Med - I'm 28 and have been in and out of work, to some extent, over the past couple of years, so I can relate to your angst with the industry. I can also relate to your frustration, especially your resentment towards older generations who continue to occupy the positions, enterprising young professionals would one day fill...but simply are not.
But I can't help but want to remind you that architecture is a design based profession. Any field relating to design is dangerous to be in. You will get crushed more than you will succeed. It's that simple.
A long time ago, I came to the conclusion that I would determine my success, not by paychecks or tenure but by happiness. Sounds lame, I know, but for me, my happiness stems from my commitment to my ideas, passion for innovation and willingness to take risks.
I started off doing bicycle planning in San Francisco. Today, I work in Iraq writing proposals for large construction projects. It's a dangerous and controversial job and I love it. Before I came here, I left a great job to work for free in Indonesia doing master planning and slum upgrading. I think my next move will be to Rio or New York. Who knows. Maybe I'll move in with my parents in Pittsburgh and begin designing the most ridiculous Park[ing] Day space EVER!
What a life right? I have a beautiful 26 year old girl friend (to be fiance) waiting for me to come home, which I won't be for 12 months. Sacrifice.
I've left design to be a glorified editor and admin person. Sacrifice.
I quit my job in San Francisco to work for free just to get experience I wasn't going to get in the states because the job market was too competitive.
We all deal with the BS and we all make sacrifices. You can spend your time being angry about it or you can kick some ass and do something about it.
curtkram - i disagree to some extent. business has always been about who you know as much as it's been about technical ability. yes, we have (in the u.s.) one of the more meritocratic systems in place. and what' s great is that, although not everyone will 'succeed', anyone can become a success.
the rest of your assertion - about common employees being traded like minor league ball players.... really? i tend to believe the more obvious answers: there's less work; we tend to hire people we 'like' and know something about over a pure unknown quality; and luck plays a greater role (being in the right place at the right time) than anyone is comfortable admitting.
Spackle - I cannot afford to do what you're doing.
There is no "working for free bullshit" - not if I can help it. You mean to tell me you're in Iraq (a dangerous clusterfuck of a situation our wise elders created) and you're not getting paid while you are putting yourself in harms way??? I can't even put int into perspective how crazy that is....
Again, you can afford to live in your fairytale world and think that you are "kicking ass" but an overwhelming majority of us are not independently wealthy and have mortgages and student loans to pay for. How are we supposed to live if we buy into slavery like you apparently are doing?
Ha - I get paid for my work in Iraq. Quite well, actually. I didn't get paid in Indonesia. Just to clarify. But I wouldn't be where I am with the opportunities I have without going to Indonesia.
To each his own.
Far from slavery. You're misinformed about the reality of the world to say the least. Un-glue yourself from your own thoughts and the mainstream media and I bet you will find yourself better off.
Congratulations on being older than me. You've succeed in making yourself look so pathetic your jrs are giving you advice. Furthermore, would it be inappropriate for me to classify you as the same old dinosaurs, gobbling up jobs, that you keep complaining about?
I'm a community college transfer - state school graduate. I also worked through school and didn't graduate with a ounce of debt, unlike a lot of people who preferred a name brand education.
My fairytale is just that to you but a reality me.
Uh Spakle - I live in a world of reality and that reality is that things cost money - ALOT of money. Architecture is not free - I have no idea why people have a hard time understanding this. I take advice from younger people than myself - but nothing in the form of "you should work for free." It's insane.
You can call me whatever you want to and make whatever assumptions you want to make about me. I also got my training at a state school and got in-state tuition because I know it doesn't make a goddamn bit of difference. I am gainfully employed at a very good firm that I really like (mich better than any of the previous ones). I'm not selfish and speak on behalf of the many in my generation who haven't been as fortunate as you or I. They are the ones I feel for because they are suffering from the idiotic decisions that another generation made. You're in Iraq - so you of all people should know about it (at least I would hope so).
What is the point of agonizing over the fact that you can’t change? It is the very well known fact that the career is dead . So, deal with it. Wake Up people! For those who is about to choose architect as career, don’t try to overkill yourself with tons of student loan. The best freedom you can enjoy in life is financial freedom. Don’t turn yourself into a slave.
If you want to work for free, go for it! I did it too. The moment you think “it is enough”, then quit working free. If want to get paid more go to different firm. Grass may be greener, and may be not. Who knows? Can’t find a job on architecture? Try GIS , Urban Planning, 3D studios, Typography & Graphic Design. These are growing fields and these fields are not only very rewording financially but also very beneficial to architecture career. So stop sticking your head in sand. If you dedicated yourself to architecture education, you can make very good things out of it.
End of the day, it is all about what you think. It is not about what other people think. Even if you’re not working for a firm, just keep working on independent research projects. If you know how to search information and know how to use essential computer programs, you can still do architecture related works. You might even start writing a book named Delirious Career!
If you desperately need to find a job, use desperate measures. You may reeducate yourself by going to technical schools. I would also like to share my mom life experience. When my mom graduated with Economic Statistic, she can’t find a job in her field. So, she took accounting class to do some accounting jobs before she can find her career. Sometime you need to retool yourself such as learning Solidworks, BIM programs. Oh, yes I have been working on and off in the architecture field. But my main income is from GIS works which paid me very well. I still think myself as a designer.
Architecture career is like addictive substance. We know that it is sucks, but we still foolishly chasing it. So….do what you want to do, and who give a $**t about what people think or what people around you think. Enjoy the ride, and end of the day, we only have one life. Most of architects seem dead even before they are. So stop agonizing. It is not worth it. Instead of sticking yourself to computer screen, go outside and run 5 miles a day will make you feel better physically and mentally.
I’ll stop my rant here and I love architects. So, please don’t torture yourselves.
You've succeed in making yourself look so pathetic your jrs are giving you advice.
First of all, taking advice from someone, whether they're your junior or not, is not pathetic. I would even go further to suggest that listening to other people's perspective, whether they are junior or not, is one of the key differences between being intelligent and an idiot.
Second, it seems to me that a) your advice was unsolicited and b) med. did not actually heed your advice. So you for you to suggest that you are the 'junior' in that statement (which is how I read it, maybe your intent was different) is plainly false.
I think this illustrates another thing we could all work on fixing in our profession. It appears to me that your ego has gotten so big that it has actually clouded your ability to see what's happening in real life and instead you live in a fantasy bubble that revolves around supporting your idea of how important you are. I'm not sure I know where we should start, but introspection might be a good place if not therapy.
med - i apologize for being a bit insulting. no one can comprehend your problems and I don't doubt the solution will present itself on this hurr forum. sometimes I'm motivated by optimism, i guess i was sticking with what i know and sharing my outlook with you. Working in Iraq was never a dream of mine, far from it, but I'm not Peter Pan and it was something unique and different -- plus the sweet travel perks and pay made the decision easy for me. This is an architecture forum so I will stick to design and leave the political and social rhetoric to their respective sites.
Anyway, architecture is compelling. Millions of people continue to chase the purple dragon that is architecture like the swarms of meth heads in my hometown, looking for their next fix.
Unlike meth, architecture is healthy and pretty interesting. I think the problem with the industry today is that too many companies and individuals have become too big; essentially factories. The ramifications are staggering. The very nature of architecture has been lost to an extent.
I saw on architect the other day, a post about designing a city in 4 days. It was a urban design studio at U Michigan. I mean, talk about teaching kids how disposable architecture and the public realm is.
When you start diagnosing the reality of the situation, at least for me, it becomes dizzying and extremely depressing.
I am just a blip -- trying to have a good time and make ends meat doing design related things. It's working at so far. I guess I'm too small to fail.
My response to Med was influenced by his several diatribes regarding the profession, which opened the door to any number of remarks..mmkay? And the age comment...well that too was a response to our friend Med making note that he was older than me. So kinda a relevant statement.
I'd also like to thank you for your hypocritical unsolicited advice, as you have cleverly rendered yourself an A-hole by doing the exact same thing...except by executing the old "do as I say, not as I do" thing. Kudos.
Finally, we could all use some therapy. But don't diagnose me as an ego maniac when I more of an optimistic person. It gets confusing for Negative Nancys like yourself.
You've succeed in making yourself look so pathetic your jrs are giving you advice.
I don't understand the 'Russle' part. My comment was specific to that quote. I understand the relevance to age. I've made a few 'baby boomer' comments which are also relevant to age. I still think it's wrong to claim that a person is 'pathetic' for receiving advice from younger people (or older for that matter. I have a few disagreements with a few people here, but I think I've always taken their comments honestly and sincerely). I also accept that my previous statement, as well as nearly every statement I've ever made on the internet, was unsolicited. I feel your comment is different in that you are attacking someone for receiving your unsolicited advice. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite, though maybe I am.
I will own up to A-Hole, but I think douche bag is a bit inappropriate. Isn't that a feminine hygiene product?
All right gentlemen, looks like we are all chilled out. Hey Spackle, I for one would like to know whats really going on in Baghdad, what is it like living there day to day?
Ok this is really scaring me, is the professions current state this bad globally? or is it just US?
I am a NZ high school student and i plan to do architecture but it looks like the professions full of negatives.. it seems even if u have the passion, it will not get you very far,,,,,, Should i make a more realistic career choice? please help me out
I think almost all professions are bad right now, everywhere - but especially in the US and some other countries that are still working through some overleveraging issues (England?). I wouldn't look at current conditions and assume that they will be constant across your career - for anything.
The funny part is that from bashing the baby boomers who started a bunch of stupid wars, we are now listening from a dude based in Iraq, about how awesome this profession is. C'mon people, it is time for us to think of architecture as a real profession and business, rather than an obscure pro-bono art, on its way out. This is the only way we can survive the harsh realities of the business environment.
Oh, and the whole "architecture does not pay well, if at all" rant is created by firm owners who want to make huge wads of profit.
Case in point - a local firm here whose employees get paid an average of 15$ an hour, work about 80 hours a week without overtime, and the boss drives a Maserati or Porsche based on what he feels like that day.
God, sameold. That example is totally a case to me of why academia has failed this profession. The schools lately have excelled at teaching youngsters that they should feel grateful to get an unpaid internship, but have failed at showing the greater world how our skills are valuable.
I've decided I'm not teaching anymore, at least not in an architecture school, because I just can't be complicit in this any longer. Higher education is broken, not only in architecture, but especially so there, and the constant clamor on this website for people to review a portfolio or advise on which of 25 schools to apply to makes me sick.
I agree with how broken higher education has become. Tuition goes up and quality goes down.
I also think people expect too much out of their education. At the end of the day, it's not the school that defines you or makes or breaks your career. It's a bit of luck, timing, work ethic/passion and talent. Every person I know who's wanted to take things to another level in their professionally, has succeeded in doing so. Sustaining is another thing.
I've also noticed so many people running towards government jobs and looking to blend with some mega AEC company. A jobs a job but I never wanted that for myself. Bureaucratic corps are lame.
conventional practioners like to point their fingers at academia while make over-arching generalizations for what they perceive as a threat to the way they do things.
It is also hard to respect those who subscribe to idea of an oil-based economy. So building army barracks in Iraq and working for free both sound like good examples of selling out.
conventional [educators]like to point their fingers at [practitioners] while make over-arching generalizations for what they perceive as a threat to the way they do things.
Yeah, what babs said. I've been playing on both sides the last four years and while I never feel guilty about the professional work I do, I can't say the opposite. In fact, I feel no threat from academia (seriously? How could I?); I feel a threat from a public that has no idea what architects do and what we can bring to any project besides pretty drawings, e.g this thread.
Also, fotini, Im asking honestly: how old are you? I'm old. I've seen a lot of changes in the way architecture is taught and in the way the practices run these last 25 years.
there is no such thing as conventional educators, because they are always changing. At faster speeds than practitioners.
Really? This has been your real-life experience? I know that whatever background you have is going to be different than mine, but I actually attended (4) different universities and by and large the professors are just as lazy and resistant to any change as their private sector colleagues. I took an AutoCAD class in around 1997ish where I spent class time learning FORTRAN 77. Do you want to know what the '77' means? For the instructor, that was normal. He had been using that software for 20 years. For me, even with hindsight, it seems that had been obsolete for a looong time. I had an instructor in grad school that had us build a physical model of our design at something like 1/4" scale so that we could take a webcam in our hand through the front door and make a video walk-through of the model. I had a laptop with 3dmax on it at the time. More of the same for the rest of my education, with only an occasional exception. As a general rule, very few professors bothered to educate themselves on AutoCAD, FormZ, 3d max, photoshop, or really any other tool they didn't learn when they were in school 10 or 20 years previous.
Fotini - For the record, I subscribe to one thing and one thing only and that's Netflix.
"...it hard to respect people who subscribe to an oil-based economy." And whom are you referring to, the .0001% of workers from first world countries who occupy jobs in oil producing countries or the 99% of local nationals and other third world workers who come to these places to make a better life for themselves and their families? Shame on those sellouts!
Not sure if you've read anything besides a starbucks menu lately, but the war is OVER! No army barracks here.
And how is "working" for free selling out?! LOL. I completed a six month fellowship. I didn't get paid, but I did get to travel for free and all my expenses paid. Plus the experience of working throughout SE Asia was invaluable...not to mention fun.
It's just so typical for design types to think that they are too good for something. You spend so much time being picky and thinking you're better than everyone else, that life passes you buy and you find yourself blogging about how disappointed you are with the industry.
Spackle, im kind of curious about what your role in Iraq is, I immediately think about something that relates to the American presence in the middle east, which is primarily a military one even if the war is over. So if you have 'a job'.... is it for the army?
If you're now posing as a humanitarian, than it seems like you are more of dreamer, than someone who just wants a job, in that regard its senseless to bash design. Because design has much to offer humanitarian endeavors, a job that just pays the bills does not accomplish that.
not bashing design. I'm simply saying a good number of people in design tend to put themselves on a pedestal. Nothing groundbreaking with that comment. I think professors are a perfect example of this and a big reason why young professionals struggle their first few years. They simply expect too much. Instantaneous success.
I also think employers need to do a better job of coaching and managing staff. Grooming them, investing in them. I've been in places, like the one I'm in now, where staff is basically setup to fail. Little to no support, poor communication among team members and as a result, people end up looking after themselves. That's no way to run a business and it's scary when an industry has demonstrated its willingness to go in that direction.
Any experience is good experience. As I mentioned before, I am not working directly on design projects but more in a project and business management role. While I miss doing plans, designs and renderings and all that stuff, being on the other side has been a great learning experience.
I've never liked the saying ' you only become an good architect when you're 50'. That's rubbish. Aspiring architects and designers just need to be more willing to take a chances with jobs that maybe slightly out of the box or off the beaten path. I think the answer to being a good architect or designer is exposure,variety and practice. For some that might be 30, for others, maybe it's 50.
Architecture school gives you so many tools and businesses across the board are looking to integrate design into their business models. It's a perfect opportunity for creative minds to get to work. You can always find your way back to architecture if you're that passionate about it.
I said I would leave political rhetoric from this discussion but as people have asked about Iraq, I will say a few quick things.
Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines...Those all fall under Department of Defense (DOD). The US DOD has no bases in Iraq...zero. They are completely gone. The Department of State (DOS) is still around but I guess they are overseeing reconstruction and other things.
Despite what is shown on the TV, this place is turning around. The number of Europeans, Americans, Chinese, Koreans, Turkish... walking around, eating at outdoor cafes is incredible given what was going on just a few months ago. Obviously its still dangerous but for the most part, things are very good.
I work and live with Iraqis . We talk at length about they want for their future and its more industries than oil, security and logistics. They want everything everyone else has and they dont care if its local, western, eastern or from another planet..they just want more opportunities. Cities like Basra and Erbil, they want to be like Dubai or Istanbul and that's exactly what's happening. It's exciting.
Everyone was waiting to see what Iraq would be after the US left. The dust is settling and things are looking good. There are so many companies moving in, setting up partnerships with schools and training programs for unskilled workers.
If Iraq could get Iran off of their back and if somehow the Shites and Sunnis could leave each other alone, this would be such a incredible place. It's Mesopotamia. The beginning of civilization. I can't think of a more meaningful and interesting place to be.
I had no idea so many peple would see my posting. On other venues, my comments about the architecture profession's ills have been supressed.
I seem to have exposed a generational conflict in the profession. Med really dislikes Boomers. I hope that this bright younger fellow does not think all Boomers are evil and self - centered. I had my share of mistreatment from my architecture elders during the 1980's. No mentoring - you were given menial tasks that taught you nothing, told to shut up if you had an opinion on design, told that your interest in historical designs was useless, and laid off quickly when things were slow. The American Architecture profession must stop emulating the evil tradition of college fraternities' hazing younger members.
I want to thank Geezertect for vindicating the blue collar direction my work has taken. Having rehabbed 3 vintage houses, I learned enough manual historic preservation skills to adapt from being a CAD designer into a traditional craftsperson. I can make a modest living with my understanding of old house construction, plaster, finishes, etc. and am able to perform a useful function in my own historic neighborhood. I sometimes find myself taking the place of older local craftsmen who have retired or passed away, sometimes re-using their vintage tools that I buy or find abandoned.
My own family is over 300 years old, and the traditions of our generations were always respected. As in all families, things were never perfect. But there was no overt animosity between the elder generations and their successors, and there was a positive sense of adaptation and continuity. Hopefully it is not too naieve to expect the American Architecture profession to do the same.
I can understand how you feel med. I can not say that I am completely free of the same prejudice. It would probably be much harder for me if I had the same experiences you have had.
However, blaming others, even when they may be at fault, will only distract you from your own self-deceit. If it is fair, I would ask you to make the association between the judgements you make about the boomers and the judgments that many of them have made about Islam and the Middle East. Do you honestly think anything good can come out of broadcasting that a generation, religion or culture might be mostly greedy, or violent, ignorant etc?
Do not forget that this, the internet, is not possible without their hard work, and don't forget affordable personal computing as well! Some might say that that alone makes up for all of the thoughtless buildings many of them helped create.
People who act out of greed or selfish ignorance are very easy to comprehend because they are very predictable. The Formal aspects of the Profession of Architecture gives many uninspired people a safe haven from the struggles of walking the difficult path. If you let your highest level of intuition guide you, you will see how trite of an obstacle those formal organizations are. You do not have to remind others of their failures or their responsibilities. If you lead by example they will remind themselves, and that is much more persuasive.
Been away for a while from this thread, I want to tackle some questions comments.
How to find Retired Architects? I just ask around, for example with firms figure out where all the acronyms are, some are retired some are teaching. I have found many AIA fellows are especially generous with their time their names are online. This is a good point to address education, you have to do some digging to get a good one, and if you just follow the herd you will have an ordinary education and a ranked school. Rural Studio is the best example of digging around looking for gems, other schools are picking up on their example. Architecture is a vocation, an art, and a profession. Those three things are sometimes in conflict in the academic world. You can build for yourself a solid education almost anywhere you go, but you have to work at it and work hard.
I know architects can be many things but right now I am finding the role of architect as a collector of needs and resources most interesting. The community garden project has had a surprising outpouring of help and support and has taught me a lot. We also have been very busy and so I am not getting paid and that is a hardship but I have this notion that if I can affect some kind of change for this community then some kind of positive change may come my way. Finding jobs is hard but having a posse out looking on your behalf helps a lot. How do you recruit your personal professional development posse?
1 doing good deeds for others
2 Respecting yourself and your profession (this may need some more explaining)
3 seeking out wisdom from those who have it
4 following through on your commitments
I think this is what I have been doing lately and it has yielded some leads some small design work and I can see a path out of this dark space I am in my career. It took a lot for me to recognize that I can get a lot farther with help than I could on my own.
Respecting yourself and your profession
I think there are a lot of gray areas out there but in my view doing commercial work for free for businesses or individuals who are able to pay you is not good. Working for a firm that pads the books, cheats or blatantly misleads clients is also bad. Working to improve a community, taking on a project or a cause that otherwise would not be done is good even if you are not paid. The project I am working on is not taking away employment from anyone. it is building something in a community whose physical environment has had a long and continuous history of neglect and failure, Architectural failures such as buildings falling apart and other social failures. A little change, an image of the possibility for a better future, one that the residents might have some control over, is possibly the best outlet for my training available to me right now. We should ask ourselves are we using our skills for the most good. How much time can we afford to give? I was surprised at some of the barriers the community group had before them, these are problems that we as design professionals know how to overcome. Find a problem that a group is facing and start designing. If you can help find a way to get past the problem you have done the community, the profession and yourself a favor.
You are a very thoughtful person. Pointing out the necessity of proper community behavior from architects is very important, even in the current poor business environment.
Both good and bad architect'sbehaviors from have been memorable;
The bad:
One architect I worked for deliberately covered an art deco school with gross pebble-crete cladding. I was caught showing an unrelated but beautiful restoration project photo on a design magazine to another person. Out of nowhere this owner / architect jumped on my case "no one cares about your design opinions! This office was located in the largely hispanic Houston Heights, and fearing a break-in by local ethnic residents, this guy kept a loaded shotgun next to his desk. I wondered if I might be shot if I came into the office after hours.
At an interview for a onother firm, the owner/architect's first remark when I walked in was "Thank God you're not an ** n-word or an Arab! He then told me my portfolio looked "thrown together" and my experience was lousy. He then wanted to know when I could start. I left.
The good:
Elliott Rothschild AIA (1943-2007). This architect welcomed me, then a young stranger, to Philadelphia in the 1980's. He had his own firm then, but lost it in the 1991 recession. Even as a "fallen star" he kept working and gave of himself to a generation of younger architects. We worked together years later on housing and restoration projects. At a critical project deadline, two family members, my father and brother in law both died on the same day. Elliot was there for me. With his help, our team finished the work, and I Ieft for my home city.
In 2007 Elliott was stricken with lymphatic cancer. I had the privilege of seeing him off on his last work day at another firm. Though frail from chemotherapy, this brave and unselfish man only asked about how I was, and how my projects were going.
The architecture profession has a striking capacity for both good and evil. Even if it means a life of less money, and not calling the shots in a firm, I want to be like Elliott. I think that the good we do will outlive us.
It IS a Bad Profession. But, it's a pretty fun HOBBY. I just had a son last year, I won't encourage him to be an Architect for a living. I'm getting him on a track to be an NFL Punter, or something which requires little work, yet yields high pay. Once he achieves that, he'll find that there is more to life than trying to keep a job that kills your soul.
Anyway, I'll keep doing Architecture, but only when it gives me satisfaction. I will suggest this to all of the rest of you: If you're looking over your shoulder, losing sleep over it, losing your home because there's no work, etc, then just leave it as a job. It really is not worth it. Just disappear - Go find something else to pay the bills, then go design, & hopefully, build your design for yourself. That's how to make Architecture a Great endeavour.
sick of architecture being called a bad profession
Med - I'm 28 and have been in and out of work, to some extent, over the past couple of years, so I can relate to your angst with the industry. I can also relate to your frustration, especially your resentment towards older generations who continue to occupy the positions, enterprising young professionals would one day fill...but simply are not.
But I can't help but want to remind you that architecture is a design based profession. Any field relating to design is dangerous to be in. You will get crushed more than you will succeed. It's that simple.
A long time ago, I came to the conclusion that I would determine my success, not by paychecks or tenure but by happiness. Sounds lame, I know, but for me, my happiness stems from my commitment to my ideas, passion for innovation and willingness to take risks.
I started off doing bicycle planning in San Francisco. Today, I work in Iraq writing proposals for large construction projects. It's a dangerous and controversial job and I love it. Before I came here, I left a great job to work for free in Indonesia doing master planning and slum upgrading. I think my next move will be to Rio or New York. Who knows. Maybe I'll move in with my parents in Pittsburgh and begin designing the most ridiculous Park[ing] Day space EVER!
What a life right? I have a beautiful 26 year old girl friend (to be fiance) waiting for me to come home, which I won't be for 12 months. Sacrifice.
I've left design to be a glorified editor and admin person. Sacrifice.
I quit my job in San Francisco to work for free just to get experience I wasn't going to get in the states because the job market was too competitive.
We all deal with the BS and we all make sacrifices. You can spend your time being angry about it or you can kick some ass and do something about it.
I dare you to be unconventional.
curtkram - i disagree to some extent. business has always been about who you know as much as it's been about technical ability. yes, we have (in the u.s.) one of the more meritocratic systems in place. and what' s great is that, although not everyone will 'succeed', anyone can become a success.
the rest of your assertion - about common employees being traded like minor league ball players.... really? i tend to believe the more obvious answers: there's less work; we tend to hire people we 'like' and know something about over a pure unknown quality; and luck plays a greater role (being in the right place at the right time) than anyone is comfortable admitting.
Spackle - I cannot afford to do what you're doing.
There is no "working for free bullshit" - not if I can help it. You mean to tell me you're in Iraq (a dangerous clusterfuck of a situation our wise elders created) and you're not getting paid while you are putting yourself in harms way??? I can't even put int into perspective how crazy that is....
Again, you can afford to live in your fairytale world and think that you are "kicking ass" but an overwhelming majority of us are not independently wealthy and have mortgages and student loans to pay for. How are we supposed to live if we buy into slavery like you apparently are doing?
I am also older than you.
Ha - I get paid for my work in Iraq. Quite well, actually. I didn't get paid in Indonesia. Just to clarify. But I wouldn't be where I am with the opportunities I have without going to Indonesia.
To each his own.
Far from slavery. You're misinformed about the reality of the world to say the least. Un-glue yourself from your own thoughts and the mainstream media and I bet you will find yourself better off.
Congratulations on being older than me. You've succeed in making yourself look so pathetic your jrs are giving you advice. Furthermore, would it be inappropriate for me to classify you as the same old dinosaurs, gobbling up jobs, that you keep complaining about?
I'm a community college transfer - state school graduate. I also worked through school and didn't graduate with a ounce of debt, unlike a lot of people who preferred a name brand education.
My fairytale is just that to you but a reality me.
Uh Spakle - I live in a world of reality and that reality is that things cost money - ALOT of money. Architecture is not free - I have no idea why people have a hard time understanding this. I take advice from younger people than myself - but nothing in the form of "you should work for free." It's insane.
You can call me whatever you want to and make whatever assumptions you want to make about me. I also got my training at a state school and got in-state tuition because I know it doesn't make a goddamn bit of difference. I am gainfully employed at a very good firm that I really like (mich better than any of the previous ones). I'm not selfish and speak on behalf of the many in my generation who haven't been as fortunate as you or I. They are the ones I feel for because they are suffering from the idiotic decisions that another generation made. You're in Iraq - so you of all people should know about it (at least I would hope so).
"You're misinformed about the reality of the world to say the least"
Right - and I want you to say I'm misinformed about Iraq too. That would really be far too comical.
What is the point of agonizing over the fact that you can’t change? It is the very well known fact that the career is dead . So, deal with it. Wake Up people! For those who is about to choose architect as career, don’t try to overkill yourself with tons of student loan. The best freedom you can enjoy in life is financial freedom. Don’t turn yourself into a slave.
If you want to work for free, go for it! I did it too. The moment you think “it is enough”, then quit working free. If want to get paid more go to different firm. Grass may be greener, and may be not. Who knows? Can’t find a job on architecture? Try GIS , Urban Planning, 3D studios, Typography & Graphic Design. These are growing fields and these fields are not only very rewording financially but also very beneficial to architecture career. So stop sticking your head in sand. If you dedicated yourself to architecture education, you can make very good things out of it.
End of the day, it is all about what you think. It is not about what other people think. Even if you’re not working for a firm, just keep working on independent research projects. If you know how to search information and know how to use essential computer programs, you can still do architecture related works. You might even start writing a book named Delirious Career!
If you desperately need to find a job, use desperate measures. You may reeducate yourself by going to technical schools. I would also like to share my mom life experience. When my mom graduated with Economic Statistic, she can’t find a job in her field. So, she took accounting class to do some accounting jobs before she can find her career. Sometime you need to retool yourself such as learning Solidworks, BIM programs. Oh, yes I have been working on and off in the architecture field. But my main income is from GIS works which paid me very well. I still think myself as a designer.
Architecture career is like addictive substance. We know that it is sucks, but we still foolishly chasing it. So….do what you want to do, and who give a $**t about what people think or what people around you think. Enjoy the ride, and end of the day, we only have one life. Most of architects seem dead even before they are. So stop agonizing. It is not worth it. Instead of sticking yourself to computer screen, go outside and run 5 miles a day will make you feel better physically and mentally.
I’ll stop my rant here and I love architects. So, please don’t torture yourselves.
From Spackle:
You've succeed in making yourself look so pathetic your jrs are giving you advice.
First of all, taking advice from someone, whether they're your junior or not, is not pathetic. I would even go further to suggest that listening to other people's perspective, whether they are junior or not, is one of the key differences between being intelligent and an idiot.
Second, it seems to me that a) your advice was unsolicited and b) med. did not actually heed your advice. So you for you to suggest that you are the 'junior' in that statement (which is how I read it, maybe your intent was different) is plainly false.
I think this illustrates another thing we could all work on fixing in our profession. It appears to me that your ego has gotten so big that it has actually clouded your ability to see what's happening in real life and instead you live in a fantasy bubble that revolves around supporting your idea of how important you are. I'm not sure I know where we should start, but introspection might be a good place if not therapy.
med - i apologize for being a bit insulting. no one can comprehend your problems and I don't doubt the solution will present itself on this hurr forum. sometimes I'm motivated by optimism, i guess i was sticking with what i know and sharing my outlook with you. Working in Iraq was never a dream of mine, far from it, but I'm not Peter Pan and it was something unique and different -- plus the sweet travel perks and pay made the decision easy for me. This is an architecture forum so I will stick to design and leave the political and social rhetoric to their respective sites.
Anyway, architecture is compelling. Millions of people continue to chase the purple dragon that is architecture like the swarms of meth heads in my hometown, looking for their next fix.
Unlike meth, architecture is healthy and pretty interesting. I think the problem with the industry today is that too many companies and individuals have become too big; essentially factories. The ramifications are staggering. The very nature of architecture has been lost to an extent.
I saw on architect the other day, a post about designing a city in 4 days. It was a urban design studio at U Michigan. I mean, talk about teaching kids how disposable architecture and the public realm is.
When you start diagnosing the reality of the situation, at least for me, it becomes dizzying and extremely depressing.
I am just a blip -- trying to have a good time and make ends meat doing design related things. It's working at so far. I guess I'm too small to fail.
Curtkram, I think you are illustrating an interesting point about being "wrong". I watched a good TED video awhile back by Kathryn Schulz:
http://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong.html
CurtRussle -
My response to Med was influenced by his several diatribes regarding the profession, which opened the door to any number of remarks..mmkay? And the age comment...well that too was a response to our friend Med making note that he was older than me. So kinda a relevant statement.
I'd also like to thank you for your hypocritical unsolicited advice, as you have cleverly rendered yourself an A-hole by doing the exact same thing...except by executing the old "do as I say, not as I do" thing. Kudos.
Finally, we could all use some therapy. But don't diagnose me as an ego maniac when I more of an optimistic person. It gets confusing for Negative Nancys like yourself.
Thanks for playing, you douche bag.
You've succeed in making yourself look so pathetic your jrs are giving you advice.
I don't understand the 'Russle' part. My comment was specific to that quote. I understand the relevance to age. I've made a few 'baby boomer' comments which are also relevant to age. I still think it's wrong to claim that a person is 'pathetic' for receiving advice from younger people (or older for that matter. I have a few disagreements with a few people here, but I think I've always taken their comments honestly and sincerely). I also accept that my previous statement, as well as nearly every statement I've ever made on the internet, was unsolicited. I feel your comment is different in that you are attacking someone for receiving your unsolicited advice. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite, though maybe I am.
I will own up to A-Hole, but I think douche bag is a bit inappropriate. Isn't that a feminine hygiene product?
ps. +1 internets for Keith. I love TED.
i cant defend my statement about juniors giving advice. it doesnt make any sense and is way off the mark.
not sure where i was going with that one.
All right gentlemen, looks like we are all chilled out. Hey Spackle, I for one would like to know whats really going on in Baghdad, what is it like living there day to day?
Ok this is really scaring me, is the professions current state this bad globally? or is it just US?
I am a NZ high school student and i plan to do architecture but it looks like the professions full of negatives.. it seems even if u have the passion, it will not get you very far,,,,,, Should i make a more realistic career choice? please help me out
Do it. It's probably the most comprehensive education you can get. Plus it's fun.
You can go into real estate, construction, marketing, interactive design, urban planning, video games...
Depends on you and where you want to go later in life. If you're thinking about it now, you will be for the rest of your life, wondering, what if.
I think almost all professions are bad right now, everywhere - but especially in the US and some other countries that are still working through some overleveraging issues (England?). I wouldn't look at current conditions and assume that they will be constant across your career - for anything.
The funny part is that from bashing the baby boomers who started a bunch of stupid wars, we are now listening from a dude based in Iraq, about how awesome this profession is. C'mon people, it is time for us to think of architecture as a real profession and business, rather than an obscure pro-bono art, on its way out. This is the only way we can survive the harsh realities of the business environment.
Oh, and the whole "architecture does not pay well, if at all" rant is created by firm owners who want to make huge wads of profit.
Case in point - a local firm here whose employees get paid an average of 15$ an hour, work about 80 hours a week without overtime, and the boss drives a Maserati or Porsche based on what he feels like that day.
God, sameold. That example is totally a case to me of why academia has failed this profession. The schools lately have excelled at teaching youngsters that they should feel grateful to get an unpaid internship, but have failed at showing the greater world how our skills are valuable.
I've decided I'm not teaching anymore, at least not in an architecture school, because I just can't be complicit in this any longer. Higher education is broken, not only in architecture, but especially so there, and the constant clamor on this website for people to review a portfolio or advise on which of 25 schools to apply to makes me sick.
I agree with how broken higher education has become. Tuition goes up and quality goes down.
I also think people expect too much out of their education. At the end of the day, it's not the school that defines you or makes or breaks your career. It's a bit of luck, timing, work ethic/passion and talent. Every person I know who's wanted to take things to another level in their professionally, has succeeded in doing so. Sustaining is another thing.
I've also noticed so many people running towards government jobs and looking to blend with some mega AEC company. A jobs a job but I never wanted that for myself. Bureaucratic corps are lame.
School sucks.
conventional practioners like to point their fingers at academia while make over-arching generalizations for what they perceive as a threat to the way they do things.
It is also hard to respect those who subscribe to idea of an oil-based economy. So building army barracks in Iraq and working for free both sound like good examples of selling out.
conventional [educators] like to point their fingers at [practitioners] while make over-arching generalizations for what they perceive as a threat to the way they do things.
Yeah, what babs said. I've been playing on both sides the last four years and while I never feel guilty about the professional work I do, I can't say the opposite. In fact, I feel no threat from academia (seriously? How could I?); I feel a threat from a public that has no idea what architects do and what we can bring to any project besides pretty drawings, e.g this thread.
Also, fotini, Im asking honestly: how old are you? I'm old. I've seen a lot of changes in the way architecture is taught and in the way the practices run these last 25 years.
there is no such thing as conventional educators, because they are always changing. At faster speeds than practitioners.
there is no such thing as conventional educators, because they are always changing. At faster speeds than practitioners.
Really? This has been your real-life experience? I know that whatever background you have is going to be different than mine, but I actually attended (4) different universities and by and large the professors are just as lazy and resistant to any change as their private sector colleagues. I took an AutoCAD class in around 1997ish where I spent class time learning FORTRAN 77. Do you want to know what the '77' means? For the instructor, that was normal. He had been using that software for 20 years. For me, even with hindsight, it seems that had been obsolete for a looong time. I had an instructor in grad school that had us build a physical model of our design at something like 1/4" scale so that we could take a webcam in our hand through the front door and make a video walk-through of the model. I had a laptop with 3dmax on it at the time. More of the same for the rest of my education, with only an occasional exception. As a general rule, very few professors bothered to educate themselves on AutoCAD, FormZ, 3d max, photoshop, or really any other tool they didn't learn when they were in school 10 or 20 years previous.
Fotini - For the record, I subscribe to one thing and one thing only and that's Netflix.
"...it hard to respect people who subscribe to an oil-based economy." And whom are you referring to, the .0001% of workers from first world countries who occupy jobs in oil producing countries or the 99% of local nationals and other third world workers who come to these places to make a better life for themselves and their families? Shame on those sellouts!
Not sure if you've read anything besides a starbucks menu lately, but the war is OVER! No army barracks here.
And how is "working" for free selling out?! LOL. I completed a six month fellowship. I didn't get paid, but I did get to travel for free and all my expenses paid. Plus the experience of working throughout SE Asia was invaluable...not to mention fun.
It's just so typical for design types to think that they are too good for something. You spend so much time being picky and thinking you're better than everyone else, that life passes you buy and you find yourself blogging about how disappointed you are with the industry.
spackle, a fellowship and working for free are two different things. Working for free is only possible if you have the means to do so.
As far as education goes,The university is not there to produce the next worker, it is there to produce the next thinker.
thinking doesn't pay bills. you go to school to get a job. thinking is implied. dont you think?
Spackle, im kind of curious about what your role in Iraq is, I immediately think about something that relates to the American presence in the middle east, which is primarily a military one even if the war is over. So if you have 'a job'.... is it for the army?
If you're now posing as a humanitarian, than it seems like you are more of dreamer, than someone who just wants a job, in that regard its senseless to bash design. Because design has much to offer humanitarian endeavors, a job that just pays the bills does not accomplish that.
your story is full-o-holes
not bashing design. I'm simply saying a good number of people in design tend to put themselves on a pedestal. Nothing groundbreaking with that comment. I think professors are a perfect example of this and a big reason why young professionals struggle their first few years. They simply expect too much. Instantaneous success.
I also think employers need to do a better job of coaching and managing staff. Grooming them, investing in them. I've been in places, like the one I'm in now, where staff is basically setup to fail. Little to no support, poor communication among team members and as a result, people end up looking after themselves. That's no way to run a business and it's scary when an industry has demonstrated its willingness to go in that direction.
Any experience is good experience. As I mentioned before, I am not working directly on design projects but more in a project and business management role. While I miss doing plans, designs and renderings and all that stuff, being on the other side has been a great learning experience.
I've never liked the saying ' you only become an good architect when you're 50'. That's rubbish. Aspiring architects and designers just need to be more willing to take a chances with jobs that maybe slightly out of the box or off the beaten path. I think the answer to being a good architect or designer is exposure,variety and practice. For some that might be 30, for others, maybe it's 50.
Architecture school gives you so many tools and businesses across the board are looking to integrate design into their business models. It's a perfect opportunity for creative minds to get to work. You can always find your way back to architecture if you're that passionate about it.
I said I would leave political rhetoric from this discussion but as people have asked about Iraq, I will say a few quick things.
Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines...Those all fall under Department of Defense (DOD). The US DOD has no bases in Iraq...zero. They are completely gone. The Department of State (DOS) is still around but I guess they are overseeing reconstruction and other things.
Despite what is shown on the TV, this place is turning around. The number of Europeans, Americans, Chinese, Koreans, Turkish... walking around, eating at outdoor cafes is incredible given what was going on just a few months ago. Obviously its still dangerous but for the most part, things are very good.
I work and live with Iraqis . We talk at length about they want for their future and its more industries than oil, security and logistics. They want everything everyone else has and they dont care if its local, western, eastern or from another planet..they just want more opportunities. Cities like Basra and Erbil, they want to be like Dubai or Istanbul and that's exactly what's happening. It's exciting.
Everyone was waiting to see what Iraq would be after the US left. The dust is settling and things are looking good. There are so many companies moving in, setting up partnerships with schools and training programs for unskilled workers.
If Iraq could get Iran off of their back and if somehow the Shites and Sunnis could leave each other alone, this would be such a incredible place. It's Mesopotamia. The beginning of civilization. I can't think of a more meaningful and interesting place to be.
Nice post, Spackle, thank you for sharing that. Interesting times. Be careful.
I had no idea so many peple would see my posting. On other venues, my comments about the architecture profession's ills have been supressed.
I seem to have exposed a generational conflict in the profession. Med really dislikes Boomers. I hope that this bright younger fellow does not think all Boomers are evil and self - centered. I had my share of mistreatment from my architecture elders during the 1980's. No mentoring - you were given menial tasks that taught you nothing, told to shut up if you had an opinion on design, told that your interest in historical designs was useless, and laid off quickly when things were slow. The American Architecture profession must stop emulating the evil tradition of college fraternities' hazing younger members.
I want to thank Geezertect for vindicating the blue collar direction my work has taken. Having rehabbed 3 vintage houses, I learned enough manual historic preservation skills to adapt from being a CAD designer into a traditional craftsperson. I can make a modest living with my understanding of old house construction, plaster, finishes, etc. and am able to perform a useful function in my own historic neighborhood. I sometimes find myself taking the place of older local craftsmen who have retired or passed away, sometimes re-using their vintage tools that I buy or find abandoned.
My own family is over 300 years old, and the traditions of our generations were always respected. As in all families, things were never perfect. But there was no overt animosity between the elder generations and their successors, and there was a positive sense of adaptation and continuity. Hopefully it is not too naieve to expect the American Architecture profession to do the same.
Thank you for this interesting thread!
I can understand how you feel med. I can not say that I am completely free of the same prejudice. It would probably be much harder for me if I had the same experiences you have had.
However, blaming others, even when they may be at fault, will only distract you from your own self-deceit. If it is fair, I would ask you to make the association between the judgements you make about the boomers and the judgments that many of them have made about Islam and the Middle East. Do you honestly think anything good can come out of broadcasting that a generation, religion or culture might be mostly greedy, or violent, ignorant etc?
Do not forget that this, the internet, is not possible without their hard work, and don't forget affordable personal computing as well! Some might say that that alone makes up for all of the thoughtless buildings many of them helped create.
People who act out of greed or selfish ignorance are very easy to comprehend because they are very predictable. The Formal aspects of the Profession of Architecture gives many uninspired people a safe haven from the struggles of walking the difficult path. If you let your highest level of intuition guide you, you will see how trite of an obstacle those formal organizations are. You do not have to remind others of their failures or their responsibilities. If you lead by example they will remind themselves, and that is much more persuasive.
well said.
50 is the age most architects take off. i heard thom mayne and gehry were bankrupt a couple times already by then.
Start your own office!! rennovate kitchens and bathrooms and slowly move into other things!!
you're still in it, just have to adapt. even if that's doing furniture or the small things, architecture comes in many scales.
Been away for a while from this thread, I want to tackle some questions comments.
How to find Retired Architects? I just ask around, for example with firms figure out where all the acronyms are, some are retired some are teaching. I have found many AIA fellows are especially generous with their time their names are online. This is a good point to address education, you have to do some digging to get a good one, and if you just follow the herd you will have an ordinary education and a ranked school. Rural Studio is the best example of digging around looking for gems, other schools are picking up on their example. Architecture is a vocation, an art, and a profession. Those three things are sometimes in conflict in the academic world. You can build for yourself a solid education almost anywhere you go, but you have to work at it and work hard.
I know architects can be many things but right now I am finding the role of architect as a collector of needs and resources most interesting. The community garden project has had a surprising outpouring of help and support and has taught me a lot. We also have been very busy and so I am not getting paid and that is a hardship but I have this notion that if I can affect some kind of change for this community then some kind of positive change may come my way. Finding jobs is hard but having a posse out looking on your behalf helps a lot. How do you recruit your personal professional development posse?
1 doing good deeds for others
2 Respecting yourself and your profession (this may need some more explaining)
3 seeking out wisdom from those who have it
4 following through on your commitments
I think this is what I have been doing lately and it has yielded some leads some small design work and I can see a path out of this dark space I am in my career. It took a lot for me to recognize that I can get a lot farther with help than I could on my own.
Respecting yourself and your profession
I think there are a lot of gray areas out there but in my view doing commercial work for free for businesses or individuals who are able to pay you is not good. Working for a firm that pads the books, cheats or blatantly misleads clients is also bad. Working to improve a community, taking on a project or a cause that otherwise would not be done is good even if you are not paid. The project I am working on is not taking away employment from anyone. it is building something in a community whose physical environment has had a long and continuous history of neglect and failure, Architectural failures such as buildings falling apart and other social failures. A little change, an image of the possibility for a better future, one that the residents might have some control over, is possibly the best outlet for my training available to me right now. We should ask ourselves are we using our skills for the most good. How much time can we afford to give? I was surprised at some of the barriers the community group had before them, these are problems that we as design professionals know how to overcome. Find a problem that a group is facing and start designing. If you can help find a way to get past the problem you have done the community, the profession and yourself a favor.
Over and OUT
Peter N
Hello PJN
You are a very thoughtful person. Pointing out the necessity of proper community behavior from architects is very important, even in the current poor business environment.
Both good and bad architect'sbehaviors from have been memorable;
The bad:
One architect I worked for deliberately covered an art deco school with gross pebble-crete cladding. I was caught showing an unrelated but beautiful restoration project photo on a design magazine to another person. Out of nowhere this owner / architect jumped on my case "no one cares about your design opinions! This office was located in the largely hispanic Houston Heights, and fearing a break-in by local ethnic residents, this guy kept a loaded shotgun next to his desk. I wondered if I might be shot if I came into the office after hours.
At an interview for a onother firm, the owner/architect's first remark when I walked in was "Thank God you're not an ** n-word or an Arab! He then told me my portfolio looked "thrown together" and my experience was lousy. He then wanted to know when I could start. I left.
The good:
Elliott Rothschild AIA (1943-2007). This architect welcomed me, then a young stranger, to Philadelphia in the 1980's. He had his own firm then, but lost it in the 1991 recession. Even as a "fallen star" he kept working and gave of himself to a generation of younger architects. We worked together years later on housing and restoration projects. At a critical project deadline, two family members, my father and brother in law both died on the same day. Elliot was there for me. With his help, our team finished the work, and I Ieft for my home city.
In 2007 Elliott was stricken with lymphatic cancer. I had the privilege of seeing him off on his last work day at another firm. Though frail from chemotherapy, this brave and unselfish man only asked about how I was, and how my projects were going.
The architecture profession has a striking capacity for both good and evil. Even if it means a life of less money, and not calling the shots in a firm, I want to be like Elliott. I think that the good we do will outlive us.
WLB
It IS a Bad Profession. But, it's a pretty fun HOBBY. I just had a son last year, I won't encourage him to be an Architect for a living. I'm getting him on a track to be an NFL Punter, or something which requires little work, yet yields high pay. Once he achieves that, he'll find that there is more to life than trying to keep a job that kills your soul.
Anyway, I'll keep doing Architecture, but only when it gives me satisfaction. I will suggest this to all of the rest of you: If you're looking over your shoulder, losing sleep over it, losing your home because there's no work, etc, then just leave it as a job. It really is not worth it. Just disappear - Go find something else to pay the bills, then go design, & hopefully, build your design for yourself. That's how to make Architecture a Great endeavour.
Good luck to my fellow, future missing friends.
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