In recent posts it has been the case that a number of people have been asking how much they are expected to earn with so and so experience in a certain area. So I thought it would be a good idea for you guys to state your yearly salary, location and the number of years you have been working within the indusrty.
If enough people reply, then we will get a good idea of salaries in certain areas, and will be able to see if you guys are earning what you SHOULD be earning.
we've gone through this many times before.
First off, talking about how much you make with your peers is not right...specially with those you work with.
Secondly, given previous history...this will turn into a thread littered with six figure earning Architects just out of school, or another discussion on how someone is making 10k a year in NYC working for this guy or that.
My suggestion...either have Paul set up some sort of database, or just look at the AIA web site. They usually publish these results yearly.
How accurate are the AIA surveys....In my experience, the salaries are nowhere near what is published...
I think it is a valid topic to discuss.....Architects are typically overworked and underpaid......
I absolutely do not agree that talking about your compensation with your peers is not right. That attitude is the old school business mentality that wants the system to be set up in such a way that people who are doing the same work but being compensated differently for it won't find out and demand a change. I think most of us agree that the profession is underpaid as a whole. It is helpful for people, especially those just starting out, to understand the salary range for the type of work they are looking for in the area they live in for a number of reasons, not the least of which is having the confidence to go in to an interview or a salary review and ask to be fairly compensated. At my first job for "known" firm out of school, I basically agreed to what they offered me and then realized it really wasn't enough to live on. I figured with my education and skills I should be making more, but I had no way to know without asking my peers. In fact, my salary was based on the AIA guidelines, they just used the lowest end of the pay scale and classified me as that, which may have been accurate, but didn't seem right to me based on the cost of living in the city where I live, etc. So, I did an informal pole of my friends, who were all nice enough to respond, letting me know their education history, salary, benefits and how many hours they worked. I found out I was at the BOTTOM of a list of about 20 friends. I asked for more money at a 6 month review at my office, explaining that I know what the average that other people were getting was and that I didn't feel they were compensating me fairly, and they gave me a 10% raise. I ended up moving on to a much bigger raise a few months later at another firm, and what gave me the confidence to ask for the money was knowing what my peers made. As a side note, there were some interesting articles in last sundays New York Times magazine about white collar crome, business models, etc. and one was about whole foods. Apparently part of their philosophy of pleasing customers and employees first means allowing any employee to see the salary of any other, as well as capping the top executive's salary at 14 times that of the average worker (still $400,000, if you're going to argue that that isn't enough, they have stock as well).
While I agree with you R.A. Rudolph, unfortuantely many an archinecter's employer may not. And if their firm is like ours many of my co-workers are on here...
J3, i think its viable information in fact to see the progress of compensation for young archies. its anonymous enough for me on this thread and quite frankly, i'm not one to hide many things as is anyway. and if you really give a ____ about a couple of idiotas putting up ridiculous numbers to impress, then maybe its time to re-evaluate what exactly your problem with this thread is to begin with.
ultimately, the amount i'm paid has little to do with my true talent or substance as a person, regardless of how much the money is or how little. arguable it seems at first, but if that were the case, architecture firms would go broke worldwide. i politic, do a good job but ultimately (not yet anyway) i am not executing my own design. therefore, my paychecks dont necessarily reflect what it is i am in architecture for.
look at the AIA web page? i'd rather not. i'd like the real gritty straight from the source information. set up something even MORE anonymous than this- fine, do whatever you like- its just interesting to see how the rest of the (archinect) world fares in terms of compensation.
if possible, i think the poll should contain info about the size of firm you work for. i've work for 3 person firms and firms with offices around the world and pay is not the same in these instances
thanks paul...
to clear up my comments a bit... I have issues with people I work with (same office) asking what I make (this is what I defined as peers) and what they make...speaking in general about salaries is not really very professional. However, I am in agreement that knowing what your counterparts (exp/age) make is good to evaluate where you are on the pay scale.
i used to work in a small office in sf. in small offices you wear many hats. one of my hats was paying the staff. i was responsible for calling the bank every 2 and letting them know how much to pay each employee. my boss did not hide how much we each made. we all loved the honesty.
I am always a bit reluctant to speak openly about how much i make with other people in the office, although it can prove pretty useful to know a few key figures in order to assess your own position within the office. The subject of money has popped up in the past during parties or other social events where people get hammered and start talking... It's helped me realize that I was getting ripped off big time and prompted my leaving the office where i was working at the time. wages are always a bit taboo but it is worth touching on the subject subtly once in a while to find out if you're treated fairly by your employer and in comparison with your fellow employees.
J3,
If the company makes it a policy to have everyone understand what their & their fellow worker's compensation is, and what it is based on, and how they determine the evaluations, then discussing compensation needn't be "unprofessional". I can't exactly explain why this particular issue irks me so much, but I just feel it isn't right.
I remember an experience I had the first year in college when I worked at an office supply store. I don't know exactly what happened, but somehow I ended up revealing to a co-worker how much money I was making (I had probably gotten a check and wanted to cash it there or something - I think I was only working a few days a week and probably was making $7 an hour or so). I think he was somewhat older and had been working there a while, and it turned out he was making less than I was so he must have complained. The owner pulled me aside and very rudely told me that I should never discuss my salary with co-workers, that it was "un-professional". And I guess it was obvious to me that she was mad because he had asked for more money once he realized that they were willing to pay me more despite my lack of experience.
In general I think that when people discuss salary and there turns out to be large discrepancies, it makes the lesser paid ones feel as though the company is just trying to pay them the minimum possible. We all know salaries are based on many things, skills, experience, politics, and a lot of other stuff. It seems to me that it makes for a better workplace if the company at least tries to be fair and have their employees understand the basis for their compansation. I'm sure it's difficult to do, but you should be willing to explain to people your reasons for salary differences, and let them work towards increasing their salary if they want by knowing how it is determined. I think often companies are afraid to admit that some of the pay is based on just plain favoritism, nepotism or whatever, but maybe that's my bias.
ok........................
my employer does have compensation charts which are very easy to understand. If I am making 20k more than someone else that's their fucking problem...there is no need for anyone to know how much I make. All they need to know is that I fall between 32k-65k...same way you can rationalize with the your adolescent story, at the end of the day you will find out that open discussions on how much money you make is in very poor taste. new money brags about how much they have, old money doesn't need to brag. this obsession with money is very representative with what is totally wrong with today’s fictitious society...pretty blobs...prada shoes...bling bling...
I make soooo little...shut the fuck up and do something about it...
doberman, that was a she not a he, and no. things were open, but not that open.
j3, i think there is a difference between bragging about how much money you make and working in an enviroment where everyone knows how much you make. because of the openness, none of us were obsessed with money or how much we each made. it was what it was. no pretty shoes or bling bling just architecture.
Okay, so what happens when you are the one making $20K LESS than someone else. Maybe if you knew you were of so little value to your firm you would do something about it.
That's the whole point of knowing what everyone else is making, and that's also the reason why it's anonymous. People won't feel the need to brag about their salaries if they can't do it to your face.
As I filled out my response to the salary survey, then read some others, I realized I may have left some things out. Turns out I'm eligible for profit sharing - which hasn't been all that rewarding thus far. The year I started at my current job was the most generous profit sharing year, but I wasn't eligible for it in my first year. Second year, much less profitable. Third year, even less. My timing, as always, is impeccable.
Through some deductive math skills, I used the past 3 years' profit sharing tables, and was able to determine that my salary is 4.5% of the total salary expenditures of my firm. Clearly there is a huge imbalance of salaries in favor of the partners, but the total expenditures for salaries would not really be all that much different if they'd ever finally cough up the raise or bonus I haven't received in two and a half years.
Thanks, Paul, for the chance to bitch. I'm amazed at how many posts there are from very big cities, but not too many from mid-sized cities. Maybe we're still skeptical about our anonymity?
well i for one live in a small city but work in a big city.....commute time would be an interesting addition to the salary poll; mine is pushing an hour.
good point. I commute 11 miles each way, 25 minutes. from a small town to a mid-sized city in my own vehicle. my parking is not paid for.
As I continue to think of details I might want to know from others in a similar position, I'm reminded again how different things really are. There are so many variables beyond money that make comparing jobs very difficult.
1. design good architecture
a. the architecture degree needs to encompass engineering, contractor, and estimating.
2. marketing scheme
to bring architecture to "everyone" archit TV etc, create mass market "need". fix pricing scale.
3.?????
4. Profit
1. design good architecture
a. the architecture degree needs to encompass engineering, contractor, and estimating.
2. marketing scheme
to bring architecture to "everyone" archit TV etc, create mass market "need". fix pricing scale.
3.?????
4. Profit
ok..on the poll, i have to ask HOW do some people in their 30s working at firms make six figures in an architecture firm? PLEASE tell us how you do it ;)
I can understand the 30k - 50k range...
I have a question regarding the way you (US residents) state your salary. It's before taxes, right? How much do you pay in tax on average? Here in Denmark it's close to 50%, but of course theres great healthcare included.
Yes it's typically stated before taxes. I don't know what the average is, but I pay a little over 30% in taxes. And then (depending on where you live) there is sales tax which is typically around 8%. And if you own a home you have property tax (which I have no idea what that costs).
Colorado has sales taxes...they vary depending on the local municipality...where I am in Douglas County it is around 7.6%....and property taxes for me are around $2600 per year, but of course vary widely depending on the appraised value of your property.
This thread and the salary survey are excellent ways for us as architects to become better businessmen and businesswomen (or at least more cognizant of the surrounding financial climate). Regardless of talent there should be appropriate compensation for architects. Everybody here understands the important role that architects and designers pose on the environment and in cities and communities. And the hard work that is put forth in creating this (60, 70, 80+ hours a week) is testament to this. Why shouldn’t we be properly compensated? I know (for a fact) the average engineer we work with or use as consultants makes about twenty percent more than architects. Why is this? Probably mostly due to their anal retentive nature but also because they may not be willing to undercut one another and get wrapped up in such subjective discussions regarding their relevance in society. The ‘starving artist’ theme is fine if you are independently wealthy or free from debt, but otherwise your going to be scraping by on your $30,000+ salary getting out of school. It is time for us as individuals to push constantly for more money and more respect and to urge our peers and co-workers to do the same. It will only help us collectively in the end.
I doubt that. Graphic designers and photographers make the same if not more than architects. Working for advertising is BIG money. My landlord is a photographer he works 30 days a year.
tman, john is right. i have worked within architecture, industrial design, and graphic design. on average, id and graphic designers make more than architects.
If anything graphic designers, photographers, and designers are raising the mean wage higher ($36,126) for the arts community. For most artists its probably around $18,000. Anyone have some more telling data on art wages?
not only do a lot of graphic designers, photographers, etc make more than architects, they do not have issues of state registration boards and NCARB paperwork to deal with, nor (more importantly) do they have the kind of liability that architects incur when that stamp goes on the construction documents.
How much do you earn?
In recent posts it has been the case that a number of people have been asking how much they are expected to earn with so and so experience in a certain area. So I thought it would be a good idea for you guys to state your yearly salary, location and the number of years you have been working within the indusrty.
If enough people reply, then we will get a good idea of salaries in certain areas, and will be able to see if you guys are earning what you SHOULD be earning.
45k, nyc, 2.5yrs
that was strange- we dont even talk about how much we make in the office
dont let me be the only one posting up here damnit..
we've gone through this many times before.
First off, talking about how much you make with your peers is not right...specially with those you work with.
Secondly, given previous history...this will turn into a thread littered with six figure earning Architects just out of school, or another discussion on how someone is making 10k a year in NYC working for this guy or that.
My suggestion...either have Paul set up some sort of database, or just look at the AIA web site. They usually publish these results yearly.
How accurate are the AIA surveys....In my experience, the salaries are nowhere near what is published...
I think it is a valid topic to discuss.....Architects are typically overworked and underpaid......
So here you go kyll,
46k, 2 yrs, San Francisco
I absolutely do not agree that talking about your compensation with your peers is not right. That attitude is the old school business mentality that wants the system to be set up in such a way that people who are doing the same work but being compensated differently for it won't find out and demand a change. I think most of us agree that the profession is underpaid as a whole. It is helpful for people, especially those just starting out, to understand the salary range for the type of work they are looking for in the area they live in for a number of reasons, not the least of which is having the confidence to go in to an interview or a salary review and ask to be fairly compensated. At my first job for "known" firm out of school, I basically agreed to what they offered me and then realized it really wasn't enough to live on. I figured with my education and skills I should be making more, but I had no way to know without asking my peers. In fact, my salary was based on the AIA guidelines, they just used the lowest end of the pay scale and classified me as that, which may have been accurate, but didn't seem right to me based on the cost of living in the city where I live, etc. So, I did an informal pole of my friends, who were all nice enough to respond, letting me know their education history, salary, benefits and how many hours they worked. I found out I was at the BOTTOM of a list of about 20 friends. I asked for more money at a 6 month review at my office, explaining that I know what the average that other people were getting was and that I didn't feel they were compensating me fairly, and they gave me a 10% raise. I ended up moving on to a much bigger raise a few months later at another firm, and what gave me the confidence to ask for the money was knowing what my peers made. As a side note, there were some interesting articles in last sundays New York Times magazine about white collar crome, business models, etc. and one was about whole foods. Apparently part of their philosophy of pleasing customers and employees first means allowing any employee to see the salary of any other, as well as capping the top executive's salary at 14 times that of the average worker (still $400,000, if you're going to argue that that isn't enough, they have stock as well).
i can set up a quick and dirty (anonymous) questionnaire to gather this information. I think it would be quite helpful to a lot of people.
Please do... I would like to see how gender fits in, if you don't mind.
Thanks
I agree....a questionnaire would be very good.....provided people are sincere and answer truthfully....
While I agree with you R.A. Rudolph, unfortuantely many an archinecter's employer may not. And if their firm is like ours many of my co-workers are on here...
The poll must be divided by location, number of years in the profession, registered or not registered. (male/female? Just a thought)
thank ya
J3, i think its viable information in fact to see the progress of compensation for young archies. its anonymous enough for me on this thread and quite frankly, i'm not one to hide many things as is anyway. and if you really give a ____ about a couple of idiotas putting up ridiculous numbers to impress, then maybe its time to re-evaluate what exactly your problem with this thread is to begin with.
ultimately, the amount i'm paid has little to do with my true talent or substance as a person, regardless of how much the money is or how little. arguable it seems at first, but if that were the case, architecture firms would go broke worldwide. i politic, do a good job but ultimately (not yet anyway) i am not executing my own design. therefore, my paychecks dont necessarily reflect what it is i am in architecture for.
look at the AIA web page? i'd rather not. i'd like the real gritty straight from the source information. set up something even MORE anonymous than this- fine, do whatever you like- its just interesting to see how the rest of the (archinect) world fares in terms of compensation.
if possible, i think the poll should contain info about the size of firm you work for. i've work for 3 person firms and firms with offices around the world and pay is not the same in these instances
e - the poll is live. you should be able to put details about the size of the firm in the comments field if "type of workplace" isn't detailed enough.
Sweet! Thanks Paul you got that up fast!
i make 100K
worked for 5 years
perfect. thx paul.
thanks paul...
to clear up my comments a bit... I have issues with people I work with (same office) asking what I make (this is what I defined as peers) and what they make...speaking in general about salaries is not really very professional. However, I am in agreement that knowing what your counterparts (exp/age) make is good to evaluate where you are on the pay scale.
i used to work in a small office in sf. in small offices you wear many hats. one of my hats was paying the staff. i was responsible for calling the bank every 2 and letting them know how much to pay each employee. my boss did not hide how much we each made. we all loved the honesty.
e: did you guys know how much HE made?
I am always a bit reluctant to speak openly about how much i make with other people in the office, although it can prove pretty useful to know a few key figures in order to assess your own position within the office. The subject of money has popped up in the past during parties or other social events where people get hammered and start talking... It's helped me realize that I was getting ripped off big time and prompted my leaving the office where i was working at the time. wages are always a bit taboo but it is worth touching on the subject subtly once in a while to find out if you're treated fairly by your employer and in comparison with your fellow employees.
J3,
If the company makes it a policy to have everyone understand what their & their fellow worker's compensation is, and what it is based on, and how they determine the evaluations, then discussing compensation needn't be "unprofessional". I can't exactly explain why this particular issue irks me so much, but I just feel it isn't right.
I remember an experience I had the first year in college when I worked at an office supply store. I don't know exactly what happened, but somehow I ended up revealing to a co-worker how much money I was making (I had probably gotten a check and wanted to cash it there or something - I think I was only working a few days a week and probably was making $7 an hour or so). I think he was somewhat older and had been working there a while, and it turned out he was making less than I was so he must have complained. The owner pulled me aside and very rudely told me that I should never discuss my salary with co-workers, that it was "un-professional". And I guess it was obvious to me that she was mad because he had asked for more money once he realized that they were willing to pay me more despite my lack of experience.
In general I think that when people discuss salary and there turns out to be large discrepancies, it makes the lesser paid ones feel as though the company is just trying to pay them the minimum possible. We all know salaries are based on many things, skills, experience, politics, and a lot of other stuff. It seems to me that it makes for a better workplace if the company at least tries to be fair and have their employees understand the basis for their compansation. I'm sure it's difficult to do, but you should be willing to explain to people your reasons for salary differences, and let them work towards increasing their salary if they want by knowing how it is determined. I think often companies are afraid to admit that some of the pay is based on just plain favoritism, nepotism or whatever, but maybe that's my bias.
ok........................
my employer does have compensation charts which are very easy to understand. If I am making 20k more than someone else that's their fucking problem...there is no need for anyone to know how much I make. All they need to know is that I fall between 32k-65k...same way you can rationalize with the your adolescent story, at the end of the day you will find out that open discussions on how much money you make is in very poor taste. new money brags about how much they have, old money doesn't need to brag. this obsession with money is very representative with what is totally wrong with today’s fictitious society...pretty blobs...prada shoes...bling bling...
I make soooo little...shut the fuck up and do something about it...
doberman, that was a she not a he, and no. things were open, but not that open.
j3, i think there is a difference between bragging about how much money you make and working in an enviroment where everyone knows how much you make. because of the openness, none of us were obsessed with money or how much we each made. it was what it was. no pretty shoes or bling bling just architecture.
Okay, so what happens when you are the one making $20K LESS than someone else. Maybe if you knew you were of so little value to your firm you would do something about it.
That's the whole point of knowing what everyone else is making, and that's also the reason why it's anonymous. People won't feel the need to brag about their salaries if they can't do it to your face.
Thanks Paul, that's extremely helpful.
the majority of us are still making less than the starting salary for a bagger at Trader Joes
http://www.traderjoes.com/recruit/benefits.asp
we need to do something about this
but it's oh so much more rewarding... weekends and evenings are overated anyway...
TTiger, was that in Japan, or where?
As I filled out my response to the salary survey, then read some others, I realized I may have left some things out. Turns out I'm eligible for profit sharing - which hasn't been all that rewarding thus far. The year I started at my current job was the most generous profit sharing year, but I wasn't eligible for it in my first year. Second year, much less profitable. Third year, even less. My timing, as always, is impeccable.
Through some deductive math skills, I used the past 3 years' profit sharing tables, and was able to determine that my salary is 4.5% of the total salary expenditures of my firm. Clearly there is a huge imbalance of salaries in favor of the partners, but the total expenditures for salaries would not really be all that much different if they'd ever finally cough up the raise or bonus I haven't received in two and a half years.
Thanks, Paul, for the chance to bitch. I'm amazed at how many posts there are from very big cities, but not too many from mid-sized cities. Maybe we're still skeptical about our anonymity?
well i for one live in a small city but work in a big city.....commute time would be an interesting addition to the salary poll; mine is pushing an hour.
good point. I commute 11 miles each way, 25 minutes. from a small town to a mid-sized city in my own vehicle. my parking is not paid for.
As I continue to think of details I might want to know from others in a similar position, I'm reminded again how different things really are. There are so many variables beyond money that make comparing jobs very difficult.
Buisness Plan:
1. design good architecture
a. the architecture degree needs to encompass engineering, contractor, and estimating.
2. marketing scheme
to bring architecture to "everyone" archit TV etc, create mass market "need". fix pricing scale.
3.?????
4. Profit
Buisness Plan:
1. design good architecture
a. the architecture degree needs to encompass engineering, contractor, and estimating.
2. marketing scheme
to bring architecture to "everyone" archit TV etc, create mass market "need". fix pricing scale.
3.?????
4. Profit
ok..on the poll, i have to ask HOW do some people in their 30s working at firms make six figures in an architecture firm? PLEASE tell us how you do it ;)
I can understand the 30k - 50k range...
Chicago - Mid sized firm - 5.5 yrs exp. - 50K/year
401K, Medical + Dental, 2 weeks Paid vacate......
Hot Hot Hot Receptionist!
Can't Complain!
I have a question regarding the way you (US residents) state your salary. It's before taxes, right? How much do you pay in tax on average? Here in Denmark it's close to 50%, but of course theres great healthcare included.
Yes it's typically stated before taxes. I don't know what the average is, but I pay a little over 30% in taxes. And then (depending on where you live) there is sales tax which is typically around 8%. And if you own a home you have property tax (which I have no idea what that costs).
washington state has 8.8% sales tax but no state tax.
is it boston with no sales tax or the whole state of massachusetts? And for that matter, what other states dont have sales tax?
Oregon doesn't have sales tax. I don't know which states other than that.
Colorado has sales taxes...they vary depending on the local municipality...where I am in Douglas County it is around 7.6%....and property taxes for me are around $2600 per year, but of course vary widely depending on the appraised value of your property.
Boston has sales tax but New Hampshire does not.
This thread and the salary survey are excellent ways for us as architects to become better businessmen and businesswomen (or at least more cognizant of the surrounding financial climate). Regardless of talent there should be appropriate compensation for architects. Everybody here understands the important role that architects and designers pose on the environment and in cities and communities. And the hard work that is put forth in creating this (60, 70, 80+ hours a week) is testament to this. Why shouldn’t we be properly compensated? I know (for a fact) the average engineer we work with or use as consultants makes about twenty percent more than architects. Why is this? Probably mostly due to their anal retentive nature but also because they may not be willing to undercut one another and get wrapped up in such subjective discussions regarding their relevance in society. The ‘starving artist’ theme is fine if you are independently wealthy or free from debt, but otherwise your going to be scraping by on your $30,000+ salary getting out of school. It is time for us as individuals to push constantly for more money and more respect and to urge our peers and co-workers to do the same. It will only help us collectively in the end.
A recent study at Northwestern University complied data from the US census from 1940 to 2000 found that:
-there are four times as many people in the arts now.
-88 percent are white
-in 1999 the mean income for artist (including graphic designers and architects) was $36,126.
just a few tidbits in contrast to looking at the salary poll.
i think that architects make on average more than graphic designers and painters, sculpturs, photographers. Although i can be wrong.
I doubt that. Graphic designers and photographers make the same if not more than architects. Working for advertising is BIG money. My landlord is a photographer he works 30 days a year.
tman, john is right. i have worked within architecture, industrial design, and graphic design. on average, id and graphic designers make more than architects.
oh, and photographer make tons. i use a photographer for some of my projects. depending on who the work is for, they can make $500-10,000/day.
If anything graphic designers, photographers, and designers are raising the mean wage higher ($36,126) for the arts community. For most artists its probably around $18,000. Anyone have some more telling data on art wages?
not only do a lot of graphic designers, photographers, etc make more than architects, they do not have issues of state registration boards and NCARB paperwork to deal with, nor (more importantly) do they have the kind of liability that architects incur when that stamp goes on the construction documents.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.