I have a job, I'm all set. I have a full time job starting soon, I'll have my M.Arch
Here is my rant.
Maybe I'm a rookie to the architecture business. Maybe I don't know it all. But I do know how to run a fucking business. I interview with a firm (name withheld) and they tell me i'm exactly what they are looking for. I contact them a few weeks later, tell me they tell me they'll contact me in a few weeks. almost a month and half goes buy and i get a generic email from the person i interviewed with about two positions for a SUMMER INTERN. Are you kidding me? One is paid, one is not paid. That has got to be the biggest joke ever. You know, not for nothing, but i know how to run a business. You tell them how it is. What if I was holding out for a job in their location? Personally, it feels like a punch in the gut. I would never, as someone who interviews, or the owner, lead on a candidate, ever. I hold too much pride and respect for the time and effort a candidate does to travel to my office and put together a presentation for me. Screw them. They don't need me, and I don't need them.
: understand your pain – not every firm is like that – but, you know what, i've been doing this for a while now and, for every story like yours, i'm convinced there's an equal number of stories about candidates who waste a firm's time and screw around with them.
just last week, we offered to bring an out-of-town candidate to our city for an interview. we'd been working with her for nearly 4-weeks – had a couple of very good phone interviews – we went to a lot of trouble to download and print some very large images that the candidate sent for our review – several of us spent a lot of time with her on the phone explaining our firm and how we work and what we're looking to do
after all of that, we thought it'd be a good idea to meet face to face – i personally spent 1-1/2 to 2 hours just working through the logistics of finding a time when it would be mutually convenient for the candidate and people here she should meet – i spent a lot of time working with the candidate to arrange and explain suitable ground transportation – we purchased a plane ticket for her and sent it to her
monday morning i got an e-mail (not even a phone call) from her, saying she'd decided to stay in the city where she's located and she wouldn't be coming for the interview – and the damn plane ticket's non-refundable – we're totally out $500
my point is this – the courtesy you seek is a two way street – we would never treat a candidate like you've been treated – but, we also don't expect to be treated abusively by candidates either.
I honestly think that's an extreme case of a job candidate screwing over a firm-that's the first example I have ever heard of any firm actually paying to fly in a candidate. I think examples of firms screwing over candidates are way more common-the employer has the power and can (and often do) wield it as they see fit-from what happened to cmdace18 to simply not acknowledging receipt of a resume or sending out a form email rejection.
Actually, I think compared to other professions (law, medicine) and how they operate (I am just basing on this family and friends in law and medicine and engineering), architecture (the profession and the schools) can often operate in a shockingly shabby, unprofessional manner-the way we treat each other and and run our offices and deal with clients- and I think all that could add up and marginalize the profession.
cmdace18 -- i feel your pain. but. until you rack up dem 700 training units in IDP, you DO need other firms. i hate to say it, but just sit out for a moment while your gut heals and get back in the ring. 'cause you just gotta.
when you can legally practice and you run your own firm -- remember how you feel right now. i've mentioned this before, but architects tend to very quickly forget the indignities they suffered at the hands of their superiors when they become superiors themselves.
oldirty, while i agree with you somewhat on who screws who, lack of coutesy goes both ways. i've been on the receiving end of it as an intern and also [just as much] as a business owner.
my view is that any firm that treats candidates badly is going to suffer some pretty severe word-of-mouth ... sure, we can do it if we want, but it's a bad business decision
at our firm, we make a genuine effort to send a reply to every resume or phone inquiry we receive ... it's a ton of work and, especially this time of year, it's really hard to keep on top of the replies (i'm getting about 20 employment inquiries each week) ... but, candidates really respond positively to a reply, even if you tell them you don't have anything to offer them right now ... in fact, most are stunned to even GET a reply.
oldirty: with the possible exception of entry level talent, we always pay to bring employment candidates to our firm for interviews ... we try to make it a day trip, but we sometimes spring for a hotel ... we typically spring for a rental car ... but, we spend a lot of time on the phone with the candidate before we schedule such a trip.
i think everyone here is either missing the point, or i did not explain this situation, and another one correctly..
I ALREADY interviewed with a very very large firm - said i was their ideal candidate, i sent images they requested of my work for the principals who review them , etc. I ask her how many candidates I am up against, she said, don't even worry about that. You are exactly what we are looking for: education, personality, etc. etc. etc. etc.
I'm 24. To recieve that email suggesting that I take a non-paying internship position? ridiculous. Oh.. and ANOTHER firm said theyd send me out an offer - this was 4 weeks ago. Did I get one? nope.
Thank god I dont put all my eggs in one basket, and I was smart enough not to trust anyone. I guess firms are so busy with work, that they don't care about entry level employees. Definitely how not to run a firm, no matter how big or small. Just pisses me off.
cmdace18 ... we get it ... firms are busy ... it's hard to keep track of every candidate who passes through without making a mistake from time to time ... i would never knowingly do to a candidate what happened to you ... we're sympathatetic to your plight ... you have a good job now ... don't ever apply at either of those firms again ... get over it and move on
cmdace, you can't let these things annoy you so much. there is good and bad in the world, and life is too short to be up in arms over the bad. focus on that good job you just got.
Hey, chill guys. I think you're all letting the Columbia threads get to you. She's just venting a bit, like we all do from time to time.
cmdace18- I had the exact opposite thing happen to me. I sent in my resume, they called me back within half an hour. I went in for an interview, 45 minute drive away. They told me they had a design position open for someone at least three years out of school. I pointed out that it stated very clearly on my resume that I was a third year student looking for a summer internship. They flipped through my portfolio just for the heck of it. So I wasted almost two hours of my time (45 min. each way, 15 min. parking, 5. min. waiting, 10 minutes before we got to the point) all because some jackass was in too much of a hurry to bother actually reading my resume. He basically admitted to just seeing that I had experience in single-family housing and not reading the rest.
: we are what most folks would consider a mid-sized firm located in a reasonably large metropolitan area -- we do not have an HR department -- the partners and the project managers do all of the resume reading and recruiting and interviewing -- we devote a lot of time and energy to the recruitment process
rationalist: regretably, the sort of story you tell does happen from time to time at some firms -- what also happens is a firm posting a very clear employment ad, describing the job in question in some detail, only to be inundated by candidates who don't remotely meet the requirements of the job -- the firm still has to wade through those inquiries and, in the case of our firm, issue a response
i cannot overemphasize -- recruitment courtesy is a two way street -- it's an absolutely perfect example of when the "golden rule" should be applied
i hear you rationalist. i certainly don't want cmdace to take my comments the wrong way. i know how much energy i used to waste getting angry at things that i could do nothing about.
"recruitment courtesy is a two way street" >> even more to the point, relationships are two way streets.
cmdace18: I wonder if maybe the firm just sent this to their entire mailing list. Maybe they didn't even mean that they thought you personally would want an entry-level student internship - perhaps the idea was that they were mass-mailing this to see if someone out there knew someone who was interested....
It's hard to say without seeing the specifics of the email. But I do agree with others that it isn't worth expending too much energy getting upset over.
Anyway, I agree that we should all try harder to keep our facts straight, keep track of the people who have applied for jobs, etc.
Yesterday I sent an email to someone applying for a summer internship. I spent a good amount of time trying to word it to address a specific issue. Then I realized after I'd already sent it that it had a big typo in it that made a nonsensical sentence. So not only have I most likely confused the applicant but also made us look sloppy and maybe unprofessional.
I feel that I know how to run a business too, but sometimes find that "hiring season" is also "busy season" and that my attention isn't always 100% where it should be...
On behalf of similarly sloppy employers out there I apologize.
Mar 29, 06 12:00 pm ·
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You know what? Screw Firms
I have a job, I'm all set. I have a full time job starting soon, I'll have my M.Arch
Here is my rant.
Maybe I'm a rookie to the architecture business. Maybe I don't know it all. But I do know how to run a fucking business. I interview with a firm (name withheld) and they tell me i'm exactly what they are looking for. I contact them a few weeks later, tell me they tell me they'll contact me in a few weeks. almost a month and half goes buy and i get a generic email from the person i interviewed with about two positions for a SUMMER INTERN. Are you kidding me? One is paid, one is not paid. That has got to be the biggest joke ever. You know, not for nothing, but i know how to run a business. You tell them how it is. What if I was holding out for a job in their location? Personally, it feels like a punch in the gut. I would never, as someone who interviews, or the owner, lead on a candidate, ever. I hold too much pride and respect for the time and effort a candidate does to travel to my office and put together a presentation for me. Screw them. They don't need me, and I don't need them.
WOW.....
cmdace18 sorry to hear, I'm with you on that.
: understand your pain – not every firm is like that – but, you know what, i've been doing this for a while now and, for every story like yours, i'm convinced there's an equal number of stories about candidates who waste a firm's time and screw around with them.
just last week, we offered to bring an out-of-town candidate to our city for an interview. we'd been working with her for nearly 4-weeks – had a couple of very good phone interviews – we went to a lot of trouble to download and print some very large images that the candidate sent for our review – several of us spent a lot of time with her on the phone explaining our firm and how we work and what we're looking to do
after all of that, we thought it'd be a good idea to meet face to face – i personally spent 1-1/2 to 2 hours just working through the logistics of finding a time when it would be mutually convenient for the candidate and people here she should meet – i spent a lot of time working with the candidate to arrange and explain suitable ground transportation – we purchased a plane ticket for her and sent it to her
monday morning i got an e-mail (not even a phone call) from her, saying she'd decided to stay in the city where she's located and she wouldn't be coming for the interview – and the damn plane ticket's non-refundable – we're totally out $500
my point is this – the courtesy you seek is a two way street – we would never treat a candidate like you've been treated – but, we also don't expect to be treated abusively by candidates either.
I honestly think that's an extreme case of a job candidate screwing over a firm-that's the first example I have ever heard of any firm actually paying to fly in a candidate. I think examples of firms screwing over candidates are way more common-the employer has the power and can (and often do) wield it as they see fit-from what happened to cmdace18 to simply not acknowledging receipt of a resume or sending out a form email rejection.
Actually, I think compared to other professions (law, medicine) and how they operate (I am just basing on this family and friends in law and medicine and engineering), architecture (the profession and the schools) can often operate in a shockingly shabby, unprofessional manner-the way we treat each other and and run our offices and deal with clients- and I think all that could add up and marginalize the profession.
cmdace18 -- i feel your pain. but. until you rack up dem 700 training units in IDP, you DO need other firms. i hate to say it, but just sit out for a moment while your gut heals and get back in the ring. 'cause you just gotta.
when you can legally practice and you run your own firm -- remember how you feel right now. i've mentioned this before, but architects tend to very quickly forget the indignities they suffered at the hands of their superiors when they become superiors themselves.
oldirty, while i agree with you somewhat on who screws who, lack of coutesy goes both ways. i've been on the receiving end of it as an intern and also [just as much] as a business owner.
my view is that any firm that treats candidates badly is going to suffer some pretty severe word-of-mouth ... sure, we can do it if we want, but it's a bad business decision
at our firm, we make a genuine effort to send a reply to every resume or phone inquiry we receive ... it's a ton of work and, especially this time of year, it's really hard to keep on top of the replies (i'm getting about 20 employment inquiries each week) ... but, candidates really respond positively to a reply, even if you tell them you don't have anything to offer them right now ... in fact, most are stunned to even GET a reply.
oldirty: with the possible exception of entry level talent, we always pay to bring employment candidates to our firm for interviews ... we try to make it a day trip, but we sometimes spring for a hotel ... we typically spring for a rental car ... but, we spend a lot of time on the phone with the candidate before we schedule such a trip.
not every firm is run by jerks.
i think everyone here is either missing the point, or i did not explain this situation, and another one correctly..
I ALREADY interviewed with a very very large firm - said i was their ideal candidate, i sent images they requested of my work for the principals who review them , etc. I ask her how many candidates I am up against, she said, don't even worry about that. You are exactly what we are looking for: education, personality, etc. etc. etc. etc.
I'm 24. To recieve that email suggesting that I take a non-paying internship position? ridiculous. Oh.. and ANOTHER firm said theyd send me out an offer - this was 4 weeks ago. Did I get one? nope.
Thank god I dont put all my eggs in one basket, and I was smart enough not to trust anyone. I guess firms are so busy with work, that they don't care about entry level employees. Definitely how not to run a firm, no matter how big or small. Just pisses me off.
im thinking gas and matches man...
cmdace18 ... we get it ... firms are busy ... it's hard to keep track of every candidate who passes through without making a mistake from time to time ... i would never knowingly do to a candidate what happened to you ... we're sympathatetic to your plight ... you have a good job now ... don't ever apply at either of those firms again ... get over it and move on
haha. like i said, i got a accepted a job and am very happy.
like babs said, not all firms are run by jerks.
hey babs, the way u talk about bringing interviewees in, does that mean u r in a big firm, in a city somewhere out there?
cmdace, you can't let these things annoy you so much. there is good and bad in the world, and life is too short to be up in arms over the bad. focus on that good job you just got.
Hey, chill guys. I think you're all letting the Columbia threads get to you. She's just venting a bit, like we all do from time to time.
cmdace18- I had the exact opposite thing happen to me. I sent in my resume, they called me back within half an hour. I went in for an interview, 45 minute drive away. They told me they had a design position open for someone at least three years out of school. I pointed out that it stated very clearly on my resume that I was a third year student looking for a summer internship. They flipped through my portfolio just for the heck of it. So I wasted almost two hours of my time (45 min. each way, 15 min. parking, 5. min. waiting, 10 minutes before we got to the point) all because some jackass was in too much of a hurry to bother actually reading my resume. He basically admitted to just seeing that I had experience in single-family housing and not reading the rest.
: we are what most folks would consider a mid-sized firm located in a reasonably large metropolitan area -- we do not have an HR department -- the partners and the project managers do all of the resume reading and recruiting and interviewing -- we devote a lot of time and energy to the recruitment process
rationalist: regretably, the sort of story you tell does happen from time to time at some firms -- what also happens is a firm posting a very clear employment ad, describing the job in question in some detail, only to be inundated by candidates who don't remotely meet the requirements of the job -- the firm still has to wade through those inquiries and, in the case of our firm, issue a response
i cannot overemphasize -- recruitment courtesy is a two way street -- it's an absolutely perfect example of when the "golden rule" should be applied
ha ha...that's the funniest thing i've read in ages...thanks...truly, thank you
i hear you rationalist. i certainly don't want cmdace to take my comments the wrong way. i know how much energy i used to waste getting angry at things that i could do nothing about.
"recruitment courtesy is a two way street" >> even more to the point, relationships are two way streets.
cmdace18: I wonder if maybe the firm just sent this to their entire mailing list. Maybe they didn't even mean that they thought you personally would want an entry-level student internship - perhaps the idea was that they were mass-mailing this to see if someone out there knew someone who was interested....
It's hard to say without seeing the specifics of the email. But I do agree with others that it isn't worth expending too much energy getting upset over.
Anyway, I agree that we should all try harder to keep our facts straight, keep track of the people who have applied for jobs, etc.
Yesterday I sent an email to someone applying for a summer internship. I spent a good amount of time trying to word it to address a specific issue. Then I realized after I'd already sent it that it had a big typo in it that made a nonsensical sentence. So not only have I most likely confused the applicant but also made us look sloppy and maybe unprofessional.
I feel that I know how to run a business too, but sometimes find that "hiring season" is also "busy season" and that my attention isn't always 100% where it should be...
On behalf of similarly sloppy employers out there I apologize.
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