If we have union, then it can protect interns from the firms that pay ridiculously low salaries, offering healthcare, and also might be able to create some mandatory percentage fee from clients? It doesn't have to be just for architects, but also for all design professionals.
does the AIA or UIA do anything as far as salary and job security are concerned? Or are they more of a networking organizations and another title to attain as an architect?
my hazy recollection is that it may be illegal for registered professionals to have a union; something about price fixing as i recall.
if i'm wrong though i see no advantage by adding another layer of bureaucracy in addition to the existing:
AIA
NCARB
STATE LICENSURE
CONTINUING EDUCATION
i'll pass on paying union dues, thank you.
el jeffe's right regarding the legality of organizing by licensed professionals. its why the bar assns, the medical assn, and aia all have lobbyists. otherwise, we're expected to be responsible for ourselves.
interns, however, aren't bound by these legalities as far as i know. power to the people.
A couple of years ago, a few students at MIT wrote up a proposal for an architectural apprentices' union as part of the 50K Entrepreneurship competition. I think they were finalists in the competition. There might be something online about their proposal.
what the the hell does the AIA do for keeping new architects salaries above the "poverty" level and relative to other professionals? jack shit.
i had many friends in the construction trades (non-union) who made way more money than i did until i was well into my 30's. they had high-school educations at best and could bareley read the CD's we slaved to produce.
point being, a union/mafia intervention is not needed on top of the BS layers we already exist under. we just need more action by those layers, not lip service.
in the name of fair play, form64, since the good ol' boys aren't here to defend themselves:
the aia is made up of those who choose to participate and try to make a difference in their professional environment. yes, it's self-serving for those in the club. those who don't choose to participate shouldn't expect anything FROM the aia.
those who don't choose to participate shouldn't expect anything FROM the aia.
exactly their problem. they have ZERO to offer with a membership fee. i should be able to join and get "benefits" of being part of a professionally represented organization. period.
do we have have to do anything more than pay taxes to see the benefits in our community? roads, schools, infrastructure, judicial system, etc.
i don't have to go to any city council meetings for my tax dollar to provide a return (however small it may be)
you misunderstood the word participate, perchance? i wasn't referring to dues.
i found that the more i could do within the aia, the more it was worth it. i saw a direct return on my efforts. when i got into other things and no longer had time to stay involved, my membership was less useful and i let it drop.
Also, unions have traditionally been about giving political power to those who were marginalized. The whole idea about a union is that when a marginalized group can stand together, they can effectively fight large, well financed, well entrenched institutions. Almost every well-established country with public health care (that is to say most of Western countries) has a strong pro-unionist history.
when i was an intern i ADMIRED those you might call blue collar workers. i wouldn't mind the association. they made more than me with less education and they often got to breathe real air instead of the recycled poison i inhaled.
the only thing that really separated me from bluecollar-hood is that i made less and was required to wear a tie.
I'm with Steve, I often admire blue collar workers for pretty much the same reasons he lists.
My friends that work at Pepsi were recently offered to have the CDL training and test paid for by the company to cover local routes. They also got a pay raise for accepting the new position: new yearly income = approx. 80K! One has no college education, and the other has an associates in music from the local community college. They like to point out that I went to college and have a degree, but make less than half of what they're making.
Um, actually, no. Unions do not equate with blue collar. I'm a proud union member. (I work for a city and so I'm part of the city's employee union.) Though I'm wearing a blue shirt (and a tie) today, I'm white collar. And as a result of my union, I have a competitive salary and very good benefits.
Steven: wow, does AIA have lobbyists? What have they accomplished? I've heard that because of the lobbyists who represent contractors, they can build without architect's stamp, not to mention ADA. What did AIA do?
Oh, AIA membership fee is just very expensive subscription for Architectural Record.
tectonic....im saying that actors are definately not blue-collar workers.
anyways if you want to be obsessed with your terminology about white collar and blue collar profesionals, then sure, go ahead. All I am trying to say is that it is more important for us to be treated right as professionals and if a union achieves that, they why the fuck not???
i find so many people obsessed with semantic terms and lingo its really funny.
actually sameolddocttor are you trying to tell me the actors who make 6 dollars an hour serving my dinnier are not blue collar. mm just to let you know city jobs are blue collar good luck in the private sector!
hey smart-ass, you are getting it all mixed up between education and profession, an actor who works as an actor and is part of their union is NOT BLUE COLLAR. period
I just heard on the news that casting directors (Hollywood types) are trying to unionize but are having trouble because they are considered "management" and management can't unionize. Is this the problem? Are we management? I may be looked at as some form of management now, but I sure as hell wasn't a couple of years ago.
Can you please give me an example of a member based organization that doesn't require you to DO anything and receive BENEFITS???
fulcrum:
Yes - the AIA does have Lobbyist - unfortunately not enough of the membership money goes to funding goes to the ArchiPAC.
Personally - I think more people would be willing to sign-up for membership if most of the money went straight into the ArchiPAC and creating a difference. http://www.aia.org/adv_archipac
i pay then get race benefits as licensed rider. period. AND they further the cause of racers without me having to "get involved" but i can if i wish.
from their site:
The American Institute of Architects is the voice of the architecture profession, dedicated to:
Serving its members Advancing their value
Improving the quality of the built environment
can anyone here say thay have been successful at all of that?
like fulcrum said, it's not much more than an expensive subscription to arch record.
if the AIA got off it's fat old-man ass, it could do the same as a union does for "blue collar" workers.
"If the AIA got off it's fat old-man ass, it could do the same as a union does for "blue collar" workers."
Well - why don't you insert yourself into that "fat old-man ass" membership organization and make changes happen?
But then again - that would require you actually DOING something with your membership instead of just reaping in the benefits.
Do you always sit around and bitch waiting for the water to clear before you jump in? Someone has to do the dirty work.
There's a ton of people out there complaining about the AIA, even some members. Just as people complain about NCARB, IDP, the cost of AREs. But that's all the majority does - complain.
Change is never going to happen if all everyone does is sit around and complain. You have to have faith that you can change the system - and if you're not trying to change the system, you have to have faith that there are people in the mud trying to instigate change. Just plain bitching about anything doesn’t get anyone anywhere. And it definitely doesn’t turn a “fat old-man ass†membership organization into something you’d be interested in joining.
My point? If you’re going to complain, do something to right the situation. If you’re not going to do anything, don’t complain.
From what I gather - Steve Ward both joined and left the AIA for all the right reasons.
hi lena- i'm sure you look great in a coconut bra but you know nothing about labor history in this country girl. perhaps you may want to read about the "uprising of the 20,000" . it might interest you.
there's power in the factory power in the land
power in the hands of the worker
but it all boils down to nothing if together we dont stand
there is power in a union.
now the lessons of the past
are all learned with workers blood
mistakes of the bosses we must pay for
from the cities to the farmland to the trenches full of mud
war's always been the bosses way sir
now i long for the morning
when they realize that brutality and unjust laws will not defeat us
who'll defend the workers who cannot organize
when the bosses send their lackeys out to cheat us
money speaks for money
the devil to his own
who'll come to speak for the skin and the bone
comfort the old widow give light to a child
there is power in a union
get off your f'n high horse. i'm not some new college grad. i've been around a long time in this biz and don't need to justify to YOU all of my past experiences with working in my local AIA chapter. you ASSUME that all i do is "bitch". you have NO clue about me or what i've done, you "fat old-man ass supporter"
carefull with running the quasi-sexist patronizing remarks so close to the Billy Bragg lyrics. It makes you sound too out-of-touch-old-left-behind-every-blue-colar-there’s-a-red-neck,
Some of the unions I’ve worked with (as a non union tradesperson) are totally mobbed-up and thuggish and all about doing as little and as poor quality work for as much money as possible. Obviously, it’s where you end up when in a culture that has nothing but contempt for the worker and not much of an industrial craft tradition left, and that lionized the bosses for their thuggishness while blaming the unions…. but it still sucks to deal with and it still brings down standards of quality.
On the other hand, my mom is in the service workers and she pays significant dues but they provider her with her health benefits and a pension. Better yet, she can move to any other union shop and continue her benefits uninterrupted and there is a strike fund for when it comes to that.
When I get my own health insurance it costs hundreds of dollars a month and, since the tech-stock crash, I’ve got nothing saved for retirement. I’d gladly pay dues to some bureaucrats who work for me and give me some security for my money (better them that some HMO). If the AIA could get it together to do that instead of sting around thinking up new ways of regulating me and keeping me from getting licensed (to protect their own position) I’d join right up. Until then there are things like this:
and I know there was something in the Bay Area back in the day called the Graphic Artists Guild.
At least in the circles I move in these days it seems like most people move around between various jobs, working as “contractors†and picking up freelance jobs in between add to this that as much of the work seems to be fabrication, print media, web-design, ect. as it is architecture maybe something like the AIA isn’t for us. Maybe we do need our own union.
Arch-F:
I can understand your point. If we want to change something, then we should do something. I didn't mean to start this thread to bash AIA, but it seems like they are, indeed, good example of an organization that hasn't been able to fulfill many of its members' needs. I have many friends who have tried to make some positive impact in the AIA, but it's like you alone trying to change the US constitution. We need to act as a group to topple, or fix, the AIA, and creating a counter entity, like the union, might be able to do it. Just idea, you know.
By the way, I thought the purpose of this forum is to "discuss" and "share" our thoughts and experience, and certainly "complaining" (not bitching) is part of this, too.
If the AIA could get it together to do that instead of sting around thinking up new ways of regulating me and keeping me from getting licensed (to protect their own position) I’d join right up
They need people to get licensed - their membership is based on licensed architect, no licensed architects, no members, no AIA...
Fulcrum -
I have noting against the forum, nothing against discussing and sharing our ideas. There's things that I absolutely hate about the AIA and admittedly nothing within the AIA worth loving.
AND I have friends trying to make some changes, and I admire them for all of their efforts, even if they are in vein (I give them props for trying).
Sure unionize. I would join-up right away if the conditions were right.
- - -
I have nothing against complaining, if it’s complaining with a purpose – something that people can respond to.
Why does the AIA suck so much and why are they one in only a handful professional organizations that seemingly represents the entire architecture profession to the public? And why are they the most publicly recognized organization when it comes to representing the architecture profession?
I just get sick of the name calling the generalizations. How do you respond to someone who calls you a "fat old-man ass supporter" You don’t, you can’t – you can laugh at that person, but it won’t make him feel that your any less of a "fat old-man ass supporter." It would probably just aggravate him even more.
"If the AIA could get it together to do that instead of sting around thinking up new ways of regulating me and keeping me from getting licensed (to protect their own position) I’d join right up"
aia and ncarb are not the same. and your state's registration board is not related to the aia.
jejuneie:
I actually left the private sector only recently to take a job with the city... I am working on similar projects but now have a more direct say in what happens. And I'm working fewer hours, making better money, and have better benefits. The switch from private to public sector didn't change the color of my collar.
But I'm flattered you consider me part of the proletariat.
Hello, as a first time poster, let me introduce myself as a parent of a student who is planning to apply to BArch programs in the fall. I stumbled upon your site and discussion group while trying to educate myself on the profession of architecture, since I don't actually know any architects and find popular culture's respresentations of them (Mr. Brady of the Brady Bunch and Wilbur from Mr. Ed) absurdities.
I found this thread irresistable , since my impression after reading many of the posts here is that if anyone needs a union (I"m talking about collective bargaining for wages, benefits, terms and condition of employment here, not a professional organization like the AIA) it's you.
Just for clarification sake, professionals are not excluded from the National Labor Act. Many teachers, nurses and even doctors are unionized, if they are considered non management EMPLOYEES.
Your situation sounds most similar to graduate students, who in many recent examples are trying to organize (against all odds, as is usually the case). I won't take up your time with that here, there's plenty of info on the more high profile cases of this on the web, such as TAs at Yale University.
As far as the "blue collar" stigma. I'm suprised to read some of the awful sterotypes perpetuated here about union workers being lazy and producing poor quality work. As architects, I assumed you had contact with union trades (electricians, pipefitters, carpenters etc...). There is a trememdous amount of pride and skill amongst these workers. True, in some cases trade union leadership is mobbed up but if you don't already know let me inform you that many of the members resist this and are struggling for union democracy.
Bottom line is that employees that are union members make more money, have better benefits, are more politically informed and have a voice in ther terms and conditions of their employment.
Unions are a waste of time. Why, you say? Because SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST MOTHERFUCKER!!!
Just because you sappy talentless pukes cant be creative with your approach to getting work, just because you don't know how the system works to use it to your own advantage, and just because you admire Jimmy Hoffa so much that you want to follow in his crime infested footsteps... means that there is MORE FOR ME!!
That's right! So go Unionize. I'll still be taking expensive vacations while you're figuring out how to organize and just who's bitch you should be.
And just for the record:
Is someone who works for the DMV considered blue-collar? Or course they are... because they are a servant to the FUCKING CITY!!!
Is the mayor of your city considered blue-collar? Absolutely, because - yep you guessed it: because they are a servant to the FUCKING CITY!!!
Is Arnold Schwarzenegger considered blue collar? Yes, because he was voted into public office which makes him a...servant to the FUCKING CITY!!!
Is the President of the United States considered blue collar? Absolutely - because he's EVERYONE'S BITCH!!!
NOTE: Decent financial compensation does not a white-collar make. But working for the city means you're one step above a pig-molesting red neck, i.e. blue collar.
urbanunplanner- i wonder why it even seemed impt to you to register a screen name and launch your screed if you have so little respect for us and what we do? certainly it wasn't for the jesus thread?
How come we don't have an organized union?
If we have union, then it can protect interns from the firms that pay ridiculously low salaries, offering healthcare, and also might be able to create some mandatory percentage fee from clients? It doesn't have to be just for architects, but also for all design professionals.
does the AIA or UIA do anything as far as salary and job security are concerned? Or are they more of a networking organizations and another title to attain as an architect?
my hazy recollection is that it may be illegal for registered professionals to have a union; something about price fixing as i recall.
if i'm wrong though i see no advantage by adding another layer of bureaucracy in addition to the existing:
AIA
NCARB
STATE LICENSURE
CONTINUING EDUCATION
i'll pass on paying union dues, thank you.
el jeffe's right regarding the legality of organizing by licensed professionals. its why the bar assns, the medical assn, and aia all have lobbyists. otherwise, we're expected to be responsible for ourselves.
interns, however, aren't bound by these legalities as far as i know. power to the people.
unions=legalized mafia
huh?
"mandatory percentage fee" = price fixing.
United States vs. National Society of Professional Engineer's: violation of anti-trust laws
it's been tried, and appealed, and appealed, and appealed, Supreme Court says no dice
A couple of years ago, a few students at MIT wrote up a proposal for an architectural apprentices' union as part of the 50K Entrepreneurship competition. I think they were finalists in the competition. There might be something online about their proposal.
Because as a profession we are afraid it will make us look like blue collar workers.
what the the hell does the AIA do for keeping new architects salaries above the "poverty" level and relative to other professionals? jack shit.
i had many friends in the construction trades (non-union) who made way more money than i did until i was well into my 30's. they had high-school educations at best and could bareley read the CD's we slaved to produce.
point being, a union/mafia intervention is not needed on top of the BS layers we already exist under. we just need more action by those layers, not lip service.
damn AIA good ol' boys club...pompous pricks.
in the name of fair play, form64, since the good ol' boys aren't here to defend themselves:
the aia is made up of those who choose to participate and try to make a difference in their professional environment. yes, it's self-serving for those in the club. those who don't choose to participate shouldn't expect anything FROM the aia.
(and, no, i'm not a member anymore, either.)
- Steven Ward
those who don't choose to participate shouldn't expect anything FROM the aia.
exactly their problem. they have ZERO to offer with a membership fee. i should be able to join and get "benefits" of being part of a professionally represented organization. period.
do we have have to do anything more than pay taxes to see the benefits in our community? roads, schools, infrastructure, judicial system, etc.
i don't have to go to any city council meetings for my tax dollar to provide a return (however small it may be)
you misunderstood the word participate, perchance? i wasn't referring to dues.
i found that the more i could do within the aia, the more it was worth it. i saw a direct return on my efforts. when i got into other things and no longer had time to stay involved, my membership was less useful and i let it drop.
Also, unions have traditionally been about giving political power to those who were marginalized. The whole idea about a union is that when a marginalized group can stand together, they can effectively fight large, well financed, well entrenched institutions. Almost every well-established country with public health care (that is to say most of Western countries) has a strong pro-unionist history.
no, i understood. i think we should NOT have to participate (who has time?) to get benefits.
dues alone should justify a tangible return. otherwise it's nothing more than a BS tax write-off.
Because as a profession we are afraid it will make us look like blue collar workers.
I'll post it again if you need me to.
cad monkey union, local 24.
we'll have a guerilla as our mascot.. i can't think of any good names for him though..
i got it.. markup!
or just mark..
when i was an intern i ADMIRED those you might call blue collar workers. i wouldn't mind the association. they made more than me with less education and they often got to breathe real air instead of the recycled poison i inhaled.
the only thing that really separated me from bluecollar-hood is that i made less and was required to wear a tie.
I'm with Steve, I often admire blue collar workers for pretty much the same reasons he lists.
My friends that work at Pepsi were recently offered to have the CDL training and test paid for by the company to cover local routes. They also got a pay raise for accepting the new position: new yearly income = approx. 80K! One has no college education, and the other has an associates in music from the local community college. They like to point out that I went to college and have a degree, but make less than half of what they're making.
unfortunately i'm not very good at plumbing. i tend to overheat the copper so the solder won't stick and my stems always leak.
and i don't even want to talk about my electrical skills...
if architecture was dispensed out of a vending machine, we'd make more than $80k a year.
union=blue collar.
Um, actually, no. Unions do not equate with blue collar. I'm a proud union member. (I work for a city and so I'm part of the city's employee union.) Though I'm wearing a blue shirt (and a tie) today, I'm white collar. And as a result of my union, I have a competitive salary and very good benefits.
Steven: wow, does AIA have lobbyists? What have they accomplished? I've heard that because of the lobbyists who represent contractors, they can build without architect's stamp, not to mention ADA. What did AIA do?
Oh, AIA membership fee is just very expensive subscription for Architectural Record.
tectonic and jejuneieure
, we do get paid lesser than blue collar workers, dont we??
and you are trying to say that creative professionals like actors who are part of a union are blue collar workers?? go check your sources guys
Sameolddoctor?
Are you saying that because they are ina creative industry they are automcatically white collar?
tectonic....im saying that actors are definately not blue-collar workers.
anyways if you want to be obsessed with your terminology about white collar and blue collar profesionals, then sure, go ahead. All I am trying to say is that it is more important for us to be treated right as professionals and if a union achieves that, they why the fuck not???
i find so many people obsessed with semantic terms and lingo its really funny.
actually sameolddocttor are you trying to tell me the actors who make 6 dollars an hour serving my dinnier are not blue collar. mm just to let you know city jobs are blue collar good luck in the private sector!
hey smart-ass, you are getting it all mixed up between education and profession, an actor who works as an actor and is part of their union is NOT BLUE COLLAR. period
I just heard on the news that casting directors (Hollywood types) are trying to unionize but are having trouble because they are considered "management" and management can't unionize. Is this the problem? Are we management? I may be looked at as some form of management now, but I sure as hell wasn't a couple of years ago.
FORM 64:
Can you please give me an example of a member based organization that doesn't require you to DO anything and receive BENEFITS???
fulcrum:
Yes - the AIA does have Lobbyist - unfortunately not enough of the membership money goes to funding goes to the ArchiPAC.
Personally - I think more people would be willing to sign-up for membership if most of the money went straight into the ArchiPAC and creating a difference.
http://www.aia.org/adv_archipac
Archi-F:
off the top of my head,
http://www.usacycling.org/
i pay then get race benefits as licensed rider. period. AND they further the cause of racers without me having to "get involved" but i can if i wish.
from their site:
The American Institute of Architects is the voice of the architecture profession, dedicated to:
Serving its members
Advancing their value
Improving the quality of the built environment
can anyone here say thay have been successful at all of that?
like fulcrum said, it's not much more than an expensive subscription to arch record.
if the AIA got off it's fat old-man ass, it could do the same as a union does for "blue collar" workers.
form64-
"If the AIA got off it's fat old-man ass, it could do the same as a union does for "blue collar" workers."
Well - why don't you insert yourself into that "fat old-man ass" membership organization and make changes happen?
But then again - that would require you actually DOING something with your membership instead of just reaping in the benefits.
Do you always sit around and bitch waiting for the water to clear before you jump in? Someone has to do the dirty work.
There's a ton of people out there complaining about the AIA, even some members. Just as people complain about NCARB, IDP, the cost of AREs. But that's all the majority does - complain.
Change is never going to happen if all everyone does is sit around and complain. You have to have faith that you can change the system - and if you're not trying to change the system, you have to have faith that there are people in the mud trying to instigate change. Just plain bitching about anything doesn’t get anyone anywhere. And it definitely doesn’t turn a “fat old-man ass†membership organization into something you’d be interested in joining.
My point? If you’re going to complain, do something to right the situation. If you’re not going to do anything, don’t complain.
From what I gather - Steve Ward both joined and left the AIA for all the right reasons.
hi lena- i'm sure you look great in a coconut bra but you know nothing about labor history in this country girl. perhaps you may want to read about the "uprising of the 20,000" . it might interest you.
there's power in the factory power in the land
power in the hands of the worker
but it all boils down to nothing if together we dont stand
there is power in a union.
now the lessons of the past
are all learned with workers blood
mistakes of the bosses we must pay for
from the cities to the farmland to the trenches full of mud
war's always been the bosses way sir
now i long for the morning
when they realize that brutality and unjust laws will not defeat us
who'll defend the workers who cannot organize
when the bosses send their lackeys out to cheat us
money speaks for money
the devil to his own
who'll come to speak for the skin and the bone
comfort the old widow give light to a child
there is power in a union
the union forever defending our rights
Archi-F-
get off your f'n high horse. i'm not some new college grad. i've been around a long time in this biz and don't need to justify to YOU all of my past experiences with working in my local AIA chapter. you ASSUME that all i do is "bitch". you have NO clue about me or what i've done, you "fat old-man ass supporter"
FOAD
vado:
carefull with running the quasi-sexist patronizing remarks so close to the Billy Bragg lyrics. It makes you sound too out-of-touch-old-left-behind-every-blue-colar-there’s-a-red-neck,
Some of the unions I’ve worked with (as a non union tradesperson) are totally mobbed-up and thuggish and all about doing as little and as poor quality work for as much money as possible. Obviously, it’s where you end up when in a culture that has nothing but contempt for the worker and not much of an industrial craft tradition left, and that lionized the bosses for their thuggishness while blaming the unions…. but it still sucks to deal with and it still brings down standards of quality.
On the other hand, my mom is in the service workers and she pays significant dues but they provider her with her health benefits and a pension. Better yet, she can move to any other union shop and continue her benefits uninterrupted and there is a strike fund for when it comes to that.
When I get my own health insurance it costs hundreds of dollars a month and, since the tech-stock crash, I’ve got nothing saved for retirement. I’d gladly pay dues to some bureaucrats who work for me and give me some security for my money (better them that some HMO). If the AIA could get it together to do that instead of sting around thinking up new ways of regulating me and keeping me from getting licensed (to protect their own position) I’d join right up. Until then there are things like this:
http://www.workingtoday.org/
and I know there was something in the Bay Area back in the day called the Graphic Artists Guild.
At least in the circles I move in these days it seems like most people move around between various jobs, working as “contractors†and picking up freelance jobs in between add to this that as much of the work seems to be fabrication, print media, web-design, ect. as it is architecture maybe something like the AIA isn’t for us. Maybe we do need our own union.
Arch-F:
I can understand your point. If we want to change something, then we should do something. I didn't mean to start this thread to bash AIA, but it seems like they are, indeed, good example of an organization that hasn't been able to fulfill many of its members' needs. I have many friends who have tried to make some positive impact in the AIA, but it's like you alone trying to change the US constitution. We need to act as a group to topple, or fix, the AIA, and creating a counter entity, like the union, might be able to do it. Just idea, you know.
By the way, I thought the purpose of this forum is to "discuss" and "share" our thoughts and experience, and certainly "complaining" (not bitching) is part of this, too.
ive had relations
with girls from many nations
ive made passes
at women of all classes.-billy bragg
lena will get my reference.
If the AIA could get it together to do that instead of sting around thinking up new ways of regulating me and keeping me from getting licensed (to protect their own position) I’d join right up
They need people to get licensed - their membership is based on licensed architect, no licensed architects, no members, no AIA...
Fulcrum -
I have noting against the forum, nothing against discussing and sharing our ideas. There's things that I absolutely hate about the AIA and admittedly nothing within the AIA worth loving.
AND I have friends trying to make some changes, and I admire them for all of their efforts, even if they are in vein (I give them props for trying).
Sure unionize. I would join-up right away if the conditions were right.
- - -
I have nothing against complaining, if it’s complaining with a purpose – something that people can respond to.
Why does the AIA suck so much and why are they one in only a handful professional organizations that seemingly represents the entire architecture profession to the public? And why are they the most publicly recognized organization when it comes to representing the architecture profession?
I just get sick of the name calling the generalizations. How do you respond to someone who calls you a "fat old-man ass supporter" You don’t, you can’t – you can laugh at that person, but it won’t make him feel that your any less of a "fat old-man ass supporter." It would probably just aggravate him even more.
LOL
the sucky AIA and your issues are far to trivial in the scope my life's serious pursuits to aggravate me at all.
i just love to see those who still drink the grape juice defend mr. jones.
"If the AIA could get it together to do that instead of sting around thinking up new ways of regulating me and keeping me from getting licensed (to protect their own position) I’d join right up"
aia and ncarb are not the same. and your state's registration board is not related to the aia.
jejuneie:
I actually left the private sector only recently to take a job with the city... I am working on similar projects but now have a more direct say in what happens. And I'm working fewer hours, making better money, and have better benefits. The switch from private to public sector didn't change the color of my collar.
But I'm flattered you consider me part of the proletariat.
Hello, as a first time poster, let me introduce myself as a parent of a student who is planning to apply to BArch programs in the fall. I stumbled upon your site and discussion group while trying to educate myself on the profession of architecture, since I don't actually know any architects and find popular culture's respresentations of them (Mr. Brady of the Brady Bunch and Wilbur from Mr. Ed) absurdities.
I found this thread irresistable , since my impression after reading many of the posts here is that if anyone needs a union (I"m talking about collective bargaining for wages, benefits, terms and condition of employment here, not a professional organization like the AIA) it's you.
Just for clarification sake, professionals are not excluded from the National Labor Act. Many teachers, nurses and even doctors are unionized, if they are considered non management EMPLOYEES.
Your situation sounds most similar to graduate students, who in many recent examples are trying to organize (against all odds, as is usually the case). I won't take up your time with that here, there's plenty of info on the more high profile cases of this on the web, such as TAs at Yale University.
As far as the "blue collar" stigma. I'm suprised to read some of the awful sterotypes perpetuated here about union workers being lazy and producing poor quality work. As architects, I assumed you had contact with union trades (electricians, pipefitters, carpenters etc...). There is a trememdous amount of pride and skill amongst these workers. True, in some cases trade union leadership is mobbed up but if you don't already know let me inform you that many of the members resist this and are struggling for union democracy.
Bottom line is that employees that are union members make more money, have better benefits, are more politically informed and have a voice in ther terms and conditions of their employment.
hey if it wasnt for unions, we'd still be working sixty hours a week for low wages and... uh hey nevermind.
OK final say to end this insipid debate:
Unions are a waste of time. Why, you say? Because SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST MOTHERFUCKER!!!
Just because you sappy talentless pukes cant be creative with your approach to getting work, just because you don't know how the system works to use it to your own advantage, and just because you admire Jimmy Hoffa so much that you want to follow in his crime infested footsteps... means that there is MORE FOR ME!!
That's right! So go Unionize. I'll still be taking expensive vacations while you're figuring out how to organize and just who's bitch you should be.
And just for the record:
Is someone who works for the DMV considered blue-collar? Or course they are... because they are a servant to the FUCKING CITY!!!
Is the mayor of your city considered blue-collar? Absolutely, because - yep you guessed it: because they are a servant to the FUCKING CITY!!!
Is Arnold Schwarzenegger considered blue collar? Yes, because he was voted into public office which makes him a...servant to the FUCKING CITY!!!
Is the President of the United States considered blue collar? Absolutely - because he's EVERYONE'S BITCH!!!
NOTE: Decent financial compensation does not a white-collar make. But working for the city means you're one step above a pig-molesting red neck, i.e. blue collar.
Urban whatever your name is, you are sick..and juvenile..and obviously ignorant.
ooooh - fighting words from a future paper pusher.
go make you ready.
urbanunplanner- i wonder why it even seemed impt to you to register a screen name and launch your screed if you have so little respect for us and what we do? certainly it wasn't for the jesus thread?
Urban planners ("de" or otherwise) don't take expensive vacations. Particularly unemployable ones who spout ignorant bullshit on internet chat boards.
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