Thanks guys. I'm in the mindset of jump right now... I'm hanging on for now, but am going to be making a push to get my freelance business going again (it stalled out there when my "day" job became a night job too), and am on the lookout for any opportunities that would allow me to jump ship. Then, yeah, once I have something in hand I'll have no problem going to the owner and saying that while I love many of the people I work with and hate to let them down, the simple fact is that what I'm giving the firm and what I'm getting are not lining up. And once I get to that point it's unlikely that anyone will be able to talk me out of leaving, because I get very excited about new adventures and there's just a bad feeling around any situation where an employee has to issue an ultimatum like that. But until that day I've made it clear that I won't be doing ridiculous shit like that anymore, that I've got to start looking out for myself a little more here.
snook, part of the issue is that the business is doing better than ever. We're getting bigger clients and they're becoming repeaters. In fact the first project I work on here was the firm's first for one of the largest companies in the world, and we're just today sending them a proposal for our fourth project with them. This office isn't hurting.
If they're doing so well because you do amazing design for them, and you're helping to improve their image in clients' minds, then they can jolly well promote you and hire a helper to work under you - so that you aren't doing the workload of 2 people by yourself anymore.
copper, do you really want more money? Or do you want other things like less work/more respect/an assistant/more vacation? Oh, and haven't you learned that overachieving just makes people expect more of you??? ha ha, just kidding, but not really.
I was in a similar situation a few years ago, I had an agreement for a sizeable raise from the local principal that was shot down by a CFO in another city because it was out the range of what they considered an acceptable raise. I say average pay and average raise increases should warrant average efforts.
copper, weren't you previously in a job where the client carried on and on to your boss about how awesome you were and even said the words "give this person a raise" to your boss?
Straw,
those things would be nice, but the fact is that I actually need more money. My student loans are pretty substantial, and I live in an apartment that leaks in three different places AND has a peeping tom. I can't afford to move to any place that I could reasonably expect to be better. So I figure, if I'm going to be working all the time, at least they could make it so that I don't have to spend all night bailing out my sink because I live somewhere where the landlord doesn't fix things, or fear for my safety. I agree that better hours would get partway towards a solution because then I could at least freelance to fix this issue.
I'm definitely limiting hours in the meantime.
Donna, yup. Clients love me. They love my work. They respect the whole firm more because my work helps other peoples' work look better. I've accepted that people will not realize my value during interviews, because *everybody* says that they're a hard worker, quick learner, dedicated, team player, etc. so it takes me working for someone for a little before they realize that I work at a level beyond what my years of experience would suggest. In the past, this has resulted in quick and substantial pay increases as they realize they would have to hire multiple people to replace me if I left.
I will throw in this caveat: if I had started at a decent pay rate, the raise I did end up receiving would be considered a perfectly good one. I don't want to sit here and whine without some perspective on the matter, so I wanted to acknowledge that fact. It's just that it still leaves a solid five-digit gap between what I'm making and the average for the job I'm doing.
copper I really hope it gets sorted out, I know what it's like being taken advantage of like that. It really sucks. I agree with both Donna and Rusty - be prepared to pull back, and say so if asked. Tell them YOUR time is valuable, and beyond the regular working hours it is not being financially respected. Take those retrieved hours and pour them into copper grphx or whatever personal projects you desire. You obviously are talented enough to run that ship alone, it may be worth reminding yourself and them about that.
so I just had a flashback watching the original police academy. By far one of the best films of the 80s. It gave me a smile of going to the drive-in with my parents
straw this is actually kind of true..overachieving just makes people expect more of you??? ha ha, just kidding, but not really. as copper's example shows.
limiting hours is a good thing.
Also, tonight i went out for a nice dinner had a wonderful bottle of malbec etc. that is also a great way to deal with too many hours at work.
...and the Asymptote thread is gone. Not that I think it wasn't a wise decision to yank it, as the entire thread started on an anonymous rumor. But I thought we were having a pretty good discussion of issues beyond any one firm in particular!
so last night i watched the lovely bones. did anyone else see this? now i know this is a movie about a girl who has been murdered and she's still hovering around in some sort of in between world waiting for closure and closeure for her family etc before she goes off to heaven...so it is unrealistic right...but god i could not get over the ridonkulousness of the following....the murderer is some sort of carpenter type fellow who sits down one night and draws up a plan for this "pit" to lure the girl into. so the next scene shows the murderer breaking ground in some corn field in the middle of winter with an ordinary round pointed shovel and the finished product is a ten foot deep room that must be about 140 square feet. complete with a foot deep wood beam. and i'm like did no one say "have you ever tried to dig a freaking hole in the frozen ground in a corn field???" no one said, ah hang on. some architect/engineer/handyman/gardener is going to see this and say wtf? that is so impossible. and what'd he do with the dirt? stupid!
copper - Hang in there and take care of yourself, even if it means disappointing someone at work by not being amazing for once. :) Try to be more selfish, will ya?
I'm meticulously ignoring the old threads popping up because I don't want to make more work for the mods. I'll just uncontroversially discuss the weather: it's cold as a witch's tit here today.
Copper, your living situation does not sound safe. I would be looking for a different place to live. Just talking to some landlords you can find someone to accept you in a flexible contract mo to mo and no deposit.
it's a shame archinect was bullied into removing those threads regarding unpaid internships. this is the type of information people come to archinect to get and a real opportunity the site has to create meaningful change. unless exposed these starchitect a-holes will continue these same practices that make it difficult for the rest of us to practice.
Well, won I was really enjoying that conversation (even though its premise makes me furious), but I don't know if Archinect was "bullied" into removing it. Maybe Archinect felt ethically it wasn't a good idea to host a specific, personal accusation posted anonymously. I can understand wanting to err on the no-personal-attack side of that question.
But yes, this needs to be an ongoing conversation in which experienced (ahem) older members make it clear that firms employing unpaid labor are in the wrong. Isn't there a website devoted to ridiculing ads by design firms for unpaid interns? It has a saucy name, I think?
Donna your weather is headed our way....and it is going to be way to cold this weekend. Actually my snow shovel has taken up residence next to the kitchen door this week. We had another dumping of snow this morning and it is snowing again this evening. I was thinking about a Brazilian Holiday....sun and surf, but they have been having mud slides. So I guess I will stay here inside my head where dreams are fulfilling at the moment and they don't break the bank.
Think we will be spending alot of the weekend infront of the fireplace this weekend watching TV (movies). So we don't have to have the furnace running at full tilt. They are saying -7 Sunday night...
I think the big green head is more concerned about getting sued ... although he probably knows that the owner of a message board isn't legally responsible for comments posted by it's users - it still costs money to fight off frivolous lawsuits... and I'm sure someone who engages in questionable behavior in the first place has no qualms about initiating such a fight.
I can't help but feel like there was a better way for archinect to deal with that thread. Yes, it was based on hearsay - and I don't fault them for not wanting to perpetuate rumors - however, the discussion the un-proved accusation engendered was a supremely valuable one. Moreover it was characterized by a calm and principled debate that we haven't seen in a long time on archinect! AND it centered on an common issue with wide-reaching and long-lasting implications in our field. I am disappointed that that resource will be lost to future potential-unpaid-interns. I feel like archinect could have better dealt with the situation by removing the original link from the OP, and editing out the name of the company, and posting a "big green head" warning to the effect that "remember, this person's accusation is unproved and lacks corroboration."
I am rarely disappointed in the moderation of this site - this may only be the second time - but color me disappointed today.
IMO - if you're going to be posting something potentially damaging about a company do it the right way.
from the link:
3. Whistleblowing
Often there are legal shields to protect whistleblowers--people who expose the harmful activities of their employers for the public good. However, many people have the misconception that if you report the regulatory violations (of, say, toxic emissions limits) or illegal activities of your employer in a blog, you're protected. But that isn't the case. You need to report the problems to the appropriate regulatory or law enforcement bodies first. You can also complain to a manager at your company. But notify somebody in authority about the sludge your company is dumping in the wetlands first, then blog about it.
same holds true about accusing a certain firm of engaging in illegal activities...
it's a good point, toaster. it's just that i've learned so much good and bad about other architecture firms from this site, it's a shame to lose some of that information from our collective knowledge. that being said you really need to be able to filter the good information gleaned from experience from information from someone who has an ax to grind or simply resents a firm's success. i think the particular firm in question has had a long and spotty history on this site and i think probably deserves a lot of the negative comments they were receiving here. anyway...sorry to dwell on this here in tc where the mood is usually more positive.
It's OK, won. I don't care one way or another about any given firm, but I like having a place where we can discuss the law as it relates to unpaid work. I understand that particular thread needing to go away, but it is, like manta said, a valuable topic.
snook, it was -1 here last night and my poor pretty Ariana (the chicken) has frostbite on her comb despite the heat bulb in their coop. tomorrow she gets - they all get - some snuggle time in my warm arms while I smear vaseline on their combs. Stay in front of the fireplace with blankets, wife, and doggy!
I feel like archinect could have better dealt with the situation by removing the original link from the OP, and editing out the name of the company, and posting a "big green head" warning to the effect that "remember, this person's accusation is unproved and lacks corroboration."
That's exactly what I did. I wanted the (very important) discussion of unpaid labor to continue... but the only comments that followed were attacks on me, Archinect or the firm that was originally targeted. Me and my team simply had too much work to do today to spend moderating this discussion, so we removed it.
For the record, I don't support unpaid labor, which I communicated to the principal of the firm that was targeted, in a phone discussion this morning. We also don't allow libel. Whether or not the poster's comments were true or false, or libel, we can't host a discussion criticizing a person or company based on a number of anonymous postings. There's no way to validate these potentially damaging statements.
toasteroven - Thanks for posting that information. I hope everyone who supports the cause of ethical pay take effective action against it. Perhaps someone will create a website for anonymously outing every architect and firm who acts unethically. Archinect won't provide this service though.
i think interns should be paid, but then again they cannot expect too much since one year of undergrad archi-school is not enough to be particularly productive in the value-added category. it was a good discussion at least int he beginning. didn't see the silliness paul described at the end, thankfully.
another working weekend for me. this week my daughter asked my wife if we might ever have a weekend or evening at home where i wasn't working. worrying, cute, and frustrating all at once.
i thought it was better to be at home at least instead of in the office, but seems i need to work at not working so much. hah! at least i have just finished my last lecture slideset for the school year (which ends next month in japan-land). now only 2 time eating jobs to juggle. hurray ;-)
it was -12 F this morning when I left for work... and zero when I got home.
Donna, you are in the tropics compared to this, but sorry to hear the chickies got frost bit....
Paul, I missed the domino of postings that lead to the end of the thread - but I understand and support how you handled the situation based on the few posts on TC. It's a big world outside of our little playground called archinect and our posts do have ramifications in the real world. I certainly learned that the hard way.
speaking of 'unpaid' internships, I was approached by one of my undergrads requesting such an arrangement earlier this week. So I ran the request up the flag pole and heard back that within an educational/non-profit setting it's okay. Also found out that a U can hire students w/o the usual I-9 and work permits if they already have a student visa. Now I need to figure out what sort of research project he could do that would not add too much more stress/time obligation for me - I'm already at 130% this semester.
I completely understand Paul, and wouldn't want to spend my day moderating that kind of discussion either! w.r.t. the following:
That's exactly what I did. I wanted the (very important) discussion of unpaid labor to continue... but the only comments that followed were attacks on me, Archinect or the firm that was originally targeted.
I think I missed this part (I must have left the thread before your comments were posted), so I apologize for asserting that you didn't attempt to edit before removing. Thanks so much for coming on here and giving us a window into the decision-making! That transparency is in itself valuable. I appreciate your respect, and your thoughtful response. This interchange right here is an example of why I continue to find this site an extremely valuable resource to the profession. Thank you!
i was out all day. i thought the now closed thread was fringing on someones privacy. i don't approve architects using unpaid interns but i would not feel okay with someone in the internet unanimously discussing and outing my house/apartment/bedroom either.
on the other hand, i am pleased to see archinect discussion boards has became a place to watch and force to be reckoned with. though, we need to separate the potentially libelous personal vendetta with public issues.
wow that was fast - I only got to read the first couple of posts on that thread. And now it's gone. I totally agree with moderating it a little heavily, litigation aside - but it could easily be someone spouting off with little or no basis. To put it lightly Asymptote now leaves a bad taste in all of our mouths and I doubt they would venture anywhere close to archinect in the future - and we have little proof to justify it. Not to forgive them in anyway but when you make money from someone's free willing or unwilling labour it is called slavery.
Hi Paul... we never seem to tell you (enough) what a great job you and your team do. It isn't easy keeping a site full of rowdy architects and students happy (evidenced by the less than positive comments when you have to take a heavier hand in moderating). Your efforts are not missed on us. Thanks for keeping it rocking since 1997.
For my part, I don't really care about asymptote either way - I honestly didn't put a lot of stock in the factual basis of some random person's whining about them, and truly feel the thread reflected worse (or at least, just as badly) on the OP than it did on the firm. (Not only did s/he accept an unpaid position, but whined about it afterward - on a public board! with no factual proof!)
I enjoyed the discussion the original post sparked, but personally I reserve judgment about asymptote itself - no bad feeling in my mouth (unless the allegation ends up being proved). The profession itself encourages unpaid interns - there is a larger problem here than one firm who may or may not have hired unpaid labor. And that's the part I enjoyed in the discussion.
I *love* Donna's suggestion of questioning at lectures!! There are far too few questions at lectures in general anyway. Always a pet peeve of mine.
Also - for the record, techno - the OP did out the partners' real estate purchase - it was covered by a newspaper (the NY Post I think? can't remember) and there was an online article. (A pretty cheeky one, in fact.) So that part the OP should definitely not take heat for.
You made a good decision, Paul. Sorry if you took any uncomfortable heat.
I'm sorry the attempt at making the thread alive but not personally targeting anyone failed - I missed that part too, and the backlash - where were we all when that happened?! Funny.
And yes, the OP linked to a NYPost article about real estate. So the apartment and its purchasers were public knowledge. We could probably all find some fun info on the homes of ours stars if we dug into the RE pages! Cherith actually raised another very funny direction the discussion could have led - whether architects should live in homes of their own design, and why do we all seem to fall back to iconic furnishings rather than design them all ourselves? I know many, many architects do design it all themselves, and many more rely on the help of another designer - I think that's a fun discussion.
I think "the question" can be asked in a way that is initially at least non-confrontational. Like "Can you comment on the apparently widespread practice of unpaid internships and whether it's healthy for our profession?" with a follow-up of "Do you rely on unpaid interns?" if the speaker seems to skirt the topic.
i've seen many instances where architects don't design their own residence - forget gehry - i know, speaking for myself, i would be a ridiculous perfectionist and nothing would ever get done. plus, if you are not inclined to keeping deadlines in your personal life, imagine how difficult a home would be...
Well there used to be Arch Insider for the airing of employment-related greivances, but they seem to have let it go to hell. I do in general feel that a flatter payscale would be more beneficial to communities: not in a totally socialist, everyone gets the same sort of way, but there's no reason why one person in the office should make 10 times what another person in the office makes (unless the lower-paid person only works a few hours a week or something).
Beta, I've bee that way about designing my own identity. I can't really get going with it because I want it to do too much and say too much and I have too many different ideas in my head. The self-editing process is soooo much more difficult than the process of editing for a client!
On the other hand, it's been a very productive day: I entered two competitions and renewed my AIGA membership. Next up are the gym and attacking that identity problem.
congrats on getting out there copper. Good luck too. I too have some professional membership to renew, and dreading it. I have to pay the full amount before the end of March or be charged 30% more. Arghh. I've often wondered if other architects add pro-fees into client reimbursables - is it ethical? I seems like a case could be made for it.
Went on a site visit today for school. It's actually the land/house owned by the parents of a former classmate. It is a "touch the earth lightly" kind of place with a river, playful dogs and steps built into the river banks. It's for a rural project and bound to be fun.
I don't think anyone ads pro fees into reimbursables... they just feel the bite once and then remember to adjust their hourly fees accordingly so that they can afford it better next year. I just shelled out more than $400 in professional expenses in one day and it freaking hurts!
i don't think and have not seen anything tying this unpaid intern to his boss' personal wealth and purchasing the house. we don't know if their office is making profit or going on borrowed llc money. it may very well this place a downscale for them. at that point we have no idea. all i know is that paul probably wouldn't close the discussion if he was not presented very fair case from the architects' side.
the way i see it, at that point it is not a public information but libelous speculation on the intern's part. the public information only says these people bought this loft for two and a half million and here are the pictures. it does not connect the accounting of it to unpaid interns.
the real issue here is the young bourgeoisie flocking to hi profile starry offices and creating this culture. i really think these people should be connected to a lot of setbacks we have in architecture and held accountable and be put in their place by the people who are critical of the said old and tired elitist system of yesterday's architectural cliques.
it is time to overpass this culture. ignoring would be a good place to start.
don't buy the books, don't go lecture, don't talk about it in the parties and think they are avant garde. it is a dead place. yuck. catacomb of avant garde where it lays.
produce your own oppositions. produce your progressive change.
regardless of the slight sympathy for the architects involved, i am also glad that this is now very public, and the larger problem manifested itself in this gutter way.
Thread Central
Thanks guys. I'm in the mindset of jump right now... I'm hanging on for now, but am going to be making a push to get my freelance business going again (it stalled out there when my "day" job became a night job too), and am on the lookout for any opportunities that would allow me to jump ship. Then, yeah, once I have something in hand I'll have no problem going to the owner and saying that while I love many of the people I work with and hate to let them down, the simple fact is that what I'm giving the firm and what I'm getting are not lining up. And once I get to that point it's unlikely that anyone will be able to talk me out of leaving, because I get very excited about new adventures and there's just a bad feeling around any situation where an employee has to issue an ultimatum like that. But until that day I've made it clear that I won't be doing ridiculous shit like that anymore, that I've got to start looking out for myself a little more here.
snook, part of the issue is that the business is doing better than ever. We're getting bigger clients and they're becoming repeaters. In fact the first project I work on here was the firm's first for one of the largest companies in the world, and we're just today sending them a proposal for our fourth project with them. This office isn't hurting.
If they're doing so well because you do amazing design for them, and you're helping to improve their image in clients' minds, then they can jolly well promote you and hire a helper to work under you - so that you aren't doing the workload of 2 people by yourself anymore.
...or just take their client and start your own firm!!!
I would suggest this as a read for all those Professors and Teachers who frolic around here. It is a humorus read at best.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1456348000/ref=cm_sw_r_fa_jdp_h0znnb1SCBR6Z_p
copper, do you really want more money? Or do you want other things like less work/more respect/an assistant/more vacation? Oh, and haven't you learned that overachieving just makes people expect more of you??? ha ha, just kidding, but not really.
I was in a similar situation a few years ago, I had an agreement for a sizeable raise from the local principal that was shot down by a CFO in another city because it was out the range of what they considered an acceptable raise. I say average pay and average raise increases should warrant average efforts.
copper, that really sucks. There is one thing that you can do for yourself right now.
Limit your hours.
The most ambitious architects I know used to pull ridiculous hours until they burnt out. Now they all do >50h/w and couldn't be happier.
Save the all-nighters for when you open your own firm. That first difficult year.
Leave the office by 9. Force yourself. Then 8. And so on... Don't worry about the work. It will get done eventually.
copper, weren't you previously in a job where the client carried on and on to your boss about how awesome you were and even said the words "give this person a raise" to your boss?
Straw,
those things would be nice, but the fact is that I actually need more money. My student loans are pretty substantial, and I live in an apartment that leaks in three different places AND has a peeping tom. I can't afford to move to any place that I could reasonably expect to be better. So I figure, if I'm going to be working all the time, at least they could make it so that I don't have to spend all night bailing out my sink because I live somewhere where the landlord doesn't fix things, or fear for my safety. I agree that better hours would get partway towards a solution because then I could at least freelance to fix this issue.
I'm definitely limiting hours in the meantime.
Donna, yup. Clients love me. They love my work. They respect the whole firm more because my work helps other peoples' work look better. I've accepted that people will not realize my value during interviews, because *everybody* says that they're a hard worker, quick learner, dedicated, team player, etc. so it takes me working for someone for a little before they realize that I work at a level beyond what my years of experience would suggest. In the past, this has resulted in quick and substantial pay increases as they realize they would have to hire multiple people to replace me if I left.
I will throw in this caveat: if I had started at a decent pay rate, the raise I did end up receiving would be considered a perfectly good one. I don't want to sit here and whine without some perspective on the matter, so I wanted to acknowledge that fact. It's just that it still leaves a solid five-digit gap between what I'm making and the average for the job I'm doing.
copper I really hope it gets sorted out, I know what it's like being taken advantage of like that. It really sucks. I agree with both Donna and Rusty - be prepared to pull back, and say so if asked. Tell them YOUR time is valuable, and beyond the regular working hours it is not being financially respected. Take those retrieved hours and pour them into copper grphx or whatever personal projects you desire. You obviously are talented enough to run that ship alone, it may be worth reminding yourself and them about that.
so I just had a flashback watching the original police academy. By far one of the best films of the 80s. It gave me a smile of going to the drive-in with my parents
straw this is actually kind of true..overachieving just makes people expect more of you??? ha ha, just kidding, but not really. as copper's example shows.
limiting hours is a good thing.
Also, tonight i went out for a nice dinner had a wonderful bottle of malbec etc. that is also a great way to deal with too many hours at work.
the compensation issue though is separate!!
Night all
...and the Asymptote thread is gone. Not that I think it wasn't a wise decision to yank it, as the entire thread started on an anonymous rumor. But I thought we were having a pretty good discussion of issues beyond any one firm in particular!
I thought so too. I understand, though, that something like that could be detrimental to a firm's reputation and is based on one person's claim.
I guess we call could probably make similar claims, although not all of us took the offers to work for free (so no bitterness later on).
Ah, well, I am sure there will be new stuff to bitch about in no time! ;-)
so last night i watched the lovely bones. did anyone else see this? now i know this is a movie about a girl who has been murdered and she's still hovering around in some sort of in between world waiting for closure and closeure for her family etc before she goes off to heaven...so it is unrealistic right...but god i could not get over the ridonkulousness of the following....the murderer is some sort of carpenter type fellow who sits down one night and draws up a plan for this "pit" to lure the girl into. so the next scene shows the murderer breaking ground in some corn field in the middle of winter with an ordinary round pointed shovel and the finished product is a ten foot deep room that must be about 140 square feet. complete with a foot deep wood beam. and i'm like did no one say "have you ever tried to dig a freaking hole in the frozen ground in a corn field???" no one said, ah hang on. some architect/engineer/handyman/gardener is going to see this and say wtf? that is so impossible. and what'd he do with the dirt? stupid!
vado... you should be a film critic. I've never been inspired to watch that film until now. Thanks vado
looks like the mods are going to be busy today...
Indeed
vado, details, schmetails.
copper - Hang in there and take care of yourself, even if it means disappointing someone at work by not being amazing for once. :) Try to be more selfish, will ya?
I'm meticulously ignoring the old threads popping up because I don't want to make more work for the mods. I'll just uncontroversially discuss the weather: it's cold as a witch's tit here today.
hi guys!!!
Hope all is well. Work just seems to keep sprialing into bigger and bigger set of issues, lately.
Also, just wnated to put in a plug for my recently published Op-Ed
David, thanks for the thoughtful comment already. Glad to know i wasn't the only one who had a similar feeling...
I would love to hear additional thoughts/feedback from rest of you all regular TCer or not.
Copper, your living situation does not sound safe. I would be looking for a different place to live. Just talking to some landlords you can find someone to accept you in a flexible contract mo to mo and no deposit.
it's a shame archinect was bullied into removing those threads regarding unpaid internships. this is the type of information people come to archinect to get and a real opportunity the site has to create meaningful change. unless exposed these starchitect a-holes will continue these same practices that make it difficult for the rest of us to practice.
Well, won I was really enjoying that conversation (even though its premise makes me furious), but I don't know if Archinect was "bullied" into removing it. Maybe Archinect felt ethically it wasn't a good idea to host a specific, personal accusation posted anonymously. I can understand wanting to err on the no-personal-attack side of that question.
But yes, this needs to be an ongoing conversation in which experienced (ahem) older members make it clear that firms employing unpaid labor are in the wrong. Isn't there a website devoted to ridiculing ads by design firms for unpaid interns? It has a saucy name, I think?
Donna your weather is headed our way....and it is going to be way to cold this weekend. Actually my snow shovel has taken up residence next to the kitchen door this week. We had another dumping of snow this morning and it is snowing again this evening. I was thinking about a Brazilian Holiday....sun and surf, but they have been having mud slides. So I guess I will stay here inside my head where dreams are fulfilling at the moment and they don't break the bank.
Think we will be spending alot of the weekend infront of the fireplace this weekend watching TV (movies). So we don't have to have the furnace running at full tilt. They are saying -7 Sunday night...
I think the big green head is more concerned about getting sued ... although he probably knows that the owner of a message board isn't legally responsible for comments posted by it's users - it still costs money to fight off frivolous lawsuits... and I'm sure someone who engages in questionable behavior in the first place has no qualms about initiating such a fight.
I can't help but feel like there was a better way for archinect to deal with that thread. Yes, it was based on hearsay - and I don't fault them for not wanting to perpetuate rumors - however, the discussion the un-proved accusation engendered was a supremely valuable one. Moreover it was characterized by a calm and principled debate that we haven't seen in a long time on archinect! AND it centered on an common issue with wide-reaching and long-lasting implications in our field. I am disappointed that that resource will be lost to future potential-unpaid-interns. I feel like archinect could have better dealt with the situation by removing the original link from the OP, and editing out the name of the company, and posting a "big green head" warning to the effect that "remember, this person's accusation is unproved and lacks corroboration."
I am rarely disappointed in the moderation of this site - this may only be the second time - but color me disappointed today.
IMO - if you're going to be posting something potentially damaging about a company do it the right way.
from the link:
3. Whistleblowing
Often there are legal shields to protect whistleblowers--people who expose the harmful activities of their employers for the public good. However, many people have the misconception that if you report the regulatory violations (of, say, toxic emissions limits) or illegal activities of your employer in a blog, you're protected. But that isn't the case. You need to report the problems to the appropriate regulatory or law enforcement bodies first. You can also complain to a manager at your company. But notify somebody in authority about the sludge your company is dumping in the wetlands first, then blog about it.
same holds true about accusing a certain firm of engaging in illegal activities...
it's a good point, toaster. it's just that i've learned so much good and bad about other architecture firms from this site, it's a shame to lose some of that information from our collective knowledge. that being said you really need to be able to filter the good information gleaned from experience from information from someone who has an ax to grind or simply resents a firm's success. i think the particular firm in question has had a long and spotty history on this site and i think probably deserves a lot of the negative comments they were receiving here. anyway...sorry to dwell on this here in tc where the mood is usually more positive.
I couldn't help noticing that a certain firm's website went down for maintenance this evening. I wonder why....
It's OK, won. I don't care one way or another about any given firm, but I like having a place where we can discuss the law as it relates to unpaid work. I understand that particular thread needing to go away, but it is, like manta said, a valuable topic.
snook, it was -1 here last night and my poor pretty Ariana (the chicken) has frostbite on her comb despite the heat bulb in their coop. tomorrow she gets - they all get - some snuggle time in my warm arms while I smear vaseline on their combs. Stay in front of the fireplace with blankets, wife, and doggy!
mantaray,
I feel like archinect could have better dealt with the situation by removing the original link from the OP, and editing out the name of the company, and posting a "big green head" warning to the effect that "remember, this person's accusation is unproved and lacks corroboration."
That's exactly what I did. I wanted the (very important) discussion of unpaid labor to continue... but the only comments that followed were attacks on me, Archinect or the firm that was originally targeted. Me and my team simply had too much work to do today to spend moderating this discussion, so we removed it.
For the record, I don't support unpaid labor, which I communicated to the principal of the firm that was targeted, in a phone discussion this morning. We also don't allow libel. Whether or not the poster's comments were true or false, or libel, we can't host a discussion criticizing a person or company based on a number of anonymous postings. There's no way to validate these potentially damaging statements.
toasteroven - Thanks for posting that information. I hope everyone who supports the cause of ethical pay take effective action against it. Perhaps someone will create a website for anonymously outing every architect and firm who acts unethically. Archinect won't provide this service though.
sounds like you did all the right things paul.
i think interns should be paid, but then again they cannot expect too much since one year of undergrad archi-school is not enough to be particularly productive in the value-added category. it was a good discussion at least int he beginning. didn't see the silliness paul described at the end, thankfully.
another working weekend for me. this week my daughter asked my wife if we might ever have a weekend or evening at home where i wasn't working. worrying, cute, and frustrating all at once.
i thought it was better to be at home at least instead of in the office, but seems i need to work at not working so much. hah! at least i have just finished my last lecture slideset for the school year (which ends next month in japan-land). now only 2 time eating jobs to juggle. hurray ;-)
it was -12 F this morning when I left for work... and zero when I got home.
Donna, you are in the tropics compared to this, but sorry to hear the chickies got frost bit....
Paul, I missed the domino of postings that lead to the end of the thread - but I understand and support how you handled the situation based on the few posts on TC. It's a big world outside of our little playground called archinect and our posts do have ramifications in the real world. I certainly learned that the hard way.
speaking of 'unpaid' internships, I was approached by one of my undergrads requesting such an arrangement earlier this week. So I ran the request up the flag pole and heard back that within an educational/non-profit setting it's okay. Also found out that a U can hire students w/o the usual I-9 and work permits if they already have a student visa. Now I need to figure out what sort of research project he could do that would not add too much more stress/time obligation for me - I'm already at 130% this semester.
I completely understand Paul, and wouldn't want to spend my day moderating that kind of discussion either! w.r.t. the following:
That's exactly what I did. I wanted the (very important) discussion of unpaid labor to continue... but the only comments that followed were attacks on me, Archinect or the firm that was originally targeted.
I think I missed this part (I must have left the thread before your comments were posted), so I apologize for asserting that you didn't attempt to edit before removing. Thanks so much for coming on here and giving us a window into the decision-making! That transparency is in itself valuable. I appreciate your respect, and your thoughtful response. This interchange right here is an example of why I continue to find this site an extremely valuable resource to the profession. Thank you!
i was out all day. i thought the now closed thread was fringing on someones privacy. i don't approve architects using unpaid interns but i would not feel okay with someone in the internet unanimously discussing and outing my house/apartment/bedroom either.
on the other hand, i am pleased to see archinect discussion boards has became a place to watch and force to be reckoned with. though, we need to separate the potentially libelous personal vendetta with public issues.
wow that was fast - I only got to read the first couple of posts on that thread. And now it's gone. I totally agree with moderating it a little heavily, litigation aside - but it could easily be someone spouting off with little or no basis. To put it lightly Asymptote now leaves a bad taste in all of our mouths and I doubt they would venture anywhere close to archinect in the future - and we have little proof to justify it. Not to forgive them in anyway but when you make money from someone's free willing or unwilling labour it is called slavery.
Nam again wide and revealing post
Hi Paul... we never seem to tell you (enough) what a great job you and your team do. It isn't easy keeping a site full of rowdy architects and students happy (evidenced by the less than positive comments when you have to take a heavier hand in moderating). Your efforts are not missed on us. Thanks for keeping it rocking since 1997.
i am going to ask donna's question at lectures now. so damn simple.
i had a date this afternoon. cute, smart, adventurous as all get out...nice.
For my part, I don't really care about asymptote either way - I honestly didn't put a lot of stock in the factual basis of some random person's whining about them, and truly feel the thread reflected worse (or at least, just as badly) on the OP than it did on the firm. (Not only did s/he accept an unpaid position, but whined about it afterward - on a public board! with no factual proof!)
I enjoyed the discussion the original post sparked, but personally I reserve judgment about asymptote itself - no bad feeling in my mouth (unless the allegation ends up being proved). The profession itself encourages unpaid interns - there is a larger problem here than one firm who may or may not have hired unpaid labor. And that's the part I enjoyed in the discussion.
I *love* Donna's suggestion of questioning at lectures!! There are far too few questions at lectures in general anyway. Always a pet peeve of mine.
Also - for the record, techno - the OP did out the partners' real estate purchase - it was covered by a newspaper (the NY Post I think? can't remember) and there was an online article. (A pretty cheeky one, in fact.) So that part the OP should definitely not take heat for.
"someone in the internet unanimously discussing and outing my house/apartment/bedroom either"
Actually, that's public information.
You made a good decision, Paul. Sorry if you took any uncomfortable heat.
I'm sorry the attempt at making the thread alive but not personally targeting anyone failed - I missed that part too, and the backlash - where were we all when that happened?! Funny.
And yes, the OP linked to a NYPost article about real estate. So the apartment and its purchasers were public knowledge. We could probably all find some fun info on the homes of ours stars if we dug into the RE pages! Cherith actually raised another very funny direction the discussion could have led - whether architects should live in homes of their own design, and why do we all seem to fall back to iconic furnishings rather than design them all ourselves? I know many, many architects do design it all themselves, and many more rely on the help of another designer - I think that's a fun discussion.
I think "the question" can be asked in a way that is initially at least non-confrontational. Like "Can you comment on the apparently widespread practice of unpaid internships and whether it's healthy for our profession?" with a follow-up of "Do you rely on unpaid interns?" if the speaker seems to skirt the topic.
well maybe archinect needs a little feature/forum about intern compensation. what's right what's wrong what's acceptable and what isn't.
i've seen many instances where architects don't design their own residence - forget gehry - i know, speaking for myself, i would be a ridiculous perfectionist and nothing would ever get done. plus, if you are not inclined to keeping deadlines in your personal life, imagine how difficult a home would be...
Isn't it a rumor that Mr. Koolhaas' London residence is quite an elaborate Victorian get up?
Well there used to be Arch Insider for the airing of employment-related greivances, but they seem to have let it go to hell. I do in general feel that a flatter payscale would be more beneficial to communities: not in a totally socialist, everyone gets the same sort of way, but there's no reason why one person in the office should make 10 times what another person in the office makes (unless the lower-paid person only works a few hours a week or something).
Beta, I've bee that way about designing my own identity. I can't really get going with it because I want it to do too much and say too much and I have too many different ideas in my head. The self-editing process is soooo much more difficult than the process of editing for a client!
On the other hand, it's been a very productive day: I entered two competitions and renewed my AIGA membership. Next up are the gym and attacking that identity problem.
congrats on getting out there copper. Good luck too. I too have some professional membership to renew, and dreading it. I have to pay the full amount before the end of March or be charged 30% more. Arghh. I've often wondered if other architects add pro-fees into client reimbursables - is it ethical? I seems like a case could be made for it.
Went on a site visit today for school. It's actually the land/house owned by the parents of a former classmate. It is a "touch the earth lightly" kind of place with a river, playful dogs and steps built into the river banks. It's for a rural project and bound to be fun.
I don't think anyone ads pro fees into reimbursables... they just feel the bite once and then remember to adjust their hourly fees accordingly so that they can afford it better next year. I just shelled out more than $400 in professional expenses in one day and it freaking hurts!
i don't think and have not seen anything tying this unpaid intern to his boss' personal wealth and purchasing the house. we don't know if their office is making profit or going on borrowed llc money. it may very well this place a downscale for them. at that point we have no idea. all i know is that paul probably wouldn't close the discussion if he was not presented very fair case from the architects' side.
the way i see it, at that point it is not a public information but libelous speculation on the intern's part. the public information only says these people bought this loft for two and a half million and here are the pictures. it does not connect the accounting of it to unpaid interns.
the real issue here is the young bourgeoisie flocking to hi profile starry offices and creating this culture. i really think these people should be connected to a lot of setbacks we have in architecture and held accountable and be put in their place by the people who are critical of the said old and tired elitist system of yesterday's architectural cliques.
it is time to overpass this culture. ignoring would be a good place to start.
don't buy the books, don't go lecture, don't talk about it in the parties and think they are avant garde. it is a dead place. yuck. catacomb of avant garde where it lays.
produce your own oppositions. produce your progressive change.
regardless of the slight sympathy for the architects involved, i am also glad that this is now very public, and the larger problem manifested itself in this gutter way.
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