jumpy, i'm also waiting on my FA from UT-A. I've been checking online.


+asu via website.
"You should receive your official admission letter in the mail within 2 weeks. The letter will identify any deficiencies or provisions associated with your admission."
dear asu, today is the 8th and i'm tired of waiting.

tgv11 ... who/where do you get your info? are you a student in one of these schools?

Smokety Mc Smoke Smoke

I’m a grad from Bartlett and currently live and work in London. I’m in NYC right now. I had the option to go to both Yale and the GSD (did not apply to Princeton) and declined both offers. I did of course base my decision partially on location (GSD vs. Bartlett). To this day, I’m still intrigued by the annual Princeton-Yale-GSD open house/rat race/slug fest

I regularly travel to the NYC tri-state area and was at YSOA this fall…it was actually the faculty and some of the staff members who told me about the building’s air and mechanical problems after I asked about the big open lot on the north side of the school (in turn they told me about the addition, renovation etc.). Also, I know a couple of students from all three US schools. The Yalies I know attest to the school’s horrible air quality (and I believe even Stern mentioned at YSOA's open house this week that the school's systems are shot and that the faculty is always complaining about the building’s air quality).

Don’t get me wrong, I think YSOA is a strong school and New Haven is a neat little city, but NOT AS STRONG as GSD/Cambridge-Boston, Princeton/NYC-Philly, UCLA/SoCAL, Columbia/NYC, or even Cornell/Upstate-NYC. Maybe Yale should go the Cornell route and build a new interdisciplinary center (i.e. second home) in NYC.

Has anyone that applied to Cincy gotten a rejection letter? I know their acknowledgement of admission was a few days ago, but seriously... i never got a letter saying I got in OR got rejected.

Anyone else in the same boat?

Wow, AP, I would call them. That's crazy. They said that the mail has not been good to them this year, but I got an e-mail from them checking to make sure I got their letter. Did you get the earlier confirmation that all your materials arrived?

Yeah I got the postcard and everything. No email or regular mail..... not too optimistic

tgv11: "I know the size and scope of all three....and know each program has certain strengths and weaknesses...but a series of external forces will and have played a major role in each school's success.

---------

The problem with this statement is, it isn't just about strengths and weaknesses. It's about real differences whose merits are subjective. I've heard people on this board say "why would anyone go to the GSD (or any other school) when..." and they've made as little sense. You seem to think these "external forces" (the move/HVAC and the location) tip the scales, so to speak, but I can't see how they'd outweigh the respective characters of each program. Harvard I think has a clear location advantage, but Princeton isn't "in" NY or Philly any more than New Haven is "in" NY, Providence, or even Boston. Yes it's a bit closer, but it's still way more than a casual outing, plus Princeton, NJ itself is far less architecturally interesting than New Haven. Gund Hall's air systems are awful as well, especially in the studio space. The transitional parts of the move will take place in the summers, and it's a temporary setback that will make the building much better in the end.

In short, if everyone goes to the GSD or Princeton over Yale simply because of those two "external factors," as you're suggesting they do, there are going to be a lot of unhappy students. They're good points to bring up, but they don't merit a "Why would ANYONE..." question for any school, let alone Yale.

odp1

Gee, let me guess, you’re a Yalie.

Sorry if I hit a nerve.

Most applicants do make their decisions based on a variety of issues, including location and working conditions. Most applicants look beyond the mix of candor and B.S. schools put out during their open houses and look at the big picture (degree, work opportunities, connections, resources, campus environment, daily tasks, finances, travel, rent, life after grad school, etc.)

So let me dissect your recent post

odp1: “The problem with this statement is, it isn't just about strengths and weaknesses. It's about real differences whose merits are subjective”

You more or less said the same thing using different words

odp1: “I've heard people on this board say "why would anyone go to the GSD (or any other school) when..." and they've made as little sense. You seem to think these "external forces" (the move/HVAC and the location) tip the scales, so to speak, but I can't see how they'd outweigh the respective characters of each program”

They sometimes do (see above)

odp1: "Harvard I think has a clear location advantage, but Princeton isn't "in" NY or Philly any more than New Haven is "in" NY, Providence, or even Boston. Yes it's a bit closer, but it's still way more than a casual outing, plus Princeton, NJ itself is far less architecturally interesting than New Haven”

I can visit New Haven to see the five architecturally interesting buildings in the city. I don’t have to live there to enjoy them. Princeton is a nice college town between Philly and NYC, Yale is in a struggling crime-riddled small city along I-95…big difference. Even in the UK, we know about the new stories where Yale students are sometimes shot and mugged by the locals…wonderful

odp1: “Gund Hall's air systems are awful as well, especially in the studio space”

Good thing Gund is one huge studio and the air isn’t stagnant. Big difference if you’re comparing Gund to YSOA. When Yale's A+A Library is an unbearable sauna because the mech units are on the fritz, the library is packed with buzzing fans, and the school’s paper resources are damaged as a result… it goes way beyond “bad air systems”

odp1: “The transitional parts of the move will take place in the summers, and it's a temporary setback that will make the building much better in the end”

Let’s hope so. Until then, applicants should STEER CLEAR of YSOA

odp1: "In short, if everyone goes to the GSD or Princeton over Yale simply because of those two "external factors," as you're suggesting they do",

I’m not, however they're two big factors in a much larger process

odp1: "there are going to be a lot of unhappy students."

If you say so


odp1: "They're good points to bring up, but they don't merit a "Why would ANYONE..." question for any school, let alone Yale."

It all depends on the applicant…and in the end it usually comes down to Cambridge-Boston vs. New Haven

Switcheroo et al...
You guys are going to have to try extra hard to persuade me...I just got back from Wash U's open house and I must say I am impressed. I am ticked (to say the least) with Ga Tech....the application process did not go smoothly (problems on their end that they blamed me for and said I was supposed to fix...wtf?), they refuse to send anything WHATSOEVER to my mailing address (YES, I have checked their own Ga Tech system...my mailing addy is in NY, my permanent addy is in MD, yet nothing comes to NY, it all goes to MD), and just the other day I got a phone call from my dad saying he received a letter from Ga Tech saying that my financial aid application is incomplete b/c I have not completed the stafford loan entrance counseling. Again, WTF? WHY am I being asked to do the entrance counseling before I even know how much money I am going to be borrowing? I have seen NOTHING that gives a breakdown of what I owe them for the summer, yet I am supposed to start classes on May 15? I can't believe I am having so many problems and I haven't even started classes yet! Right now they have dropped to the bottom of my list, esp since there is no guarantee that my tuition will drop to in state levels for years 2 & 3. I just dont think I can bank on something that has no guarantee.

tgv11 - "Gee, let me guess, you’re a Yalie."

No, but I very well could be if I decide to go there, which is probably the most likely scenario. You've yet to make my interest in the school waver (versus GSD, MIT, Columbia) based on your reasoning alone, although the adamancy of your extreme stance is what intrigues me. (i.e., I don't want to be too quick to rule you out as a nutcase.)

"It all depends on the applicant…and in the end it usually comes down to Cambridge-Boston vs. New Haven"

I can't believe you really know anything about any schools, especially the three we've been talking about, if you think in the end it usually comes down to location. It's even hard to think of any two schools in the US where the deciding factor would be location. You're in studio for so much of the time anyway. (If they're in different countries, I could understand.) What you're saying is that when you look for a school, you say, "I want the indoor air to be nice and the location to either be a safe town or large city. If the faculty, program, philosophy, curriculum, reputation, and size are also a good fit, then that's just gravy"--either that, or "the faculty, program, philosophy, curriculum, reputation, and size at every school are so similar no matter where you go." I could understand if you felt that location was very important, but you're not just saying that; you're not even just saying that it's the most important. You're basically saying that it TRUMPS all else, i.e., is more important than all the others combined. And you're not just saying that's YOUR personal preference, but that it's everyone's preference.

odp 1

Yikes

Breath for a second

The problem is, I know too much about each program (both the negatives and positives) . There's always the standard official school statement that each program puts out, and then there's the history, moral, and reaction in the studios. I side with the second. I've been a frequent critic at Yale, so thanks for insulting me about not knowing your top school. In the end, what the school says to prospective applicants is very different than what actually happens in the studios/reviews next fall, etc. (You should always try to visit a school before or after their open house...that's the "real" school....and in your case, you should have talked to the students...not the ones they prop up in front of everyone....but the ones working in the studios)

YOU'RE READING TOO MUCH INTO EACH SCHOOL'S STATEMENTS, and I'm telling you it all comes down to the basics in the end (two of which are location and working environment). And when it comes down to simple work opportunities, GSD once again beats Yale because of LOCATION.

tgv11 -

"Even in the UK, we know about the new stories where Yale students are sometimes shot and mugged by the locals…wonderful"

um... you've been misinformed. there are robberies sure, like in any urban school, but not on campus, and trust me, no yale students are getting shot.

even in the UK, there is groundless gossip

dillup

http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=29555

Damn the Yale Daily News and their gossip

More Baseless Gossip

re the move at YSOA: The plan is to move the architecture students into the new sculpture building once it's done, and then build the library next to the A+A while the renovation's going on. I'm not sure what Stern told everybody at the open house, but I live across the street from the site for sculpture school and they just broke ground last week. Anyone ever hear of a university completing a 55,000 sf, four story building in less than 15 months? When I was first year in 2003 they told us that we'd spend our last year in new space, and it didn't happen. It's taken 3 years just to renovate Kahn's Art Gallery, I don't think YSOA is going anywhere for the foreseeable future.

re muggings etc.: It's surprising because New Haven looks deceptively small and safe. Nobody blinks if some Penn, GSD, or Columbia student gets mugged in Philly, Boston, or NYC, but it is a big deal when it happens here. Safety wise, it is comparable to a big city.

sevensixfire

The sculpture building is suppose to be a fast-track design build project........YSOA needs to leave ASAP

And you're right regarding New Haven's crime. Its comparable to America's big cities...and each crime is magnified in NH. The uptick in violence in and around the campus is pretty disturbing though (in contrast, if you're a GSAPP student and you decide to walk on Lenox at night...you're asking to be mugged)

tgv11

You do realize that all your post is saying is "Trust me, I know"?

Now don't get me wrong, your credentials are fine, but you have yet to show the benefit of your credentials by offering REASONS as to why location matters the most. What you're saying flies in the face of others I've talked to at various schools and firms, many with even better credentials than you, and not just during the open houses as you assumed. (I'm not talking about the "Go to the GSD over Yale" part, because I've heard that before, as well as the reverse; I'm talking about WHY you're recommending the GSD over Yale.)

If it really just boils down to location, are you saying that if YSOA and GSD swapped places (and YSOA's HVAC started working again), all of a sudden the YSOA would be the better choice for everyone?

If location matters so much, does that make any school in NYC better than any school in Boston, and any Boston school better than any New Haven school? Should I go to the Boston Architectural Center instead of Yale? I realize you never explicitly made that claim, but without qualifying your "it boils down to location" statement, that's really what you're saying.

Believe me, since I'm in the middle of making this decision, I want to value your opinion. And like I said, I'm not dismissing you yet because what you're saying might be important. But without some kind of explanation as to why location matters so much, I can't take you seriously. For all I know you have some personal vendetta against the school. "You might get mugged or shot" is a decent reason, but not one unique to Yale. "You might get mugged or shot, AND the city isn't even valuable otherwise" is hardly any better unless you can explain why that should be more important than the characters of the actual schools. Or why the characters of the actual schools are so similar that they're negligible.

Tenex..
That is to bad you had problems with the application process and such. However, I also recieved notice that half of my application was missing, yet for me Ga Tech committie seemed very reseptive. They called me late one saturday evening to tell me that my application materials were found, after I called the day before frantically trying to figure out where my app materials went. Anyway, are you considering Wash U over Tulane? Good luck with your decision.

tgv11

I live in Somerville......10minute walk from the GSD. My roomate, as well as most of my friends, is a student at the GSD. I have heard from everyone of them on more than one occasion that they HATE Gund Hall. If you have visited you have noticed the little shanty towns created by students on the "trays." Many have plastic roofs, not just to be cute, but to keep all the leaking water from getting on their models and drawings. If you have ever visted in the winter you have noticed that many students wear gloves in the building.........because it is too cold too draw without them. Finally, if you have ever visted the school, granted it is not very often, when it is warm out, you have noticed how sweaty everyone is. The GSD is a great program, but not because of Gund Hall. That is truely laughable.

asauer...
Yes, I am considering Wash U over Ga Tech...I wont know for sure until after I visit Tech

cotd

Ah Somerville, home of the Safdie Ivy Box...........

True, Gund has its problems, but you're exaggeratting a little bit.. It does get cold and hot in Gund (and sometimes leaks, but sometimes the water is actually dripping from another tray) Its typical of most schools (UCL's facilities weren't magnificent either) but nothing compares to YSOA's problems.

Let me get this post out to odp1 before my flight leaves

Ok odp1,

I’ll quickly run through both schools, buildings, and cities. I remember being in the same position you’re in…… so here it goes.

School

The GSD has a strong structure/lineup of degrees (Architecture, Urban Planning, Landscape Arch, etc.) (Like Bartlett). Students work within their “concentrations” and can cross over into another discipline while still maintaining a “foundation” of skills that are vital after grad school. GSD students usually have a much easier time finding work nationwide and overseas because they have this strong set of skills (70% to 80% of which can be applied in the professional realm) YSOA has been and still is criticized for not having a “structure” Architecture, Industrial Design, Landscape Arch, New Urbanism is all thrown into one program. At YSOA, instead of creating a foundation, you jump from one extreme to the next (you might have a New Urbanism or Landscape Arch studio one semester and then a highly abstract Lynn/Hadid style studio the next semester) You’re simply at the mercy of the professors (and what they want to do) until you graduate. Even Stern states frequently ….you might be praised one year and then fail miserably the next year….which does wonders for your moral and stress levels. And finally, at the end you have a sloppy hodge podge of experience and skill (30% to 40% of which can be applied to whatever job you pick up)

Advantage: GSD

Building

The Gund is a massive set of trays that can sometimes be jarring, however when you slip under the trays the building does have some sense of privacy. Gund annually turns into a shanty town. The building does have its problems, but nothing comparable to YSOA’s problems. The one major negative however with this setup is that if you don’t speak up or stand out; you will be lost in the mix. Rudolph’s building does follow an open plan format and does have a nice public/private feeling too, however portions of the building are divided into "disconneted" compartments. In addition, Rudolph’s building is in bad shape (I won’t reiterate) and the school’s upcoming move will have an effect on how productive a student can be at the school.

Advantage: Both Are Losers, But YSOA is worse

City

The GSD is within a very strong collegiate setting alongside the edge of a world-class city. The opportunities and resources around the school are plentiful (GSD’s Harvard-Cambridge setting is twice as strong as BAC’s Back Bay setting or say Columbia’s Morningside setting). Numerous strong architectural projects, urban schemes, and high-tech developments are occuring in the community. If you need supplies, you have your choice of Charrette, Pearl, and numerous other outlets in the area. In addition, the GSD has a strong sense of duality with MIT….. both schools feed off one another (just like Bartlett/AA in London, Columbia/Parsons/Cooper in NYC, and UCLA/SCI-ARC in LA…heck even RISD/Brown in Providence) And with another world-renowned school in the same town, you have twice the lectures, twice the events, twice the innovation, twice the interaction. YSOA is alone in a town with limited resources and pull. The town has one major art and architecture supplier… Hull’s, and if something isn’t at Hull’s,…good luck finding it. Charrette New Haven recently closed down and Utrecht (which recently opened up near the green) closed down this year. If you can’t find what you need on Chapel Street, you’re sunk….and dare I say, need to use a car to “get around” ….which leads me to my last point…the biggest thing to hit New Haven in the last 20 years is the opening of an IKEA box…enough said.

Advantage: GSD



Please, please odp1, do what you think is right, but I hope this post helps you. I have always been someone who “tells it like it is” and it’s the reason why I’ve been successful in my career. So here you go, I have to catch my flight. Good Luck

tgv11

"The GSD has a strong structure/lineup of degrees (Architecture, Urban Planning, Landscape Arch, etc.) (Like Bartlett). Students work within their “concentrations” and can cross over into another discipline while still maintaining a “foundation” of skills that are vital after grad school. GSD students usually have a much easier time finding work nationwide and overseas because they have this strong set of skills (70% to 80% of which can be applied in the professional realm) YSOA has been and still is criticized for not having a “structure” Architecture, Industrial Design, Landscape Arch, New Urbanism is all thrown into one program. At YSOA, instead of creating a foundation, you jump from one extreme to the next (you might have a New Urbanism or Landscape Arch studio one semester and then a highly abstract Lynn/Hadid style studio the next semester) You’re simply at the mercy of the professors (and what they want to do) until you graduate. Even Stern states frequently ….you might be praised one year and then fail miserably the next year….which does wonders for your moral and stress levels. And finally, at the end you have a sloppy hodge podge of experience and skill (30% to 40% of which can be applied to whatever job you pick up)"

This is, frankly, idiotic. 70%-80% vs. 30%-40%.........where did you get these numbers (your ass, to be sure). Both schools have options studios......the student decides which studios they want. At either school you may shine one semester and fall on your ass the next.....and what is wrong with that. Being able to learn many types of process or approach should is a strength, and both schools have it.

odp1.....I think everyone should take advice on this post with a grain of salt, but some arguments seem to warrant even less. I do think the MIT link is a huge advantage.........but picking a school based on how many art supply stores are in proximity (who uses that as an argument for their school). Follow your gut, both are great schools and will give you a well rounded education.........which should be seen as a positive.

tgv11

Thanks. That post was better than your others, but I'll still disagree with many points.

Regarding the school, the "strong set of skills" the GSD provides also means you have to learn it one way, their way. Maybe not literally "one" but it's not pluralistic there. That can be both good and bad. In my opinion, for my tastes, it's bad. I hardly think the difference really translates into a severe disparity in employability, if any, and there are two sides to that coin anyway: learning the way I want to is more important to me than being recognized by potential employers as a certain kind of highly effective tool. I don't think either can claim an "advantage" in terms of overall program and philosophy, but for me I prefer Yale's, and the difference is important to me.

As for the buildings, I'm not convinced either way. The move is a minus obviously, and if what you say is true, YSOA's mechanical systems are in even worse shape. But Yale's has more natural light (Gund's sloping/stairstep glass lets in a surprisingly low amount) and better equipment--you even get your own late-model computer.

I agree wholeheartedly with location, I just don't place as much importance on it as I do program and culture. It's nice having MIT around, but from talking to people at the GSD it doesn't seem like a big factor. I'd rather just go to MIT anyway, and take classes at the GSD (but I doubt I even would).

It sounds like going to the GSD over Yale is the clear choice for you, and that's fine, but I'm not convinced even in the slightest that your assessment is universal. Thus I still see your "Why would ANYONE go to YSOA over..." as a deeply flawed statement.

cotd

Thanks, yeah. I generally agree with your assessment of tgv11's assessment. What he (or she) is saying isn't entirely worthless, but there are a lot of non-points in there as well.

This discussion is great. Too bad I already sent Stern my deposit because it almost makes me question my decision to go to Yale...

Well, not really. Maybe I'll see you around next fall, opd1. Just remember to stock up on body armor, oxygen tanks, and art supplies before you come.

I'm heading to the GSD. Although tgv's wacked-out of his skull...he's kinda right about the location thing. odp1 Hope you make the right decision. Erasmus, you can always double-down.

Hey everyone who has decided which school they're going to and for the sake of those of us who've been wait-listed, posted their responses to those schools that they're declining,

I love you with all my heart!
;)

Good luck to all!!

I declined Yale (too many weaknesses, move a big negative)
I declined Columbia (not as strong as the GSD)

I declined Yale and Rice............

I am going to MIT!!!!!!!!

cotd - where did you do your undergrad?

University of Texas at Arlington..............graduated in '99.......long long time ago

I attended the open house at MIT and sat with Dean Stern Fri. Both are unique opportunities, but as for an all encompassing education, I believe Yale is a better mechanism for me to position myself in the profession.

MIT offered more money and less time, but I was uncomfortable in the "smithsonian" like atmosphere of 77 Mass. Ave. It also seemed as though the architecture department was tucked up in a wing out of view...this somewhat aggitated me. The students are extremely hospitable, but I felt like they are engineers and mathematicians doing arch. Parametrics and algorithyms excited me but made me feel like a middle man and not the designer.

Yale has an outdated, but beautiful, Paul Rudolph creation...an identity on campus. The campus is beautiful and students seem more social...affable. The work was unique and engaging and I like the building project along with multifarious reasons not to be mentioned. However, the Dean told me I would not get as much money as MIT because if you want to work out of school MIT is not the best scenario to learn architecture. Not to take away from the school, MIT students are badasses and highly intelligent; the intelligence seems better suited to teach, as history has shown (Sara Whitting, professors at both Yale and the GSD). This is from his mouth, and I told him I was not interested in the BS salesmanship.

Truth is, congrats to any and all who are accepted into any of these programs mentioned. The top schools are not differentiated among firms, they know what you do at each of them! They also do NOT care about starchitects teaching you, they know they show up twice and the rest is up to you. The top schools have unique opportunities to affect the trajectory with which you move on the corporate ladder. This is where the merit and guts of the programs become a testament to your ideology entering grad school.

Keep in mind the trend now is to get students with 5 yr B. Arch degrees because they can be paid less due to less debt! How will you in your choosen program become a invaluable commodity to a firm? Ask yourself this little question before signing your deposit over!

parallel38

When you say Columbia is "not as strong" as the GSD, how so? I feel like the faculty at Columbia is stronger, as well as the location (if you care about that). GSD I think has a slightly stronger brand name, and prepares you extremely well in a conventional way, but if that doesn't sit well with you then you're molding yourself to the past rather than beginning to establish your own future identity in design. If it does, then by all means the GSD is as good as it gets.

pmic,

I can relate to your decision, but in all honesty, you probably will have a better experience at MIT (criss-cross between MIT and the GSD) You're right, you were given a little BS by Stern, by chance, did you talk to the students while you were there? By the way, how was your Yale application "mishandled"?

odp1

After looking at your posts, it seems like you just love to pick fights with anyone who actually makes a decision (or makes a point). Here's my advice, go to the GSD, you won't be dissapointed

asauer...whoops, I didn't answer your q, I am considering Wash U over Tulane but that's only b/c I have visited Wash U and haven't yet been to Tulane...That could all change next week after I visit. Then again, I still have yet to visit ASU...which will be the week after. I am still very confused at this point, but a little less confused than I was last week (before the Wash U open house), if this makes any sense!

i have declined yale, penn, and uva. i think i'm going to mit instead of berkeley, but i'm going to wait a couple more days to make my decision.

awol

If it is MIT, I will see you in the Fall.

Whats holding up your decision?

i've been at mit for 5 years already (i will have an sb and mcp in planning) and i worry not that i've been there too long, but that other people will think i've been there too long. i kind of thought i'd end up at mit, but i just wanted to make sure. my tentative conclusion after visiting berkeley is that i would like to live in san francisco at some point, but i'd rather stay in cambridge for architecture school. i also really enjoy that most of my friends are neither planners nor architects - i don't want to be surrounded just by architects.

awol-

what did you think of the open house at berkeley?

i was a little taken aback at how disorganized it all felt. i came late because i was coming from boston after having gone to the yale open house, and i was trying to find where the people were...i asked at the dean's office and they didn't know, and the grad students' office was closed since sara mccarthy was downstairs...anyway, i stopped a random person i saw with a nametag on and she pointed me in the right direction. (i admit i was grumpy because of all of the traveling.)

i liked some of the work i saw - especially lisa iwamoto's studio stuff - but i was seriously disturbed by the lack of faculty around. did i just miss them all? i also wanted more people to be in studio. i would have liked to have seen students in pinups to see how they're run, and how the students talk about their work. but the student work that was up in the rooms during the tour was much, much better than what i'd seen at yale - more creative and personal.

even after visiting, i feel that i just don't have a good idea of what the program is.

parallel38 - "After looking at your posts, it seems like you just love to pick fights with anyone who actually makes a decision (or makes a point). Here's my advice, go to the GSD, you won't be dissapointed"

----------

Had you actually read my posts and those I was responding to, you'd comprehend that I was "picking a fight" with someone who was making not just a decision. but a decision FOR ME (and others in my position, including you). Obviously not enforcing the decision, because that's impossible, but making it nonetheless. In your case, I was responding to the lack of information in your statement. My intention was to elicit clarification, which you apparently interpreted as hostile. If for whatever reason you don't want to elaborate, that's fine, but there's little point in presenting an opinion as vague as labeling something "strong" or "weak" and leaving it at that.

But I'll take your advice in stride, even though "trust me, you won't be disappointed" by itself isn't very reassuring.

awol-

i wondered the same thing, about the lack of students in studio, i learned that they only have studio on mon+wed, not the the normal mon+wed+fri

so why was their open house on friday????

good question. i was annoyed at first like you, but i think when push comes to shove you need to try and look past all that stuff in order to evaluate the program. which i thought spoke for itself.

i guess i consider the open house to be a good indicator of the way the department works. for example, my current department does a great job with the open house - almost all of the faculty are available to talk to you, and the students turn out en masse...it speaks to how much the faculty cares about the students and their input in shaping the program.

well if you stuck around you saw the students en masse and if you had been at the start of it all you would have seen a lot of the faculty around, making themselves available and more approachable than i've seen any faculty.

sadly, i couldn't make the start of it, given my budget and the three thousand miles between boston and berkeley - it probably would have been helpful.

hey those things happen. i woke up at 3:30 so i could drive from LA, i made it in time, but i wasn't in the best frame of mind. i think frame of mind is really important at these "social" events. certainly you are entitled to your opinion and you're going to go where is best for you, but i think a lot of the concerns you had/have were really insignificant in the grand scheme of things. despite their shop being closed their facilities were top notch [especially considering they're a state school] and i really thought the program spoke for itself. being able to design your own curriculum is a major plus for me.

anyway, my $.2

oh, i didn't care about the shop being closed - the facilities are important, but the way in which they're used is more important, and you can see that in the work.