In concert with what has already been said by beta, evilp, LIG and mightylittle above, I'd like to add to the Obama v. Hillary debate:
I think that we can all agree that these are still human beings we're talking about (except for Romney, who's a robot), so things like them getting choked up at a press conference shouldn't make a difference. I like Hillary, Edwards, especially Richardson, and even Ron Paul and McCain for varying reasons, but what I like about Obama is that he is NOT the establishment. In the year that I've been on his mailing list, I've gotten emails from him asking ME what my "big idea for the country" is. He's asking the people what direction they want their own country to go in, and he's not taking money from special interest groups. Hillary, on the other hand, scares me when I think about how many different groups are in her pocket....especially the health care industry, which she promises to overhaul? How can she promise health care to all Americans when she's beholden to the corporate suits who don't care about our health, but our money? Whereas, Obama isn't beholden to anyone thus far, but the people who are fighting for him.
This, in addition to many of his stances on policy, i.e. his willingness to engage with "Axis of Evil" entities, are the reasons that I am supporting him.
jafidler, what's your beef, anyway? Why won't you look at the links? Why do you have such a problem with everyone else's support of Obama? Why is being inspired by a politician for the first time in years not enough for you?
PS. To LIG, evilp, mighty, and beta.....we've almost got the four corners of the country covered here....we're like the A-Team.....except maybe the O-Team.....
I'm beginning to see schwartzineger as the only decent republican - too bad he will never be president.
a question to ask of the candidates is how they deal with admitting a mistake. most of the field (D & R) has just as many problems as the shrub in admitting they were wrong or listening to the folks that show that they are wrong.
I have yet to hear barak state that he's the smartest person in the room and that does say something about his leadership potential.
oh god, schwarzenegger started off with great promises to balance the budget and 'clean up sacramento' but has been an absolute failure for california.
we now have a larger deficit than when gray davis was is office. spending is out of control. he hasn't been tough like he promised.
schwarzenegger is horrible. and despite the 'r' by his name, he is not a republican or conservative.
that's my one hope with obama, that if he's elected he may put arnie in his cabinet (please take him away from california, please hear my pleas!).
it won't be tough, so long as kaliforn-i-an's build in the brush hills, and refuse to have a sane forestry policy. perhaps a war with mexico would help?
but what I like about Obama is that he is NOT the establishment.. ... I've gotten emails from him asking ME what my "big idea for the country" is. He's asking the people what direction they want their own country to go in
Sounds like just another populist politician. Nothing new in my book. But hey, the Obama thread has almost 3:1 as many posts as the Hillary thread and has kept at the top of the discussion lists. Guess we know how the Archinectors are going to vote.
also not new - 'i'm not a washington insider! i'm going to clean up the corruption. i'm a uniter, not a divider' (george w. bush, 2000 election rhetoric)
*i'm not republican, i'm not a democrat*
i have to give you archinectors kudos for doing research on the candidates you're supporting... most of america had to be interrupted last night during the Biggest Loser to see any media coverage of the NH primary. (irony is a bitch).
a few months ago i did my own research into the democratic candidates in an attempt to find the worst of the worst of each of them and run a tally. i have to say, i was slighted towards edwards when i started- for a lot of reasons. as i went forward i was finding that he had some legal troubles with some of the hurricane katrina victims and started a fund for them in hopes of keeping most of that quiet- which has worked because i really haven't heard much of it (although that is not saying much). the laundry list is long on hillary. the worst i could find about obama was a land dispute and his chicago school economics + thatcherism- which is pretty fucking scary.
when it was all said and done i am leaning towards kucinich + ron paul. i appreciate obama's magnetism- he was here in charlottesville a month ago- and it's amazing. but i really admire ron paul and his questioning of our entire economic system, especially bernanke and fed reserve. our economy is hanging by a thread right now...
There are a number of good candidates. I'm sure that Hillary would make an okay president, probably a good one... She has experience and she's a smart woman, she has a good plan. But there has to be something said for strength of character and the charisma in a leader to produce real change... Being able to connect with people, not having special interests in the pocket.
What stands out about Obama is that he can make people believe in him... I mean, the guy has become an overnight cult hero in Germany... He's a likable guy, and has what it takes to make people, at home and abroad actually believe in America... Idealist maybe, but I'd take an a strong, intelligent, open idealist over a strong, intelligent, but angry realist any day.
I just can't see Hillary being broadly likable enough to change international opinion of America the way Obama can. I don't see Hillary having a fanbase among independants and republicans, or Germans and other foreigners for that matter... Establishment, whatever party you come from is still old party politics, drawing boundaries, and I'm not sure that it can really change anything substantially enough to change public opinion, America's political and moral standing in the global marketplace, and bring a sense of optimism and inspiration that can turn our economy around. Sorry, we just need to throw party politics out the window because it doesn't work...
Economy is driven as much by inspiration as it is by governmental policy. Economy, markets are ultimately driven by people. A spirit of optimism, a belief in change encourages social action in the population, consumer spending, and productivity of industries and workforce. Politicians don't produce change by themselves, it's people. There has to be common ground for social relations, commercial relations, public engagement, and innovation of any kind to take place... People need to take action for change to happen, they have to care about something, rather than be stuck in a state of complacency, or powerlessness.
I tend to lean Democrat, but I don't think that what America needs right now is any kind of strongly partisan president. The country needs to be brought together, not further divided by finger pointing, or party politics, or mild outrage. To be honest, I think a more middle of the road president like Obama or even McCain, less establishment focused, able to unify is more promising...
I'd love to see Obama vs. McCain in 2008. To be honest... Hillary vs. McCain, I'm not certain that Hillary would win... Republicans don't like her... I'm not sure that she can win independants and moderate Republicans, or even mild Democrats...
i really admire ron paul and his questioning of our entire economic system, especially bernanke and fed reserve. our economy is hanging by a thread right now...
How true that statement is. I'm very very fearful of how both the congress/president and the federal reserve will react to the slowdown in the economy. I'm worried the academics at the reserve and the general idiocy of our elected officials have a good chance of stirring up another great depression.
Dont be fooled. These Clintons are the slipperyest of turds. How is that Obama just shoots up 13 points in 24 hours only to lose by 3? How is it they have in one week exhausted the word change, and reframed the debate to be a polarizing college students and minorities versus women? Im telling you these guys cant be trusted - NH moves its primary to the week before classes begin again for spring, they got Fla to move ahead of super Tues., her greatest area of support. I wouldnt doubt it if Edwards stays in long enough to spoil it for Obama.
But we could hope he throws his large crowd Obam's way.
Obama got another endorsement today, Governor of Arizona. I emailed the NJ governor, because even though Obama stumped for him, he endorsed Hil last April, I told him to reconsider.
I had not seen that evilp. That really bothers me that the Clinton camp drew up the lawsuit right after the union endorsed Obama. I thought we were past trying to prevent people from voting? Apparently not.
Dont forget that in Iowa and NH the national Democratic comittee made sure they occured on the week before the bulk of the students returned from their christmas breaks, in time to vote.
some one somewhere at some time was wondering about where some of the really cool 'underground' sort of graphics for obama were coming from... i cant remember on which thread, or who was asking...
but here they are
Is anyone pissed off at Bill Clinton for going against Barack in such a nasty way? How can an ex-president destroy a viable future for the Democratic party (even if he does not win the nomination) for the foreseeable future? The Clintons would destroy their own party if ti brings them power. It is shameful, reminds me of what Bush did to McCain in SC in '00.
If Hillary is not careful he, and his lack of control, will easily cause here the election.
that article is ridiculous.
Though i understand the point he's trying to make, i dont buy for one second that such vast swaths of the public like "white votes" and "black votes" can be lumped together.
The notion that baracks ability to mobilze the black vote will mobilze a white backlash is not only far fetched, but is largely untrue for huge areas of the country.
i haven't read the article, but i would imagine it's akin to assuming that if hillary clinton were to be elected, some kind of renegade feminist agenda would be unleashed. whereby men would be tied up and forced to have vasectomies or forced castration, and the idea that men having consensual sex with women would certainly be seen as rape. ridiculous, right?
actualy, this election was never about baby boomers versus yungsters, blacks versus whites or men versus women until Hillary lost in Iowa, and the Clinton machine, just like the Bush machine, started segmenting the population with their sunday talkshow pundits. Thats the politics of the Clintons. Same as the Bushes.
I will not vote for a Clinton for president again. No more families in the white house...sick of it. If the dems choose Billary for their candidate they are going to lose my vote in Texas.
I'm really sorry to say it but if the above article comes to pass, and if this article is in any way indicative of how the Clinton campaign feels it needs to conduct business....
Then I, too, will be sitting this election out, just like jasoncross. Or perhaps voting for the Republican candidate, if it's John McCain. If not, then maybe a write-in is in order? Or maybe Bloomberg will sweep in at the last minute and save the day? It's all very disheartening.
i am thinking about starting a grass roots organization and calling it WriteHimIn.org an effort to motivate people like us to write Barack in, regardless of what happens, at the general election.
beta if you do that, you can count on my support and vote, for what that's worth.
WK Im with you.
I am sure there are lots of us out there that until this shenanigans held no real ill will against Hillary. I could have voted for her in the general, although I prefer Obama. now I feel like voting for Billary is just slightly better than voting for Rove himself. I am truly disgusted by the way they have behaved, and cannot and will not vote for Hillary. My only hope is that 1- this backfires on them and Obama finds a way to get the nomination (which is not a farfetched scenario) or 2-the GOP has sense enough to elect McCain.
I dread the Billary-Mittens fight it will be nasty politics as usual with three people that will stop at nothing for power for power's sake.
i like that comment on the cnn blog article... "When will people recognize that Billary Clinton is running a campaign that would make Karl Rove proud?"
i've slipped back to being depressed about politics. I'm not sure why I ever had my hopes up.
i'll take the beta pledge and vote for Obama no matter what.
To the question of whether Obama is "tough enough" to run against the Republican nominee, Michelle Obama said, "Do you know where we live? Chicago politics. Illinois politics. Mean, tough politics."
a good quote from Michelle Obama on the campaign trail...
Obama '08
In concert with what has already been said by beta, evilp, LIG and mightylittle above, I'd like to add to the Obama v. Hillary debate:
I think that we can all agree that these are still human beings we're talking about (except for Romney, who's a robot), so things like them getting choked up at a press conference shouldn't make a difference. I like Hillary, Edwards, especially Richardson, and even Ron Paul and McCain for varying reasons, but what I like about Obama is that he is NOT the establishment. In the year that I've been on his mailing list, I've gotten emails from him asking ME what my "big idea for the country" is. He's asking the people what direction they want their own country to go in, and he's not taking money from special interest groups. Hillary, on the other hand, scares me when I think about how many different groups are in her pocket....especially the health care industry, which she promises to overhaul? How can she promise health care to all Americans when she's beholden to the corporate suits who don't care about our health, but our money? Whereas, Obama isn't beholden to anyone thus far, but the people who are fighting for him.
This, in addition to many of his stances on policy, i.e. his willingness to engage with "Axis of Evil" entities, are the reasons that I am supporting him.
jafidler, what's your beef, anyway? Why won't you look at the links? Why do you have such a problem with everyone else's support of Obama? Why is being inspired by a politician for the first time in years not enough for you?
PS. To LIG, evilp, mighty, and beta.....we've almost got the four corners of the country covered here....we're like the A-Team.....except maybe the O-Team.....
OH Yeah!
OH Yeah!
I'm beginning to see schwartzineger as the only decent republican - too bad he will never be president.
a question to ask of the candidates is how they deal with admitting a mistake. most of the field (D & R) has just as many problems as the shrub in admitting they were wrong or listening to the folks that show that they are wrong.
I have yet to hear barak state that he's the smartest person in the room and that does say something about his leadership potential.
oh god, schwarzenegger started off with great promises to balance the budget and 'clean up sacramento' but has been an absolute failure for california.
we now have a larger deficit than when gray davis was is office. spending is out of control. he hasn't been tough like he promised.
schwarzenegger is horrible. and despite the 'r' by his name, he is not a republican or conservative.
that's my one hope with obama, that if he's elected he may put arnie in his cabinet (please take him away from california, please hear my pleas!).
i hope for change!
change!
and hope!
we will be a united states
i have a dream!
it won't be tough, so long as kaliforn-i-an's build in the brush hills, and refuse to have a sane forestry policy. perhaps a war with mexico would help?
cynical wednesday, thank you!
Sounds like just another populist politician. Nothing new in my book. But hey, the Obama thread has almost 3:1 as many posts as the Hillary thread and has kept at the top of the discussion lists. Guess we know how the Archinectors are going to vote.
also not new - 'i'm not a washington insider! i'm going to clean up the corruption. i'm a uniter, not a divider' (george w. bush, 2000 election rhetoric)
so lets just abolish democracy since the politicians are all the same and make bill gates the dictator for life.
steve jobs '08!
colbert / stewart '08!
stallone/norris '08!
*i'm not republican, i'm not a democrat*
i have to give you archinectors kudos for doing research on the candidates you're supporting... most of america had to be interrupted last night during the Biggest Loser to see any media coverage of the NH primary. (irony is a bitch).
a few months ago i did my own research into the democratic candidates in an attempt to find the worst of the worst of each of them and run a tally. i have to say, i was slighted towards edwards when i started- for a lot of reasons. as i went forward i was finding that he had some legal troubles with some of the hurricane katrina victims and started a fund for them in hopes of keeping most of that quiet- which has worked because i really haven't heard much of it (although that is not saying much). the laundry list is long on hillary. the worst i could find about obama was a land dispute and his chicago school economics + thatcherism- which is pretty fucking scary.
when it was all said and done i am leaning towards kucinich + ron paul. i appreciate obama's magnetism- he was here in charlottesville a month ago- and it's amazing. but i really admire ron paul and his questioning of our entire economic system, especially bernanke and fed reserve. our economy is hanging by a thread right now...
There are a number of good candidates. I'm sure that Hillary would make an okay president, probably a good one... She has experience and she's a smart woman, she has a good plan. But there has to be something said for strength of character and the charisma in a leader to produce real change... Being able to connect with people, not having special interests in the pocket.
What stands out about Obama is that he can make people believe in him... I mean, the guy has become an overnight cult hero in Germany... He's a likable guy, and has what it takes to make people, at home and abroad actually believe in America... Idealist maybe, but I'd take an a strong, intelligent, open idealist over a strong, intelligent, but angry realist any day.
I just can't see Hillary being broadly likable enough to change international opinion of America the way Obama can. I don't see Hillary having a fanbase among independants and republicans, or Germans and other foreigners for that matter... Establishment, whatever party you come from is still old party politics, drawing boundaries, and I'm not sure that it can really change anything substantially enough to change public opinion, America's political and moral standing in the global marketplace, and bring a sense of optimism and inspiration that can turn our economy around. Sorry, we just need to throw party politics out the window because it doesn't work...
Economy is driven as much by inspiration as it is by governmental policy. Economy, markets are ultimately driven by people. A spirit of optimism, a belief in change encourages social action in the population, consumer spending, and productivity of industries and workforce. Politicians don't produce change by themselves, it's people. There has to be common ground for social relations, commercial relations, public engagement, and innovation of any kind to take place... People need to take action for change to happen, they have to care about something, rather than be stuck in a state of complacency, or powerlessness.
I tend to lean Democrat, but I don't think that what America needs right now is any kind of strongly partisan president. The country needs to be brought together, not further divided by finger pointing, or party politics, or mild outrage. To be honest, I think a more middle of the road president like Obama or even McCain, less establishment focused, able to unify is more promising...
I'd love to see Obama vs. McCain in 2008. To be honest... Hillary vs. McCain, I'm not certain that Hillary would win... Republicans don't like her... I'm not sure that she can win independants and moderate Republicans, or even mild Democrats...
How true that statement is. I'm very very fearful of how both the congress/president and the federal reserve will react to the slowdown in the economy. I'm worried the academics at the reserve and the general idiocy of our elected officials have a good chance of stirring up another great depression.
Kerry has endorsed Obama. Sort of a slap in the face to Edwards...
.. and obama
Edwards is a good guy who really would love to be the vice president. Will he be the kning maker for Obama or Clinton?
edwards, from his position in the debates, seems to be leaning towards Obama...
Dont be fooled. These Clintons are the slipperyest of turds. How is that Obama just shoots up 13 points in 24 hours only to lose by 3? How is it they have in one week exhausted the word change, and reframed the debate to be a polarizing college students and minorities versus women? Im telling you these guys cant be trusted - NH moves its primary to the week before classes begin again for spring, they got Fla to move ahead of super Tues., her greatest area of support. I wouldnt doubt it if Edwards stays in long enough to spoil it for Obama.
But we could hope he throws his large crowd Obam's way.
forget about FLA, they don't have any delegates, it don't matter.
...oh the longer Edwards stays and gathers delegates, the more delegates he can pledge to Obama...i think.
Obama got another endorsement today, Governor of Arizona. I emailed the NJ governor, because even though Obama stumped for him, he endorsed Hil last April, I told him to reconsider.
link
I had not seen that evilp. That really bothers me that the Clinton camp drew up the lawsuit right after the union endorsed Obama. I thought we were past trying to prevent people from voting? Apparently not.
I'm reposting this in the Hillary thread.
Dont forget that in Iowa and NH the national Democratic comittee made sure they occured on the week before the bulk of the students returned from their christmas breaks, in time to vote.
some one somewhere at some time was wondering about where some of the really cool 'underground' sort of graphics for obama were coming from... i cant remember on which thread, or who was asking...
but here they are
http://www.gotellmama.org/
check out the posters
Yep, I'm an Obamacrat!
Is anyone pissed off at Bill Clinton for going against Barack in such a nasty way? How can an ex-president destroy a viable future for the Democratic party (even if he does not win the nomination) for the foreseeable future? The Clintons would destroy their own party if ti brings them power. It is shameful, reminds me of what Bush did to McCain in SC in '00.
If Hillary is not careful he, and his lack of control, will easily cause here the election.
Can winning SC hurt Obama so much as to allow Hillary to win?
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/01/how_clinton_will_win_the_nomin.html
Did the Clinton's really engineer this or is it too far-fetched?
that article is ridiculous.
Though i understand the point he's trying to make, i dont buy for one second that such vast swaths of the public like "white votes" and "black votes" can be lumped together.
The notion that baracks ability to mobilze the black vote will mobilze a white backlash is not only far fetched, but is largely untrue for huge areas of the country.
i haven't read the article, but i would imagine it's akin to assuming that if hillary clinton were to be elected, some kind of renegade feminist agenda would be unleashed. whereby men would be tied up and forced to have vasectomies or forced castration, and the idea that men having consensual sex with women would certainly be seen as rape. ridiculous, right?
yup. Bill is pissing me off big time.
actualy, this election was never about baby boomers versus yungsters, blacks versus whites or men versus women until Hillary lost in Iowa, and the Clinton machine, just like the Bush machine, started segmenting the population with their sunday talkshow pundits. Thats the politics of the Clintons. Same as the Bushes.
Hope this works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0ab2ntZ0Gs&feature=related
it's a video of Bill Clinton falling asleep during an MLK service.
I will not vote for a Clinton for president again. No more families in the white house...sick of it. If the dems choose Billary for their candidate they are going to lose my vote in Texas.
Every time I see Bill and Hillary I'm reminded of my husband-and-wife former bosses in Chicago, and I throw up in my mouth a little.
I'm really sorry to say it but if the above article comes to pass, and if this article is in any way indicative of how the Clinton campaign feels it needs to conduct business....
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/01/21/anti-obama-push-polling-alleged-in-south-carolina/
Then I, too, will be sitting this election out, just like jasoncross. Or perhaps voting for the Republican candidate, if it's John McCain. If not, then maybe a write-in is in order? Or maybe Bloomberg will sweep in at the last minute and save the day? It's all very disheartening.
i am thinking about starting a grass roots organization and calling it WriteHimIn.org an effort to motivate people like us to write Barack in, regardless of what happens, at the general election.
beta if you do that, you can count on my support and vote, for what that's worth.
WK Im with you.
I am sure there are lots of us out there that until this shenanigans held no real ill will against Hillary. I could have voted for her in the general, although I prefer Obama. now I feel like voting for Billary is just slightly better than voting for Rove himself. I am truly disgusted by the way they have behaved, and cannot and will not vote for Hillary. My only hope is that 1- this backfires on them and Obama finds a way to get the nomination (which is not a farfetched scenario) or 2-the GOP has sense enough to elect McCain.
I dread the Billary-Mittens fight it will be nasty politics as usual with three people that will stop at nothing for power for power's sake.
I just voted for Obama yesterday on my lunch.
On an aside i love early voting, it allows me to avoid the rush...
Yeah!
i like that comment on the cnn blog article... "When will people recognize that Billary Clinton is running a campaign that would make Karl Rove proud?"
i've slipped back to being depressed about politics. I'm not sure why I ever had my hopes up.
i'll take the beta pledge and vote for Obama no matter what.
A write in is a waste of time...take it from a two time Nader voter.
a good quote from Michelle Obama on the campaign trail...
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