larslarson: in defense of archie I don't think he stated that he felt all people >35 are that way. yes, there are many generalities being flung about on this thread, but dont' let it infuriate you as you claimed. The issue here is (globally) is about motivation, and the lack there-of of some of his employees who just happen to be under 35. Every case seems to be different. The reality is that you may be one of those individuals (such as myself - I'd like to think) that has drive, that does understand the complexity of the profession and your role (at the current time) within it. You also understand that it takes time and dedication. But maybe we are all speaking about the wrong word here......motivation? Maybe the word is dedication/commitment? Has anyone thought of this? Do younger folks entering the profession and/or school have the dedication/commitment within them to really excel?
Please don't think I am lecturing you, because I am not, I am just trying to make my point, because your situation is somewhat similar to mine (minus the published projects - kudos to you, you are appreciated).
In any event, although a generalization.....I still do believe that there are many out there (our peers) >35 that are a bunch of slackers! Not all, but quite a large amount of them.
Sorry, larslarson;
I didn't mean everyone, just a trend I was seeing. We have many really talented young people here. We also have people who just do the minimum, but we are really busy, and I need them, so they get away with it. I just feel like I bend over backwards to make their jobs great, but they still whine about things, and many don't step up to the plate when extra effort is needed. Maybe I just want to be appreciated, who knows.
I just wrote bonus checks to every employee, varying from 5% to 25% of teir salary. My partner and I wrote a personal note, as we always do, to each person, mentioning all of the things we think they do really well, and why we appreciate them. I have done this every year of owning this business, with currently 20 employees. I have only ever received two thank yous. One was a nice letter of appreciation, and the other went like this: I really appreciate the bonus. I was blown away by the amount. (It was over $5000.) My wife was really happy too. Say, she was mentioning that her brother the salesman also gets a company car.....
We provide health insurance, life insurance, disabiltiy insurance, a 10% contribution with no required match to a 401K, pay for the licensing test and licensing, pay for college credits, pay for continued learning, have in house seminars, pay for a catered lunch a month, free sodas, coffe, tea, soup, free snacks, paid vacation, paid sick days, paid personal days. We buyt he latest technology and software, we update computers every three years, we buy people extra monitors, keyboard trays, whatever. We do yearly review, yearly raises, yearly cost of living increases. We are offering ownership, at no cost, to selected employees to transfer ownership of the firm over the next ten years. (one turned us down- he did not want the responsibility to bring in work, manage project. )
When I was a youngin', I paid for my health insurance, hadd no pension or 401K, worked my butt off 60 hours a week, etc etc. Maybe I have just spoiled all of my 'children' and I deserve what I get. I just feel like the younger people expect all this stuff and still want more. Maybe I am just old, tired and grouchy! (Just like Andy Rooney...)
archie, i'd be pretty offended too if i were in your position. i think something you said is key: that you NEED these employees who aren't pulling their weight (or only pulling their own weight).
archie..
in that case i can understand your frustration...you seem to be
going above and beyond. i remember back in the day how nice
it was to just get a $50 gift certificate and a note saying 'thanks'..
it only lasted for so long..but the sentiment was appreciated and
obviously i still remember it.
i may be as equally frustrated in the opposite direction as you
due to a seeming lack of respect money-wise..but i think i'd
probably be happy in those terms if i worked for you. you seem
to be doing all the right things.
my main motivation has been 'the work'. i strive to work on
projects that are complex and interesting and that will most
likely get published...so i work for 'starchitects' or those right
on the cusp.
the main things i remember longing for in my first ten years...
site visits, mentorship, a feeling that i'm learning something...
i just wanted to get on site to figure things out and see details
firsthand...i think young architects gain tenfold by seeing what
they're drawing...so if you don't do that i'd definitely invest in
that. i also would encourage people to talk to you about details
and how things are properly done...i remember how i used to
go and talk to one of the older members of a firm i was out
about every detail i was drawing...just trying to figure out if i
was doing things right.
maybe you're right. i've been out of school for ten years..but
i remember coming out how ill-prepared i was for the realizations
of the profession...how i wanted to design everything etc.
fortuneately i had the humility to realize that i had to earn my
stripes and that i had a lot to learn.
sadly since then i'm feeling a bit beat down..i've lost some/
most of my interest in the profession in general. i'm very
tired of doing work for other people so they can get all the
credit and just want to break off and do my own thing so that i
can revitalize myself.
i guess the main thing you may want to do...if you don't already..
is to clearly explain what is expected of new hires in the interview
and then also clearly explain the rewards that come along with
meeting/exceding those expectations. other than that i hope you
don't get too discouraged since it sounds as though you're one
of the better employers in our profession.
1) When you were a youngin', I'm guessing that health insurance was affordable and obtainable, and you could count on Social Security in the absence of a pension.
2) The fact that you refer to your employees as your "children" is somewhat telling. In my office, we are often referred to as "the kids", and we refer to the partners (a husband and wife) as "mom and dad". And we don't mean it in a complementary way.
Now back to pumping CAD before I'm scolded for my lack of motivation.
I would be interested, as others have been, in your hiring practices, what do you look for in the applicants? Do you find they have more motivation initially, or more after a while? Widespread use of CAD tests probably don't detect the motivated or the clever. IMHO.
I've worked for bosses who were great at squashing initiative, reminding you that the projects are really theirs and not yours, cutting out your favorite bits of projects, not paying close attention but popping in now and then to squash something. Yelling about CAD standards rather than architectural ones. Blaming the consultants in a meeting and then instructing you to call them to ask for something. Placed in one of these situations, taking initiative is painful, getting your hopes up. Asking for responsibility can be akin to them asking to be allowed to make mistakes for themselves. Just part of working for someone else I guess.
It's like when you play tug of war with a dog, if you don't let them win enough times, they stop playing.
Or maybe they are cranking out designs on their own time for side clients, maybe they are furiously putting together a portfolio for grad school, looking for another job or maybe they have just decided that the rat race isn't worth it - You can't take it with you when you go, for example. Maybe they are devoting their time away from your office to guitar lessons or video games or posting on archinect trying to figure out what went wrong. Or maybe the ambitious ones are off working for more desirable firms. Who knows.
What motivates the younger generation? It's probably not as different as you'd think, were you in their shoes with the preceding generation in front of you as an example.
"learned helplessness is a psychological condition in which a human or animal has learned to believe that it is helpless. It thinks that it has no control over its situation and that whatever it does is futile. As a result it will stay passive when the situation is unpleasant or harmful and damaging."
As a recent graduate, I personally do not like to stay at the office late. After 5 years of late nights and crazy work hours at school, I enjoy coming to work at 9 and leaving around every day. I think that its kind of sad that because people don't want to work more than a 40 hour work week, we call them unmotivated. I like going home and relaxing and leaving work at a decent hour. Maybe I'm off base here and please tell me if I am.
I don't know if this is a factor with your interns, but I have been working at my firm for four months and have been commuting to work 2 hours each way. So for me to stay late, I would miss my connecting transportation home and not get home until two hours after leaving the office. And its a commute that many people do in the area.
Another thing that I find hard is that in school, our projects lasted for the semester, around 3 months. So working on something for longer than that, which a lot of projects take more time, is hard to get used to.
we had a dude that was seriously unmotivated at our office for awhile. several times people caught him playing video games as they snuck up behind him. once, he was told to get work from me, I gave him a few simple things to do, a few hours worth, the rest of the afternoon really and he should have had it licked. He didn't do any of it. Boss asked me why "jerry" billed 18 hours to my project and if I really had that much for him to do. I was like no way! WHAT!? that terd added about 10 notes to a page and then played video games for the other 17 hours and 53 minutes. he got fired sometime later.
archie: just a huge thank you to you for treating your "children" so well. I guess I was spoiled to be in a firm for ten years that offered similar benefits and tons of thank-yous every time I put in the extra effort. The firm was rewarded with intense loyalty from most of their employees. Of course I did leave to go start my own business - and boy oh boy do I miss that benevolent overarching paternal security now!!!
So thank you for not being one of those many. many architects who are truly terrible employers. Good job.
my first place of work was similar to how you describe yours, Archie.
There was no reason to leave it, but i did cuz i wanted more. A lot lot more than my "down-payment on a nice house" size bonuses, health insurance, and all the responsibility i could handle...in my case i wanted better design work. we were fantastic at detailing and delivering services; an incredibly fastidious japanese firm, where slipshod work was never let out the door. the company even paid for supper if we stayed late (which was most every night), and for lunch on holidays; free drinks, all the rest...was lovely.
coulda stayed forever, but instead got my masters degree and moved to london to work for a design-led, aiming for starchitecture, office. no job security beyond month to month; wages were good, but not great for london, but the work and responsibility were fantastic. learned an entire new side to the business, and for the first time in my life ENJOYED every single minute of archi-work. it was a kind of revelation for me, and i haven't turned back since. i would rather quit the biz than return to that old routine.
what motivates me is not the perks. i don't think perks is a motivation for anyone except the people who need a prod, and such folks are not the type you want to work for you anyway.
what motivates me is the work, the excitement of doing something almost entirely outside my previous experience, where it is easy to fail, and we have to be fast to keep up. that is a blast. learning new shit in this biz is an amazing motivation for me. lately that means learning real-estate financing one day, how to use a sticky building code to do something unexpected the next, and how to detail frp walls on another.
if i'm not pushing myself then the job bores me. when i first started that meant any job was enough, but after awhile cad standards and inspecting the re-bar is not new anymore...
You know, I have trouble seeing motivation out of my consultants. I swear they will do anything BUT work on this project. It's a tiny little commercial remodel of 3 rooms, new HVAC and stuff. Very little architecture so I've been done for weeks. They seem to want to drag it out till 2008. Makes me look bad as we were supposed to wrap it up mid-Dec. JUST DO IT! Consultants are all over 35.
archie - you sound just like my old boss..."when I was your age..." Well, things were different then as I'm sure all us youngsters will be saying the same thing when we are your age, managing what we believe are great firms. Sounds like you are a great employer. Forgive me for taking it with a grain of salt, as no business owner would speak poorly of their own business. Remember, no matter how great your benefits are, someone else has better.
Reading the different comments I see a recurring theme. Us archinectors are what I'd call a motivated crew. Seems we are either going off and starting our own businesses or gravitating toward the higher eschelon of design.
I'd really like to know what type of work you do. Where is your firm located? The general area of the country and urban/suburban office location. What schools are your young hires coming out of, name schools or state schools? I'm interested in the variables of input that have you so frusturated.
sure, we should see if any other local archinectors are willing too.
the snow, ah yes, coming down once again this morning, a fresh 3-4" already at my house. just looked out the window and a guy was riding his bike down the street. he couldn't stop at the end of the block and so biffed it instead. he probably had a decent landing as they haven't plowed my street since we got the 40". Am thinking of going out and digging my car out to head in to the office.
Motivation is an extraordinarily complex issue that defies simple answers ... what motivates one person easily can de-motivate another. Enlightened managers will appreciate that motivation varies by person, meaning that each person must be dealt with as an individual, not as a member of a group.
If you really want to understand motivation, a good place to poke your toe into the water is Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs
This has been a fascinating thread ... extraordinary in its richness of thought.
Im just out of school, still in jobsearch mode but Ive worked summers and whatnot. I personally couldnt give a damn about money, if I can even prettend what Im doing is creative thats usually enough for me. I'll agree the way they teach architecture is deceptive, and I do have this terrible fear Im going to spend the next 10 years bored to death. That shrill little voice of idealism keeps whispering in my ear that all these people above me have just lost the fire it takes to carry the torch and keep the standards up. In the small projects Ive been able to head, it took everything I had to trick people into doing something interesting, but once it was built those were the things they liked most. I should think as time went on I'd learn to negotiate the politics more smoothly and get better and better work built, but it seems like most of the time people get tired of fighting and just capitialate to normative mcamerica.
Feel free to point out I have no idea what Im talking about, Im sure youre right...
Nope, I think it sounds like you have a good idea of what you are talking about. I wish you the strength to keep at it. I think that's the kind of guerilla warfare that is needed.
That and a definition of "interesting" that includes helping the people who occupy buildings.
I believe that you are beginning with a few misconceptions.
There is indeed a generational difference from you consider old and young - but it seems that you confuse that with simply good employees and mediocre employees. My firm suffers from mediocre employees of every age, and motivated ones of every age as well.
When we identify one, they are out of a job, and the better ones take the workload.
For the record, I am 33, an associate at my firm, have a full-time teaching position and make 140K a year, so I have nothing to complain about.
What you identify as generational is true as well. Yet the answer to this one is the model of workplace that you run. From what you sound like, your priorities are radically out of synch from what it takes to keep a motivating workplace running.
My generation has no war to fight for (no this pseudo war that we are in at least) in the way you guys did. If you stayed home, fighting meant buying into the moral code of work - which you describe to the tee - but today the fight is internal and strangely spiritual.
I would advise a few options:
1. Hire middle management that is young and motivated, compensate them well.
2. Get a few risk-friendly designers to run the design end no matter how much trouble that causes.
3. Keep you paternalism in check - cause it seems to be getting the best of you.
4. If you can't - consider retiring and passing on the work to someone who will continue what I assume your good body of work is in a very different world.
5. Finally, there's always whining - it's the gap filler between those who own the means of production and those who don't. If you have a fair and committed structure in place you have nothing to worry about.
it seems that I have been ridiculled by suggesting appropriate financial compensataion for one's performance as a factor for motivation...this is how 90% of businesses work...what should be so different about architecture?
but I thought that this is how most firms established what each person got? Performance based bonuses?!? right??
or am i off kilter here?
I say you don't produce, or play video games (I think Liberty Bell made some comment about this), then you don't get any bonus at all!
This is also how raises work.... at least everywhere I've been at. If they don't believe you've improved your value to the firm over the course of the last year, no raise. If you've turned out to not be worth what they thought you were, no cost of living increase.
So, Archie, if you can generate this much discussion with your *own* employees, you'll get loads of information and it looks like they'll enjoy it too! I have... and I've read all this in my own time.
There's a guitar leaning on a Marshall stack
Used to sound like the sun on the horizon
Now I think we've been had
There's a young girl screaming all the way in the back
Poor kid, she never saw it coming
Now she knows she's been had
Watching the label spinning on my turntable
There's no call waiting in my headphones
And every star that shines in the back of my mind
Is just waiting for its cover to be blown
There's an eardrum bleeding, yeah it's in my head
How could I still be so in love when I know
We've been had?
Republicans and Democrats can't give you the facts
Your parents won't tell you 'til you're grown
That every star that shines in the back of your mind
Is just waiting for its cover to be blown
Flashing the badges, just like the law of averages
Nobody likes 'em where they're from
And every star that hides on the back of the bus
Is just waiting for its cover to be blown
here's a clip from the last archinect meetup, thats garpike on bass, i'm the guy in the wife beater shirt on guitar and vocals. garwondLer on drums and background vocals. you can see wonderk and liberty bell and some of the other archinect hotties out on the dance floor. props to hasselhoff for coming up with the name of THE BAND
I'm with you mdler, good compensation is they key ingredient to keeping the best employees across all businesses. Compensation and benefits are the number one reason for employee turnover.
For people like oe and all the others that claim money isn't a motivator, that chorus will only go so far. Eventually we all have to provide food and shelter for ourselves.
It disgusts me that in this profession we accept this starving artist bullshit. Oh, well I want to design so I'll work for next to nothing. You can make a decent income in architecture doing high design or suburban strip malls. You don't necessarily have to sell your soul to mediocre architecture just to make a buck. Accepting low pay, or no pay, is only perpetuating the problem!
It might be true that compensation is a majro driver of motivation in any business... But I think where this model falls short, basically the shortcoming of any microeconomic model is that it oversimplifies a complex system.
Business is about people and people relationships. Relationships with clients, with professional collaborators-- consultants, contractors, the city, and internal relationships with those who work for you and with you, colleagues and employees. Complex systems that are oversimplified and dumbed down by our modern culture of "pseudo-scientifying" every bloody thing, and then failing to understand why our model fails. Markets are complex systems, and people are complex systems.
While a good compensation structure is important, it is a key component.
Your revenue is ultimately driven by people so your work requires empathy, and understanding of people. More than any economic model, an understanding of your "customer" who is really buying what you are selling and also, who or what is driving that person that does the buying.
Same goes for employment. Dumping money on things doesn't always work. It might, might not. Its like building a professional basketball team. You can dump money hiring the "most skilled" players but that doesn't mean you will win the championship, creating team dynamics requires skill. Some other non-monetary drivers for motivation include ownership and authorship, respect, work environment, people, loyalty, comradery, work satisfaction. These are very key to the success of any business, and they are not unlrelated to your client's needs. The best business people are people people.
01/03/07 13:54
As an under 35'er I have a different take. It's not a lack of motivation, but a lack of patience.
Modern society has conditioned us to want everything right away. Everything is so instant from cell phones to ATM's to jet travel. That has filtered down into our trade. Look at craftsmanship of construction. If you are an old fogey you must've noticed the steady erosion of that art.
Same goes for in architecture. Changing from hand drafting to CAD has eroded the quality of CD's. Students are learning programs like AutoCAD and Maya, not architecture. Even the fast tracked world of architecture is too slow to stay interested.
I AGREE MOSTLY WITH THE STATEMENT ABOVE. I am re-starting this thread, even though it's from a while ago, because I think it's full of valid opinions and ideas.
Here's my perspective on it...
1. I'm 35, 36 in a few months, our generation has a lot more distractions at work and away from work. Some of us have kids, but even those of us who don't have societal perception problems, manifested mostly in dreams, that disturb our rest, minimally, disrupting our ability to concentrate at as high a level as some of the more experienced more focused senior architects. Much of this comes more naturally to them because more of them were trained in traditional firms. Life has become more crowded and complex and many of us have moved from where we originally grew up so this is part of what causes the "not fitting in" to where we live / work and causes the disruptions of the concious and subconcious.
2. Some of us have other goals, whereas architects of the previous generation were pretty much products of the self-absorbed baby-boomers' upbringing. Even those who were born at the end or just after the baby-boomer era have fallen into that "money means success" category. Many in my generation call "BS", many of us follow along like sheep. Some of us are half sheep, half rebels. I'm much more on the rebel side. My goals are to get licensed, but I'm not shitting myself worrying and rushing it. One of my important goals is motocross, I am just finishing renovating my house, and keeping the relationship fresh and on even-keel with my wife. Many of my senior associates have had at least 1 divorce. See, I don't want that, so my priorities are NOT Work First.
3. These are just a few of the points that may help provide a view into the values and motivations of our younger generation.
4. Following in Aquapura's line of thought, one of my previous bosses said "AutoCad has fucked architects". I agree with that. They put out a new product at least once a year, if we fall behind we can't read engineers' drawings and vice-versa. VERY FEW companies offer classes to update our cad skills and learn the new versions of that program. This causes our generation much more stress than older generations have had to deal with.
I hate to say this, but it may just be your firm. I've worked in a number of firms where everyone worked 60+ hours every week, and took on massive responsibility because they had to. And they were mostly under 30.
I've had conversations with my dad. Back in the day, he was happy for any job that was offered to him -- whether it was driving truck or mopping floors. But kids today just will not settle for that. Demographics have changed. Young architects want to work on cool projects, or they stop caring.
Quality diet is the fuel that keeps the motivation to have a influence on the future of the built environment and a comfortable sustaining success. oh yea and deadlines. crisis provokes action
what motivates you youngin's
larslarson: in defense of archie I don't think he stated that he felt all people >35 are that way. yes, there are many generalities being flung about on this thread, but dont' let it infuriate you as you claimed. The issue here is (globally) is about motivation, and the lack there-of of some of his employees who just happen to be under 35. Every case seems to be different. The reality is that you may be one of those individuals (such as myself - I'd like to think) that has drive, that does understand the complexity of the profession and your role (at the current time) within it. You also understand that it takes time and dedication. But maybe we are all speaking about the wrong word here......motivation? Maybe the word is dedication/commitment? Has anyone thought of this? Do younger folks entering the profession and/or school have the dedication/commitment within them to really excel?
Please don't think I am lecturing you, because I am not, I am just trying to make my point, because your situation is somewhat similar to mine (minus the published projects - kudos to you, you are appreciated).
In any event, although a generalization.....I still do believe that there are many out there (our peers) >35 that are a bunch of slackers! Not all, but quite a large amount of them.
Sorry, larslarson;
I didn't mean everyone, just a trend I was seeing. We have many really talented young people here. We also have people who just do the minimum, but we are really busy, and I need them, so they get away with it. I just feel like I bend over backwards to make their jobs great, but they still whine about things, and many don't step up to the plate when extra effort is needed. Maybe I just want to be appreciated, who knows.
I just wrote bonus checks to every employee, varying from 5% to 25% of teir salary. My partner and I wrote a personal note, as we always do, to each person, mentioning all of the things we think they do really well, and why we appreciate them. I have done this every year of owning this business, with currently 20 employees. I have only ever received two thank yous. One was a nice letter of appreciation, and the other went like this: I really appreciate the bonus. I was blown away by the amount. (It was over $5000.) My wife was really happy too. Say, she was mentioning that her brother the salesman also gets a company car.....
We provide health insurance, life insurance, disabiltiy insurance, a 10% contribution with no required match to a 401K, pay for the licensing test and licensing, pay for college credits, pay for continued learning, have in house seminars, pay for a catered lunch a month, free sodas, coffe, tea, soup, free snacks, paid vacation, paid sick days, paid personal days. We buyt he latest technology and software, we update computers every three years, we buy people extra monitors, keyboard trays, whatever. We do yearly review, yearly raises, yearly cost of living increases. We are offering ownership, at no cost, to selected employees to transfer ownership of the firm over the next ten years. (one turned us down- he did not want the responsibility to bring in work, manage project. )
When I was a youngin', I paid for my health insurance, hadd no pension or 401K, worked my butt off 60 hours a week, etc etc. Maybe I have just spoiled all of my 'children' and I deserve what I get. I just feel like the younger people expect all this stuff and still want more. Maybe I am just old, tired and grouchy! (Just like Andy Rooney...)
archie, i'd be pretty offended too if i were in your position. i think something you said is key: that you NEED these employees who aren't pulling their weight (or only pulling their own weight).
ask yourself if you really DO need them.
archie..
in that case i can understand your frustration...you seem to be
going above and beyond. i remember back in the day how nice
it was to just get a $50 gift certificate and a note saying 'thanks'..
it only lasted for so long..but the sentiment was appreciated and
obviously i still remember it.
i may be as equally frustrated in the opposite direction as you
due to a seeming lack of respect money-wise..but i think i'd
probably be happy in those terms if i worked for you. you seem
to be doing all the right things.
my main motivation has been 'the work'. i strive to work on
projects that are complex and interesting and that will most
likely get published...so i work for 'starchitects' or those right
on the cusp.
the main things i remember longing for in my first ten years...
site visits, mentorship, a feeling that i'm learning something...
i just wanted to get on site to figure things out and see details
firsthand...i think young architects gain tenfold by seeing what
they're drawing...so if you don't do that i'd definitely invest in
that. i also would encourage people to talk to you about details
and how things are properly done...i remember how i used to
go and talk to one of the older members of a firm i was out
about every detail i was drawing...just trying to figure out if i
was doing things right.
maybe you're right. i've been out of school for ten years..but
i remember coming out how ill-prepared i was for the realizations
of the profession...how i wanted to design everything etc.
fortuneately i had the humility to realize that i had to earn my
stripes and that i had a lot to learn.
sadly since then i'm feeling a bit beat down..i've lost some/
most of my interest in the profession in general. i'm very
tired of doing work for other people so they can get all the
credit and just want to break off and do my own thing so that i
can revitalize myself.
i guess the main thing you may want to do...if you don't already..
is to clearly explain what is expected of new hires in the interview
and then also clearly explain the rewards that come along with
meeting/exceding those expectations. other than that i hope you
don't get too discouraged since it sounds as though you're one
of the better employers in our profession.
Two quick comments:
1) When you were a youngin', I'm guessing that health insurance was affordable and obtainable, and you could count on Social Security in the absence of a pension.
2) The fact that you refer to your employees as your "children" is somewhat telling. In my office, we are often referred to as "the kids", and we refer to the partners (a husband and wife) as "mom and dad". And we don't mean it in a complementary way.
Now back to pumping CAD before I'm scolded for my lack of motivation.
listening to Wilco on the radio...motivating me to learn me the geetar and become a rock and roller
I would be interested, as others have been, in your hiring practices, what do you look for in the applicants? Do you find they have more motivation initially, or more after a while? Widespread use of CAD tests probably don't detect the motivated or the clever. IMHO.
I've worked for bosses who were great at squashing initiative, reminding you that the projects are really theirs and not yours, cutting out your favorite bits of projects, not paying close attention but popping in now and then to squash something. Yelling about CAD standards rather than architectural ones. Blaming the consultants in a meeting and then instructing you to call them to ask for something. Placed in one of these situations, taking initiative is painful, getting your hopes up. Asking for responsibility can be akin to them asking to be allowed to make mistakes for themselves. Just part of working for someone else I guess.
It's like when you play tug of war with a dog, if you don't let them win enough times, they stop playing.
Or maybe they are cranking out designs on their own time for side clients, maybe they are furiously putting together a portfolio for grad school, looking for another job or maybe they have just decided that the rat race isn't worth it - You can't take it with you when you go, for example. Maybe they are devoting their time away from your office to guitar lessons or video games or posting on archinect trying to figure out what went wrong. Or maybe the ambitious ones are off working for more desirable firms. Who knows.
What motivates the younger generation? It's probably not as different as you'd think, were you in their shoes with the preceding generation in front of you as an example.
:-)
"learned helplessness is a psychological condition in which a human or animal has learned to believe that it is helpless. It thinks that it has no control over its situation and that whatever it does is futile. As a result it will stay passive when the situation is unpleasant or harmful and damaging."
wow. You just described me perfectly, ochona. At least at this job...
As a recent graduate, I personally do not like to stay at the office late. After 5 years of late nights and crazy work hours at school, I enjoy coming to work at 9 and leaving around every day. I think that its kind of sad that because people don't want to work more than a 40 hour work week, we call them unmotivated. I like going home and relaxing and leaving work at a decent hour. Maybe I'm off base here and please tell me if I am.
I don't know if this is a factor with your interns, but I have been working at my firm for four months and have been commuting to work 2 hours each way. So for me to stay late, I would miss my connecting transportation home and not get home until two hours after leaving the office. And its a commute that many people do in the area.
Another thing that I find hard is that in school, our projects lasted for the semester, around 3 months. So working on something for longer than that, which a lot of projects take more time, is hard to get used to.
old fogey
he is still playing a sweet geetar
we had a dude that was seriously unmotivated at our office for awhile. several times people caught him playing video games as they snuck up behind him. once, he was told to get work from me, I gave him a few simple things to do, a few hours worth, the rest of the afternoon really and he should have had it licked. He didn't do any of it. Boss asked me why "jerry" billed 18 hours to my project and if I really had that much for him to do. I was like no way! WHAT!? that terd added about 10 notes to a page and then played video games for the other 17 hours and 53 minutes. he got fired sometime later.
he works somewhere else now.
archie: just a huge thank you to you for treating your "children" so well. I guess I was spoiled to be in a firm for ten years that offered similar benefits and tons of thank-yous every time I put in the extra effort. The firm was rewarded with intense loyalty from most of their employees. Of course I did leave to go start my own business - and boy oh boy do I miss that benevolent overarching paternal security now!!!
So thank you for not being one of those many. many architects who are truly terrible employers. Good job.
my first place of work was similar to how you describe yours, Archie.
There was no reason to leave it, but i did cuz i wanted more. A lot lot more than my "down-payment on a nice house" size bonuses, health insurance, and all the responsibility i could handle...in my case i wanted better design work. we were fantastic at detailing and delivering services; an incredibly fastidious japanese firm, where slipshod work was never let out the door. the company even paid for supper if we stayed late (which was most every night), and for lunch on holidays; free drinks, all the rest...was lovely.
coulda stayed forever, but instead got my masters degree and moved to london to work for a design-led, aiming for starchitecture, office. no job security beyond month to month; wages were good, but not great for london, but the work and responsibility were fantastic. learned an entire new side to the business, and for the first time in my life ENJOYED every single minute of archi-work. it was a kind of revelation for me, and i haven't turned back since. i would rather quit the biz than return to that old routine.
what motivates me is not the perks. i don't think perks is a motivation for anyone except the people who need a prod, and such folks are not the type you want to work for you anyway.
what motivates me is the work, the excitement of doing something almost entirely outside my previous experience, where it is easy to fail, and we have to be fast to keep up. that is a blast. learning new shit in this biz is an amazing motivation for me. lately that means learning real-estate financing one day, how to use a sticky building code to do something unexpected the next, and how to detail frp walls on another.
if i'm not pushing myself then the job bores me. when i first started that meant any job was enough, but after awhile cad standards and inspecting the re-bar is not new anymore...
or something like that.
archie: can i work for you instead?
herein the philippines, many firms (i'm not saying ALL ok, some but many) treat their interns as slaves--literally.
and us interns just accept it because we wouldn't have anywhere else to go.
crap buildings by crap architects are being built because of politics.. money problems makes it so unmotivating to be an architect.
someday tho, i shall change the world. whahahahaa.
You know, I have trouble seeing motivation out of my consultants. I swear they will do anything BUT work on this project. It's a tiny little commercial remodel of 3 rooms, new HVAC and stuff. Very little architecture so I've been done for weeks. They seem to want to drag it out till 2008. Makes me look bad as we were supposed to wrap it up mid-Dec. JUST DO IT! Consultants are all over 35.
archie - you sound just like my old boss..."when I was your age..." Well, things were different then as I'm sure all us youngsters will be saying the same thing when we are your age, managing what we believe are great firms. Sounds like you are a great employer. Forgive me for taking it with a grain of salt, as no business owner would speak poorly of their own business. Remember, no matter how great your benefits are, someone else has better.
Reading the different comments I see a recurring theme. Us archinectors are what I'd call a motivated crew. Seems we are either going off and starting our own businesses or gravitating toward the higher eschelon of design.
I'd really like to know what type of work you do. Where is your firm located? The general area of the country and urban/suburban office location. What schools are your young hires coming out of, name schools or state schools? I'm interested in the variables of input that have you so frusturated.
Strawbeary - I think it's hard to motivate any consultants/subs. I guess it comes down to reputation - it ain't their skin if the project is delayed.
We really should get that coffee one of these days! Maybe when the blizzards slow down a little?
sure, we should see if any other local archinectors are willing too.
the snow, ah yes, coming down once again this morning, a fresh 3-4" already at my house. just looked out the window and a guy was riding his bike down the street. he couldn't stop at the end of the block and so biffed it instead. he probably had a decent landing as they haven't plowed my street since we got the 40". Am thinking of going out and digging my car out to head in to the office.
Motivation is an extraordinarily complex issue that defies simple answers ... what motivates one person easily can de-motivate another. Enlightened managers will appreciate that motivation varies by person, meaning that each person must be dealt with as an individual, not as a member of a group.
If you really want to understand motivation, a good place to poke your toe into the water is Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs
This has been a fascinating thread ... extraordinary in its richness of thought.
indeed.
Im just out of school, still in jobsearch mode but Ive worked summers and whatnot. I personally couldnt give a damn about money, if I can even prettend what Im doing is creative thats usually enough for me. I'll agree the way they teach architecture is deceptive, and I do have this terrible fear Im going to spend the next 10 years bored to death. That shrill little voice of idealism keeps whispering in my ear that all these people above me have just lost the fire it takes to carry the torch and keep the standards up. In the small projects Ive been able to head, it took everything I had to trick people into doing something interesting, but once it was built those were the things they liked most. I should think as time went on I'd learn to negotiate the politics more smoothly and get better and better work built, but it seems like most of the time people get tired of fighting and just capitialate to normative mcamerica.
Feel free to point out I have no idea what Im talking about, Im sure youre right...
Nope, I think it sounds like you have a good idea of what you are talking about. I wish you the strength to keep at it. I think that's the kind of guerilla warfare that is needed.
That and a definition of "interesting" that includes helping the people who occupy buildings.
Archie,
I believe that you are beginning with a few misconceptions.
There is indeed a generational difference from you consider old and young - but it seems that you confuse that with simply good employees and mediocre employees. My firm suffers from mediocre employees of every age, and motivated ones of every age as well.
When we identify one, they are out of a job, and the better ones take the workload.
For the record, I am 33, an associate at my firm, have a full-time teaching position and make 140K a year, so I have nothing to complain about.
What you identify as generational is true as well. Yet the answer to this one is the model of workplace that you run. From what you sound like, your priorities are radically out of synch from what it takes to keep a motivating workplace running.
My generation has no war to fight for (no this pseudo war that we are in at least) in the way you guys did. If you stayed home, fighting meant buying into the moral code of work - which you describe to the tee - but today the fight is internal and strangely spiritual.
I would advise a few options:
1. Hire middle management that is young and motivated, compensate them well.
2. Get a few risk-friendly designers to run the design end no matter how much trouble that causes.
3. Keep you paternalism in check - cause it seems to be getting the best of you.
4. If you can't - consider retiring and passing on the work to someone who will continue what I assume your good body of work is in a very different world.
5. Finally, there's always whining - it's the gap filler between those who own the means of production and those who don't. If you have a fair and committed structure in place you have nothing to worry about.
Best of luck
b.
old fogey
the clown is playing a Gibson SG...but teles are cool
it seems that I have been ridiculled by suggesting appropriate financial compensataion for one's performance as a factor for motivation...this is how 90% of businesses work...what should be so different about architecture?
but I thought that this is how most firms established what each person got? Performance based bonuses?!? right??
or am i off kilter here?
I say you don't produce, or play video games (I think Liberty Bell made some comment about this), then you don't get any bonus at all!
This is also how raises work.... at least everywhere I've been at. If they don't believe you've improved your value to the firm over the course of the last year, no raise. If you've turned out to not be worth what they thought you were, no cost of living increase.
ziggy played guitar
boobies
So, Archie, if you can generate this much discussion with your *own* employees, you'll get loads of information and it looks like they'll enjoy it too! I have... and I've read all this in my own time.
There's a guitar leaning on a Marshall stack
Used to sound like the sun on the horizon
Now I think we've been had
There's a young girl screaming all the way in the back
Poor kid, she never saw it coming
Now she knows she's been had
Watching the label spinning on my turntable
There's no call waiting in my headphones
And every star that shines in the back of my mind
Is just waiting for its cover to be blown
There's an eardrum bleeding, yeah it's in my head
How could I still be so in love when I know
We've been had?
Republicans and Democrats can't give you the facts
Your parents won't tell you 'til you're grown
That every star that shines in the back of your mind
Is just waiting for its cover to be blown
Flashing the badges, just like the law of averages
Nobody likes 'em where they're from
And every star that hides on the back of the bus
Is just waiting for its cover to be blown
Ok ok. Teles are cool. Gibson SG's are cool. Please stop. Apples and oranges.
I own a Tele. And the rest are basses. BASS!
I've got your picture in my guitar case
I guess that I am just a hopeless case
But just in case
You can call me on the telephone
You know that I will always be at home
All alone
Ever since we first met
Don't you know I've been
Waiting, for you to call me up
Thinking, that you might stand me up
Hoping, that you would look me up
I know that you have things to do
And so do I, a girl like you
Is a breath of fresh air
In a smoke filled room
Like when we met two weeks ago
Lucky for me
That you had your picture with you
Or I might never have seen you again
You're a diamond in the rough
Lilies from the mud
Needle in the haystack
One in a million
And that is good enough
here's a clip from the last archinect meetup, thats garpike on bass, i'm the guy in the wife beater shirt on guitar and vocals. garwondLer on drums and background vocals. you can see wonderk and liberty bell and some of the other archinect hotties out on the dance floor. props to hasselhoff for coming up with the name of THE BAND
I'm with you mdler, good compensation is they key ingredient to keeping the best employees across all businesses. Compensation and benefits are the number one reason for employee turnover.
For people like oe and all the others that claim money isn't a motivator, that chorus will only go so far. Eventually we all have to provide food and shelter for ourselves.
It disgusts me that in this profession we accept this starving artist bullshit. Oh, well I want to design so I'll work for next to nothing. You can make a decent income in architecture doing high design or suburban strip malls. You don't necessarily have to sell your soul to mediocre architecture just to make a buck. Accepting low pay, or no pay, is only perpetuating the problem!
OldFogey
is that a dude?
that great Gretsch sound...
It might be true that compensation is a majro driver of motivation in any business... But I think where this model falls short, basically the shortcoming of any microeconomic model is that it oversimplifies a complex system.
Business is about people and people relationships. Relationships with clients, with professional collaborators-- consultants, contractors, the city, and internal relationships with those who work for you and with you, colleagues and employees. Complex systems that are oversimplified and dumbed down by our modern culture of "pseudo-scientifying" every bloody thing, and then failing to understand why our model fails. Markets are complex systems, and people are complex systems.
While a good compensation structure is important, it is a key component.
Your revenue is ultimately driven by people so your work requires empathy, and understanding of people. More than any economic model, an understanding of your "customer" who is really buying what you are selling and also, who or what is driving that person that does the buying.
Same goes for employment. Dumping money on things doesn't always work. It might, might not. Its like building a professional basketball team. You can dump money hiring the "most skilled" players but that doesn't mean you will win the championship, creating team dynamics requires skill. Some other non-monetary drivers for motivation include ownership and authorship, respect, work environment, people, loyalty, comradery, work satisfaction. These are very key to the success of any business, and they are not unlrelated to your client's needs. The best business people are people people.
sounds like you're not rigorous enough in the interview process
clean house and don't hire any more people that are from itt, or iit for that matter
quoting aquapura here-
Total Entries: 3
Total Comments: 242
01/03/07 13:54
As an under 35'er I have a different take. It's not a lack of motivation, but a lack of patience.
Modern society has conditioned us to want everything right away. Everything is so instant from cell phones to ATM's to jet travel. That has filtered down into our trade. Look at craftsmanship of construction. If you are an old fogey you must've noticed the steady erosion of that art.
Same goes for in architecture. Changing from hand drafting to CAD has eroded the quality of CD's. Students are learning programs like AutoCAD and Maya, not architecture. Even the fast tracked world of architecture is too slow to stay interested.
I AGREE MOSTLY WITH THE STATEMENT ABOVE. I am re-starting this thread, even though it's from a while ago, because I think it's full of valid opinions and ideas.
Here's my perspective on it...
1. I'm 35, 36 in a few months, our generation has a lot more distractions at work and away from work. Some of us have kids, but even those of us who don't have societal perception problems, manifested mostly in dreams, that disturb our rest, minimally, disrupting our ability to concentrate at as high a level as some of the more experienced more focused senior architects. Much of this comes more naturally to them because more of them were trained in traditional firms. Life has become more crowded and complex and many of us have moved from where we originally grew up so this is part of what causes the "not fitting in" to where we live / work and causes the disruptions of the concious and subconcious.
2. Some of us have other goals, whereas architects of the previous generation were pretty much products of the self-absorbed baby-boomers' upbringing. Even those who were born at the end or just after the baby-boomer era have fallen into that "money means success" category. Many in my generation call "BS", many of us follow along like sheep. Some of us are half sheep, half rebels. I'm much more on the rebel side. My goals are to get licensed, but I'm not shitting myself worrying and rushing it. One of my important goals is motocross, I am just finishing renovating my house, and keeping the relationship fresh and on even-keel with my wife. Many of my senior associates have had at least 1 divorce. See, I don't want that, so my priorities are NOT Work First.
3. These are just a few of the points that may help provide a view into the values and motivations of our younger generation.
4. Following in Aquapura's line of thought, one of my previous bosses said "AutoCad has fucked architects". I agree with that. They put out a new product at least once a year, if we fall behind we can't read engineers' drawings and vice-versa. VERY FEW companies offer classes to update our cad skills and learn the new versions of that program. This causes our generation much more stress than older generations have had to deal with.
i think it's unfair to label our entire generation "unmotivated"....i for one am 25, and motivated merely by the sight of cheese....primarily gouda
Archie,
I hate to say this, but it may just be your firm. I've worked in a number of firms where everyone worked 60+ hours every week, and took on massive responsibility because they had to. And they were mostly under 30.
I've had conversations with my dad. Back in the day, he was happy for any job that was offered to him -- whether it was driving truck or mopping floors. But kids today just will not settle for that. Demographics have changed. Young architects want to work on cool projects, or they stop caring.
I just saw vado's post for the first time!
Classic!!!
Vado, Garpike, If that's LB dancing in the vest she's even more of a badass than I thought!
you guys aren't bad either!!!
Quality diet is the fuel that keeps the motivation to have a influence on the future of the built environment and a comfortable sustaining success. oh yea and deadlines. crisis provokes action
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