I graduate with an M.Arch in May. I have been through the interview process the past 4 months, and had received about 5 offers, all of which in a reasonable range. I had been told by the #1 firm on my list that I would hear from them in a week. 2 and 1/2 weeks passed, and I did not hear from them. Meanwhile, I interviewed with another firm in the same city, and they offered me a package that was great. I shook his hand, and accepted the job. This is a nationally recognized firm, their projects are incredible. This morning I recieved a phone call from that firm who told me theyd contact me. Their offer was 5k more than the offer I accepted last week. My first instinct is to call up the firm I accepted from, and be honest and tell them my situation: Just graduated. Tons of loans. 5k more is a lot of money for a 24 year old. However, I do not want to come across as money hungry. It was an un-solicited offer, and it wasnt like 1 or 2k more. I could deal with that. But an offer that is 5k more, in the same city, what do I do?
I plan on calling up the firm I accepted, and just be honest. Say that I got an un-solicited offer (I'll name the firm for him as well) and tell him my dilema.
What are your thoughts? Help please. Thank you all.
no un-solicated offer explanation, no name of other firm necessary. tell them how excited you are to work with them, but you have another offer that you must consider because it offers xxx more. again, how much you would love to work with them, then a real brief money's important (loans, use your own wording of course, it shouldn't require any premeditation), would it be possible to do a bit better.
don't expect the 5k or even half that, but you should come out with something. be super nice, and the worst that can happen is they say that's all we can offer, and you're in the same boat you were in before. and you've shown you're not a complete pansy.
I'm very VERY concerned of their perception of me when I call and mention that I have gotten another offer. That is why I wanted to preface my conversation with an 'unsolicited unexpected offer'. I'm not money hungry nor am I greedy. I very much want to work for this firm, and my advancement in this firm in the next 5 years is wide open. I'm very excited about this. I'm excited about the atmosphere, the projects, the people. However, with my financial situation, having gone to a private institution for undergrad, then an out of state student for Grad, my loans are ridiculous. Like I said, 1k or 2k more, wouldnt bother me. If this firm came back with an offer 2k more, I would take it. I'm young, and 5k is a lot of money. Both principals who head the firms are extremely down to earth, and I am very confident that both would be excellent mentors to me. The last thing i want to do is dirty the waters even before I start.
This situation wasnt like I went out and got offers after I accepted. I had interviewed twice with this firm, and they happened to be late in getting me an offer. It was unexpected.
quite the other perspective. you probably should take his advice, totally agree w/ paragraph 3. but after a year of kicking ass, i hope for your sake you don't have a parag 1 & 2 attitude.
Maybe if you were a more senior person taking the job at firm #2 would make sense, but fresh out of school you really don't have a reputation to worry about ruining or building. As an entry level intern you're basically a nobody in the architecture community and I don't think principals are going to waste their breath swapping stories about you.
If I were the principal at firm #2 and I couldn't match your other offer, I'd respect you more if you took the job at the other firm than I would if you came to work at my firm just so I'd think you were a stand-up guy. I wouldn't want to have you at my office with the 5k constantly hanging over your head.
i'd stay with the firm you offered. you gave them your word and that's going to be worth more in the long run. it will no matter what, get back around to more people than just your prospective employers that you bailed because of money.
you need to figure out what else, besides money, you want to get from each of these firms. from the way you talk about them, they sound interchangable. what does one offer that the other doesn't?
bottom line - i agree with oldfogey's bottom line. stick with you agreed to dance with and keep the doors open at the other firm. if it doesn't work out after a few months, then consider making the jump (if the position is there).
i'm going to put it more bluntly. you shook a hand and accepted an offer. the firm that FIRST OFFERED YOU A JOB did the right thing, they got back to you in a timely manner and gave you a concrete salary offer.
the OTHER firm...BROKE THEIR WORD when they said "we'll call you in a week." and oh, NOW they want you for a paltry $416.67 extra a month (pre-taxes). depending on where you live you might see an extra $125-$150 a paycheck out of that.
since you are inexperienced let me tell you what that firm was doing. they interviewed you "ahead of time" so that, if their financial situation allowed for it, they could take someone on. but only if. or, they just dropped the ball because their heads weren't "in the game." or, subconsciously they wanted to make you wait...in the same way they may have made you wait when you showed up for your interview. was the interviewer late? 5 minutes? 10 minutes?
i'd be real wary of breaking that concrete job offer just for an extra $150 a paycheck. that will be a bridge you burn. and your name will get around town. especially if the firms are in a smaller architecture community (i.e., not NY / LA / SF / chicago / boston)
five years out of school my realization is that my belief and confidence in my own abilities was HIGHEST the day i graduated from school. believe you me, you are going to go thru times where you will REALIZE how NOT worth that extra $5K you are. sorry, but do the right thing and decline your #1 firm.
Regardless of the money, which firm would you prefer to work for? That ought to have as much to do with your decision as the money. For $5k extra per year, which is not HUGE as it will be spread out, will you be as happy with the work and the overall company culture of that firm as with the one whose offer you initially accepted?
I don't think it's at all bad to come back to an employer with a counter-offer. The firm whose offer you initially accepted may well offer you more money when they learn that there is competition, if they really want you in the long term, and then salary won't make a difference in deciding where to work. Using other offers as leverage to push one company you'd prefer to work for to match the salary offer of a competitor is TOTALLY NORMAL in business. It is not disrespectful, greedy, or conniving. Any *sane* employer understands that people have needs to take care of, and have to be practical, and that more money is appealing to everyone, not just money hungry greedy bastards. If someone seriously expects you to work for less than you're worth because you're "passionate" or "artistic," and who would think poorly of you for taking higher pay into consideration because you have student loans and bills to pay off when making a decision about where to work... do you want to work for such a person anyway? Someone who'd think less of you because you are realistially trying to make the most of your financial situation?
Also, you must ask BOTH firms about their raise policies. If the firm where you accepted has some kind of salary review policy that will put your pay up at the difference of $5k more rather quickly (At my first job, I was hired at a particular salary with the understanding that every 6 months, so long as I did well, it would go up by $5k, so at the end of a year at the firm I was making $10k more than my initial job offer. Good deal!). Maybe the 2nd firm that offered you a job is giving you more at the outset, but doesn't plan on giving you a raise as soon as the other. So you have to ask about that.
Susan, two point: First, to a recent grad, 5k a year IS huge. That's over $400 a month before taxes - the difference between being able to pay your school loans and not. And two, most people use other offers as a leverage point BEFORE they accept an offer, not AFTER.
I agree with OldFogey on the 'bottom line'. You gave somebody your word, and risk developing a bad reputation if you go back on it. Tread carefully.
The way I would approach speaking to the firm you've accepted with is to say something like, "I've been looking forward to working with you, because of reasonreasonreason. But I've been offered $5k more by another firm, so theirs is an offer that I need to seriously consider. Due to my financial situation, I am strongly considering accepting this other offer. But I would really enjoy working with you, because I like the projects better/have more responsiblity/already have ideas for this and that/reasonreasonreasontheirsisabetteroption. Is there any way you are able to match their offer?" You will not sound greedy or money-grubbing to most people. Instead, you will sound... reasonable.
They might say no, they can't. (which would at least indicate that they have a good budget planner and know exactly what their limits are for a certain position).
Or they might say yes, if they REALLY want you.
Or they might say, "No, we can't match it, but we can come halfway between our initial offer and their offer."
That is pretty much what I said when I was somewhat in your position. It worked for me.
Its "hugeness" depends on where you live. Not knowing anything about the location of the OP, it might be big, maybe not. Where I am, it wouldn't make an enormous difference because 1/3 of it will go to taxes. I think this level of taxation is fairly unusual, though. Anyway, there are all the other things to consider such as raise schedule and happiness with the work and firm itself, which might add up to being worth $5k in themselves.
I really don't see how a reasonable, sane, considerate employer would think poorly of someone for at least considering an unexpected, higher offer, let alone take the time and energy to drag their reputation through the mud. Situations like this come up often (especially when you are in the fortunate position of hiring intelligent, talented people who are in demand!), and if you are in business and have employees, you have to anticipate that they will take other good offers into consideration and provide some incentive in keeping them working for you. I personally wouldn't advise working for bad businesspeople that rely primarily upon emotional employee devotion & ethics for retainment. Or who would trash-talk among their peers a young graduate for accepting a good option that suddenly comes up. Maybe it's because I am in a large city, but I just can't imagine that the principals of firms sit around gossipping about their entry level employees engaging in standard job decision and salary negotiation behaviours. Any boss who doesn't come from money and who has had to worry about their own bills in the past will probably understand this dilemma. If the person is going to renege on an offer, it's better for them to know now. The worst that the original firm is going to think is probably, "We dodged a bullet, at least s/he didn't back out and take some other offer after we'd already trained them for two months and now we have to start that all over again." Of course it's not ideal to renege on a decision, and of course anyone would feel badly about it, but whatever's best in the long term is important.
Am I weird and alone in thinking that I would probably respect a person I was hiring MORE if they had the nerve to come at me with a counter-offer, rather than finding out that they had accepted what I told them? If I couldn't afford to match the other offer, I'd say so, but it wouldn't decrease my respect for the person to know they were considering it, nor would it compel me to try to destroy the reputation of that person.
One thing everybody has failed to mention is fringe benefits. Make sure you're comparing apples to apples with them too. My previous employer made me pay 50% of my health insurance and 100% of dental, did not make contributions to our 401k's, and was in a location where I had to pay for parking. When I changed jobs my base salary didn't go up significantly, but my new firm pays 100% of health and dental, contributes to our 401k, and has free parking. Some firms are willing to help with expenses associated with training for and taking the ARE and LEED exams. Some firms are more liberal with sending you to training, lectures and the like. It all adds up and can make a big difference in your effective level of pay.
One thing I want to make clear is that this is NOT about leverage. I absolutely want to work for the firm I accepted the offer from. If they came back and met me 1/2 way in between, i WOULD accept it. I respect the firm and their work very very much. I also feel as though I can grow MORE in this firm, as they are a national firm with multiple offices. I am the type of person that keeps my word. I hate confrontation. I want to stick to my gut instinct - to stay with the initial firm. When I asked about raises and personal growth, every firm has had the same answer. "It all depends on your motivation and how much you put in". So, my hard work ethic, and motivation will allow me to succeed. $5000 is a lot for me, especially in a community where the cost of living is MUCH higher than average. Loans, a possible engagement soon, etc. I guess the bottom line is that I would want to know what my firm would offer rather than ignoring it, keeping the intial salary and working day in and day out knowing that 5k 2 miles down the street was available.
dmc, I still think it would be a good idea to inform that firm that you've been offered more money elsewhere, and to ask what they can do about this. It really oughtn't come across as confrontational or nasty at all, especially since you don't sound like the type of personality who would ask this question in a brash, confrontational way. It is an important issue for you to weigh, and they almost certainly will understand that, no matter what your decision is.
It does concern me that they have both given the rather wishy-washy answer of raises and personal growth "depending on your motivation." Well, OF COURSE those things depend on motivation and what you put in - that's a given, and it's not a real answer. Most places do have some kind of general policy regarding this, even if it is largely unspoken. Can you at least ask if they have regularly scheduled (every 6 months or every year, typically) employee performance & salary reviews?
Given what you've said, I would still stay with the intiial firm, because you feel you can grow more, and you have the gut feeling to do so.
saying "i'll call you in a week" and then not doing it...is breaking your word. it's inevitable that these things happen in life, but...was there any explanation? i dunno, the two firms that did that to me were crossed off my list.
that being said, do mention to the firm with the first offer that you did receive a counter-offer and give them a chance to match it. and as bryan said, consider fringe benefits.
much has already been said here, but i feel dmc8150 should probably stick with the he accepted from firm #2.
hindsight is 20/20 of course, but the thing i don't understand is why dmc8150 seemed so quick to accept this offer when he had been interviewing for months and, presumably, still has a few weeks or months before graduation and beginning the job. there would have been nothing wrong with telling firm #2 that although their offer is excellent, that you need a few days to chew on it and weigh the pros & cons with the other offers (five total, right?). this would have bought time to contact firm #1 and force their hand...and would have avoiding the re-neging business completely.
sounds to me like dmc8150 got antsy, lost his cool, nerve, whatever, grabbed the first pretty thing...and is now suffering some regret and trying to rationalize doing something unpleasant. live and learn.
you all aren't looking at this thing from an employer's perspective. at all.
first, if i've hired you (or thought that i've hired you, since you accepted an offer at a price), i've probably spent the time to figure out how i'm going to pay for you (which isn't your damn birthright by the way), how i'm going to integrate you into our project matrix, how to plan out how you're going to fit in to our culture, etc. in other words, i've got a lot of time invested in this on my end. (never mind all the other applicants i passed on in order to extend the offer to you).
all things are fair in the negotiation process, before the deal is made. but once you shake on it, be a man and honor it. there's always going to be a better deal somewhere; just find it before you commit.
OldFogey- actually, I'd say that it's like dating two different guys, and you thought they'd both propose to you. Then guy #2 proposed to you, and you accepted, thinking guy #1 never would. After you've announced your impending marital bliss to your respective families and set a wedding date, guy #1 decides he can't live without you and proposes, with a bigger ring.
Wouldn't you feel pretty shitty breaking your word to guy #2? And would you really expect him to forgive you? Or would you just use guy #2 to negotiate a better honeymoon destination?
Again, I think OldFogey's got the best points here. You must realize that IF you had not already accepted the offer, this would be a very normal thing. But because you rushed into accepting an offer, you must live with the fact that you could've gotten more elsewhere. This is also a very normal thing.
Rationalist, why do I have to suffer and "live with" a decision I had made? This is my first real job situation. I'm fresh out of school, no baggage, clean slate. I am a very honest, loyal, motivated, caring individual. I understand that its a delicate situation, and I'm fully aware.
I feel like some of you are belittling me in the sense that I haven't proved myself, and to forget the offer and take the intial one. I have no ego, thats for sure. However, I am very confident in my abilites, that I do know.
I worked for 7 years in school including 4 summer internships. Don't I deserve a chance to see what they can do with the current offer with my honesty?
Someone please tell me why I cannot phone the firm with whom I accepted, be open, honest, and tell them exactly what my situation is. That's all I'm saying.
I'm not asking the firm to match the offer. I'm not even putting a $ amount out there. I'm not even telling the firm that I do not want to work there. All I'm going to ask for is his advice. If he says he can come within 2k or something, that would be great. If not, then maybe I might re-consider. MAYBE. The last thing I want to do is burn bridges. I understand they have taken the time to budget out how much they can spend on me, etc etc. But what ever happened to the saying "in business, you should do what's best for you, that's business". TRUST me, I am a very honest and sincere guy. This is the last thing I wanted to happen. I honestly and truly want to work for this firm. They have all the qualities I am looking for. All I'm saying is that I want to be honest and open and see what they say.
OK I tend to agree with Susan. Maybe it's because I haven't been working in an architectural office for awhile. I've been working for myself and doing other types of creative projects. But if I were going to hire someone at entry level and they told me they could get 5K more, I'd completely understand them leaving me if I couldn't come up with half that amount, especially if no contracts had been signed and it was just a verbal acceptance (dmc did you sign anything?). For one thing it shows me that I was pitching the ball too low--another firm thought the person was worth more.
After all the posts on archinect about low pay and architectural slavery, I'm just surprised that so many people here have what appears to me to be an un-business like attitude about this question (to me anyway). In the business world everything is driven by money--of course building relationships is important too, and also what you will be doing in your job--and if the firm you accepted is where you see your future then go for it--but money has always got to be taken into account. 5K is not a small amount and is the reference point for your next raise.
As an employer it would be much better in my view if the person did not waste my time working for me for 3 months and then bailed after I had invested time and resources training him. (Now THAT to me would be something to gossip and warn others about.)
As far as the marriage analogy--the woman should marry the man she most sees a future with--she should not marry a guy just because she accepted his proposal. Better to break the engagement than spend the rest of her life wondering what if.
Bottom line is--work for the firm that will most contribute to where you see your future---put yourself first, no one else will. If you decide to go with the money, then the important thing is how you tell the other firm. I personally think if you want to stay with the firm you accepted, tell them about the other offer and ask them if they can do better than the original offer. If they really want you they will probably not have a problem coming up with 2K.
Hyperbolical .. thank you. exactly what my train of thought is. And no, I did not sign anything. It was a handshake. I havent even gotten their policy handbook or any other information.
dmc--i think you would put yourself on the path of architectural masochism were you to just swallow this and not say anything. also. you are entry level and it is not as if the firm spent days figuring out your role, so i don't feel like this is really going to be hard for them even if they have to replace you. At this point you are not a key player in their schema, although I'm sure they like you.
dmc, i don't think anyone is belittling you here. you asked for our advice and that's what you are getting. your are getting many different points of view here. some you agree with. some you do not. only you can make sense of this advise and do what is best for you. best of luck.
in de witt county, TX a handshake constitutes a contract. that's prolly not where you're working, but. relativism regarding one's word is rife in this world and in this profession. when deadlines are guidelines and "sure, i'm available first of june" becomes "sorry, xyz associates is buying me an extra CTA card a month" that is relativism. now here i am surfing archinect from work...but then again i put my 12 hours in today and i only get paid for 8.
besides, you'll probably work at this firm for 1-3 years tops anyway.
there IS a right thing to do, ultimately, and that is to not accept a job offer in an interview without really thinking about things first. cause otherwise...sorry, pal.
agreed ochona. i come from a small town. a handshake and your word mean a lot to me. i know it may not be the norm today, but i still place emphasis on those things. the pay off for me, is that my clients know this of me. they see it first hand. when i say it will be done, it is done.
yeah, not meaning to belittle at all. I just mean that at some point you're going to have to live with the decisions you make, and there's no better time to start than when you enter the professional world. Either you live with the fact that you could be making more elsewhere but you gave your word to someone else prematurely, OR you live with the risk of your (possible?) future boss thinking you're jerking him around and developing a negative opinion of you. I'm not saying this is what absolutely will happen, but that the risk is definitely there. It's up to you to decide whether it's worth that risk to you. It sounds like you already have.
i really appreciate everyone's viewpoints here. I just want to make that clear. Thank you.
I guess what I'm stuggling to say is that I'm young, and made a mistake by quickly accepting a job since I thought the other firm was out of the running. If they had come back with an offer close to the one I accepted (more), I would have disregarded it. I think you put it best hyperbolical "I think you would put yourself on the path of architectural masochism were you to just swallow this and not say anything." I'm the type of person to tell someone what's on my mind, whether it be positive, or negative, but I'm always polite and my comments are well thought out. But it's this specific situation, a business one, the first real business situation in my life, that worries me.
i think in smaller communities the handshake is the thing and yes you build up individual relationships that way--but the firm dmc is working for has several offices around the country and well--in my experience its a dog-eat-dog world out there isn't it? i've worked with corporations, contractors, etc and one starts to realize how competitive and ambitious and bottom-line-oriented everyone really is in the larger business world. If you aren't you stay small and get pushed around occasionally. It's up to dmc how he sees himself fitting in to this world--and how ambitious he is.
dmc, seems like you have your answer, and you have learned from it. now go out there and set things straight and be sure to report back to let us know how it went.
your man of your word speech is quaint, but understandable. but at the same time i am sure many here can tell stories of people promising x,y,z and getting shit in return. you are doing the right thing by calling the firm with the accpeted offer and explaining it quite plainly to them. keep in contact with them and remember you have your whole life ahead of you and no one is expecting a lifetime commitment. maybe in a year or two the other place will look more attractive and the situation you're in then wil look less attractive.
stick with your word.
it is all you have.
and if you come off better you will be rewarded by your integrity.
and if you do not, you will remember never in your life to make such a damn foolish move again
except...it's all how you word it. if you say it the way you did, OF, of course that would be the response. I doubt that you would get the same response if worded as Susan did above. and...DMC isn't bailing for more money, he is talking to the guy and explaining his situation.
After having been in similar situations a few times, and mulling this one over for a day, this is my input, for what it's worth:
a) The first firm shouldn't have waited so long to contact you. This would make me question *their* commitment to *me*.
b) You gave your word to the second firm, and while I probably wouldn't have done that without having given a call-back to the first firm first, and poked around a little, you did, and that's your word.
c) This is your first job out of school, and frankly you will probably have a pretty similar experience in each firm, even though it feels like you won't.
d) $5,000 gross pay over a year isn't actually THAT much. However, you should call up the firm you accepted with, make it clear that you are happy with your choice, but ask to clarify the possibility of wage negotiation with them. I have done this in the past, and it always worked out well. First of all, the second firm will be glad to hear that a rival firm valued you highly; this will prejudice them in your favor and also your choice to honor your commitment will also prejudice them in your favor. Chances are, they will tell you they have a 90-day probation period and they would be happy to review your salary at that point. This is a happy situation. Even happier is if they say: "hmm, interesting, well we're very happy to have you, and glad you chose us; we're going to think about this and get back to you." And then they offer you more. This has happened to me also.
e) Remember, if you don't like it, you can always quit. The first firm, if they really liked you, might even still have a place for you. This is a perfectly fine alternative, although you don't want to do it too many times in too short a succession. But if it's not a good fit for you it's not a good fit for the firm, either--never stay in a job that isn't working for you.
after taking my first ARE - CD's - some of you people worry me. your "word" is not a contract. i can imagine the arbitrator or judge laughing his ass off, "well judge, the contractor gave me his word that he remedied the poorly misaligned anchor bolt locations." now, i am not going to re-read all of this thread to dissect whether or not dmc received a phone offer from the b-list firm and then accepted or if he received an offer letter - SOP in my book, so i will assume it was the latter. given a phone offer it is incumbent upon the one making the offer to follow up with a letter and the letter will typically have the one being offered sign the offer sheet. if none of that happened then no real agreement, contract was made. now the person that made the offer over the phone could have, after the call, gotten into an accident and was killed and no one else in the firm would have even known about the "offer". or he/she could have second thoughts after a particularly potent and strenuous bowel movement. the point is, and i think many of you forget this or have not work long - you are an at will employee, that means you could be fired if your employer has a bad hair day and you failed to tie your right shoe properly. do what makes YOU happy, and fuck your word, your WORD to someone you know for all of 15 minutes means shit in the real world. your word to your friends, family and respected colleages is a different matter.
dmc, i took a job that paid more and provided less opportunity to grow, i left in two months and went back to the firm i left. proof positive that money does not make everyone happy. i have interviewed with firms that have said one way or the other we'll give you a call in two weeks, and even after i called they never returned my calls, again proof positive that you cant expect anyone to look after your best interests but yourself.
I agree with beta and have had those experiences about how much your 'word' means in the business world.
I've had employers and colleagues not follow through on promises that put me in very tight spots. I've learned that unless it's a contract on paper that you can take to court you don't really have much except a nice conversation to remember. Always get it in writing--including a proposal. Both firms know this and operate this way--it's just the way business of any magnitude is done these days.
It's true that word is not binding in most states (although it is, for example, in Massachusetts), but that is beside the point. Of *course* he can get out of it if he wants to.
Also, for the record, I have only once been offered an actual contract to sign for a job in the arch world. I've been at... 7 firms, I believe? So. Apparently not very many firms follow true contract doc procedure. (No WAY!)
do these same architects take on a job without a signed contract? i doubt it. why do architects accept the situation so passively? it puts all power in the hands of the employer, i don't think it is like this in Europe and I can't think of another profession that is so lowly in terms of its working benefits. am I wrong?
when i stated those comments about my word, i apply that to myself. i do not expect others to operate in the same way although i do appreciate those that do what they say they will do. i understand that my word or yours means nothing when it really comes down to it. in entering into business or serious agreements with anyone, i ask them to sign any agreement we have.
hyperbolical- Out of my four jobs, only half of them have had paperwork of any sort beyond tax forms. They just name the price and if I agree I show up. I continue to show up as long as I continue to get pay checks and am being treated decently. It's a very tenuous sort of thing, but even with a contract (unless it's the military), it is anyway. All a contract does is get the terms (pay, benefits, etc.) down in writing, and I've never had a problem getting what was promised to me even without one. A contract provides no job security for the employee, and no guarantee that the employee will ever show up for the employer. All a contract is anyway is your word, just on paper. It's the same thing, just easier to prove.
Rationalist--i guess i am more familiar with working in UK and Europe. Contract provides protection there for unfair dismissal etc which has legal implications. You can't be fired without just cause. Also contracts specify whether you will work indefinitely or for a set period like 1 year before contract may or may not be renewed.
Nonetheless what about other professions in the US--don't they have contracts? As long as architects here accept the status quo, I don't think anything will change in terms of better pay etc. And what about corporate firms here, do they offer contracts?
Working without a contract is kinda like living with someone without being married or marrying someone without a prenup...it might seem like just a piece of paper--- until the relationship breaks down...
the point about getting an offer in writing, and this should be obvious to everyone, is that unless you get the terms of your agreement in writing, it is easier for someone to "forget" about what was stipulated in the offer in the first place. you know with the workforce getting older and alzheimers being an issue. it's a contract in a sense, that it really lays out the terms of your employment; vacation, bonus, sick time, pay, exempt or non-exempt, etc....if no one here asks for that then you are begging to be screwed.
as for the non-compete thing, or other exit interview agreements, have a lawyer review it, and keep in mind, most are tied to severance...
hyperbolic- in the US, contracts are "at-will", which means that the contract dissolves by the will of either party. The only thing really stipulated is the terms of that - i.e. "If employee does not show up for work, or call to inform of illness, for three consecutive days, employer shall consider employee to have quit." and things like that. All our contracts carry the at-will clause saying that either party can dissolve the contract for any or no reason. The only job that I can think of that does not have an at-will clause is the military, which signs contracts for set periods of time, with the choice to renew after that period, and does engage in binding contracts.
Oh, and I guess that's where we're seeing differently - I've lived with my boyfriend for 3 1/2 years now with no legal agreement. It's a matter of trust, in both cases. We've talked about what would happen if it weren't to work out, in terms of the apartment, furniture, etc. and I'm satisfied that neither of us is the type for big stormy violent scenes and drama, so that's enough. I reserve 'pieces of paper' for people I have reason not to trust.
ah, all this debating about the word "word." we're not talking about contracts, we're talking about integrity here. we were taught this in professional practice in school that there is a legal rock-paper-scissors when it comes to modes of contract communication that is thus:
lowest-to-highest
verbal
handwritten
typed
typed with typed revisions or notations
typed with handwritten notations (i.e., made directly before signing)
but it is all freaking beside the point. employment is at-will in the US unless there is a signed contract stating pay, terms of the contract (all contracts have a start date and an end date) and both parties signify their agreement. so by law, you can say, hey, Firm B, the other firm is closer to design center books so i'm going to work over there instead of with you.
there is a difference between what is LEGAL and what is ETHICAL here and that's where "one's word" comes in.
whoa. after this thread i have finally seen this issue from the employer's side and now i know why, even in the midst of a building boom, my bosses don't want to hire anyone, especially entry-level.
the thought that someone might accept an offer and then renege after they have been written into the outlook of the firm for the next few months or years is pretty scary, as is the thought that someone might take a job and then work for 12 weeks and then decide, "you know what, i don't get to do enough design here, i'm gonna go work for someone else who will perceive my brilliance in its correct light."
i have almost been out of school for five years and so now i can be an arsehole and state that: when i was given a entry-level job offer by the firm i wanted to work for i accepted it without reservation and negotiation. because i knew that, while i would contribute to the firm behind that offer, i would also be a bit of a liability, being so young and inexperienced. i felt honored and gratified that i was being offered $33,500 a year and made no objections. i got paid insurance, worked on one giant project literally from start to finish, and have been reaping the benefits of that firm's name on my resume ever since. i worked there two years and quit only because i was depressed because of the weather and homesick.
save the negotiations for when you've got a couple years under your belt. no matter how good you are in front of a computer, you don't yet know how a building goes together. i sure as hell don't.
i have a friend who runs a bar. they were having problems with their head chef. he was not doing the duties of a head chef nor was he even coming close. they fired him. the former chef sought unemployment. he was denied. he appealled, and each side told their story to the judge. even though the judge realized that the former chef was probably in the wrong, my friend never had him sign a piece of paper that outlined his job description. because my friend could not prove that the former chef was not doing his job, because there was no signed piece of paper outlining his job, the former chef was granted unemployment and thus my friend unemployment [tax or insurance???] went up.
i left a message and am still waiting for a response ...
lets look at this situatino from a different point of view...
what's the cut off line for the amount of money you have been offered after you have verbally accepted a job?
for me personally, 5k was over that line.
if you verbally accepted a job for 50k, and then another firm came back at you for 60k, there is no way you can all tell me that you would not call the firm, and inform that of another offer, or at least make it known to them. Ochona, "saving" negotiations" for what? At what age do I have the "green light" to negotiatiate? Why can't my 7 years of school and past experience allow me to do that? Do I have to be working in the field for 15 years before I have that privledge? I just don't agree with that statement. Business is Business. We all have situations in our life that warrant MONEY. Bills, vacations, loans, kids, family, etc. I think anyone who enters the business world has the right to negotiate, espeically when its done in a sincere, honest way. Its one thing if youre 12 years old shoveling snow. This is much much different. Just a thought.
dmc, you are right business is business and each person's situation is different. if you feel that you need to re-negotiate, given all of the factors, do it.
sometimes negotiations are better left for a later time. i'm not saying yours are. i have a friend who has recently been given new responsibilities at her job. she is filling the shoes of the bosses right-hand woman. she is fairly new to the firm but has quickly earned the trust of her boss. she has decided to wait a couple of months to prove how good she is and then speak to her boss. in this situation, by putting off negotiation, she may get more money than if she had negotiated earlier and then had to wait a year for another raise.
my first job in architecture back in the early 90s was for 25k. within 4 months of working there, i spoke with my boss about my role and responsibilities and i got a 25% raise.
personally, and i think you realize this, i would have called all other prospective employers that i had interviewed with and that i was interested in before taking this job.
to answer your quesiton though, 5k or less would not be a point of re-negotiation for me. 10k, might be, but i still don't know. there are so many factors that one must weigh when taking a job. money is one of them. i once took a job for 10k less because i hated where i was currently working and knew i would love my new job and learned much.
sorry, my opinion has been formed by working with literally dozens of entry-level employees...and by being one. i used to chafe when i heard it, but entry-level employees in architecture really are as much a liability as an asset.
you may have worked summers or evenings during school, you may have taken lots of technical courses in school, but until you notch a continuous year of showing up at work at 8 or 9 every weekday and doing what other people tell you to do...or else you'll not get a bad grade or piss off a prof but get fired...then you're really green and new to the game. now, maybe you have extensive construction experience that you got before school. or maybe you've been a welder since you were 19. but even then.
you will make mistakes. you will miss deadlines. you will spend time on things that make absolutely zero impact on when and how your projects get done. you will surf archinect. you will not have any idea what your boss is talking about when she asks you to look up "part L" and call the borough of tower hamlets. you will obsess over the visual aspects of your drawings to the detriment of spending time to research how the curtain wall details you are drawing actually work.
this is not knocking you at all. we ALL do these kinds of things, especially early on. because we're still in school mode. i was, and sometimes i slip back into it.
your employer really IS making an investment in you. be assured, you will make him/her money, but not as much as you will in two to three years. you may know how to rock 3D, but unless you're working for firms that solely do schematic design, you will be relatively clueless on how to be an architect. it is why we don't get licenses right out of school.
the cut off line is zero. never ever ever accept any kind of job offer without thinking it over and talking to your fiancee (side note: congratulations) and without weighing your options and alternatives. do not accept an offer from any firm that you are not willing to spend at least one year at. and most certainly do not think about playing the field once you're married to a firm until you can afford an amicable divorce.
Dilema in approaching Principal about $$,$$$...
Okay, here it is.
I graduate with an M.Arch in May. I have been through the interview process the past 4 months, and had received about 5 offers, all of which in a reasonable range. I had been told by the #1 firm on my list that I would hear from them in a week. 2 and 1/2 weeks passed, and I did not hear from them. Meanwhile, I interviewed with another firm in the same city, and they offered me a package that was great. I shook his hand, and accepted the job. This is a nationally recognized firm, their projects are incredible. This morning I recieved a phone call from that firm who told me theyd contact me. Their offer was 5k more than the offer I accepted last week. My first instinct is to call up the firm I accepted from, and be honest and tell them my situation: Just graduated. Tons of loans. 5k more is a lot of money for a 24 year old. However, I do not want to come across as money hungry. It was an un-solicited offer, and it wasnt like 1 or 2k more. I could deal with that. But an offer that is 5k more, in the same city, what do I do?
I plan on calling up the firm I accepted, and just be honest. Say that I got an un-solicited offer (I'll name the firm for him as well) and tell him my dilema.
What are your thoughts? Help please. Thank you all.
Do just as you said you would - but
no un-solicated offer explanation, no name of other firm necessary. tell them how excited you are to work with them, but you have another offer that you must consider because it offers xxx more. again, how much you would love to work with them, then a real brief money's important (loans, use your own wording of course, it shouldn't require any premeditation), would it be possible to do a bit better.
don't expect the 5k or even half that, but you should come out with something. be super nice, and the worst that can happen is they say that's all we can offer, and you're in the same boat you were in before. and you've shown you're not a complete pansy.
Old Fogey, I appreciate your view.
I'm very VERY concerned of their perception of me when I call and mention that I have gotten another offer. That is why I wanted to preface my conversation with an 'unsolicited unexpected offer'. I'm not money hungry nor am I greedy. I very much want to work for this firm, and my advancement in this firm in the next 5 years is wide open. I'm very excited about this. I'm excited about the atmosphere, the projects, the people. However, with my financial situation, having gone to a private institution for undergrad, then an out of state student for Grad, my loans are ridiculous. Like I said, 1k or 2k more, wouldnt bother me. If this firm came back with an offer 2k more, I would take it. I'm young, and 5k is a lot of money. Both principals who head the firms are extremely down to earth, and I am very confident that both would be excellent mentors to me. The last thing i want to do is dirty the waters even before I start.
This situation wasnt like I went out and got offers after I accepted. I had interviewed twice with this firm, and they happened to be late in getting me an offer. It was unexpected.
quite the other perspective. you probably should take his advice, totally agree w/ paragraph 3. but after a year of kicking ass, i hope for your sake you don't have a parag 1 & 2 attitude.
Maybe if you were a more senior person taking the job at firm #2 would make sense, but fresh out of school you really don't have a reputation to worry about ruining or building. As an entry level intern you're basically a nobody in the architecture community and I don't think principals are going to waste their breath swapping stories about you.
If I were the principal at firm #2 and I couldn't match your other offer, I'd respect you more if you took the job at the other firm than I would if you came to work at my firm just so I'd think you were a stand-up guy. I wouldn't want to have you at my office with the 5k constantly hanging over your head.
hmmmm....
i'd stay with the firm you offered. you gave them your word and that's going to be worth more in the long run. it will no matter what, get back around to more people than just your prospective employers that you bailed because of money.
you need to figure out what else, besides money, you want to get from each of these firms. from the way you talk about them, they sound interchangable. what does one offer that the other doesn't?
bottom line - i agree with oldfogey's bottom line. stick with you agreed to dance with and keep the doors open at the other firm. if it doesn't work out after a few months, then consider making the jump (if the position is there).
i'm going to put it more bluntly. you shook a hand and accepted an offer. the firm that FIRST OFFERED YOU A JOB did the right thing, they got back to you in a timely manner and gave you a concrete salary offer.
the OTHER firm...BROKE THEIR WORD when they said "we'll call you in a week." and oh, NOW they want you for a paltry $416.67 extra a month (pre-taxes). depending on where you live you might see an extra $125-$150 a paycheck out of that.
since you are inexperienced let me tell you what that firm was doing. they interviewed you "ahead of time" so that, if their financial situation allowed for it, they could take someone on. but only if. or, they just dropped the ball because their heads weren't "in the game." or, subconsciously they wanted to make you wait...in the same way they may have made you wait when you showed up for your interview. was the interviewer late? 5 minutes? 10 minutes?
i'd be real wary of breaking that concrete job offer just for an extra $150 a paycheck. that will be a bridge you burn. and your name will get around town. especially if the firms are in a smaller architecture community (i.e., not NY / LA / SF / chicago / boston)
five years out of school my realization is that my belief and confidence in my own abilities was HIGHEST the day i graduated from school. believe you me, you are going to go thru times where you will REALIZE how NOT worth that extra $5K you are. sorry, but do the right thing and decline your #1 firm.
Regardless of the money, which firm would you prefer to work for? That ought to have as much to do with your decision as the money. For $5k extra per year, which is not HUGE as it will be spread out, will you be as happy with the work and the overall company culture of that firm as with the one whose offer you initially accepted?
I don't think it's at all bad to come back to an employer with a counter-offer. The firm whose offer you initially accepted may well offer you more money when they learn that there is competition, if they really want you in the long term, and then salary won't make a difference in deciding where to work. Using other offers as leverage to push one company you'd prefer to work for to match the salary offer of a competitor is TOTALLY NORMAL in business. It is not disrespectful, greedy, or conniving. Any *sane* employer understands that people have needs to take care of, and have to be practical, and that more money is appealing to everyone, not just money hungry greedy bastards. If someone seriously expects you to work for less than you're worth because you're "passionate" or "artistic," and who would think poorly of you for taking higher pay into consideration because you have student loans and bills to pay off when making a decision about where to work... do you want to work for such a person anyway? Someone who'd think less of you because you are realistially trying to make the most of your financial situation?
Also, you must ask BOTH firms about their raise policies. If the firm where you accepted has some kind of salary review policy that will put your pay up at the difference of $5k more rather quickly (At my first job, I was hired at a particular salary with the understanding that every 6 months, so long as I did well, it would go up by $5k, so at the end of a year at the firm I was making $10k more than my initial job offer. Good deal!). Maybe the 2nd firm that offered you a job is giving you more at the outset, but doesn't plan on giving you a raise as soon as the other. So you have to ask about that.
Susan, two point: First, to a recent grad, 5k a year IS huge. That's over $400 a month before taxes - the difference between being able to pay your school loans and not. And two, most people use other offers as a leverage point BEFORE they accept an offer, not AFTER.
I agree with OldFogey on the 'bottom line'. You gave somebody your word, and risk developing a bad reputation if you go back on it. Tread carefully.
PS -
The way I would approach speaking to the firm you've accepted with is to say something like, "I've been looking forward to working with you, because of reasonreasonreason. But I've been offered $5k more by another firm, so theirs is an offer that I need to seriously consider. Due to my financial situation, I am strongly considering accepting this other offer. But I would really enjoy working with you, because I like the projects better/have more responsiblity/already have ideas for this and that/reasonreasonreasontheirsisabetteroption. Is there any way you are able to match their offer?" You will not sound greedy or money-grubbing to most people. Instead, you will sound... reasonable.
They might say no, they can't. (which would at least indicate that they have a good budget planner and know exactly what their limits are for a certain position).
Or they might say yes, if they REALLY want you.
Or they might say, "No, we can't match it, but we can come halfway between our initial offer and their offer."
That is pretty much what I said when I was somewhat in your position. It worked for me.
rationalist -
Its "hugeness" depends on where you live. Not knowing anything about the location of the OP, it might be big, maybe not. Where I am, it wouldn't make an enormous difference because 1/3 of it will go to taxes. I think this level of taxation is fairly unusual, though. Anyway, there are all the other things to consider such as raise schedule and happiness with the work and firm itself, which might add up to being worth $5k in themselves.
I really don't see how a reasonable, sane, considerate employer would think poorly of someone for at least considering an unexpected, higher offer, let alone take the time and energy to drag their reputation through the mud. Situations like this come up often (especially when you are in the fortunate position of hiring intelligent, talented people who are in demand!), and if you are in business and have employees, you have to anticipate that they will take other good offers into consideration and provide some incentive in keeping them working for you. I personally wouldn't advise working for bad businesspeople that rely primarily upon emotional employee devotion & ethics for retainment. Or who would trash-talk among their peers a young graduate for accepting a good option that suddenly comes up. Maybe it's because I am in a large city, but I just can't imagine that the principals of firms sit around gossipping about their entry level employees engaging in standard job decision and salary negotiation behaviours. Any boss who doesn't come from money and who has had to worry about their own bills in the past will probably understand this dilemma. If the person is going to renege on an offer, it's better for them to know now. The worst that the original firm is going to think is probably, "We dodged a bullet, at least s/he didn't back out and take some other offer after we'd already trained them for two months and now we have to start that all over again." Of course it's not ideal to renege on a decision, and of course anyone would feel badly about it, but whatever's best in the long term is important.
Am I weird and alone in thinking that I would probably respect a person I was hiring MORE if they had the nerve to come at me with a counter-offer, rather than finding out that they had accepted what I told them? If I couldn't afford to match the other offer, I'd say so, but it wouldn't decrease my respect for the person to know they were considering it, nor would it compel me to try to destroy the reputation of that person.
One thing everybody has failed to mention is fringe benefits. Make sure you're comparing apples to apples with them too. My previous employer made me pay 50% of my health insurance and 100% of dental, did not make contributions to our 401k's, and was in a location where I had to pay for parking. When I changed jobs my base salary didn't go up significantly, but my new firm pays 100% of health and dental, contributes to our 401k, and has free parking. Some firms are willing to help with expenses associated with training for and taking the ARE and LEED exams. Some firms are more liberal with sending you to training, lectures and the like. It all adds up and can make a big difference in your effective level of pay.
Thank you all for the responses.
One thing I want to make clear is that this is NOT about leverage. I absolutely want to work for the firm I accepted the offer from. If they came back and met me 1/2 way in between, i WOULD accept it. I respect the firm and their work very very much. I also feel as though I can grow MORE in this firm, as they are a national firm with multiple offices. I am the type of person that keeps my word. I hate confrontation. I want to stick to my gut instinct - to stay with the initial firm. When I asked about raises and personal growth, every firm has had the same answer. "It all depends on your motivation and how much you put in". So, my hard work ethic, and motivation will allow me to succeed. $5000 is a lot for me, especially in a community where the cost of living is MUCH higher than average. Loans, a possible engagement soon, etc. I guess the bottom line is that I would want to know what my firm would offer rather than ignoring it, keeping the intial salary and working day in and day out knowing that 5k 2 miles down the street was available.
dmc, I still think it would be a good idea to inform that firm that you've been offered more money elsewhere, and to ask what they can do about this. It really oughtn't come across as confrontational or nasty at all, especially since you don't sound like the type of personality who would ask this question in a brash, confrontational way. It is an important issue for you to weigh, and they almost certainly will understand that, no matter what your decision is.
It does concern me that they have both given the rather wishy-washy answer of raises and personal growth "depending on your motivation." Well, OF COURSE those things depend on motivation and what you put in - that's a given, and it's not a real answer. Most places do have some kind of general policy regarding this, even if it is largely unspoken. Can you at least ask if they have regularly scheduled (every 6 months or every year, typically) employee performance & salary reviews?
Given what you've said, I would still stay with the intiial firm, because you feel you can grow more, and you have the gut feeling to do so.
ps congrats on the possible engagement. ;)
saying "i'll call you in a week" and then not doing it...is breaking your word. it's inevitable that these things happen in life, but...was there any explanation? i dunno, the two firms that did that to me were crossed off my list.
that being said, do mention to the firm with the first offer that you did receive a counter-offer and give them a chance to match it. and as bryan said, consider fringe benefits.
much has already been said here, but i feel dmc8150 should probably stick with the he accepted from firm #2.
hindsight is 20/20 of course, but the thing i don't understand is why dmc8150 seemed so quick to accept this offer when he had been interviewing for months and, presumably, still has a few weeks or months before graduation and beginning the job. there would have been nothing wrong with telling firm #2 that although their offer is excellent, that you need a few days to chew on it and weigh the pros & cons with the other offers (five total, right?). this would have bought time to contact firm #1 and force their hand...and would have avoiding the re-neging business completely.
sounds to me like dmc8150 got antsy, lost his cool, nerve, whatever, grabbed the first pretty thing...and is now suffering some regret and trying to rationalize doing something unpleasant. live and learn.
you all aren't looking at this thing from an employer's perspective. at all.
first, if i've hired you (or thought that i've hired you, since you accepted an offer at a price), i've probably spent the time to figure out how i'm going to pay for you (which isn't your damn birthright by the way), how i'm going to integrate you into our project matrix, how to plan out how you're going to fit in to our culture, etc. in other words, i've got a lot of time invested in this on my end. (never mind all the other applicants i passed on in order to extend the offer to you).
all things are fair in the negotiation process, before the deal is made. but once you shake on it, be a man and honor it. there's always going to be a better deal somewhere; just find it before you commit.
so on point OF.
the only thing you have is your word at this young age in your career. stick to it, and go out and prove your worth.
OldFogey- actually, I'd say that it's like dating two different guys, and you thought they'd both propose to you. Then guy #2 proposed to you, and you accepted, thinking guy #1 never would. After you've announced your impending marital bliss to your respective families and set a wedding date, guy #1 decides he can't live without you and proposes, with a bigger ring.
Wouldn't you feel pretty shitty breaking your word to guy #2? And would you really expect him to forgive you? Or would you just use guy #2 to negotiate a better honeymoon destination?
Again, I think OldFogey's got the best points here. You must realize that IF you had not already accepted the offer, this would be a very normal thing. But because you rushed into accepting an offer, you must live with the fact that you could've gotten more elsewhere. This is also a very normal thing.
Rationalist, why do I have to suffer and "live with" a decision I had made? This is my first real job situation. I'm fresh out of school, no baggage, clean slate. I am a very honest, loyal, motivated, caring individual. I understand that its a delicate situation, and I'm fully aware.
I feel like some of you are belittling me in the sense that I haven't proved myself, and to forget the offer and take the intial one. I have no ego, thats for sure. However, I am very confident in my abilites, that I do know.
I worked for 7 years in school including 4 summer internships. Don't I deserve a chance to see what they can do with the current offer with my honesty?
Someone please tell me why I cannot phone the firm with whom I accepted, be open, honest, and tell them exactly what my situation is. That's all I'm saying.
I'm not asking the firm to match the offer. I'm not even putting a $ amount out there. I'm not even telling the firm that I do not want to work there. All I'm going to ask for is his advice. If he says he can come within 2k or something, that would be great. If not, then maybe I might re-consider. MAYBE. The last thing I want to do is burn bridges. I understand they have taken the time to budget out how much they can spend on me, etc etc. But what ever happened to the saying "in business, you should do what's best for you, that's business". TRUST me, I am a very honest and sincere guy. This is the last thing I wanted to happen. I honestly and truly want to work for this firm. They have all the qualities I am looking for. All I'm saying is that I want to be honest and open and see what they say.
OK I tend to agree with Susan. Maybe it's because I haven't been working in an architectural office for awhile. I've been working for myself and doing other types of creative projects. But if I were going to hire someone at entry level and they told me they could get 5K more, I'd completely understand them leaving me if I couldn't come up with half that amount, especially if no contracts had been signed and it was just a verbal acceptance (dmc did you sign anything?). For one thing it shows me that I was pitching the ball too low--another firm thought the person was worth more.
After all the posts on archinect about low pay and architectural slavery, I'm just surprised that so many people here have what appears to me to be an un-business like attitude about this question (to me anyway). In the business world everything is driven by money--of course building relationships is important too, and also what you will be doing in your job--and if the firm you accepted is where you see your future then go for it--but money has always got to be taken into account. 5K is not a small amount and is the reference point for your next raise.
As an employer it would be much better in my view if the person did not waste my time working for me for 3 months and then bailed after I had invested time and resources training him. (Now THAT to me would be something to gossip and warn others about.)
As far as the marriage analogy--the woman should marry the man she most sees a future with--she should not marry a guy just because she accepted his proposal. Better to break the engagement than spend the rest of her life wondering what if.
Bottom line is--work for the firm that will most contribute to where you see your future---put yourself first, no one else will. If you decide to go with the money, then the important thing is how you tell the other firm. I personally think if you want to stay with the firm you accepted, tell them about the other offer and ask them if they can do better than the original offer. If they really want you they will probably not have a problem coming up with 2K.
Hyperbolical .. thank you. exactly what my train of thought is. And no, I did not sign anything. It was a handshake. I havent even gotten their policy handbook or any other information.
dmc--i think you would put yourself on the path of architectural masochism were you to just swallow this and not say anything. also. you are entry level and it is not as if the firm spent days figuring out your role, so i don't feel like this is really going to be hard for them even if they have to replace you. At this point you are not a key player in their schema, although I'm sure they like you.
dmc, i don't think anyone is belittling you here. you asked for our advice and that's what you are getting. your are getting many different points of view here. some you agree with. some you do not. only you can make sense of this advise and do what is best for you. best of luck.
in de witt county, TX a handshake constitutes a contract. that's prolly not where you're working, but. relativism regarding one's word is rife in this world and in this profession. when deadlines are guidelines and "sure, i'm available first of june" becomes "sorry, xyz associates is buying me an extra CTA card a month" that is relativism. now here i am surfing archinect from work...but then again i put my 12 hours in today and i only get paid for 8.
besides, you'll probably work at this firm for 1-3 years tops anyway.
there IS a right thing to do, ultimately, and that is to not accept a job offer in an interview without really thinking about things first. cause otherwise...sorry, pal.
agreed ochona. i come from a small town. a handshake and your word mean a lot to me. i know it may not be the norm today, but i still place emphasis on those things. the pay off for me, is that my clients know this of me. they see it first hand. when i say it will be done, it is done.
yeah, not meaning to belittle at all. I just mean that at some point you're going to have to live with the decisions you make, and there's no better time to start than when you enter the professional world. Either you live with the fact that you could be making more elsewhere but you gave your word to someone else prematurely, OR you live with the risk of your (possible?) future boss thinking you're jerking him around and developing a negative opinion of you. I'm not saying this is what absolutely will happen, but that the risk is definitely there. It's up to you to decide whether it's worth that risk to you. It sounds like you already have.
i really appreciate everyone's viewpoints here. I just want to make that clear. Thank you.
I guess what I'm stuggling to say is that I'm young, and made a mistake by quickly accepting a job since I thought the other firm was out of the running. If they had come back with an offer close to the one I accepted (more), I would have disregarded it. I think you put it best hyperbolical "I think you would put yourself on the path of architectural masochism were you to just swallow this and not say anything." I'm the type of person to tell someone what's on my mind, whether it be positive, or negative, but I'm always polite and my comments are well thought out. But it's this specific situation, a business one, the first real business situation in my life, that worries me.
i think in smaller communities the handshake is the thing and yes you build up individual relationships that way--but the firm dmc is working for has several offices around the country and well--in my experience its a dog-eat-dog world out there isn't it? i've worked with corporations, contractors, etc and one starts to realize how competitive and ambitious and bottom-line-oriented everyone really is in the larger business world. If you aren't you stay small and get pushed around occasionally. It's up to dmc how he sees himself fitting in to this world--and how ambitious he is.
dmc, seems like you have your answer, and you have learned from it. now go out there and set things straight and be sure to report back to let us know how it went.
yes please let us know what happens!
what will make you happy?
your man of your word speech is quaint, but understandable. but at the same time i am sure many here can tell stories of people promising x,y,z and getting shit in return. you are doing the right thing by calling the firm with the accpeted offer and explaining it quite plainly to them. keep in contact with them and remember you have your whole life ahead of you and no one is expecting a lifetime commitment. maybe in a year or two the other place will look more attractive and the situation you're in then wil look less attractive.
stick with your word.
it is all you have.
and if you come off better you will be rewarded by your integrity.
and if you do not, you will remember never in your life to make such a damn foolish move again
except...it's all how you word it. if you say it the way you did, OF, of course that would be the response. I doubt that you would get the same response if worded as Susan did above. and...DMC isn't bailing for more money, he is talking to the guy and explaining his situation.
After having been in similar situations a few times, and mulling this one over for a day, this is my input, for what it's worth:
a) The first firm shouldn't have waited so long to contact you. This would make me question *their* commitment to *me*.
b) You gave your word to the second firm, and while I probably wouldn't have done that without having given a call-back to the first firm first, and poked around a little, you did, and that's your word.
c) This is your first job out of school, and frankly you will probably have a pretty similar experience in each firm, even though it feels like you won't.
d) $5,000 gross pay over a year isn't actually THAT much. However, you should call up the firm you accepted with, make it clear that you are happy with your choice, but ask to clarify the possibility of wage negotiation with them. I have done this in the past, and it always worked out well. First of all, the second firm will be glad to hear that a rival firm valued you highly; this will prejudice them in your favor and also your choice to honor your commitment will also prejudice them in your favor. Chances are, they will tell you they have a 90-day probation period and they would be happy to review your salary at that point. This is a happy situation. Even happier is if they say: "hmm, interesting, well we're very happy to have you, and glad you chose us; we're going to think about this and get back to you." And then they offer you more. This has happened to me also.
e) Remember, if you don't like it, you can always quit. The first firm, if they really liked you, might even still have a place for you. This is a perfectly fine alternative, although you don't want to do it too many times in too short a succession. But if it's not a good fit for you it's not a good fit for the firm, either--never stay in a job that isn't working for you.
That's all.
Excellent, excellent, excellent. I will do so tomorrow AM, and report back. Thank you all.
after taking my first ARE - CD's - some of you people worry me. your "word" is not a contract. i can imagine the arbitrator or judge laughing his ass off, "well judge, the contractor gave me his word that he remedied the poorly misaligned anchor bolt locations." now, i am not going to re-read all of this thread to dissect whether or not dmc received a phone offer from the b-list firm and then accepted or if he received an offer letter - SOP in my book, so i will assume it was the latter. given a phone offer it is incumbent upon the one making the offer to follow up with a letter and the letter will typically have the one being offered sign the offer sheet. if none of that happened then no real agreement, contract was made. now the person that made the offer over the phone could have, after the call, gotten into an accident and was killed and no one else in the firm would have even known about the "offer". or he/she could have second thoughts after a particularly potent and strenuous bowel movement. the point is, and i think many of you forget this or have not work long - you are an at will employee, that means you could be fired if your employer has a bad hair day and you failed to tie your right shoe properly. do what makes YOU happy, and fuck your word, your WORD to someone you know for all of 15 minutes means shit in the real world. your word to your friends, family and respected colleages is a different matter.
dmc, i took a job that paid more and provided less opportunity to grow, i left in two months and went back to the firm i left. proof positive that money does not make everyone happy. i have interviewed with firms that have said one way or the other we'll give you a call in two weeks, and even after i called they never returned my calls, again proof positive that you cant expect anyone to look after your best interests but yourself.
I agree with beta and have had those experiences about how much your 'word' means in the business world.
I've had employers and colleagues not follow through on promises that put me in very tight spots. I've learned that unless it's a contract on paper that you can take to court you don't really have much except a nice conversation to remember. Always get it in writing--including a proposal. Both firms know this and operate this way--it's just the way business of any magnitude is done these days.
It's true that word is not binding in most states (although it is, for example, in Massachusetts), but that is beside the point. Of *course* he can get out of it if he wants to.
Also, for the record, I have only once been offered an actual contract to sign for a job in the arch world. I've been at... 7 firms, I believe? So. Apparently not very many firms follow true contract doc procedure. (No WAY!)
do these same architects take on a job without a signed contract? i doubt it. why do architects accept the situation so passively? it puts all power in the hands of the employer, i don't think it is like this in Europe and I can't think of another profession that is so lowly in terms of its working benefits. am I wrong?
when i stated those comments about my word, i apply that to myself. i do not expect others to operate in the same way although i do appreciate those that do what they say they will do. i understand that my word or yours means nothing when it really comes down to it. in entering into business or serious agreements with anyone, i ask them to sign any agreement we have.
hyperbolical- Out of my four jobs, only half of them have had paperwork of any sort beyond tax forms. They just name the price and if I agree I show up. I continue to show up as long as I continue to get pay checks and am being treated decently. It's a very tenuous sort of thing, but even with a contract (unless it's the military), it is anyway. All a contract does is get the terms (pay, benefits, etc.) down in writing, and I've never had a problem getting what was promised to me even without one. A contract provides no job security for the employee, and no guarantee that the employee will ever show up for the employer. All a contract is anyway is your word, just on paper. It's the same thing, just easier to prove.
Rationalist--i guess i am more familiar with working in UK and Europe. Contract provides protection there for unfair dismissal etc which has legal implications. You can't be fired without just cause. Also contracts specify whether you will work indefinitely or for a set period like 1 year before contract may or may not be renewed.
Nonetheless what about other professions in the US--don't they have contracts? As long as architects here accept the status quo, I don't think anything will change in terms of better pay etc. And what about corporate firms here, do they offer contracts?
Working without a contract is kinda like living with someone without being married or marrying someone without a prenup...it might seem like just a piece of paper--- until the relationship breaks down...
the point about getting an offer in writing, and this should be obvious to everyone, is that unless you get the terms of your agreement in writing, it is easier for someone to "forget" about what was stipulated in the offer in the first place. you know with the workforce getting older and alzheimers being an issue. it's a contract in a sense, that it really lays out the terms of your employment; vacation, bonus, sick time, pay, exempt or non-exempt, etc....if no one here asks for that then you are begging to be screwed.
as for the non-compete thing, or other exit interview agreements, have a lawyer review it, and keep in mind, most are tied to severance...
happy job hunting you lucky graduates.
hyperbolic- in the US, contracts are "at-will", which means that the contract dissolves by the will of either party. The only thing really stipulated is the terms of that - i.e. "If employee does not show up for work, or call to inform of illness, for three consecutive days, employer shall consider employee to have quit." and things like that. All our contracts carry the at-will clause saying that either party can dissolve the contract for any or no reason. The only job that I can think of that does not have an at-will clause is the military, which signs contracts for set periods of time, with the choice to renew after that period, and does engage in binding contracts.
Oh, and I guess that's where we're seeing differently - I've lived with my boyfriend for 3 1/2 years now with no legal agreement. It's a matter of trust, in both cases. We've talked about what would happen if it weren't to work out, in terms of the apartment, furniture, etc. and I'm satisfied that neither of us is the type for big stormy violent scenes and drama, so that's enough. I reserve 'pieces of paper' for people I have reason not to trust.
ah, all this debating about the word "word." we're not talking about contracts, we're talking about integrity here. we were taught this in professional practice in school that there is a legal rock-paper-scissors when it comes to modes of contract communication that is thus:
lowest-to-highest
verbal
handwritten
typed
typed with typed revisions or notations
typed with handwritten notations (i.e., made directly before signing)
but it is all freaking beside the point. employment is at-will in the US unless there is a signed contract stating pay, terms of the contract (all contracts have a start date and an end date) and both parties signify their agreement. so by law, you can say, hey, Firm B, the other firm is closer to design center books so i'm going to work over there instead of with you.
there is a difference between what is LEGAL and what is ETHICAL here and that's where "one's word" comes in.
whoa. after this thread i have finally seen this issue from the employer's side and now i know why, even in the midst of a building boom, my bosses don't want to hire anyone, especially entry-level.
the thought that someone might accept an offer and then renege after they have been written into the outlook of the firm for the next few months or years is pretty scary, as is the thought that someone might take a job and then work for 12 weeks and then decide, "you know what, i don't get to do enough design here, i'm gonna go work for someone else who will perceive my brilliance in its correct light."
i have almost been out of school for five years and so now i can be an arsehole and state that: when i was given a entry-level job offer by the firm i wanted to work for i accepted it without reservation and negotiation. because i knew that, while i would contribute to the firm behind that offer, i would also be a bit of a liability, being so young and inexperienced. i felt honored and gratified that i was being offered $33,500 a year and made no objections. i got paid insurance, worked on one giant project literally from start to finish, and have been reaping the benefits of that firm's name on my resume ever since. i worked there two years and quit only because i was depressed because of the weather and homesick.
save the negotiations for when you've got a couple years under your belt. no matter how good you are in front of a computer, you don't yet know how a building goes together. i sure as hell don't.
i have a friend who runs a bar. they were having problems with their head chef. he was not doing the duties of a head chef nor was he even coming close. they fired him. the former chef sought unemployment. he was denied. he appealled, and each side told their story to the judge. even though the judge realized that the former chef was probably in the wrong, my friend never had him sign a piece of paper that outlined his job description. because my friend could not prove that the former chef was not doing his job, because there was no signed piece of paper outlining his job, the former chef was granted unemployment and thus my friend unemployment [tax or insurance???] went up.
i left a message and am still waiting for a response ...
lets look at this situatino from a different point of view...
what's the cut off line for the amount of money you have been offered after you have verbally accepted a job?
for me personally, 5k was over that line.
if you verbally accepted a job for 50k, and then another firm came back at you for 60k, there is no way you can all tell me that you would not call the firm, and inform that of another offer, or at least make it known to them. Ochona, "saving" negotiations" for what? At what age do I have the "green light" to negotiatiate? Why can't my 7 years of school and past experience allow me to do that? Do I have to be working in the field for 15 years before I have that privledge? I just don't agree with that statement. Business is Business. We all have situations in our life that warrant MONEY. Bills, vacations, loans, kids, family, etc. I think anyone who enters the business world has the right to negotiate, espeically when its done in a sincere, honest way. Its one thing if youre 12 years old shoveling snow. This is much much different. Just a thought.
dmc, you are right business is business and each person's situation is different. if you feel that you need to re-negotiate, given all of the factors, do it.
sometimes negotiations are better left for a later time. i'm not saying yours are. i have a friend who has recently been given new responsibilities at her job. she is filling the shoes of the bosses right-hand woman. she is fairly new to the firm but has quickly earned the trust of her boss. she has decided to wait a couple of months to prove how good she is and then speak to her boss. in this situation, by putting off negotiation, she may get more money than if she had negotiated earlier and then had to wait a year for another raise.
my first job in architecture back in the early 90s was for 25k. within 4 months of working there, i spoke with my boss about my role and responsibilities and i got a 25% raise.
personally, and i think you realize this, i would have called all other prospective employers that i had interviewed with and that i was interested in before taking this job.
to answer your quesiton though, 5k or less would not be a point of re-negotiation for me. 10k, might be, but i still don't know. there are so many factors that one must weigh when taking a job. money is one of them. i once took a job for 10k less because i hated where i was currently working and knew i would love my new job and learned much.
just a few more thoughts
at 1-2 years after you graduate.
sorry, my opinion has been formed by working with literally dozens of entry-level employees...and by being one. i used to chafe when i heard it, but entry-level employees in architecture really are as much a liability as an asset.
you may have worked summers or evenings during school, you may have taken lots of technical courses in school, but until you notch a continuous year of showing up at work at 8 or 9 every weekday and doing what other people tell you to do...or else you'll not get a bad grade or piss off a prof but get fired...then you're really green and new to the game. now, maybe you have extensive construction experience that you got before school. or maybe you've been a welder since you were 19. but even then.
you will make mistakes. you will miss deadlines. you will spend time on things that make absolutely zero impact on when and how your projects get done. you will surf archinect. you will not have any idea what your boss is talking about when she asks you to look up "part L" and call the borough of tower hamlets. you will obsess over the visual aspects of your drawings to the detriment of spending time to research how the curtain wall details you are drawing actually work.
this is not knocking you at all. we ALL do these kinds of things, especially early on. because we're still in school mode. i was, and sometimes i slip back into it.
your employer really IS making an investment in you. be assured, you will make him/her money, but not as much as you will in two to three years. you may know how to rock 3D, but unless you're working for firms that solely do schematic design, you will be relatively clueless on how to be an architect. it is why we don't get licenses right out of school.
the cut off line is zero. never ever ever accept any kind of job offer without thinking it over and talking to your fiancee (side note: congratulations) and without weighing your options and alternatives. do not accept an offer from any firm that you are not willing to spend at least one year at. and most certainly do not think about playing the field once you're married to a firm until you can afford an amicable divorce.
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