As projects progress into the construction phase, all of the little or big but ultimatly expensive things that were left out of the CDs appear and kick the architect in the balls. That is apparently how it goes, in my limited experience as an intern, who has only been working for about 3.5 years post graduation in a small enough firm where I end up with alot of responsibilities.
The real test is how someone deals with these minor or major humiliations, the eventual solution, and lesson learned.
So that is the logical approach to these problems that pop up in the field.
However, there is, at least for me, a lingering emotional problem.
Intense and some-what crippling self doubt and depression, which starts to pile up.
So I obviously need to get over myself, but need some advise.
Don't beat yourself up over it. It's just part of the learning process that comes along with being an intern. I think we've all been there. I know I've made some stupid mistakes (also working at a very small firm). You just have to admit your errors and take the initiative to correct them. Things get better in time.
As Medusa said, don't beat yourself up over it. We have all been there - I've been practicing for 12 years and still weekly say to myself "How have I managed to fool all these people into thinking I know what I'm doing?!?"
But! Do file every mistake away in your brain so that when a similar situation comes up you can refer to it. Ask yourself what you should have done differently to avoid this problem, then implement that next time.
If you can, get someone higher up in the firm to review final cd's a week before they go out - to make sure everything is coordinated, no details are left out, etc. This type of quality control takes serious commitment on the part of the firm, but is important in preventing the expensive mistakes later. Just work the review time into the schedule.
And remember: in the field, never say "Oh sh*t that was a mistake!" Tell the contractor you need to go back to the office to check your notes. If it is in fact a mistake on your part, you'll be able to deal with it better after you catch your breath and come up with a possible solution.
A bunch of years ago, when I was feeling particularly 'fraudulent' about my qualifications, a senior architect said to me: 'we're not expected to be perfect, but we are expected to be conscientious'.
And, by the way, you're probably responsible for far fewer mistakes than you feel responsible for.
I also find it easy to beat myself up about everything that doesn't go right, even before I assess whether I should have caught it - gut reaction, I guess.
Really, just understand each project requires a certian amount of precise infomation. Things that have a critical role in how their incorporated into the project. Usually, in the predesign phase make a list of notes to yourself of things that require attention or need further investigation. "Oh shit!" moments happen with every project. Also, understanding roles and responsiblities of the different players in a project is helpful by making sure your not wasting time working on something that isn't your responsiblity. Always ask for someone to look over the work your are preparing. It's good to have a fresh pair of eyes to spot gross mistakes and ask questions.
Quality control is definately something that was under-developed at my firm. Thanks to my "contributions", we have been working on a QC system and check list, so that's good. The list also serves as a great monument to my inadequecies.
No one at my office has really offered any "I've been there" stories, so it is comforting to hear that other people have been through similar things.
ultimately it's the responsibility of the person stamping the drawings
to check and make sure that everything is accounted for. at your
level of experience you shouldn't really be responsible for all the
drawings/specs etc. so in some ways it may be your fault, but your
pm and pa should get a swift kick as well for not doing their jobs.
the main thing i would say is that:
1. note the hell out of your drawings to show intent and to add money
to the job. as long as you do this conscientiously and don't go crazy
you'll be able to v.e. later, but won't run into as many change orders
as well. as long as it's done with forethought it can save your ass.
2. make sure you have a great spec.
3. don't try to make quick decisions on site..especially if you're not
accompanied by someone older who may know that what you're saying
can't happen, would add cost, etc. most questions on the job should
probably be studied at the office after taking measurements on site
as well... they should also be handled via RFIs and SKs so that there
is a paper trail and cost implications are more clear. imo CA is when
most of the design seems to take place nowadays. with compressed
schedules CA has sort of become part of the CD process.
Internally, I once referred to our "for construction set" as a 100% CD set. I was swiftly reminded that it should not be called a 100% set. (I think this has been discussed on Archinect...I just cannot recall which thread). A colleague once said, (more eloquently than I am about to) "We believe that our documents are at least 95% complete/coordinated. It just is not possible to have a 100% complete/coordinated set. In turn, we expect that same 95% in the level of quality of the sub-contractors' shop drawings."
Like others stated above, it's somewhat understandable if you missed something in the CD's. Just hope it's not a huge problem. Take your time to document the question and the solution, and collaborate with the GC to give him/her the information needed to build a great project.
larslarson: your statement about how CA is when
most of the design seems to take place nowadays. with compressed
schedules CA has sort of become part of the CD process resonates with me. It has come to my mind a lot recently. The CD's suggest design intent, but the shop drawings are really the documents that the GC should be using to construct the project.
Wouldn't some architects like to believe that their mission is accomplished upon their delivery of the CD package. When I worked for a cookie-cutter home architect, our involvement generally ended when we issued the CD set (a "builder's set" if you will).
To respond to the initial thread topic, it's probably good that you have the opportunity to fix the mistakes. Do you really want the GC to have to guess at the best way to fix the problem? He/she might not find a solution that is the best architecturally.
lib's point is spot on. my crippling factor is what i am going through now, i have my own thoughts about what architecture is and isn't, so it's really difficult to work for a firm and not for yourself. it's difficult because you are not really trying to satisfy architecture, you are trying to satisfy what your superiors are thinking is right, but that thought is always in their head and is never really expressed to you. so you play the never ending guessing game. i suffer for it on some level, and at the same time i keep trying to learn what i can.
beta, that is a point of contention for me in my office as well. However that sparks a whole other discussion which some day I hope to have, or rather, whine about.
So for now, each project serves as a lesson whether I agree with the design intent or not. And each subsequent mistake in these projects is even more of a lesson.
However, It is hard to rationalize getting all worked up over mistakes in a project that I don't deeply care about.
Perhaps these mistake are a kind of subliminal sabotage.
after about $300,000 worth of site grading and concrete work, we have just come to the realazation that our survey in out over 2' in elevation over our hiilside site....
mdler, i've heard those stories...i don't know about two feet but i was talking to a framer who went over the height limit and he said he had to raise the ground with dirt...
when i go to the site, whether is the contractor/consultants mistakes, i see it as a problem. and the problem need to be solved by working as a team.
from my experiences, whenever a project run too smoothy and without problems, either a big problem lying ahead or we are doing something really not interesting.
The timing of this thread coming back to life is pretty amazing.
I'm currently going through CA on a building that, so far , we're switching construction types and code analysis mid-construction and we've found out that our door head heights conflict within the drawings and thus one has been set in the wrond place.
The shop drawings were sequenced in such a way that the head height mistake was caught in the store front shop drawings, which were brought to our office for review a few months later than the steel shops.
And, of course, both the Code Analysis mistake and the door head mistake (which is relatively minor), surface at the same time.
So we are certainly focused on a solution to both problems, but, GODDAMNIT!
aspect, i agree. frankly, it's always better to avoid the finger-pointing and the refusal to compromise.
between my 2nd and 3rd years of architecture school, i worked for an architecture firm doing CA on a small school addition. the contractor blatantly made a mistake and i was pretty po'd about it. i came home and was ranting about it to my dad. i wanted to nail that sob contractor to the wall he messed up.
he said, son, solve the problem and don't blame anybody. give the contractor the benefit of the doubt. you'll never regret it. he was right.
the next three mistakes i made, no problem, the contractor was my buddy.
Comic relief, on topic:
I accidently ordered a couple hundred $$ worth of prints for the contractor - they were the wrong ones, an older set before some revisions, my fault. He left me a really long message where he just kept repeating himself in his annoying slow drawl, he got a real power trip out of it, transcribed here for your enjoyment: "What ARE these? These should be DESTROYED, where did the printer GET these? This just ADDS to the CONFUSION, YOU are HOLDING the job UP. I don't KNOW what you were THINKING, how do these even still EXIST? They are the WRONG drawings, WRONG structural, WRONG architectural, they are WRONG WRONG WRONG and you can come here and pick them up because I don't want them, what a waste. (pause) What are my subs going to do with THESE? They are the wrong drawings, and ANYWAYS, they are the wrong drawings... As for the schedule, well we haven't really started yet, the guy might come out next week to start laying the foundation out, but really, there's nothing to see yet, so uh, you don't need to plan a site visit just yet, maybe in a week or two." Maybe you have to hear it, but it is HILAROUS! And I am holding the project up? He's had the permit since last summer and is thinking it might start next week? The project was supposed to be done Jan 07, and we are sitting here contemplating laying out the foundation in March 07? He better be worried his permit will expire. I'm hardly worried about ordering a few wrong prints.
Everytime he calls me, which is usually after hours because he doesn't like to converse, just bitch and whine, he introduces himself, first and last name, v e r y s l o w l y and then gives me the full project name (which is 7 words long), it almost sounds like he is reading it, then he starts with how whatever answer he needs from me needed to be answered yesterday because I am holding up the project and COSTING him MONEY. I save all his messages and play them outloud for my homies so we can have a good laugh. His most famous quote is, "I'm not dumb you know."
Once upon a time, I was working for a firm that designed an emergency room addition to a suburban hospital.
The addition had a "flat" roof, but as we all know, no roof should totally flat. There's two ways you can make a "flat" roof not be flat: slope the structure, or taper the rigid insulation.
Somehow, on this project, both methods for sloping the roof were employed. What's more, the slope of the structure and the slope of the tapered insulation ran in opposite directions, thereby cancelling each other out, and resulting in a roof that was truly flat as a pancake.
This wasn't discovered until the addition was open for business, and the area experienced its first major spring thunderstorm.
BObby, that's the "feel the pain" conversation. i just got a load of that from my boss a couple of hours ago. chewed me out for specifying wood exterior sliding doors instead of aluminum. i explained why i had put wood on the schedule but he had to add "that door schedule was embarassing, i was embarassed to have shown it to the client"...i get the same shit about delaying some things on the job...
got chewed out for the way i was dimensioning things as well...ruined my lunch break stressing over the mistakes and most likely i'll be calling a friend after work to play guitar and drink...
The sooner you realize that you'll always make mistakes, the sooner you can move on. The only time to worry is when you start REPEATING mistakes. Focus on solutions rather than finger-pointing, and you'll be fine.
damn...i'm gonna be off this weekend, just got a phone call from my boss asking why i didn't call the client to let them know that the carpenter canceled his saturday morning appointment...fuckin' shit!...this is gonna fuck up my weekend it's already fuckin it up now...
bosss is in lake tahoe vacationing and got a phone call from the client...awaiting the chew out on monday...
After many years still there is a shaky feeling whenever "fit for construction" stamp is being put on the drawings.....feeling that from that moment onward your work is open to scrutiny by all out there.
there is a reason that you took the time out of school working. Its so that you can learn. Don't beat yourself up for it | in any case blame should fall on the person who checked the drawings aka red:line - whom I assume should be a senior person
Both the site manager and I made mistakes in the opening dimensions for the doors and windows of a house that we have under construction. We made separate mistakes which has made it all the more expensive to fix. The building is made of Faswall so it will only take some cutting of the blocks to fix. They have not yet been filled with concrete thank goodness. My mistake was not reading the shop drawings close enough for the rough opening dimensions. The door manufacturer made the rough openings wider than what I thought they would be. I wanted to look at archinect to see how others have dealt with their mistakes. This thread has helped me immensely. Thanks to all for sharing your stories. I hope this thread continues. Mistakes will never stop happening. We learn from our mistakes and we can learn from others as well.
A great boss once told me that if a drawing set is made up of 100,000 individual decision and you make 99% of them correctly, then you still made 1,000 mistakes.
mistakes and the morons that make them
As projects progress into the construction phase, all of the little or big but ultimatly expensive things that were left out of the CDs appear and kick the architect in the balls. That is apparently how it goes, in my limited experience as an intern, who has only been working for about 3.5 years post graduation in a small enough firm where I end up with alot of responsibilities.
The real test is how someone deals with these minor or major humiliations, the eventual solution, and lesson learned.
So that is the logical approach to these problems that pop up in the field.
However, there is, at least for me, a lingering emotional problem.
Intense and some-what crippling self doubt and depression, which starts to pile up.
So I obviously need to get over myself, but need some advise.
Don't beat yourself up over it. It's just part of the learning process that comes along with being an intern. I think we've all been there. I know I've made some stupid mistakes (also working at a very small firm). You just have to admit your errors and take the initiative to correct them. Things get better in time.
dont make the same mistakes again, and pass on the wisdom to those below you....
try poring through the shop drawings with a fine-tooth comb so that you can find the mistakes there instead of in the field.
As Medusa said, don't beat yourself up over it. We have all been there - I've been practicing for 12 years and still weekly say to myself "How have I managed to fool all these people into thinking I know what I'm doing?!?"
But! Do file every mistake away in your brain so that when a similar situation comes up you can refer to it. Ask yourself what you should have done differently to avoid this problem, then implement that next time.
If you can, get someone higher up in the firm to review final cd's a week before they go out - to make sure everything is coordinated, no details are left out, etc. This type of quality control takes serious commitment on the part of the firm, but is important in preventing the expensive mistakes later. Just work the review time into the schedule.
And remember: in the field, never say "Oh sh*t that was a mistake!" Tell the contractor you need to go back to the office to check your notes. If it is in fact a mistake on your part, you'll be able to deal with it better after you catch your breath and come up with a possible solution.
A bunch of years ago, when I was feeling particularly 'fraudulent' about my qualifications, a senior architect said to me: 'we're not expected to be perfect, but we are expected to be conscientious'.
And, by the way, you're probably responsible for far fewer mistakes than you feel responsible for.
I also find it easy to beat myself up about everything that doesn't go right, even before I assess whether I should have caught it - gut reaction, I guess.
mistakes and the morons WHO make them
deny,deny,deny,
Really, just understand each project requires a certian amount of precise infomation. Things that have a critical role in how their incorporated into the project. Usually, in the predesign phase make a list of notes to yourself of things that require attention or need further investigation. "Oh shit!" moments happen with every project. Also, understanding roles and responsiblities of the different players in a project is helpful by making sure your not wasting time working on something that isn't your responsiblity. Always ask for someone to look over the work your are preparing. It's good to have a fresh pair of eyes to spot gross mistakes and ask questions.
Quality control is definately something that was under-developed at my firm. Thanks to my "contributions", we have been working on a QC system and check list, so that's good. The list also serves as a great monument to my inadequecies.
No one at my office has really offered any "I've been there" stories, so it is comforting to hear that other people have been through similar things.
ultimately it's the responsibility of the person stamping the drawings
to check and make sure that everything is accounted for. at your
level of experience you shouldn't really be responsible for all the
drawings/specs etc. so in some ways it may be your fault, but your
pm and pa should get a swift kick as well for not doing their jobs.
the main thing i would say is that:
1. note the hell out of your drawings to show intent and to add money
to the job. as long as you do this conscientiously and don't go crazy
you'll be able to v.e. later, but won't run into as many change orders
as well. as long as it's done with forethought it can save your ass.
2. make sure you have a great spec.
3. don't try to make quick decisions on site..especially if you're not
accompanied by someone older who may know that what you're saying
can't happen, would add cost, etc. most questions on the job should
probably be studied at the office after taking measurements on site
as well... they should also be handled via RFIs and SKs so that there
is a paper trail and cost implications are more clear. imo CA is when
most of the design seems to take place nowadays. with compressed
schedules CA has sort of become part of the CD process.
Internally, I once referred to our "for construction set" as a 100% CD set. I was swiftly reminded that it should not be called a 100% set. (I think this has been discussed on Archinect...I just cannot recall which thread). A colleague once said, (more eloquently than I am about to) "We believe that our documents are at least 95% complete/coordinated. It just is not possible to have a 100% complete/coordinated set. In turn, we expect that same 95% in the level of quality of the sub-contractors' shop drawings."
Like others stated above, it's somewhat understandable if you missed something in the CD's. Just hope it's not a huge problem. Take your time to document the question and the solution, and collaborate with the GC to give him/her the information needed to build a great project.
larslarson: your statement about how CA is when
most of the design seems to take place nowadays. with compressed
schedules CA has sort of become part of the CD process resonates with me. It has come to my mind a lot recently. The CD's suggest design intent, but the shop drawings are really the documents that the GC should be using to construct the project.
instead of 100 percent cd's just put "mission accomplished" on your cd set!
haha - that's great, vado.
Wouldn't some architects like to believe that their mission is accomplished upon their delivery of the CD package. When I worked for a cookie-cutter home architect, our involvement generally ended when we issued the CD set (a "builder's set" if you will).
To respond to the initial thread topic, it's probably good that you have the opportunity to fix the mistakes. Do you really want the GC to have to guess at the best way to fix the problem? He/she might not find a solution that is the best architecturally.
lib's point is spot on. my crippling factor is what i am going through now, i have my own thoughts about what architecture is and isn't, so it's really difficult to work for a firm and not for yourself. it's difficult because you are not really trying to satisfy architecture, you are trying to satisfy what your superiors are thinking is right, but that thought is always in their head and is never really expressed to you. so you play the never ending guessing game. i suffer for it on some level, and at the same time i keep trying to learn what i can.
beta, that is a point of contention for me in my office as well. However that sparks a whole other discussion which some day I hope to have, or rather, whine about.
So for now, each project serves as a lesson whether I agree with the design intent or not. And each subsequent mistake in these projects is even more of a lesson.
However, It is hard to rationalize getting all worked up over mistakes in a project that I don't deeply care about.
Perhaps these mistake are a kind of subliminal sabotage.
I SAY FUCK IT! just do whats right and tell the rest to fuck themselves. :)
after about $300,000 worth of site grading and concrete work, we have just come to the realazation that our survey in out over 2' in elevation over our hiilside site....
mdler, i've heard those stories...i don't know about two feet but i was talking to a framer who went over the height limit and he said he had to raise the ground with dirt...
dammson
I heard a story about a building in Santa Monica that was over the height limit by around 6". It was steel framed. Owner was never able to get permit
when i go to the site, whether is the contractor/consultants mistakes, i see it as a problem. and the problem need to be solved by working as a team.
from my experiences, whenever a project run too smoothy and without problems, either a big problem lying ahead or we are doing something really not interesting.
The timing of this thread coming back to life is pretty amazing.
I'm currently going through CA on a building that, so far , we're switching construction types and code analysis mid-construction and we've found out that our door head heights conflict within the drawings and thus one has been set in the wrond place.
The shop drawings were sequenced in such a way that the head height mistake was caught in the store front shop drawings, which were brought to our office for review a few months later than the steel shops.
And, of course, both the Code Analysis mistake and the door head mistake (which is relatively minor), surface at the same time.
So we are certainly focused on a solution to both problems, but, GODDAMNIT!
when i first glanced at this thread title i misread "morons" as "mormons"
aspect, i agree. frankly, it's always better to avoid the finger-pointing and the refusal to compromise.
between my 2nd and 3rd years of architecture school, i worked for an architecture firm doing CA on a small school addition. the contractor blatantly made a mistake and i was pretty po'd about it. i came home and was ranting about it to my dad. i wanted to nail that sob contractor to the wall he messed up.
he said, son, solve the problem and don't blame anybody. give the contractor the benefit of the doubt. you'll never regret it. he was right.
the next three mistakes i made, no problem, the contractor was my buddy.
Sorry to disappoint Bryan.
It would be nice to get the mormon take on things. There would certainly be less cursing.
Comic relief, on topic:
I accidently ordered a couple hundred $$ worth of prints for the contractor - they were the wrong ones, an older set before some revisions, my fault. He left me a really long message where he just kept repeating himself in his annoying slow drawl, he got a real power trip out of it, transcribed here for your enjoyment: "What ARE these? These should be DESTROYED, where did the printer GET these? This just ADDS to the CONFUSION, YOU are HOLDING the job UP. I don't KNOW what you were THINKING, how do these even still EXIST? They are the WRONG drawings, WRONG structural, WRONG architectural, they are WRONG WRONG WRONG and you can come here and pick them up because I don't want them, what a waste. (pause) What are my subs going to do with THESE? They are the wrong drawings, and ANYWAYS, they are the wrong drawings... As for the schedule, well we haven't really started yet, the guy might come out next week to start laying the foundation out, but really, there's nothing to see yet, so uh, you don't need to plan a site visit just yet, maybe in a week or two." Maybe you have to hear it, but it is HILAROUS! And I am holding the project up? He's had the permit since last summer and is thinking it might start next week? The project was supposed to be done Jan 07, and we are sitting here contemplating laying out the foundation in March 07? He better be worried his permit will expire. I'm hardly worried about ordering a few wrong prints.
Everytime he calls me, which is usually after hours because he doesn't like to converse, just bitch and whine, he introduces himself, first and last name, v e r y s l o w l y and then gives me the full project name (which is 7 words long), it almost sounds like he is reading it, then he starts with how whatever answer he needs from me needed to be answered yesterday because I am holding up the project and COSTING him MONEY. I save all his messages and play them outloud for my homies so we can have a good laugh. His most famous quote is, "I'm not dumb you know."
Once upon a time, I was working for a firm that designed an emergency room addition to a suburban hospital.
The addition had a "flat" roof, but as we all know, no roof should totally flat. There's two ways you can make a "flat" roof not be flat: slope the structure, or taper the rigid insulation.
Somehow, on this project, both methods for sloping the roof were employed. What's more, the slope of the structure and the slope of the tapered insulation ran in opposite directions, thereby cancelling each other out, and resulting in a roof that was truly flat as a pancake.
This wasn't discovered until the addition was open for business, and the area experienced its first major spring thunderstorm.
Wow, LiG, that's both wrong and expensive...
BObby, that's the "feel the pain" conversation. i just got a load of that from my boss a couple of hours ago. chewed me out for specifying wood exterior sliding doors instead of aluminum. i explained why i had put wood on the schedule but he had to add "that door schedule was embarassing, i was embarassed to have shown it to the client"...i get the same shit about delaying some things on the job...
got chewed out for the way i was dimensioning things as well...ruined my lunch break stressing over the mistakes and most likely i'll be calling a friend after work to play guitar and drink...
The sooner you realize that you'll always make mistakes, the sooner you can move on. The only time to worry is when you start REPEATING mistakes. Focus on solutions rather than finger-pointing, and you'll be fine.
damn...i'm gonna be off this weekend, just got a phone call from my boss asking why i didn't call the client to let them know that the carpenter canceled his saturday morning appointment...fuckin' shit!...this is gonna fuck up my weekend it's already fuckin it up now...
bosss is in lake tahoe vacationing and got a phone call from the client...awaiting the chew out on monday...
dammson, have a good stiff drink on me - you deserve it. No worries! Cheers:)
After many years still there is a shaky feeling whenever "fit for construction" stamp is being put on the drawings.....feeling that from that moment onward your work is open to scrutiny by all out there.
there is a reason that you took the time out of school working. Its so that you can learn. Don't beat yourself up for it | in any case blame should fall on the person who checked the drawings aka red:line - whom I assume should be a senior person
Both the site manager and I made mistakes in the opening dimensions for the doors and windows of a house that we have under construction. We made separate mistakes which has made it all the more expensive to fix. The building is made of Faswall so it will only take some cutting of the blocks to fix. They have not yet been filled with concrete thank goodness. My mistake was not reading the shop drawings close enough for the rough opening dimensions. The door manufacturer made the rough openings wider than what I thought they would be. I wanted to look at archinect to see how others have dealt with their mistakes. This thread has helped me immensely. Thanks to all for sharing your stories. I hope this thread continues. Mistakes will never stop happening. We learn from our mistakes and we can learn from others as well.
^jcrarch
find the thread about shop drawings, what they are and what the architects role is...
A great boss once told me that if a drawing set is made up of 100,000 individual decision and you make 99% of them correctly, then you still made 1,000 mistakes.
This is why new graduates don't make $50k out of school or even $70k with three years experience.
They were not taught this stuff in school and your employer is paying through salary and mistakes to educate you.
Good luck.
Someone on this site said it perfectly a bit ago:
"You'll magically make way less mistakes when you are the boss."
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