So how does one quit gracefully after such a short period of work? I mean short - like 2 weeks! The reason for leaving is I... er... the person wanting to quit has found that the job will not provide the security needed to support student loans and such.
No cantracts were signed. No promises made, but a sense of lack of stabilty is present. This s ok for those with money, but not I... er the person.
The biggest fear is burning bridges with the employers/friends.
"I'm in an unfortunate financial position right now that's forcing me to look for other opportunities"
the big question though is, could you not spot this coming when you took the job? Highlight whatever it is that's changed or been more thoroughly understood since then. Such as, "I didn't realize when I took the job that (I wouldn't be paid overtime, I'd be an independent contractor, you'd screw me up the ass every chance you got, whatever the issue is)"
yeah, just make it clear that that concrete change is what prompted the quitting, and hopefully they'll understand that not everybody can put up with being jerked around by their paycheck.
rationalist.....you work in the USA? If you are not registered, then you might be able to go after your employeer for all your overtime. In some states an employeer is required by law to pay people overtime if they are not registered. They are also not allowed to hire you as
an independent contractor. I would suggest you call the States Attorney Generals office and seek some free advice.
I recall years ago, when I decided I was going to leave a job in Arizona and relocated to the East Coast. My boss was nice enough
to add a bonus to my last check.
... methinks you misunderstand what the law really says ... the law makes certain distinctions between "exempt" and "non-exempt" employees ... non-exempt employees must be paid for overtime. however, by virtue of holding a professional degree, you probably will be considered an exempt employee, as follows:
Professional Employees: An employee is an exempt professional employee if: a) his/her primary duty consists of the performance of work either requiring knowledge or an advanced type degree in a field of science or learning, or teaching, which is customarily acquired through a course of specialized intellectual study and instruction; or b) his/her primary duty consists of work in a recognized field of artistic endeavor which depends primarily on the employee's invention, imagination or talent
licensure is NOT the threshold ... it is much more a function of the education credentials the employee possesses and the nature of the work being done.
snooker, I wasn't saying that I don't get paid for overtime (I don't, but I don't put in a lot of overtime so it's ok). I was just giving examples of financial reasons one might point to as their reason for leaving.
babs...I worked for a smuck in an Arizona firm who took over from a good guy in Arizona...and he did say no pay for overtime.... nor would he honor the time we had put in as overtime under the direction of the former coporate officer.
Yikes...a woman took him to task. Yup the state said pay up! The nice side of the story is we were all gone from the firm, and shortly there after he was gone.
So I say go check it out with the States Attorney Generals Office. Every state is different so I think I gave good advice. I believe with good heart that this information is available from every states Attorney General's office.
I do hate people taking advantage of people...internship or overtime...cause in all cases the Boss is living in a Nicer Home, sending his kids to a better school, and taking longer vacations!
the boss also is responsible for bring in most, if not all, of the work that pays your salary and the boss is ultimately responsible for the professional liability associated with any mistakes that you make while surfing archinect and the boss probably has put in many, many more years of work and has moved into his/her position because he/she has demonstrated the ability to manage a complex organization
the fact that somebody earns more than you earn doesn't mean he/she is taking advantage of anybody
if you don't like the way you're being treated, leave.
snooker: yes, every state is different, and even different investigators come up with different findings in cases like this.
But - almost always - when the department of labor investigates architecture firms they end up ruling that only people who have less than one year of fulltime experience since graduation OR who do not have professional degrees must be paid overtime. People with more than 1 year of fulltime experience and with professional degrees (B.Arch or M.Arch) are considered "exempt professional" and don't need to be paid overtime.
When firms are found to be in violation (for instance when they don't pay student interns or tech-school support staff overtime) they are usually ordered to pay ALL affected employees for a certain period retroactively (2 years seems the usual.) So it may be worth triggering an investigation if you do fit into a non-exempt status.
snooker: yes, every state is different, and even different investigators come up with different findings in cases like this.
But - almost always - when the department of labor investigates architecture firms they end up ruling that only people who have less than one year of fulltime experience since graduation OR who do not have professional degrees must be paid overtime. People with more than 1 year of fulltime experience and with professional degrees (B.Arch or M.Arch) are considered "exempt professional" and don't need to be paid overtime.
When firms are found to be in violation (for instance when they don't pay student interns or tech-school support staff overtime) they are usually ordered to pay ALL affected employees for a certain period retroactively (2 years seems the usual.) So it may be worth triggering an investigation if you do fit into a non-exempt status.
I kind of look at no pay for overtime...like a pay cut. Cause as you know most of the time when overtime comes into play it is because a
project has a very tight schedule or there has been a major screw up on the part of the partner in scheduling.
Say you make $1,000.00 a day and say you end up putting in a 12 hour day...well do the math you end up a real looser. So your working 12 hours instood of 8 hours for the same pay. Your salary goes from $125.00 and hour to $83.33 and hour. Something just isn't right about it. Cause like I said before the Boss goes on Vacation, the Boss drives a Beamer.... I say be fair to the people who work for you.
Formelyunknown, I'm a Boss and I would not think of sticking some intern coming out of school by saying no pay for overtime...Pay time and a half or close your door cause you are not part of a profession, your a jerk wad.
It is guys who manage their practice as early suggested who hurt the whole profession. You ever look at Lawyer billings or medical billings.... they might just give you a little insite as to why Architecture
has slipped in the world of worth for clients.
- there's a big difference between what the law requires and what an enlightened manager is going to do - our firm knows the law and we do a LOT more than the minimum required by the law - but lighten up, man - not every firm is run the way you seem to suggest - at our firm, vacation time is totally a function of tenure, whether you're a partner or not - but "fair" is a two way street - for every firm that tries to screw the staff, there are a lot of staff who will consistently try to screw the firm - what goes on in law firms or medical firm has nothing whatsoever to do with what goes on in architectural firms - the nature of the economics are totally unrelated - ask anybody who's worked in either of those professions - there's just as many jerks there (if not more) than there are in architecture.
Comb so what you saying, is if a person works more than 40 hours a week he should not be paid overtime? If not overtime should he be paid an equal wage? Then again he has the option of working for nothing like I mentioned before which means a direct deduction in his pay of by 50%. Tell me of any other profession which allows this to go on?
ok ... the law, medicine, accounting, management consultants, management personnel in almost all companies ... should I go on ... all of those professions employ salaried employees and most work more than 40 hours / week ... and, in the end, if they're successful, they receive bonuses that reward them very well indeed ....
but, i suggest that you re-read my posts, because you aren't coming even close to drawing reasonable conclusions from what i wrote ... our firm pays OT pay to all but the most senior of employees ... i am NOT espousing the positions you are trying to put into my posts
I told them that I was going back to grad school. And they were actually really happy for me! I guess I just need to learn to trust people more....I don't give them enough credit. They actually congratulated me and one of them shook my hand. So that's nice!
Still don't know what I'm going to be doing for the next 2+ months, but at least I can sleep a little better at night now.
Thanks Steven and rationalist.....my last day will most likely be July 28. The following week for packing, a couple of weekends for goodbyes, and then I'm off!
congratulations wk. i was almost gonna say something anytime now. it shows they are nice people and they honestly care for your professional growth.
it must be a big relief..
Congrats WK. Get ready for the longest two months of your life. I have 8 days left and it feels like an eternity. Focusing on CD's, phonecalls, timesheets etc., will be impossible and alll you'll be able to do is stare out the window and wish were free already. Oh wait thats how I feel, good luck regardless.
congrats WK! i havent turned in the final "day" that i will be leaving--- but i have it in my head--- my b-day, August 3rd. what a great day that will be :)
Bosses just emailed the whole company, to tell everyone and to wish me congratulations. I can now resume eating lunch with my friends and not worry about blurting out California plans at the lunch table!
that happens at my office all the time, tumbleweed. All of the sudden people are talking about taking someone out to lunch for their last day, and it's a good bet that at least 2-3 people (out of er, not quite 15 anymore) will not have known the person was leaving.
rational and tumbleweed> That's happened at my office several times but the timing was just right, and I wasn't out to screw anyone over. I must admit, I was a little stunned by the email they sent out. I think that they think it's fascinating that I am going back to school or something.....and getting rid of my car, and buying a bike, etc. Ha.
I think it was Stourley that said in Thread Central, "you'd be surprised by people's reactions...." Well, I was, and pleasantly so!
who says you have to write a letter? i'm just saying
every time i've quit a job, the good old verbal notice has worked just fine...no burned bridges here either
In three weeks, I'm boarding a rocketship to mars and I don't know when I'll be back again. it's been a pleasure being at your beck and call. I've learned so much about licking shoes and smelling ass under your mentorship. I look forwards to future scatological collaborations together.
i think the typical form letter works. chances are you will hand it to them and verbally give notice. the letter is just a formality that will be read after the fact (if at all) and only needs to state the basics:
1 - here is my formal notice of intent to say peace out broham,
2 - my last day will be ___,
3 - thanks for the opportunity.
all the other stuff can be left to the verbal discussion. just my 2 cents.
I can't WAIT to leave my current job. I just need to finish the project that I'm working on though -- however long that takes it may be two more years who knows?
I have officially finished all my IDP so I feel I am in need of a celebration. My celebration just involves quitting, plane tickets, and traveling through 9 countries until November.
JUST resigned one job for another. Went pretty smoothly...this was my first job out of undergrad (B.S.), and it was always felt like one of convenience. the people were nice, the environment pretty good...but the design work was very pedestrian...and now im going to work for a smaller, more interesting firm...very excited...
Quitting Gracefully
Ok. I am going to bring up a recent thread.
So how does one quit gracefully after such a short period of work? I mean short - like 2 weeks! The reason for leaving is I... er... the person wanting to quit has found that the job will not provide the security needed to support student loans and such.
No cantracts were signed. No promises made, but a sense of lack of stabilty is present. This s ok for those with money, but not I... er the person.
The biggest fear is burning bridges with the employers/friends.
"It's just not working out"
"I'm in an unfortunate financial position right now that's forcing me to look for other opportunities"
the big question though is, could you not spot this coming when you took the job? Highlight whatever it is that's changed or been more thoroughly understood since then. Such as, "I didn't realize when I took the job that (I wouldn't be paid overtime, I'd be an independent contractor, you'd screw me up the ass every chance you got, whatever the issue is)"
Yes, there was a concrete change that suggested financially instability.
The second quote sounds like good way of wording it. So official! Thanks!
yeah, just make it clear that that concrete change is what prompted the quitting, and hopefully they'll understand that not everybody can put up with being jerked around by their paycheck.
Jerked around is dead on. Well put!
rationalist.....you work in the USA? If you are not registered, then you might be able to go after your employeer for all your overtime. In some states an employeer is required by law to pay people overtime if they are not registered. They are also not allowed to hire you as
an independent contractor. I would suggest you call the States Attorney Generals office and seek some free advice.
I recall years ago, when I decided I was going to leave a job in Arizona and relocated to the East Coast. My boss was nice enough
to add a bonus to my last check.
... methinks you misunderstand what the law really says ... the law makes certain distinctions between "exempt" and "non-exempt" employees ... non-exempt employees must be paid for overtime. however, by virtue of holding a professional degree, you probably will be considered an exempt employee, as follows:
Professional Employees: An employee is an exempt professional employee if: a) his/her primary duty consists of the performance of work either requiring knowledge or an advanced type degree in a field of science or learning, or teaching, which is customarily acquired through a course of specialized intellectual study and instruction; or b) his/her primary duty consists of work in a recognized field of artistic endeavor which depends primarily on the employee's invention, imagination or talent
licensure is NOT the threshold ... it is much more a function of the education credentials the employee possesses and the nature of the work being done.
snooker, I wasn't saying that I don't get paid for overtime (I don't, but I don't put in a lot of overtime so it's ok). I was just giving examples of financial reasons one might point to as their reason for leaving.
thanks for the concern, though.
gracefully?
"fu** you, FU** you, Fuc* you, you're cool, Fuc* you ...
im out!!!
babs...I worked for a smuck in an Arizona firm who took over from a good guy in Arizona...and he did say no pay for overtime.... nor would he honor the time we had put in as overtime under the direction of the former coporate officer.
Yikes...a woman took him to task. Yup the state said pay up! The nice side of the story is we were all gone from the firm, and shortly there after he was gone.
So I say go check it out with the States Attorney Generals Office. Every state is different so I think I gave good advice. I believe with good heart that this information is available from every states Attorney General's office.
I do hate people taking advantage of people...internship or overtime...cause in all cases the Boss is living in a Nicer Home, sending his kids to a better school, and taking longer vacations!
the boss also is responsible for bring in most, if not all, of the work that pays your salary and the boss is ultimately responsible for the professional liability associated with any mistakes that you make while surfing archinect and the boss probably has put in many, many more years of work and has moved into his/her position because he/she has demonstrated the ability to manage a complex organization
the fact that somebody earns more than you earn doesn't mean he/she is taking advantage of anybody
if you don't like the way you're being treated, leave.
snooker: yes, every state is different, and even different investigators come up with different findings in cases like this.
But - almost always - when the department of labor investigates architecture firms they end up ruling that only people who have less than one year of fulltime experience since graduation OR who do not have professional degrees must be paid overtime. People with more than 1 year of fulltime experience and with professional degrees (B.Arch or M.Arch) are considered "exempt professional" and don't need to be paid overtime.
When firms are found to be in violation (for instance when they don't pay student interns or tech-school support staff overtime) they are usually ordered to pay ALL affected employees for a certain period retroactively (2 years seems the usual.) So it may be worth triggering an investigation if you do fit into a non-exempt status.
snooker: yes, every state is different, and even different investigators come up with different findings in cases like this.
But - almost always - when the department of labor investigates architecture firms they end up ruling that only people who have less than one year of fulltime experience since graduation OR who do not have professional degrees must be paid overtime. People with more than 1 year of fulltime experience and with professional degrees (B.Arch or M.Arch) are considered "exempt professional" and don't need to be paid overtime.
When firms are found to be in violation (for instance when they don't pay student interns or tech-school support staff overtime) they are usually ordered to pay ALL affected employees for a certain period retroactively (2 years seems the usual.) So it may be worth triggering an investigation if you do fit into a non-exempt status.
oops - sorry for duplicates
I kind of look at no pay for overtime...like a pay cut. Cause as you know most of the time when overtime comes into play it is because a
project has a very tight schedule or there has been a major screw up on the part of the partner in scheduling.
Say you make $1,000.00 a day and say you end up putting in a 12 hour day...well do the math you end up a real looser. So your working 12 hours instood of 8 hours for the same pay. Your salary goes from $125.00 and hour to $83.33 and hour. Something just isn't right about it. Cause like I said before the Boss goes on Vacation, the Boss drives a Beamer.... I say be fair to the people who work for you.
Formelyunknown, I'm a Boss and I would not think of sticking some intern coming out of school by saying no pay for overtime...Pay time and a half or close your door cause you are not part of a profession, your a jerk wad.
It is guys who manage their practice as early suggested who hurt the whole profession. You ever look at Lawyer billings or medical billings.... they might just give you a little insite as to why Architecture
has slipped in the world of worth for clients.
- there's a big difference between what the law requires and what an enlightened manager is going to do - our firm knows the law and we do a LOT more than the minimum required by the law - but lighten up, man - not every firm is run the way you seem to suggest - at our firm, vacation time is totally a function of tenure, whether you're a partner or not - but "fair" is a two way street - for every firm that tries to screw the staff, there are a lot of staff who will consistently try to screw the firm - what goes on in law firms or medical firm has nothing whatsoever to do with what goes on in architectural firms - the nature of the economics are totally unrelated - ask anybody who's worked in either of those professions - there's just as many jerks there (if not more) than there are in architecture.
Comb so what you saying, is if a person works more than 40 hours a week he should not be paid overtime? If not overtime should he be paid an equal wage? Then again he has the option of working for nothing like I mentioned before which means a direct deduction in his pay of by 50%. Tell me of any other profession which allows this to go on?
ok ... the law, medicine, accounting, management consultants, management personnel in almost all companies ... should I go on ... all of those professions employ salaried employees and most work more than 40 hours / week ... and, in the end, if they're successful, they receive bonuses that reward them very well indeed ....
but, i suggest that you re-read my posts, because you aren't coming even close to drawing reasonable conclusions from what i wrote ... our firm pays OT pay to all but the most senior of employees ... i am NOT espousing the positions you are trying to put into my posts
I did it! Ahhhhh!
I told them that I was going back to grad school. And they were actually really happy for me! I guess I just need to learn to trust people more....I don't give them enough credit. They actually congratulated me and one of them shook my hand. So that's nice!
Still don't know what I'm going to be doing for the next 2+ months, but at least I can sleep a little better at night now.
congrats, wk! now - to a point, anyway - your next 2 months can go however you WANT them to go.
YAY WonderK!!! So are you done then, or is your exact end date still TBD?
Thanks Steven and rationalist.....my last day will most likely be July 28. The following week for packing, a couple of weekends for goodbyes, and then I'm off!
OMG! It's real now!
congratulations wk. i was almost gonna say something anytime now. it shows they are nice people and they honestly care for your professional growth.
it must be a big relief..
Congrats, DubK. I put in my notice a couple weeks ago (I'm leaving at the end of June), and it felt like a huge weight was lifted from my shoulders.
See, like I said, you were shown that the time was right, and it worked out great.
Wk- LA will be a breath of fresh air for you. Looking forward to your school blog!
Congrats WK. Get ready for the longest two months of your life. I have 8 days left and it feels like an eternity. Focusing on CD's, phonecalls, timesheets etc., will be impossible and alll you'll be able to do is stare out the window and wish were free already. Oh wait thats how I feel, good luck regardless.
congrats WK! i havent turned in the final "day" that i will be leaving--- but i have it in my head--- my b-day, August 3rd. what a great day that will be :)
Thanks, gang!
Bosses just emailed the whole company, to tell everyone and to wish me congratulations. I can now resume eating lunch with my friends and not worry about blurting out California plans at the lunch table!
he was prolly intimidated by your beauty.
that happens at my office all the time, tumbleweed. All of the sudden people are talking about taking someone out to lunch for their last day, and it's a good bet that at least 2-3 people (out of er, not quite 15 anymore) will not have known the person was leaving.
prolly's the new YouTube.
rational and tumbleweed> That's happened at my office several times but the timing was just right, and I wasn't out to screw anyone over. I must admit, I was a little stunned by the email they sent out. I think that they think it's fascinating that I am going back to school or something.....and getting rid of my car, and buying a bike, etc. Ha.
I think it was Stourley that said in Thread Central, "you'd be surprised by people's reactions...." Well, I was, and pleasantly so!
I still run into people from my old job who don't realize that I haven't worked there in like 9 months. Big firm-little fish...
congratulations WonderK, I know you've been stressing over this far too long. Glad to see you got the support you need.
who says you have to write a letter? i'm just saying
every time i've quit a job, the good old verbal notice has worked just fine...no burned bridges here either
dear muckity muck boss-
In three weeks, I'm boarding a rocketship to mars and I don't know when I'll be back again. it's been a pleasure being at your beck and call. I've learned so much about licking shoes and smelling ass under your mentorship. I look forwards to future scatological collaborations together.
formerly,
you know who
i think the typical form letter works. chances are you will hand it to them and verbally give notice. the letter is just a formality that will be read after the fact (if at all) and only needs to state the basics:
1 - here is my formal notice of intent to say peace out broham,
2 - my last day will be ___,
3 - thanks for the opportunity.
all the other stuff can be left to the verbal discussion. just my 2 cents.
I just gracefully submitted my resignation letter. Sigh.
have a pbr on me ms. n______________________________________
I sent you a postcard today Mr. Vado.
awesome its probably tucked in between all my bills and disconnect notices...
wow - this is timely cause it seems like I'm out of a job.
n_ and architechnophilia: The King and Queen of Unemployment
I can't WAIT to leave my current job. I just need to finish the project that I'm working on though -- however long that takes it may be two more years who knows?
so what are you going to do with your time off n_? I feel almost like its an achievement....is that weird?
I have officially finished all my IDP so I feel I am in need of a celebration. My celebration just involves quitting, plane tickets, and traveling through 9 countries until November.
JUST resigned one job for another. Went pretty smoothly...this was my first job out of undergrad (B.S.), and it was always felt like one of convenience. the people were nice, the environment pretty good...but the design work was very pedestrian...and now im going to work for a smaller, more interesting firm...very excited...
will be going from this:
http://www.hamiltonsnowber.com/Assets/palisades/bg_front2.jpg
to this:
http://mocoloco.com/david_jameson_eastern_addit.jpg
http://www.davidjamesonarchitect.com/calem/exterior3.jpg
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