I am completely against the death penalty, it does not work as a deterrent and is more expensive than Life Without Parole. It is such a barbaric practice that I cannot believe and am embarrased that it happens in my country.
one of my many questions is: if our governments can strip away all other so-called inalienable rights i.e. right to vote, marry, etc by placing a person in prison, then why wouldn't they be able to take someone's right to live? also, i don't know how much 'living' one can actually do in a cage for the rest of their days. personally, i would rather live free or die (no, i don't live in NH)...
but seriously, it is a heinous and scary thing that anyone, especially a government, should have the legal right to kill.
but then again, theoretically, it is eliminating a threat from society, and could therefore be considered to be killing out of protection, an act performed by all animal and even some plant species...
melquiades, that's an interesting statistic about the economics of capital punishment...i had always thought it was cheaper to execute
so many questions, so many perspectives, so many considerations...
Death penalty is permitted in the following countries >>
Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Mongolia
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Qatar
Rwanda
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe
how many people would rather live 50 years in prison with no chance of ever leaving, defending yourself daily against rape, assault, and bad food....or.....end your misery early with little or no suffering?
then let them comit suicide, Im all for an individual's right to comit suicide (not aided by the state) but dont like homocide (in the form of execution).
Plus many people become addicted to jail, as they say "3 hots and a cot!!". It is not as bad as people think it is, specially here in the states.
cynic -- you're actually arguing AGAINST the death penalty! b/c sometimes i feel like mere execution alone isn't punishment enough for some of the people who end up on death row
the death penalty, in general, is expensive; fraught with moral ambiguities and complexities; and does not deter crime. for me, i'd rather be on death row than in the general prison population, especially here in TX
According to some psychologists, in order for the death penalty to be effective it must be absolute and quick. I.e. if you murder, you get death and if sentenced to death, you don't sit on death row for 20 years.
Playing Devil's advocate: what about the murder victim's right to life? Does the murderer forfeit his right to life when he takes life of another in cold blood? How would you feel if your 14 year old daughter was raped repeatedly, strangled, and tossed in a swamp? Is it fair that a clearly guilty man (assuming beyond a shadow of a doubt) gets to finish his life even if it is in prison? Although, in those cases, I think death may be the easy way out. Apparently most prison gaurds don't act too kindly to child molesters. "Oh sorry we walked in on your beating/ass rape. Let us leave you two alone."
It's a really tough question. If it was easy, there wouldn't be such debate. It brings up questions of killing in war etc etc.
+q, that's a really interesting case, but also a pretty slanted article (not that all articles aren't, really, but still). There's some better coverage of this in the LA Times for anyone interested.
Hmm, I thought their use of it was one of the reasons for European opposition to them joining the E.U. Or was that just the imprisonment of journalists? Hmm. I will look it up.
no, i'm not arguing for OR against it.....as i mentioned in my posts, i certainly think there are rational arguments that support it, but the thought of trusting the government, or a jury, with the power to end someone's life is a very heavy matter.
there are situations where i would even kill the criminal myself if given the chance, but one also has to understand that killing is killing, and it is not a black-and-white issue to be taken lightly.
Yeah, I found the following in Wikipedia, too, thanks!
Turkey has recently, as a move towards EU membership, undergone a reform of its legal system. Previously there was a de facto moratorium on death penalty in Turkey as the last execution took place in 1984. The death penalty was removed from peacetime law as in August 2002, and in May 2004 Turkey amended its constitution in order to remove capital punishment in all circumstances.
Not sure how many of those countries actually execute people anyway, quietly. So many odd stories get passed around... just curious.
According to Amnesty International, during 2004 more than 3,797 people were executed in 25 countries, and more than 7,395 people were sentenced to death in 64 countries.
Yep, I know. Did I suggest otherwise? Sometimes my language skills are lacking. I wasn't suggesting something about Turkey, I just honestly didn't know they had changed their consitution.
About the secret executions, that's just a general government comment, I didn't mean it specifically about Turkey... we have them too, everyone knows it. It's just that governments like to camouflage things.
According to some psychologists, in order for the death penalty to be effective it must be absolute and quick. I.e. if you murder, you get death and if sentenced to death, you don't sit on death row for 20 years
Hasselhoff, good point. And, from what I can tell, it's more 'expensive to executive' someone than keeping them in prison for life because of all of the lawyering (endless appeals). The cost to the government on the day they execute a murderer is far less than the cost of keeping someone in prison for life.
cynic, killing isn't killing. at least in the way i think you're thinking about it. when an elderly person dies from old age who commited this 'atrocious killing'? would you euthanize? if you were a military sniper would you kill a suicide bomber seconds before they would detonate their suicide belt?
i agree with you i'd rather be given the death penalty right away rather than sit in prison for 75 years - especially if i was innocent (somehow with no hope for appeal).
our faces scowled with hate for murder, a smile out to break through for a few moments when justice is done - a murderer executed.
yeah...almost a sad as the day 'tookie' fired two shotgun blasts into the back of an innocent 7-11 clerk....or the day 'tookie' shot, at close range, Yen-I Yang in the chest and abdomen, his wife Tsai-Shai Yang in the back and side, and their daughter, Yee-Chen Lin, in the face.
<i>...Using both the testimony of eyewitness accomplices and physical evidence, prosecutors obtained four capital murder convictions. After the guilty verdict was read, the murderer ['tookie'] looked at the jury and said, "I'm going to get each and every one of you motherf------."...<i>
Lord knows the justice system never makes mistakes. So I guess there is no point in keeping it from exacting punishments on individuals that cannot be reversed.
ArchAngel, we raise our glasses high to celebrate some justice...i shed virtual tear for the tragedy of it all, and a real one for the victims - forgotten by the shear quantity of time.
I find it somewhat frustrating that in this time we are more concerned about the murderer than those who were slaughtered for a few hundred dollars. We should remember the victems of senseless killings and not overshadow their memories.
it is a sad fuckin night. arnold is a buffoon. the death penalty represents everything that ever was and ever will be wrong with this country. instead of raising your little fantasy cups in blind allegiance to our justice system and to our pitiful moral sense of justice that is derived and manufactured by the business of capital punishment, why don't you think about the more critical conclusions clemency for Stanley Williams might have provided in this case. Symbolically, this is about the State recognizing a man who clearly tried to change his life (and who was perhaps, at that, more successful than any of us will ever be), it's about recognizing a man's right to transformation, his right to atone for his mistakes in a decidedly more constructive manner and contribution to society than through the mere taking of his life. and for the millions of people who circulate in an out of the justice system, most captives of the snares of recidivism, what promise have we made to them now, what reason do we give them to want to reform, want to change, or be any one above what the state has already presumed them guilty of, that is being not worthy of redemption should you ever fuck up? in that sense, the state has already assumed you have fucked up, or you will eventually. you say, to stay out of jail, that is their ultimate motive. but, our prison system is one that has made life in prison even more appealing for some than a life on the streets. how do we expect those people, or anyone new coming in, to react when we dump them back into society? for all those people who still have a chance at reform, what hope have we provided them now? we have only shown that no matter how hard you try, or how far you come, our system will not allow you to claim redemption, will not allow you to credit yourself with progress, regardless of whether you have been nominated several times for some of the most prestigious humanitarian prizes or not. your only objective, from the justice system's stand point, is You Better Not Get Caught. cause if you do...
you go to the slammer, you aint never coming back. it's their scare tactic. their only way of trying to prevent and deter crime, their only way of dealing with. by not taking responsibility at all. to make the concept of prison so abhorrent that you would never want to go there. but not only has that not worked (we have the highest prison population in the world), our prison system, in many many cases, is set up to incarcerate you for far too long than you deserve to be there, so as to condition you to being there, ultimately dismantling your ability to cope in the community when you get back out. all because the system wants no part in taking responsibility of any kind. all the way down to the roots of crime, poverty, racism, etc. all because incarceration is big business, and criminals are produced like any other product.
first, had Arnold spared his life, he would have spared his life, and would have more than likely spent the rest of it behind bars. so, is it justice you are after, or just blood? if blood, then blood you shall have forever, and we all live like vampires bent on revenge. i wonder, what is justice? just seeing a man, executed, 25 years later, is it the spectacle of the execution that seals the deal? is merely knowing that a life has been taken in retribution really closure, or have we been conditioned into buying that as our only path to closure? knowing that our prison system is incomprehensibly fucked up, and that execution is of no consequence to the resolution of that, isn't then execution a completely self-centered notion of justice? in the end what have you done, besides perpetuated the nasty cycle of recidivism, and killed a belief in humanity that it is possible to change one's life. i will say, the victim psychology in our society is a rampant disease, and thus is that counter-pathology that makes one feel entitled to just take back whenever as however we see fit, whenever and wherever there is a chance, whatever we can get, because you've been wronged somewhere before. it all gets out of whack and we never seem to consider what it is that will really bring a sense of justice to this place, like forcing our government to provide the necessary opportunities for equal wealth distribution and societal structures that builds real community and alleviates institutional poverty. instead, our justice and sense of closure is derived from the completely unsophisticated hypocrisy of execution, just skimming the bad foam off the top layers of society, never mind what continues to cause bad foam in the first place (pardon my awful metaphor). then, what does it show the rest of the world, as we are already neck deep in prison scandal, perpetual torture, and the shameless exportation of our demented carceral pathos, which only appears to worsen and expose the roots of all our evil in other places right now, even desperately trying to be kept secret. what does it show the world that we executed a man, nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize six times over, who somehow managed to find a way to reform himself in a system that is not only the least bit interested in reforming inmates, but is actually out to nab them, as eager as real estate mogul are to fill the vacancies of newly built condos. that's because the prison system is a real estate mogul, with vacancies to be filled. but from the world's standpoint, the US does not extend credit to those who actually succeed in this manner, once convicted you are as good as dead.
well, i hope this reinvigorate the anti-death penalty movement for years to come, and that Tookie will be looked upon as a role model, and not forgotten to bitterness and resentment for a state that remains all too committed to ignoring the triumph of prison rehabilitation. And Arnold should realize, as soon as his term is up here in CA that so is his political career, and so not granting clemency is not going to buy him political capital with his party, cause they will dump him in a second, as they should. he's a fool and even the dumb people of California who elected him are finally seeing that.
i tried a few sentences but nothing really coming out. i am sad, angry and i predict more violance coming to your neighborhoods.
dead man clearly deserved clemency.
I got through a few sentences through finoki's dissertation and realized I was wasting my time. Good riddance to a slab of meat who slaughtered innocent, productive people. Animal.
I think this thread is developing into a very sad direction...
But maybe this is in the nature of the topic.
Still one last argument (as brought up already in the mentioned bumper sticker):
Why should ther ANY justification in the fact that a person is guilty legalize something that is ehicaly wrong: to kill
Why is the fact that tookie killed innocent people - which is a obviously wrong - a reason for any society to continue the killing by taking his life?
Or is the answer that under some circumstances killing people may be right???
It's about social equilibrium. A malignant organism ended four productive lives. That in itself created an imbalance that if left unchecked, would result in social decay.....Think of it as social cancer - literally. Under a microscope it would be obvious what this man and other like him really are. Thank you california for chipping away at the tumor.
thank you for this picture:
a tumor claerly isolated
not able to harm the body anymore
not spreading evil metastasis
even more:
a tumor spreading metastasis that cure and prevent other body cells to become tumors...(as shown in this special case)
show me the doctor who will cut out THIS tumor,
or the isolated tumor as every operation is a risk to the general health of the patient...
Show me a doctor that will cut-out a tumor and keep it alive, pumping donated blood through it to keep it going.
The guy wrote children's books? C'mon...what else is he going to do in 26 years? Eat, Sleep, Pump iron, and wirte at a first grade level......all of which is paid for by the productive taxpayers that he'd rather be executing with a shotgun. Pay some taxes and you'll know what it feels like to be financing this petri dish known as the US penal system. Over and out.
ok it's the money
that's the last resort, the last argument to justify killing someone
just reminds me of the reasons tookie killed for
100 bucks in his case...
p.s. I pay taxes in a country, where the tax load is way higher than in the US....(as it is in almost all European countries)
but maybe that's our fault, stupid degenerated as we are, to pay even for the ones who have not deserved it.
we even pay for those not able to work, for the mentally ill, etc.
Strange that I feel very lucky to live in such a stupid society - which deserves the name SOCIETY (including ALL our people)
But things must be different in god's own country, the wealthiest most powerfull nation on this planet.
the death penalty is hypocritical, barbaric, and should be beneath us. neanderthals won't allow that to happen though. they prefer the dark ages...when superstition and ignorance ruled. this clearly would include archangel...a fictional entity that gay child molesters in pointy hats believe in.
sorry norm
but I think my argument does not need any anti-catholic rant.
as the catholic church HAS shown that it has the power to change over time - too slowly I think - but still developing and reacting on new situations.
(compare the catholic church of the 18th century with today's and compare other institutions that have been around since - let's say - 1776)
nico-I agree the day those people died was a sad day too. That man should be punished for his misdeeds (although he always insited on his innocence, and that is what caused the denial of clemency-so it gives doubt on my mind).
I feel for the victims but I hate that they killed a man on my name and the name of the rest of us americans. I believe that that man's death is now in our collective conscience. I agrre with norm's post above so I won't repeat it.
And nico and ArchAngel, instead of sounding like you are pro-victims you sound like two frat boys looking for an excuse to be assholes.
1,000
What do you guys think?
I am completely against the death penalty, it does not work as a deterrent and is more expensive than Life Without Parole. It is such a barbaric practice that I cannot believe and am embarrased that it happens in my country.
jesus died by capital punishment
that argument could be used by both sides of this debate, sickeningly
i often struggle with this topic....
one of my many questions is: if our governments can strip away all other so-called inalienable rights i.e. right to vote, marry, etc by placing a person in prison, then why wouldn't they be able to take someone's right to live? also, i don't know how much 'living' one can actually do in a cage for the rest of their days. personally, i would rather live free or die (no, i don't live in NH)...
but seriously, it is a heinous and scary thing that anyone, especially a government, should have the legal right to kill.
but then again, theoretically, it is eliminating a threat from society, and could therefore be considered to be killing out of protection, an act performed by all animal and even some plant species...
melquiades, that's an interesting statistic about the economics of capital punishment...i had always thought it was cheaper to execute
so many questions, so many perspectives, so many considerations...
we are in good company huh?
Death penalty is permitted in the following countries >>
Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Mongolia
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Qatar
Rwanda
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe
Well Im proud Colombia is not on that list.
I am disgusted by the death penalty.
just a little devil's advocacy:
how many people would rather live 50 years in prison with no chance of ever leaving, defending yourself daily against rape, assault, and bad food....or.....end your misery early with little or no suffering?
then let them comit suicide, Im all for an individual's right to comit suicide (not aided by the state) but dont like homocide (in the form of execution).
Plus many people become addicted to jail, as they say "3 hots and a cot!!". It is not as bad as people think it is, specially here in the states.
dang ! my country is not on that list, thats too bad, at least 50% of the corrupt politicians here deserve the chair
cynic -- you're actually arguing AGAINST the death penalty! b/c sometimes i feel like mere execution alone isn't punishment enough for some of the people who end up on death row
the death penalty, in general, is expensive; fraught with moral ambiguities and complexities; and does not deter crime. for me, i'd rather be on death row than in the general prison population, especially here in TX
don't forget Turkey, e
One more we are all (in the U.S.) responsible for...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4486178.stm
According to some psychologists, in order for the death penalty to be effective it must be absolute and quick. I.e. if you murder, you get death and if sentenced to death, you don't sit on death row for 20 years.
Playing Devil's advocate: what about the murder victim's right to life? Does the murderer forfeit his right to life when he takes life of another in cold blood? How would you feel if your 14 year old daughter was raped repeatedly, strangled, and tossed in a swamp? Is it fair that a clearly guilty man (assuming beyond a shadow of a doubt) gets to finish his life even if it is in prison? Although, in those cases, I think death may be the easy way out. Apparently most prison gaurds don't act too kindly to child molesters. "Oh sorry we walked in on your beating/ass rape. Let us leave you two alone."
It's a really tough question. If it was easy, there wouldn't be such debate. It brings up questions of killing in war etc etc.
+q, that's a really interesting case, but also a pretty slanted article (not that all articles aren't, really, but still). There's some better coverage of this in the LA Times for anyone interested.
i believe turkey outlawed the death penalty a few years ago.
Hmm, I thought their use of it was one of the reasons for European opposition to them joining the E.U. Or was that just the imprisonment of journalists? Hmm. I will look it up.
ochona:
no, i'm not arguing for OR against it.....as i mentioned in my posts, i certainly think there are rational arguments that support it, but the thought of trusting the government, or a jury, with the power to end someone's life is a very heavy matter.
there are situations where i would even kill the criminal myself if given the chance, but one also has to understand that killing is killing, and it is not a black-and-white issue to be taken lightly.
Yeah, I found the following in Wikipedia, too, thanks!
Turkey has recently, as a move towards EU membership, undergone a reform of its legal system. Previously there was a de facto moratorium on death penalty in Turkey as the last execution took place in 1984. The death penalty was removed from peacetime law as in August 2002, and in May 2004 Turkey amended its constitution in order to remove capital punishment in all circumstances.
Not sure how many of those countries actually execute people anyway, quietly. So many odd stories get passed around... just curious.
According to Amnesty International, during 2004 more than 3,797 people were executed in 25 countries, and more than 7,395 people were sentenced to death in 64 countries.
turks' amendment to their constitution is one giant step ahead of us in terms of death penalty.
myriam, do you think turkish constitution written on a sketch paper with an #hb pencil? it took many years and debates to do that amendment in turkey.
Yep, I know. Did I suggest otherwise? Sometimes my language skills are lacking. I wasn't suggesting something about Turkey, I just honestly didn't know they had changed their consitution.
About the secret executions, that's just a general government comment, I didn't mean it specifically about Turkey... we have them too, everyone knows it. It's just that governments like to camouflage things.
big agree on the camouflage anywhere..
I don't design prisions....well anyhow the kind they lock up people in.
Hasselhoff, good point. And, from what I can tell, it's more 'expensive to executive' someone than keeping them in prison for life because of all of the lawyering (endless appeals). The cost to the government on the day they execute a murderer is far less than the cost of keeping someone in prison for life.
cynic, killing isn't killing. at least in the way i think you're thinking about it. when an elderly person dies from old age who commited this 'atrocious killing'? would you euthanize? if you were a military sniper would you kill a suicide bomber seconds before they would detonate their suicide belt?
i agree with you i'd rather be given the death penalty right away rather than sit in prison for 75 years - especially if i was innocent (somehow with no hope for appeal).
our faces scowled with hate for murder, a smile out to break through for a few moments when justice is done - a murderer executed.
And occasionally, we will smile when an innocent is accidentally executed. But such is justice.
sad day
yeah...almost a sad as the day 'tookie' fired two shotgun blasts into the back of an innocent 7-11 clerk....or the day 'tookie' shot, at close range, Yen-I Yang in the chest and abdomen, his wife Tsai-Shai Yang in the back and side, and their daughter, Yee-Chen Lin, in the face.
<i>...Using both the testimony of eyewitness accomplices and physical evidence, prosecutors obtained four capital murder convictions. After the guilty verdict was read, the murderer ['tookie'] looked at the jury and said, "I'm going to get each and every one of you motherf------."...<i>
anyone for a midnight toast?
nico, I'll be sleeping comfortably when they snuff this neandertal. How about a 7:45 Cheers.
I'd post a pic if the hardworking immigrant's face he blew apart with a shotgun, but that would be......wrong!
and q+....how is this a "sad day"?
Lord knows the justice system never makes mistakes. So I guess there is no point in keeping it from exacting punishments on individuals that cannot be reversed.
exactly, he is an individual that cannot be reversed.
screw clemency, schwarzenegger should just take his place.
"It is wrong to kill people to show that killing people is wrong" (bumper sticker)
ArchAngel, we raise our glasses high to celebrate some justice...i shed virtual tear for the tragedy of it all, and a real one for the victims - forgotten by the shear quantity of time.
I find it somewhat frustrating that in this time we are more concerned about the murderer than those who were slaughtered for a few hundred dollars. We should remember the victems of senseless killings and not overshadow their memories.
it is a sad fuckin night. arnold is a buffoon. the death penalty represents everything that ever was and ever will be wrong with this country. instead of raising your little fantasy cups in blind allegiance to our justice system and to our pitiful moral sense of justice that is derived and manufactured by the business of capital punishment, why don't you think about the more critical conclusions clemency for Stanley Williams might have provided in this case. Symbolically, this is about the State recognizing a man who clearly tried to change his life (and who was perhaps, at that, more successful than any of us will ever be), it's about recognizing a man's right to transformation, his right to atone for his mistakes in a decidedly more constructive manner and contribution to society than through the mere taking of his life. and for the millions of people who circulate in an out of the justice system, most captives of the snares of recidivism, what promise have we made to them now, what reason do we give them to want to reform, want to change, or be any one above what the state has already presumed them guilty of, that is being not worthy of redemption should you ever fuck up? in that sense, the state has already assumed you have fucked up, or you will eventually. you say, to stay out of jail, that is their ultimate motive. but, our prison system is one that has made life in prison even more appealing for some than a life on the streets. how do we expect those people, or anyone new coming in, to react when we dump them back into society? for all those people who still have a chance at reform, what hope have we provided them now? we have only shown that no matter how hard you try, or how far you come, our system will not allow you to claim redemption, will not allow you to credit yourself with progress, regardless of whether you have been nominated several times for some of the most prestigious humanitarian prizes or not. your only objective, from the justice system's stand point, is You Better Not Get Caught. cause if you do...
you go to the slammer, you aint never coming back. it's their scare tactic. their only way of trying to prevent and deter crime, their only way of dealing with. by not taking responsibility at all. to make the concept of prison so abhorrent that you would never want to go there. but not only has that not worked (we have the highest prison population in the world), our prison system, in many many cases, is set up to incarcerate you for far too long than you deserve to be there, so as to condition you to being there, ultimately dismantling your ability to cope in the community when you get back out. all because the system wants no part in taking responsibility of any kind. all the way down to the roots of crime, poverty, racism, etc. all because incarceration is big business, and criminals are produced like any other product.
first, had Arnold spared his life, he would have spared his life, and would have more than likely spent the rest of it behind bars. so, is it justice you are after, or just blood? if blood, then blood you shall have forever, and we all live like vampires bent on revenge. i wonder, what is justice? just seeing a man, executed, 25 years later, is it the spectacle of the execution that seals the deal? is merely knowing that a life has been taken in retribution really closure, or have we been conditioned into buying that as our only path to closure? knowing that our prison system is incomprehensibly fucked up, and that execution is of no consequence to the resolution of that, isn't then execution a completely self-centered notion of justice? in the end what have you done, besides perpetuated the nasty cycle of recidivism, and killed a belief in humanity that it is possible to change one's life. i will say, the victim psychology in our society is a rampant disease, and thus is that counter-pathology that makes one feel entitled to just take back whenever as however we see fit, whenever and wherever there is a chance, whatever we can get, because you've been wronged somewhere before. it all gets out of whack and we never seem to consider what it is that will really bring a sense of justice to this place, like forcing our government to provide the necessary opportunities for equal wealth distribution and societal structures that builds real community and alleviates institutional poverty. instead, our justice and sense of closure is derived from the completely unsophisticated hypocrisy of execution, just skimming the bad foam off the top layers of society, never mind what continues to cause bad foam in the first place (pardon my awful metaphor). then, what does it show the rest of the world, as we are already neck deep in prison scandal, perpetual torture, and the shameless exportation of our demented carceral pathos, which only appears to worsen and expose the roots of all our evil in other places right now, even desperately trying to be kept secret. what does it show the world that we executed a man, nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize six times over, who somehow managed to find a way to reform himself in a system that is not only the least bit interested in reforming inmates, but is actually out to nab them, as eager as real estate mogul are to fill the vacancies of newly built condos. that's because the prison system is a real estate mogul, with vacancies to be filled. but from the world's standpoint, the US does not extend credit to those who actually succeed in this manner, once convicted you are as good as dead.
well, i hope this reinvigorate the anti-death penalty movement for years to come, and that Tookie will be looked upon as a role model, and not forgotten to bitterness and resentment for a state that remains all too committed to ignoring the triumph of prison rehabilitation. And Arnold should realize, as soon as his term is up here in CA that so is his political career, and so not granting clemency is not going to buy him political capital with his party, cause they will dump him in a second, as they should. he's a fool and even the dumb people of California who elected him are finally seeing that.
good night.
i tried a few sentences but nothing really coming out. i am sad, angry and i predict more violance coming to your neighborhoods.
dead man clearly deserved clemency.
I got through a few sentences through finoki's dissertation and realized I was wasting my time. Good riddance to a slab of meat who slaughtered innocent, productive people. Animal.
I think this thread is developing into a very sad direction...
But maybe this is in the nature of the topic.
Still one last argument (as brought up already in the mentioned bumper sticker):
Why should ther ANY justification in the fact that a person is guilty legalize something that is ehicaly wrong: to kill
Why is the fact that tookie killed innocent people - which is a obviously wrong - a reason for any society to continue the killing by taking his life?
Or is the answer that under some circumstances killing people may be right???
It's about social equilibrium. A malignant organism ended four productive lives. That in itself created an imbalance that if left unchecked, would result in social decay.....Think of it as social cancer - literally. Under a microscope it would be obvious what this man and other like him really are. Thank you california for chipping away at the tumor.
thank you for this picture:
a tumor claerly isolated
not able to harm the body anymore
not spreading evil metastasis
even more:
a tumor spreading metastasis that cure and prevent other body cells to become tumors...(as shown in this special case)
show me the doctor who will cut out THIS tumor,
or the isolated tumor as every operation is a risk to the general health of the patient...
Show me a doctor that will cut-out a tumor and keep it alive, pumping donated blood through it to keep it going.
The guy wrote children's books? C'mon...what else is he going to do in 26 years? Eat, Sleep, Pump iron, and wirte at a first grade level......all of which is paid for by the productive taxpayers that he'd rather be executing with a shotgun. Pay some taxes and you'll know what it feels like to be financing this petri dish known as the US penal system. Over and out.
ok it's the money
that's the last resort, the last argument to justify killing someone
just reminds me of the reasons tookie killed for
100 bucks in his case...
p.s. I pay taxes in a country, where the tax load is way higher than in the US....(as it is in almost all European countries)
but maybe that's our fault, stupid degenerated as we are, to pay even for the ones who have not deserved it.
we even pay for those not able to work, for the mentally ill, etc.
Strange that I feel very lucky to live in such a stupid society - which deserves the name SOCIETY (including ALL our people)
But things must be different in god's own country, the wealthiest most powerfull nation on this planet.
the death penalty is hypocritical, barbaric, and should be beneath us. neanderthals won't allow that to happen though. they prefer the dark ages...when superstition and ignorance ruled. this clearly would include archangel...a fictional entity that gay child molesters in pointy hats believe in.
sorry norm
but I think my argument does not need any anti-catholic rant.
as the catholic church HAS shown that it has the power to change over time - too slowly I think - but still developing and reacting on new situations.
(compare the catholic church of the 18th century with today's and compare other institutions that have been around since - let's say - 1776)
nico-I agree the day those people died was a sad day too. That man should be punished for his misdeeds (although he always insited on his innocence, and that is what caused the denial of clemency-so it gives doubt on my mind).
I feel for the victims but I hate that they killed a man on my name and the name of the rest of us americans. I believe that that man's death is now in our collective conscience. I agrre with norm's post above so I won't repeat it.
And nico and ArchAngel, instead of sounding like you are pro-victims you sound like two frat boys looking for an excuse to be assholes.
urbanisto...
i was responding to arch-angel.
but i do hope you were being sarcastic about "god's own country".
AA, you paid more taxes by putting him on death row than keeping him in prision for life.
sorry. i mean "you paid more taxes by him being on death row." i doubt you were on tookie's jury so you could not have put him on death row yourself.
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