive but just tried not to listen to it. i'm not sure if my experience qualifies as "the same kind of harrassment" that sunsetsam referrences...but it was definitely a different working environment to endure.
I agree with sunsetsam. I have worked in environments where I have been the only woman and I have also worked in environments where we've had only one or two guys. And let me tell you this... women are just as abusive as men. At least if a woman is harassed at the workplace, she can make some noise about it and have a chance of being taken seriously, whereas a man has to suck it up and just roll with the punches.
I'm not trying to imply that men have it harder than women or vice-versa. I'm just telling my experiences.
This discussion is really illuminating. Have all of these workplaces been in the US? I wonder if anyone has any experiences to share about women in European workplaces?....
Btw, what's wrong with saggy boobs? Is the search for perennially juvenile boobs the mark of perennially juvenile minds? I'm thinking of the men and the women here.
I worked for a woman. Small place. She hired another woman. Our boss disregarded the other woman's ideas a lot, and it wasn't due to her bad ideas. She had great ones. She was also constantly on her about everything, yet she did treat the men the same way.
I have to admit, the sex and race thing has been weighing a lot on my mind when it comes to joining the architectural profession-I have been hesitating a bit because of some of the horror stories I've heard about sexism and racism in the workplace. I know it happens in other professions as well, but it seems worse in male dominated professions.
Sometimes I wonder if it's worth the trouble-I'd hate to spend a lot of time and money on schooling and find I'm not welcome because I'm not the right sex or colour...and conversely, I don't want to be the token Negro/Indian/White Woman, hired only because I'm a woman and minority.
BTW-I didn't know only 50% of women were mothers...judging by all the pregnant women I've seen lately, I would have thought it was more lke 70%...wow...now I feel much better...
I should preface this by saying that I don't work in a design office, but rather a tattoo shop. Usually there's about 4 to 10 employees in any shop. At the last studio I worked at, we actually had "Sexual Harrassment Wednesdays," which were not, as you might assume, a day where we talk about the issue of sexual harrassment, but rather a day where sexual harrassment was welcomed and encouraged - jokingly, of course. Grab an ass and get away with it. It was always a joke and nobody ever took advantage. Kinda funny.
One day was even Cross-Dressing Wednesday, where everybody cross dressed, including the burly dude with the big beard who swears like a sailor. He put water balloons in a bra and everything. Amazing. He was rubbing his boobs on anybody and everybody.
I think our corporate culture is a little different than most companies and industries!
(BTW, my friend is getting a joke tattoo as we speak in another room. It's a portrait of Gandhi wearing an eyepatch, with a banner underneath that says "An eye for an eye leaves me totally skullfucked." He's also got a tattoo of a dinosaur holding a bible and giving the thumbs up, as well as another of a "transvestite monkey wrench" which is exactly what you'd assume it was. My boss just got a black Jesus tattooed on his chest, with a sacred chicken wing instead of a sacred heart. Sometimes you just gotta laugh and wonder about peoples' sanity!)
So many things to say, where to start.....
- firstly, no way should anybody get paid to stay home with their kid fo a year. It is a personal choice. Yes, there should be a reasonable maternity period, but then you decide to either get back to work, and get paid, or take time off. I say this as a woman architect who had two kids, and would NEVER have expected my neighbors (ie government tax paid program) or my boss to finance the time I took off. It was my choice, my decision, my impact on my bank account. Do all of you want to pay so your co worker can stay home and be paid? Would you contribute $1000 a year to a fund so that one employee a year could stay home? If you are in a firm of 50, thats what it would cost. Say in that average firm of 50 there were 4 men or women off with the baby at any one time. Ready for that $4000 pay cut?
- I also am now an employer, and do you realize the impact that would have on hiring women architects? Most firms are small, and in no way could afford to pay someone for a year who is not there producing billable work. Are you crazy? Guess what would happen? No women of childbearing age would be hired. Think this doesn't already happen? You have no idea how much harder it is for a married woman of that age to get a job. I am female, and I have to force myself to set aside the thought that this person I am looking at hiring is going to leave in a year to have a baby. Guess why? I have had 8 female employees leave in the past few years to have a child (one returned part time) or to move to some other part of the country to follow their husbands careers. Honestly, most male employeers who have not walked in my shoes are going to hire the guy over the female. You'll never know why you didn't get hired, they will smile to your face, but they are thinking they will not hire you.
- Your co workers without kids will hate you if you get a paid year off to raise your child. A contractor I know decided to offer family health benefits (instead of just individual) to all of his employeees. Nice idea, right? Wrong, all of his single workers had a fit, and wanted cash compensation for the $5000 differnece in the cost of the insurance, since their co workers were getting something they were not. He had to stop giving family insurance and go back to just giving individual to avoid a mutiny.
- I cannot believe how many young females focus on shallow things like getting paid for not working and fake boobs, when there is a huge amount of discrimiation in this field that they are completely blind to. Women make less money for the same work. Oh, not when you are young and right out of school. But look at salaries of women working in this profession for 20 years, and you will see a HUGE gap in salaries and advancement. My husband is an architect as well, and I could see the difference in his pay check and mine every month, although we had the same experience level and are equally qualified. Thats one reason I started my own firm
- I graduated from college 28 years ago. My graduating architecture class was 50% women. So you would think 50% of the women running firms and in parntership positions would be women, or something at least like 25%, right? NO! take a look at most firms. Maybe one woman in a partnership position out of 10 partners, and she is an interior designer or in charge of marketing, not an architect. Women have not advanced in this profession- most of the ones who are successful made their own way in their own firms. You think it is jsut because there were less women in the profession back then, but I am telling you, it is because women dropped out of the profession , some to have kids, but most because of the lack of opportunity and advancement.
- You can't complain about sexual harrassment and show up to work dressed like a slut. I recently had a young female architect come to my office for an interview, a Cornell grad, a school I also attended. She showed up in a mini skirt suit, with a slinkly low cut camisole top on under it. She was extremely busty, and was busting out of her top, so to speak. I am a female who has no interest in women's boobs, and I had to force myself not to look at them because I thought they were going to explode out of her shirt. Then she had the nerve to tell me about an interview at another firm where the male owner was staring at her chest! Want to be treated like a professional? Act the part, for god's sake. I recently was at a job site where an intern (not from my firm) was trying to prance around a muddy job site in a dress and spike heels. She ended up waiting in the car.
- Ok, enough of a rant. I'm old and I like to complain a lot. Sorry for venting, but honestly, you can't expect everything to be handed to you, and to be paid to raise your own children. This can be a wonderful profession, and is actually one that can pretty easily accommodate family life and having kids. I am able to earn a good living to provide for my family, have had fun doing it, and still enjoy work to this day. But I never expected anybody to hand anything to me. That's why this is called WORK!! Yes, it is hard, yes, you have to prove yourself, yes, you have to show you are worth it. Maybe that's why I am here on a Saturday!
great discussion topics ya'll-
WTD, wK & others with awful internship experiences--- first, go to insidearch.org and fill out a survey of the guilty firm- be brutally honest in your quotes and assesment. you will save lots of other interns from falling into the same boat.
2nd- you easily could have sued their asses. yeah, we live in a litigious society, but there are reasons to have lawyers around. sex discrimination, evangilzing, and more sucks. ok, it may have been simpler to walk away and it's really tough to prove - but who else is going to smack these folks outside the head and tell them that this behavior is unacceptable?
as a guy, I'm still trying to figure out how women doing the same job as I am get paid less? do they not ask for as much money as I do when negotiating a salary? I doubt the bosses are thinking 'oh, we can make another 20% profit if we hire a woman to do the work'. Or is there a lack of proactive advocacy for raises and such when review time rolls around?
I wondered what happened to all the women i went to school with. One of my best freind (who graduated at the top of the class) briefly taught after grad school, then decided to become a stay at home mom. she seems happy, but she was a great designer who I would have loved to work with.
I do appreciate professional attire - it's hard to concentrate on the issues in a meeting when somebody is showing too much cleavage - men are just wired that way.
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