Not to mention the handicap of having big boobs in a world where all tops are standardized to fit small ones. It blows pretty big chunks. You can't breathe all damn day long. You can't move to far to the right or left. Most of the time, unless you are heavily buttressed with extra pins, your shirt gaps/pops open at the exact wrong place at the exact wrong time day in and day out. I never want to hear a man complain about wearing a tie! Not to mention heels, makeup, the bra itself, back pain, foot pain, interminable difficulties with hair... I really despise the requirements for professional female attire.
And yes, Steven, there's a pretty strict--while silent--code for wearing makeup to the office. Heels, while they may seem "optional" to some, are well known for being one of the few things that will help a short woman command respect in the workplace. Sad, but true. Hearing my heels click down the hall toward the conference room makes a difference in the way I am received compared to the days when I am wear comfortable flat soles. It is very, very perceptible.
They may be choices, but they're not the sort of choices you can go either way with, they're the sort of choices where there's clearly a right and a wrong answer in most offices. I tried going sans makeup in the first week of the bike-to-work experiment, and I can't tell you how many comments I heard on it. "Are you feeling well?" "You're so pale today!" "Oh, did you oversleep?" I can get away without heels, but only when I'm wearing pants long enough that only the toe of my shoe peeps out. And not for a meeting.
"i'm not sure i buy the makeup, hairstyles, and heels as equivalents"
My whole point is that it's hard to find direct equivilants. But two women wearing the same base clothing will pull it off differently depending on hair, makeup, and shoe choice. So those are things that can enhance or detract from the overall professionalism of a look, which is what you claimed was your gripe earlier.
this is good, things i've always wondered about women architects' choices about clothing but would never ask a coworker. come to archinect, you get answers! now about that perfume that displaces up every cubic inch of oxygen in the office...
i actually won't get worked up (most of the time) about what anyone wears as long as no one ever picks on my constantly-changing facial hair situation.
"situation"?
make it sound like it's its own entity. I can just picture you in the morning, looking in the mirror, "ok facial hair, what stunt are you going to pull today?"
;)
Sorry, I am a little late in the conversation and I only had an opportunity to glance through the responses, so if this subject has already been covered my apologies. I honestly think we have made progress over the years, although I think women continue to face barriers. It may not seem like we've made progress, but a few decades ago, women were fortunate to get accepted to an architecture school, and after graduating, they had an uphill battle obtaining employment. Today its a lot easier getting into school and obtaining employment, but we still face barriers like equal compensation and equal admiration.
In regards to regressing – maybe we have regressed, but sometimes I think that many woman have changed their priorities – when I was growing up most women I knew wanted to be a successful business woman, and did not emphasize the importance of getting married and having children, but I don't see this trend continuing with today's generation. Are women today content with raising a family and forgoing an occupation/career?
Q+ posted an interesting article on the subject in the news room
Katze, thanks for posting the link....it is quite an acheivement for Leers Weinzapfel. Interestingly, that article touches on a lot of the topics we have been discussing in this thread. One notable section states the following:
American cultural and social attitudes concerning professional women have changed. Women have demonstrated that they have as much creative talent, technical ability, persistence and fortitude as men.
Perhaps you wonder whether a building designed by a woman embodies visual clues and functional characteristics that somehow express a feminine sensibility. Can one look at an edifice and tell that its architect was female? Is there a female architectural aesthetic?
The answer is a resounding no.
This is abundantly clear from the project portfolio of Leers Weinzapfel Associates, best known for their many award-winning civic, institutional and academic buildings.
So in this regard, I am certainly glad that we have made progress.
Sometimes I wonder about the fact that this country is so full to the brim with people and culture and attitudes....I wonder if this is the reason for such a wide variety of experiences, as demonstrated on this topic. What's good for one group of people might not always work for another.....
....but I still think socialized health care would work better for everyone!
wk
definitely agree there. i had to go to the hospital while in norway
to get checked out for something that would eventually turn out to
be mono and it was so nice. i didn't make an appointment..waited
for hardly any time at all..paid about $16 for a full checkup and
blood work...this as a foreigner with, i believe, no health insurance
and it was all very quick and thorough.
i wonder why we pay so much for health care over here for a far
less pleasant experience...
i just got health care again after four years of not having any...
i'm 34 and haven't been to the doctor in probably six or seven years.
which is probably not a good idea, but i can't afford to pay $400/
month for health insurance on top of rent on a consulating salary.
The school analogy is interesting to me. I do think that the public paying for public schools is important. We as a society need to pay for basic services for those who cannot afford to pay for them themselves.
However, would you pay for someone to stay home and teach their child? Probably not. In our society, we do pay for those who's families cannot help them. A child with no parents gets a foster home. An elderly person who can no longer take care of themselves goes to an assisted living place or a nursing home. Someone who is disabled and cannot work gets social security payments, section 8 housing, and food stamps.
However, this is much different than me saying that I want to take time off to care for my child, and someone should pay me to do this. If I am a high powered exec, and make $250,000 a year, do I get $62,000 to stay home for 3 months? But the minimum wage person only gets $4000?? Or does the government only pay minimum wage for taking care of your own kid to everyone? Would that $4,000 (after taxes you would clear like $2800 assuming your spouse is not in a higher tax bracket, then you clear less than $2,200 for three months. If you were to earn more, it would come from the employeer. This would be a huge burden on small businesses.
ok, another point of discrimination, women can rationalize cleavage as a result of the discomfort of having breasts or "the handicap of having big boobs" but most pants aren't made with the idea of accomodating a penis (let alone a large penis) and exposed cleavage certainly doesn't help.
yeah puddles. i was going to say something about the parallels between some of the items of clothing i see on women in the workplace and a man wearing a codpiece, but i refrained.
ha ha ha. I haven't read all of this here, but I absolutely CANNOT wear a button up shirt. I also can't wear most heels as my arches are seriously high and well, my feet are wide.
I'm sorry Steven, but where the HECK do you work? Even in Los Angeles, I haven't seen anything in an architecture office that I would ever think of as being parallel to a codpiece... Can you give an example?
Honestly, aside from the one glaring exeption that I believe I've described in Thread Central, all the women here wear slacks, decent shoes, and things such as button down shirts, 3/4 sleeve sweaters, or the occasional sleeveless turtleneck, or plain black fitted T (usually worn when one knows a site visit is imminent). So I'm honestly having a hard time visualizing what it is that the women around you are wearing that you find so offensive.
To address your point as delicately as possible, it is often, ahem, hard for women of this particular "handicap" to find clothes that fit them in the first place, let alone if they change size for any reason (as they are likely to do over time). But I think myriam mentioned it above so I won't be redundant.
archie, I'm glad you figured out the school analogy even though I screwed it up. :o/ And I do see your point. I don't exactly know how this works because I hate thinking about taxes but I would imagine that your compensation on maternity leave would have to be proportional to your initial tax contribution, or else that wouldn't be fair. Which would mean that you would have to be a tax-payer to receive the benefits of a maternity/paternity leave, which I am fine with.
Katze said something that i'm questioning about women being a greater number being accepted into architecture school. Has the percentage of those who've applied/accepted really gone up. Or as I suspect that many women weren't encouraged/advised that architecture school was a viable option so never applied?
Insert my younger female coworker as an example: She wears this denim mini-skirt and doesn't cross her legs while sitting at the glass conference table. Low riding dress pants with a short top that show a little tummy (pieced and tattooed of course) in front and a little bit o lacey thong at the back - the thong comes out only when she bends over or something, which is ONLY like 15 times a day. Camisoles with 1/4" straps and low cut in front.
My first office forbade skirts, perfume and heels in the office. Skirts because you look ridiculous wearing a skirt at a drafting table. Heels because you had to carry drawing sets up and down stairs, and perfume because it is just offensive. My second boss insisted you must dress up for job site visits to distinguish yourself as the professional - I never got to go on the job site with them, but the women wore tailored skirt suits and high skinny heels and pearl necklaces to jobsite meetings -???
Dare I say it....but from my own experience I believe I have lost opportunities because I am not a woman. On one occasion right out of college I was actually told by a firm "we really like you but we need to hire more women.
Additionally, in comparing my salary with other female classmates with equal experience, they are all at my level of pay or above. So, in my test sample I just am not seeing the discrimination. However this is in a very progressive upper mid-west city. I agree the outcome could say something completely different in the south, or even well established "good old boy" networks in places like NYC or LA.
What surprises me is how very few women I know have a real professional drive to be the boss, or climb the corporate ladder. Most female acquaintences all say they'd love to be a "stay at home mommy." This includes several women in architecture/design fields. After the 1960's and all their screams for equality, it seems to me many women are just fine with the way things used to be.
WHAT?! How is she not fired???? Seriously, I got a talking-to in my first couple of months on the job for far, far, less than that. They thought I was showing just a little too much boobage. I was 21 and hadn't figured out that even if it IS totally unfair that I have to wear the most uncomfortable clothing imaginable despite the same exact clothing being deemed perfectly acceptable on someone less endowed, that doesn't mean I don't still have to do it. The female boss had a discreet word with me and I immediately went home and culled my wardrobe accordingly. Has anyone even tried telling this girl, "We don't care if you have body art, but that particular location is not acceptable to be shown in the workplace, and neither are your undergarments."?
i refrained earlier because i knew that 'codpieces' would seem like a huge exaggeration. but if you think about strawbeary's first example, there are clothes that are sexy, clothes that are somewhat provocative, and these might be ok, but then there are ensembles that are about displaying sex. that's where my codpiece parallel comes in.
I guess that I just honestly didn't believe that anyone would think it was ok to wear something like that to work. I certainly have managed to aviod seeing it.
The worst my office sees is the woman who seems to only shop in the juniors section of Target, and does not dress for her considerable size. I don't think either of the bosses have said anything, and I think it's because they don't want to appear to be discriminatory against larger people.
It's not just about looking overly sexy, its about looking unprofessional (stupid), and by that I mean not appropriate for what you are doing. That means a suite and heels might be great for the presentation to the CEO of the hospital, but for the jobsite, dress like you mean business (construction business) So for example, a male architect who shows up at a muddy job site where they are welding steel in shorts, a wife beater and flip flops is going to look just as dumb as the woman show shows up in the high heels and the miniskirt. HOWEVER, women do get judged a lot more on their clothes, and we are already at a disadvantage trying to be taken seriously by constrution workers, so it is a bit more important for us to think about.
I'm just really tired of hearing a silly line like "people shouldn't have kids because of overpopulation" trotted out time and again.
I make this argument all the time. I guess being a child of the 60's and being bombarded with information about overpopulation etc, i took it to heart. Although I do love kids, I do think that it is a selfish act and often do a wtf? when i hear of someone cranking out four or five mutant inbred piglets.
rationalist, I'm pretty sure nobody is bothered by it (unless they are "hot and bothered"). But then again we are "live and let live" over here. She wears her thongs and minis, I wear my sneakers and hoodies.
I think we both get preferential treatment (get good projects, don't ever get reprimanded for being late etc, we have the best workstations, get invited on more unbillable "field trips" - which is all true) because we are the young ladies of the office and I suppose they like to have us around. We also initiate most all instances of social activity and fun in the office. So I perceive the opposite of discrimination towards the ladies here. The one young man here doesn't get as good as projects/tasks and he is often the butt of jokes (that wouldn't fly in 90% of work places). But then again us young ladies are also more aggressive (we ask to be put on the cool new projects, we come in early, stay late, ask for more work if we are slow, take on extra jobs around the office that we aren't asked to do, keep the office neat and comfy, check and double check our work for completeness, ask when we don't understand instead of pretending we do etc. which I can't say about many of the young men I've worked with.)
Which leads me to my next hypothesis. That the middle class young white boys don't really push themselves anymore. They haven't had any competition for so long and have a sense of entitlement when it comes to work and raises, titles, etc. Now that there is more opportunities for both women and minorites, those white boys better get moving or we'll leave them in the dust.
And I have to put this out there - when women started to work via the feminist movement, I think they found that their other tasks never went away - meaning running the household. So now they are like, I can do any job a man can, but I can also chose not to. When my husband asks what's for dinner, I always ask back, "I don't know, what are you making?" We both work 8-9-10 hour days. Why do I have to keep working thru the evening picking up and taking care of his ass cooking our dinner, doing our dishes, etc? Oh, and I make more... (For the record, my husband does do 1/2 the housework, but it doesn't mean I don't have to "enforce" it.)
I haven't noticed any discrimination in my office. If I am paid less, its because I didn't understand I was suppose to counter offer, ect. My husband asks for raises all the time, it never acured to me that you could do that. I think this may be part of the pay discrepancy, I don't know for sure though. Also, I feel that because I am young, 24ish, I am able to play that "like a daughter" card. This doesn't mean that I am flirty, or anything other than respectful, but it allows me to say things about designs a bit more candidly I believe. It would also mean I would NEVER assume a boss was hitting on me if he took me to a one on one lunch.
I have also found that I am much more comfortable around men than women. I feel women look down on me more, or take me less seriously. All the women in our office are either support or Interiors. I get along with the women I know well, but others seem distant or judgmental. I think this tends to be a problem between all women though. Ex. When compared, female roomates get along much worse than male roomates, in general, their are always exceptions. But we do tend to hiss and compete more with each other than with men I would say, not to say we don't compete with men, but that we compete on a whole different level, and on any subject, with women.
On staying home, ect. I do think many women are choosing to forgo the career to stay home. I personly would love to stay home the first year or two of my childs life. This is more because I want to use cloth diapers, and breast feed, and bake my own bread. But because I love Architecture so much, I know I will have to stay working. In a perfect world, I would teach early level Design classes at a college, and care for family the other hours of the day. But I wish those women who don't want the family/kids to climb that ladder as high as they want.
anybody else captivated by the new bret michaels reality show on vh1? for the first time in about six years i have a television and this show has gotten me to do a lot of thinking lately
my wife and i are partners personally and professionally. in both situations, we are equally heard and respected, and in both instances we share some of the grunt work while in other instances we each do certain chores all the time. for instance, my wife is a great cook and loves it so she does all of the cooking. i have trouble, but with her guidance i can manage. sous chef suites me fine. i love to garden and it is quite lush and demands a lot of attention not to mention my wife has a bit of a brown thumb so I do all of the gardening. then there are the less fun chores like cleaning, ironing, doing the laundry, cleaning the cat box, and picking up the dog poop. we share all of those equally. this is how it should be. i have my mom to thank for this. she was a working mother and always tasked my brother and i with cleaning, laundry, etc. my wife has often said how great i am around the house especially when she compares it to stories of some of her girlfriends.
aquapura: Most female acquaintances all say they'd love to be a "stay at home mommy." This includes several women in architecture/design fields. After the 1960's and all their screams for equality, it seems to me many women are just fine with the way things used to be.
The way things "used to be" also included women not being allowed to have personal bank accounts, own homes, initiate divorce, purchase birth control, or even apply to medical - or architecture! - colleges. That was all as recently as the 60s.
No one wants things to go back to the way they used to be. Everyone - including men - want to have freedom to make the life choices they believe are best. For me this meant sending my kid to school/daycare early, in part because I felt he could learn more and be better socialized being in a well-researched and chosen group setting. For many women, it means being their children's teacher and companion for the most important early formative years. Both of those choices should be respected, whomever makes them.
I do feel badly that men STILL do not get the respect they should when making the decision to be a stay-at-home father. I'm a huge fan of daddytypes, and he often discusses or links to others blogging on the negative reaction to stay-at-home fathers.
The whole point of the "equality" movement is that everyone has access to whatever choice they want, and is respected for having made a conscious decision that works for their circumstances, which is a good attitude for all of us to have.
Actually, my Husband, just the other night, was lamenting the male stereotype, and how people assume that he doesn't do anything house work related just because he is male. He always does the dishes, I always cook. He does any and all repair/outside work, and I do the laundry. He often cleans up the house, or helps me to. We have the work divided in such a way as to work for us, and I wouldn't complain that he doesn't do his fair share. I think it is a disservice to all men when couples divide up the work, and then complain about who does more. In our house, he does what 'we' percieve as 'man jobs," and I do what 'we' percieve as 'woman jobs.' This means that I NEVER grill, but I don't want to, and it means that he never irons, though I rarely iron either. We do each others 'jobs' from time to time, but the number of times I have taken out the trash, 'man-job' is considerably smaller than his.
Also, just out of curiousity, and sparked by something I THOUGHT WK was going to say on another thread, but didn't, why don't men get to choose what happens to a fetus/embryo/whatever its called earlier if its half their chromosones too? My husband would have been VERY VERY upset if I had 'disposed' of whatever we have growing.
On the urban planning thread, you said something about white men and birth control. I think it was you. But I THOUGHT you were going to say something about women's right to choose, but you didn't. It just got me thinking is all. I didn't want to come across as too random. I do that a lot actually.
Um....I may be wrong, as I've been posting a lot lately and have started to lose track of things, but I don't think I've even looked at that thread today.
If I had said something about it, however, I would have said that I think you're right and men in a committed relationship with a woman should have an equal say.....however if the men are not around, then the woman needs to take care of herself first. But that's just my opinion.
yeah sarah, I get/hear comments all the time about men not doing work around the house. my wife quickly corrects them and lets them know that I clean, iron, and all of that sucky stuff. i think the sterotype still exists because a lot of men don't do these things. i know my neighbor doesn't help his wife out at all. it's sad. she is running around all the time doing chores, taking her daughters to different events while he sits in the garden reading.
But I agree with myself, then and now. My post there alluded to my irritation with the fact that religious-type men, who are complete strangers feel the need to try to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies. To me it equates to the Taliban telling women they can't go to school, etc. Both extremist and both are based on a religious government.
Maybe it's selfish of me, but I'd say that even in a committed relationship, even in a marriage, the woman should have more say. Even if it's 60% to the woman and 40% to the man, or 55/45, just so that if there's a deadlock, the woman's decision is final, because it's her body that is invaded by the kid, and her health potentially at risk. Hopefully it would never really be an issue because a committed couple should be able to work through differences in that regard, but you know, it doesn't always work quite like that.
i hear what you are saying rationalist and agree that hopefully people can work through their differences, and i would hope that men would factor in the things you bring up in making their decision. as we know though, there are a lot of people out there who are not rational.
Nobody should be aborting a fetus because they feel like it. I wish I could say the only reasons people get abortions are strictly limited to instances of medical reasons, rape, incest, etc in which case it is the woman's choice.
I would say most young americans don't push themselves, but why should they? They were taught that everyone gets a trophy, and that no one is better than someone else. There has to be hierarchy for there to be something to attain.
when i was a young lower middle class white boy it was a lot of work smoking that dope and watching back to back episodes of gilligan's island before suiting up for the shift at arby's. white riot i wanna riot white riot a riot of my own. that was the 70's.
Such a good discussion!
On clothing attire in the workplace: I fully agree that the goal is professionalism. I try to dress in a way that does not deny my sex or make me look like a hag, but get seriously offended when I see other women dressed provocatively in the office. No one should EVER see your thong, or any measureable cleavage. On the other hand, I have been in meetings covered head to toe and still had to deal with a contractor leering at me. Yes, there is a responsibility to dress in a way that does not take away from the quality of your work, just as there is a responsibility for my male counterparts to grow up and not objectify me while I'm working.
On maternity leave: There is so much support out there for the benefits to a society that provides for a family's health and welfare. I think to talk about the lack of extensive, paid maternity leave as discrimination is to be using the wrong term. However, it is an ugly example of how our society is behind in accepting the role of women in the workforce. As gender roles continue to plane out and equalize, we will have to deal with providing options for working parents, mom or dad.
But what depresses me is the growing trend toward the stay-at-home-mom as "status symbol". Oh I will stay home because I don't "have" to work...this statement is so condescending. As if the only gain a female professional brings home is her paycheck. And if hubby's is large enough for the big SUV and summer camp, then the wifey should just stay home. I HOPE I am able to arrange 3 months with my future child, but expect to return to work not just for the income but because I love what I do. When I get there, I will find a way to work and care for my child.
Furthermore, the practice of women opting out of the workforce to spend a year or more caring for their families is doing NOTHING to encourage our society to make the workplace more accepting of working mothers or fathers. When you decide to take that extended leave of absence, yes you will hopefully be a successful, doting parent to your child, but the workforce just got let off the hook.
smallpotatoes.....you rock! Great points about the stay-at-home-mom as "status symbol" and letting the workplace off the hook.
And DITTO what you said about attire in the workplace. We had an intern who seemed like a dream come true in our last office....she ended up being fairly lazy and although she was nice enough she wore the most bizarre outfits to work. One day she wore a light blue velour sweatsuit to work. I think it was velour....anyway, it was weird.
I think workplace attire is just such a mixed bag for females. We are encouraged by the mainstream media to remain trendy and hip, even when what is hip might also be a form of career suicide. Also, if you don't dress well enough (meaning dowdy not slutty) you might be seen as less creative and you can bet that your female coworkers will probably rip you to shreds when you walk out of the conference room. It's a tough line to walk.
I still think I can dress in a professional, and elegant way, still feel feminine but without putting the "girls" up for sale. Too bad it seems to take a few years out of college for most women to figure this balance out. Somewhere in there it dawns on them that they should start trying to be the smart woman in the meeting instead of the pretty girl at the party.
WonderK, was the dream intern a regular offender in the inappropriate sense or just an oblivious fashion victim?
American woman.....
Not to mention the handicap of having big boobs in a world where all tops are standardized to fit small ones. It blows pretty big chunks. You can't breathe all damn day long. You can't move to far to the right or left. Most of the time, unless you are heavily buttressed with extra pins, your shirt gaps/pops open at the exact wrong place at the exact wrong time day in and day out. I never want to hear a man complain about wearing a tie! Not to mention heels, makeup, the bra itself, back pain, foot pain, interminable difficulties with hair... I really despise the requirements for professional female attire.
And yes, Steven, there's a pretty strict--while silent--code for wearing makeup to the office. Heels, while they may seem "optional" to some, are well known for being one of the few things that will help a short woman command respect in the workplace. Sad, but true. Hearing my heels click down the hall toward the conference room makes a difference in the way I am received compared to the days when I am wear comfortable flat soles. It is very, very perceptible.
They may be choices, but they're not the sort of choices you can go either way with, they're the sort of choices where there's clearly a right and a wrong answer in most offices. I tried going sans makeup in the first week of the bike-to-work experiment, and I can't tell you how many comments I heard on it. "Are you feeling well?" "You're so pale today!" "Oh, did you oversleep?" I can get away without heels, but only when I'm wearing pants long enough that only the toe of my shoe peeps out. And not for a meeting.
"i'm not sure i buy the makeup, hairstyles, and heels as equivalents"
My whole point is that it's hard to find direct equivilants. But two women wearing the same base clothing will pull it off differently depending on hair, makeup, and shoe choice. So those are things that can enhance or detract from the overall professionalism of a look, which is what you claimed was your gripe earlier.
(but yes, miniskirts are a bit no-no, regardless)
this is good, things i've always wondered about women architects' choices about clothing but would never ask a coworker. come to archinect, you get answers! now about that perfume that displaces up every cubic inch of oxygen in the office...
i actually won't get worked up (most of the time) about what anyone wears as long as no one ever picks on my constantly-changing facial hair situation.
"situation"?
make it sound like it's its own entity. I can just picture you in the morning, looking in the mirror, "ok facial hair, what stunt are you going to pull today?"
;)
Sorry, I am a little late in the conversation and I only had an opportunity to glance through the responses, so if this subject has already been covered my apologies. I honestly think we have made progress over the years, although I think women continue to face barriers. It may not seem like we've made progress, but a few decades ago, women were fortunate to get accepted to an architecture school, and after graduating, they had an uphill battle obtaining employment. Today its a lot easier getting into school and obtaining employment, but we still face barriers like equal compensation and equal admiration.
In regards to regressing – maybe we have regressed, but sometimes I think that many woman have changed their priorities – when I was growing up most women I knew wanted to be a successful business woman, and did not emphasize the importance of getting married and having children, but I don't see this trend continuing with today's generation. Are women today content with raising a family and forgoing an occupation/career?
Q+ posted an interesting article on the subject in the news room
Katze, thanks for posting the link....it is quite an acheivement for Leers Weinzapfel. Interestingly, that article touches on a lot of the topics we have been discussing in this thread. One notable section states the following:
American cultural and social attitudes concerning professional women have changed. Women have demonstrated that they have as much creative talent, technical ability, persistence and fortitude as men.
Perhaps you wonder whether a building designed by a woman embodies visual clues and functional characteristics that somehow express a feminine sensibility. Can one look at an edifice and tell that its architect was female? Is there a female architectural aesthetic?
The answer is a resounding no.
This is abundantly clear from the project portfolio of Leers Weinzapfel Associates, best known for their many award-winning civic, institutional and academic buildings.
So in this regard, I am certainly glad that we have made progress.
Sometimes I wonder about the fact that this country is so full to the brim with people and culture and attitudes....I wonder if this is the reason for such a wide variety of experiences, as demonstrated on this topic. What's good for one group of people might not always work for another.....
....but I still think socialized health care would work better for everyone!
wk
definitely agree there. i had to go to the hospital while in norway
to get checked out for something that would eventually turn out to
be mono and it was so nice. i didn't make an appointment..waited
for hardly any time at all..paid about $16 for a full checkup and
blood work...this as a foreigner with, i believe, no health insurance
and it was all very quick and thorough.
i wonder why we pay so much for health care over here for a far
less pleasant experience...
i just got health care again after four years of not having any...
i'm 34 and haven't been to the doctor in probably six or seven years.
which is probably not a good idea, but i can't afford to pay $400/
month for health insurance on top of rent on a consulating salary.
The school analogy is interesting to me. I do think that the public paying for public schools is important. We as a society need to pay for basic services for those who cannot afford to pay for them themselves.
However, would you pay for someone to stay home and teach their child? Probably not. In our society, we do pay for those who's families cannot help them. A child with no parents gets a foster home. An elderly person who can no longer take care of themselves goes to an assisted living place or a nursing home. Someone who is disabled and cannot work gets social security payments, section 8 housing, and food stamps.
However, this is much different than me saying that I want to take time off to care for my child, and someone should pay me to do this. If I am a high powered exec, and make $250,000 a year, do I get $62,000 to stay home for 3 months? But the minimum wage person only gets $4000?? Or does the government only pay minimum wage for taking care of your own kid to everyone? Would that $4,000 (after taxes you would clear like $2800 assuming your spouse is not in a higher tax bracket, then you clear less than $2,200 for three months. If you were to earn more, it would come from the employeer. This would be a huge burden on small businesses.
ok, another point of discrimination, women can rationalize cleavage as a result of the discomfort of having breasts or "the handicap of having big boobs" but most pants aren't made with the idea of accomodating a penis (let alone a large penis) and exposed cleavage certainly doesn't help.
yeah puddles. i was going to say something about the parallels between some of the items of clothing i see on women in the workplace and a man wearing a codpiece, but i refrained.
ha ha ha. I haven't read all of this here, but I absolutely CANNOT wear a button up shirt. I also can't wear most heels as my arches are seriously high and well, my feet are wide.
I'm sorry Steven, but where the HECK do you work? Even in Los Angeles, I haven't seen anything in an architecture office that I would ever think of as being parallel to a codpiece... Can you give an example?
Honestly, aside from the one glaring exeption that I believe I've described in Thread Central, all the women here wear slacks, decent shoes, and things such as button down shirts, 3/4 sleeve sweaters, or the occasional sleeveless turtleneck, or plain black fitted T (usually worn when one knows a site visit is imminent). So I'm honestly having a hard time visualizing what it is that the women around you are wearing that you find so offensive.
LOL puddles!
To address your point as delicately as possible, it is often, ahem, hard for women of this particular "handicap" to find clothes that fit them in the first place, let alone if they change size for any reason (as they are likely to do over time). But I think myriam mentioned it above so I won't be redundant.
archie, I'm glad you figured out the school analogy even though I screwed it up. :o/ And I do see your point. I don't exactly know how this works because I hate thinking about taxes but I would imagine that your compensation on maternity leave would have to be proportional to your initial tax contribution, or else that wouldn't be fair. Which would mean that you would have to be a tax-payer to receive the benefits of a maternity/paternity leave, which I am fine with.
Straw- no button-ups for me, either, as I have that horrible gapping problem that myriam described above.
<comic interlude>
Men, do you feel objectified when I say that I absolutely love that codpiece thread? And I enjoy any reference to it (thanks Steven)?
</comic interlude>
Katze said something that i'm questioning about women being a greater number being accepted into architecture school. Has the percentage of those who've applied/accepted really gone up. Or as I suspect that many women weren't encouraged/advised that architecture school was a viable option so never applied?
Insert my younger female coworker as an example: She wears this denim mini-skirt and doesn't cross her legs while sitting at the glass conference table. Low riding dress pants with a short top that show a little tummy (pieced and tattooed of course) in front and a little bit o lacey thong at the back - the thong comes out only when she bends over or something, which is ONLY like 15 times a day. Camisoles with 1/4" straps and low cut in front.
My first office forbade skirts, perfume and heels in the office. Skirts because you look ridiculous wearing a skirt at a drafting table. Heels because you had to carry drawing sets up and down stairs, and perfume because it is just offensive. My second boss insisted you must dress up for job site visits to distinguish yourself as the professional - I never got to go on the job site with them, but the women wore tailored skirt suits and high skinny heels and pearl necklaces to jobsite meetings -???
Dare I say it....but from my own experience I believe I have lost opportunities because I am not a woman. On one occasion right out of college I was actually told by a firm "we really like you but we need to hire more women.
Additionally, in comparing my salary with other female classmates with equal experience, they are all at my level of pay or above. So, in my test sample I just am not seeing the discrimination. However this is in a very progressive upper mid-west city. I agree the outcome could say something completely different in the south, or even well established "good old boy" networks in places like NYC or LA.
What surprises me is how very few women I know have a real professional drive to be the boss, or climb the corporate ladder. Most female acquaintences all say they'd love to be a "stay at home mommy." This includes several women in architecture/design fields. After the 1960's and all their screams for equality, it seems to me many women are just fine with the way things used to be.
WHAT?! How is she not fired???? Seriously, I got a talking-to in my first couple of months on the job for far, far, less than that. They thought I was showing just a little too much boobage. I was 21 and hadn't figured out that even if it IS totally unfair that I have to wear the most uncomfortable clothing imaginable despite the same exact clothing being deemed perfectly acceptable on someone less endowed, that doesn't mean I don't still have to do it. The female boss had a discreet word with me and I immediately went home and culled my wardrobe accordingly. Has anyone even tried telling this girl, "We don't care if you have body art, but that particular location is not acceptable to be shown in the workplace, and neither are your undergarments."?
i refrained earlier because i knew that 'codpieces' would seem like a huge exaggeration. but if you think about strawbeary's first example, there are clothes that are sexy, clothes that are somewhat provocative, and these might be ok, but then there are ensembles that are about displaying sex. that's where my codpiece parallel comes in.
I guess that I just honestly didn't believe that anyone would think it was ok to wear something like that to work. I certainly have managed to aviod seeing it.
The worst my office sees is the woman who seems to only shop in the juniors section of Target, and does not dress for her considerable size. I don't think either of the bosses have said anything, and I think it's because they don't want to appear to be discriminatory against larger people.
It's not just about looking overly sexy, its about looking unprofessional (stupid), and by that I mean not appropriate for what you are doing. That means a suite and heels might be great for the presentation to the CEO of the hospital, but for the jobsite, dress like you mean business (construction business) So for example, a male architect who shows up at a muddy job site where they are welding steel in shorts, a wife beater and flip flops is going to look just as dumb as the woman show shows up in the high heels and the miniskirt. HOWEVER, women do get judged a lot more on their clothes, and we are already at a disadvantage trying to be taken seriously by constrution workers, so it is a bit more important for us to think about.
I'm just really tired of hearing a silly line like "people shouldn't have kids because of overpopulation" trotted out time and again.
I make this argument all the time. I guess being a child of the 60's and being bombarded with information about overpopulation etc, i took it to heart. Although I do love kids, I do think that it is a selfish act and often do a wtf? when i hear of someone cranking out four or five mutant inbred piglets.
rationalist, I'm pretty sure nobody is bothered by it (unless they are "hot and bothered"). But then again we are "live and let live" over here. She wears her thongs and minis, I wear my sneakers and hoodies.
I think we both get preferential treatment (get good projects, don't ever get reprimanded for being late etc, we have the best workstations, get invited on more unbillable "field trips" - which is all true) because we are the young ladies of the office and I suppose they like to have us around. We also initiate most all instances of social activity and fun in the office. So I perceive the opposite of discrimination towards the ladies here. The one young man here doesn't get as good as projects/tasks and he is often the butt of jokes (that wouldn't fly in 90% of work places). But then again us young ladies are also more aggressive (we ask to be put on the cool new projects, we come in early, stay late, ask for more work if we are slow, take on extra jobs around the office that we aren't asked to do, keep the office neat and comfy, check and double check our work for completeness, ask when we don't understand instead of pretending we do etc. which I can't say about many of the young men I've worked with.)
Which leads me to my next hypothesis. That the middle class young white boys don't really push themselves anymore. They haven't had any competition for so long and have a sense of entitlement when it comes to work and raises, titles, etc. Now that there is more opportunities for both women and minorites, those white boys better get moving or we'll leave them in the dust.
And I have to put this out there - when women started to work via the feminist movement, I think they found that their other tasks never went away - meaning running the household. So now they are like, I can do any job a man can, but I can also chose not to. When my husband asks what's for dinner, I always ask back, "I don't know, what are you making?" We both work 8-9-10 hour days. Why do I have to keep working thru the evening picking up and taking care of his ass cooking our dinner, doing our dishes, etc? Oh, and I make more... (For the record, my husband does do 1/2 the housework, but it doesn't mean I don't have to "enforce" it.)
"mutant inbred piglets"
i love that line. thanks.
I haven't noticed any discrimination in my office. If I am paid less, its because I didn't understand I was suppose to counter offer, ect. My husband asks for raises all the time, it never acured to me that you could do that. I think this may be part of the pay discrepancy, I don't know for sure though. Also, I feel that because I am young, 24ish, I am able to play that "like a daughter" card. This doesn't mean that I am flirty, or anything other than respectful, but it allows me to say things about designs a bit more candidly I believe. It would also mean I would NEVER assume a boss was hitting on me if he took me to a one on one lunch.
I have also found that I am much more comfortable around men than women. I feel women look down on me more, or take me less seriously. All the women in our office are either support or Interiors. I get along with the women I know well, but others seem distant or judgmental. I think this tends to be a problem between all women though. Ex. When compared, female roomates get along much worse than male roomates, in general, their are always exceptions. But we do tend to hiss and compete more with each other than with men I would say, not to say we don't compete with men, but that we compete on a whole different level, and on any subject, with women.
On staying home, ect. I do think many women are choosing to forgo the career to stay home. I personly would love to stay home the first year or two of my childs life. This is more because I want to use cloth diapers, and breast feed, and bake my own bread. But because I love Architecture so much, I know I will have to stay working. In a perfect world, I would teach early level Design classes at a college, and care for family the other hours of the day. But I wish those women who don't want the family/kids to climb that ladder as high as they want.
anybody else captivated by the new bret michaels reality show on vh1? for the first time in about six years i have a television and this show has gotten me to do a lot of thinking lately
my wife and i are partners personally and professionally. in both situations, we are equally heard and respected, and in both instances we share some of the grunt work while in other instances we each do certain chores all the time. for instance, my wife is a great cook and loves it so she does all of the cooking. i have trouble, but with her guidance i can manage. sous chef suites me fine. i love to garden and it is quite lush and demands a lot of attention not to mention my wife has a bit of a brown thumb so I do all of the gardening. then there are the less fun chores like cleaning, ironing, doing the laundry, cleaning the cat box, and picking up the dog poop. we share all of those equally. this is how it should be. i have my mom to thank for this. she was a working mother and always tasked my brother and i with cleaning, laundry, etc. my wife has often said how great i am around the house especially when she compares it to stories of some of her girlfriends.
maybe we dont' have it so bad...though I agree with many of the comments of everyone above, this may put it in perspective
aquapura: Most female acquaintances all say they'd love to be a "stay at home mommy." This includes several women in architecture/design fields. After the 1960's and all their screams for equality, it seems to me many women are just fine with the way things used to be.
The way things "used to be" also included women not being allowed to have personal bank accounts, own homes, initiate divorce, purchase birth control, or even apply to medical - or architecture! - colleges. That was all as recently as the 60s.
No one wants things to go back to the way they used to be. Everyone - including men - want to have freedom to make the life choices they believe are best. For me this meant sending my kid to school/daycare early, in part because I felt he could learn more and be better socialized being in a well-researched and chosen group setting. For many women, it means being their children's teacher and companion for the most important early formative years. Both of those choices should be respected, whomever makes them.
I do feel badly that men STILL do not get the respect they should when making the decision to be a stay-at-home father. I'm a huge fan of daddytypes, and he often discusses or links to others blogging on the negative reaction to stay-at-home fathers.
The whole point of the "equality" movement is that everyone has access to whatever choice they want, and is respected for having made a conscious decision that works for their circumstances, which is a good attitude for all of us to have.
Actually, my Husband, just the other night, was lamenting the male stereotype, and how people assume that he doesn't do anything house work related just because he is male. He always does the dishes, I always cook. He does any and all repair/outside work, and I do the laundry. He often cleans up the house, or helps me to. We have the work divided in such a way as to work for us, and I wouldn't complain that he doesn't do his fair share. I think it is a disservice to all men when couples divide up the work, and then complain about who does more. In our house, he does what 'we' percieve as 'man jobs," and I do what 'we' percieve as 'woman jobs.' This means that I NEVER grill, but I don't want to, and it means that he never irons, though I rarely iron either. We do each others 'jobs' from time to time, but the number of times I have taken out the trash, 'man-job' is considerably smaller than his.
Also, just out of curiousity, and sparked by something I THOUGHT WK was going to say on another thread, but didn't, why don't men get to choose what happens to a fetus/embryo/whatever its called earlier if its half their chromosones too? My husband would have been VERY VERY upset if I had 'disposed' of whatever we have growing.
maybe we do need that American Man thread.
Something you thought *I* was going to say on another thread? What thread? Me? Huh? What did I miss?
On the urban planning thread, you said something about white men and birth control. I think it was you. But I THOUGHT you were going to say something about women's right to choose, but you didn't. It just got me thinking is all. I didn't want to come across as too random. I do that a lot actually.
oh, and I don't want to turn this into an abortion rights thread, it could get really messy.
Um....I may be wrong, as I've been posting a lot lately and have started to lose track of things, but I don't think I've even looked at that thread today.
If I had said something about it, however, I would have said that I think you're right and men in a committed relationship with a woman should have an equal say.....however if the men are not around, then the woman needs to take care of herself first. But that's just my opinion.
yeah sarah, I get/hear comments all the time about men not doing work around the house. my wife quickly corrects them and lets them know that I clean, iron, and all of that sucky stuff. i think the sterotype still exists because a lot of men don't do these things. i know my neighbor doesn't help his wife out at all. it's sad. she is running around all the time doing chores, taking her daughters to different events while he sits in the garden reading.
Id like to sit in a garden reading. mmmmmmm.
I agree dubK. men should have equal say in a committed relationship. it take two to make the kid, and both should decide on the future of the child.
As it turns out, it was me! 5 months ago :o)
But I agree with myself, then and now. My post there alluded to my irritation with the fact that religious-type men, who are complete strangers feel the need to try to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies. To me it equates to the Taliban telling women they can't go to school, etc. Both extremist and both are based on a religious government.
Yeah, you had me worried I had called out the wrong person, so I looked, it was you, but goodness I hadn't looked at dates, really, 5 months ago?!
I feel like we've gotten off topic. I appologise.
Maybe it's selfish of me, but I'd say that even in a committed relationship, even in a marriage, the woman should have more say. Even if it's 60% to the woman and 40% to the man, or 55/45, just so that if there's a deadlock, the woman's decision is final, because it's her body that is invaded by the kid, and her health potentially at risk. Hopefully it would never really be an issue because a committed couple should be able to work through differences in that regard, but you know, it doesn't always work quite like that.
i hear what you are saying rationalist and agree that hopefully people can work through their differences, and i would hope that men would factor in the things you bring up in making their decision. as we know though, there are a lot of people out there who are not rational.
Nobody should be aborting a fetus because they feel like it. I wish I could say the only reasons people get abortions are strictly limited to instances of medical reasons, rape, incest, etc in which case it is the woman's choice.
"Which leads me to my next hypothesis. That the middle class young white boys don't really push themselves anymore."
Yeah! now we're so equal that we can all throw out broad generalizations
based solely on stereotypes.
I would say most young americans don't push themselves, but why should they? They were taught that everyone gets a trophy, and that no one is better than someone else. There has to be hierarchy for there to be something to attain.
when i was a young lower middle class white boy it was a lot of work smoking that dope and watching back to back episodes of gilligan's island before suiting up for the shift at arby's. white riot i wanna riot white riot a riot of my own. that was the 70's.
introducing men thread.
women are welcome too...
Such a good discussion!
On clothing attire in the workplace: I fully agree that the goal is professionalism. I try to dress in a way that does not deny my sex or make me look like a hag, but get seriously offended when I see other women dressed provocatively in the office. No one should EVER see your thong, or any measureable cleavage. On the other hand, I have been in meetings covered head to toe and still had to deal with a contractor leering at me. Yes, there is a responsibility to dress in a way that does not take away from the quality of your work, just as there is a responsibility for my male counterparts to grow up and not objectify me while I'm working.
On maternity leave: There is so much support out there for the benefits to a society that provides for a family's health and welfare. I think to talk about the lack of extensive, paid maternity leave as discrimination is to be using the wrong term. However, it is an ugly example of how our society is behind in accepting the role of women in the workforce. As gender roles continue to plane out and equalize, we will have to deal with providing options for working parents, mom or dad.
But what depresses me is the growing trend toward the stay-at-home-mom as "status symbol". Oh I will stay home because I don't "have" to work...this statement is so condescending. As if the only gain a female professional brings home is her paycheck. And if hubby's is large enough for the big SUV and summer camp, then the wifey should just stay home. I HOPE I am able to arrange 3 months with my future child, but expect to return to work not just for the income but because I love what I do. When I get there, I will find a way to work and care for my child.
Furthermore, the practice of women opting out of the workforce to spend a year or more caring for their families is doing NOTHING to encourage our society to make the workplace more accepting of working mothers or fathers. When you decide to take that extended leave of absence, yes you will hopefully be a successful, doting parent to your child, but the workforce just got let off the hook.
smallpotatoes.....you rock! Great points about the stay-at-home-mom as "status symbol" and letting the workplace off the hook.
And DITTO what you said about attire in the workplace. We had an intern who seemed like a dream come true in our last office....she ended up being fairly lazy and although she was nice enough she wore the most bizarre outfits to work. One day she wore a light blue velour sweatsuit to work. I think it was velour....anyway, it was weird.
I think workplace attire is just such a mixed bag for females. We are encouraged by the mainstream media to remain trendy and hip, even when what is hip might also be a form of career suicide. Also, if you don't dress well enough (meaning dowdy not slutty) you might be seen as less creative and you can bet that your female coworkers will probably rip you to shreds when you walk out of the conference room. It's a tough line to walk.
I still think I can dress in a professional, and elegant way, still feel feminine but without putting the "girls" up for sale. Too bad it seems to take a few years out of college for most women to figure this balance out. Somewhere in there it dawns on them that they should start trying to be the smart woman in the meeting instead of the pretty girl at the party.
WonderK, was the dream intern a regular offender in the inappropriate sense or just an oblivious fashion victim?
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