I started to respond to the other post with the same title, but wanted to take it in a little different direction. Lots of discussion about salaries by firm size, but I don't think that is really appropriate as there are large firms working in pretty unprofitable sections. I suggest looking at salaries by firm project type. These can be similar to firm size but not exactly the same.
I suggest the hierarchy might be:
tier 1: single family residential
tier 2: small commercial, small multifamily, restaurants, tenant buildouts
tier 3: larger projects such as government (schools, DPW, etc) commercial, light industrial
tier 4: Specialties and large scale projects such as industrial, healthcare, sports, etc.
tier 1: single family residential (luxury or standard?)
in any event, I don't think many firms do just one type of project. It may be the majority of their work, but classifying it this way would be difficult.
I think a lot of smaller firms are skewed significantly into one lane, at least if they intend to be profitable. Repetition creates efficiency, etc. We dabble in the occasional somethin or another, but when you really squint your eyes its 95% one project type just at various scales.
Jul 31, 24 2:00 pm ·
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shellarchitect
i understand, that's why i'm thinking in terms of tiers. Tier 1 architects can get into tier 2, but certainly not tier 3.
Jul 31, 24 2:41 pm ·
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BulgarBlogger
Where do corporate interiors fall?
Jul 31, 24 2:53 pm ·
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shellarchitect
thats a good question, i guess it depends on the scale and complexity. I spent almost 5 years at a tier 2 firm doing 30k sq. ft. interior renovations and a couple larger govenment projects. Pretty certain that I was the only one in the 15 person firm capable of doing these projects w/o a million mistakes.
Jul 31, 24 3:02 pm ·
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shellarchitect
interiors are funny too because they can be pretty complex, esp with existing conditions in older high rises. Is that your experience BB?
I've done my fair share, but haven't made a career out of it. I've done everything from highrises, convention centers, multifamily buildings, master plans, hospitality, and urban residential projects.
Also, firms that have multiple departments: you might be in a department that works on smaller projects, but the salaries for those employees are carried in part by the revenue from the bigger projects run by others in other departments in order to allow the firm as a whole to employ higher-caliber professionals across the board.
i found an architect facebook group a little while ago which seems to be mostly sfr architects complaining about low pay or asking elementary questions code questions regarding commercial projects.
I've worked at tiers 2, 3, and 4 firms, and really didn't see any overlap. Tier 2 firms like to think they can handle tier 3 projects, but they really have a hard time with the work if/when the get it. By the same token, its hard for firms to move down as the overhead rates just dont allow the firm to do the work and make any money.
Long story short, if you want to make living as an architect, specialize!
I've worked in all four tiers of project. (college intern to present). With the exception of my college intern days all the firms I've worked in did projects in the tier 2-4.
Heck. Right now I'm working on a fire station, high school, courthouse, and a 'salt shed' for a road and bridge department. Construction costs range from $350k - $200 million. :s
We're a 15 person firm that normally goes after civic, school, industrial, and commercial work. We work in a large geographic region that is comprised of smaller (under 500,000 pop). As such we have a wide range of work. The small buildings we work on are typically 'favors' to larger clients. IE: the 'salt shed' for a huge road and bridge department. We don't do single or multi family housing.
I think this is typical of firms in locations this. I've worked in several firms like this and you need a team that is experienced with a wide range of project experience. It's also important to partner with other firms that are experts in certain areas when needed.
Jul 31, 24 6:18 pm ·
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bowling_ball
This is my expressive experience 100%
Aug 1, 24 12:59 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
Same. I've worked in every building type and construction type. I started my career at a firm that was the biggest and oldest one of three firms in a 90-mile radius. Every building everywhere you looked was designed by us -- university projects, hospitals, malls, schools, parking garages, medical clinics, banks, churches, city hall, multi-family, offices, industrial, preschool, warehouses, park pavilions, ballrooms, dormitories, we did it all. And I've continued to work in firms that do similar. It helped when it came time to pass the ARE's. I would be bored doing the same project over and over.
Over the last 15 years, I've hit dozens of projects in all of these categories and all within the same office. 15-20 staff across Arch, ID, tech.
Tier 1: Modest single-family single storey house to low 8-figure 5 storey custom house. Several apartment conversions in the mid 2000s as well.
Tier 2: Several dozen retail/commercial fit-ups with some being full new build + fit-up. Some are 2-3 page CD sets, some are full custom jobs with plenty of complicated parts.
Tier 3: This is where I mostly live and certainly built my early career into this with multi-storey office buildings (shell mostly but some fit-up). 50 to 400 million... Currently balls deep in multi building high-end marina low-rise condo buildings but done plenty of 100-500k sq.ft warehouse/shipping facilities.
I tend to do all my own stunts so outside of a partner's participation, I mostly run solo doing all parts, code, coordinations, drawings, on most projects in tier 1 and 2... and most of my tier 3.
Exact opposite! Awhile back I decide to focus on the hard stuff and let other people draw for me, barely know revit now. I focus on code issues and big picture type questions.
Aug 2, 24 3:39 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Lucky you have people to draw for you... we can't find anyone who can do this, at any exp level.
We're probably just outliers. Regardless - the tier concept is not only valid but super helpful!
I wonder if firms in larger areas tend to specialize more?
Aug 1, 24 10:52 am ·
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Non Sequitur
If it helps, I've only ever done one shipping container project... which is one too many. Not my choice but I had to step in after the lead arch on the job could not handle the complexity. (spoiler, it was a dumb and simple project).
Aug 1, 24 11:22 am ·
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Almosthip
I loath shipping containers as architecture. The stupidity of it. Our firm did 1 project with them and I say NEVER AGAIN!!
Tier 2: lots of strip malls, quick service restaurants, and grocery store renos. Thought it might turn into an architect as developer role, but work was too boring to stay long. Also pay kinda sucked with young kids at the time. (10 people)
Tier 3: switched to muni work, largish commercial, office renos, and small industrial work. This firm was purchased by a much larger firm where I got into tier 4 work. (15 people then 500)
Tier 4: Leveraged 2 years at the 500 ppl place to move to a 1000 peep firm. Large battery plants, 5 and 11 billion dollars each. Current project is only 2 billion. As you can imagine, these are large teams with a ton of other consultants. #2 on the arch side.
regarding compensation, pretty sure that if I'd be under 100k if still at the tier 2 place, 100k if still at the tier 3 place. 140k now.
I make about 30% less than that an I have 20 years experience. I think where I live a wee bit cheaper to live though (15% ? ). I still feel poor though because I can't not work. ;)
Aug 7, 24 10:01 am ·
·
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Salary Insights
I started to respond to the other post with the same title, but wanted to take it in a little different direction. Lots of discussion about salaries by firm size, but I don't think that is really appropriate as there are large firms working in pretty unprofitable sections. I suggest looking at salaries by firm project type. These can be similar to firm size but not exactly the same.
I suggest the hierarchy might be:
tier 1: single family residential
tier 2: small commercial, small multifamily, restaurants, tenant buildouts
tier 3: larger projects such as government (schools, DPW, etc) commercial, light industrial
tier 4: Specialties and large scale projects such as industrial, healthcare, sports, etc.
Thoughts?
tier 1: single family residential (luxury or standard?)
in any event, I don't think many firms do just one type of project. It may be the majority of their work, but classifying it this way would be difficult.
I think a lot of smaller firms are skewed significantly into one lane, at least if they intend to be profitable. Repetition creates efficiency, etc. We dabble in the occasional somethin or another, but when you really squint your eyes its 95% one project type just at various scales.
i understand, that's why i'm thinking in terms of tiers. Tier 1 architects can get into tier 2, but certainly not tier 3.
Where do corporate interiors fall?
thats a good question, i guess it depends on the scale and complexity. I spent almost 5 years at a tier 2 firm doing 30k sq. ft. interior renovations and a couple larger govenment projects. Pretty certain that I was the only one in the 15 person firm capable of doing these projects w/o a million mistakes.
interiors are funny too because they can be pretty complex, esp with existing conditions in older high rises. Is that your experience BB?
I've done my fair share, but haven't made a career out of it. I've done everything from highrises, convention centers, multifamily buildings, master plans, hospitality, and urban residential projects.
Also, firms that have multiple departments: you might be in a department that works on smaller projects, but the salaries for those employees are carried in part by the revenue from the bigger projects run by others in other departments in order to allow the firm as a whole to employ higher-caliber professionals across the board.
i found an architect facebook group a little while ago which seems to be mostly sfr architects complaining about low pay or asking elementary questions code questions regarding commercial projects.
I've worked at tiers 2, 3, and 4 firms, and really didn't see any overlap. Tier 2 firms like to think they can handle tier 3 projects, but they really have a hard time with the work if/when the get it. By the same token, its hard for firms to move down as the overhead rates just dont allow the firm to do the work and make any money.
Long story short, if you want to make living as an architect, specialize!
Very well put. I wish this was discussed in academia, somehow, because it's relevant and helpful info.
I've worked in all four tiers of project. (college intern to present). With the exception of my college intern days all the firms I've worked in did projects in the tier 2-4.
Heck. Right now I'm working on a fire station, high school, courthouse, and a 'salt shed' for a road and bridge department. Construction costs range from $350k - $200 million. :s
That seems unusual to me…
Curious about others exp
I think mine is a unique situation.
We're a 15 person firm that normally goes after civic, school, industrial, and commercial work. We work in a large geographic region that is comprised of smaller (under 500,000 pop). As such we have a wide range of work. The small buildings we work on are typically 'favors' to larger clients. IE: the 'salt shed' for a huge road and bridge department. We don't do single or multi family housing.
I think this is typical of firms in locations this. I've worked in several firms like this and you need a team that is experienced with a wide range of project experience. It's also important to partner with other firms that are experts in certain areas when needed.
This is my expressive experience 100%
Same. I've worked in every building type and construction type. I started my career at a firm that was the biggest and oldest one of three firms in a 90-mile radius. Every building everywhere you looked was designed by us -- university projects, hospitals, malls, schools, parking garages, medical clinics, banks, churches, city hall, multi-family, offices, industrial, preschool, warehouses, park pavilions, ballrooms, dormitories, we did it all. And I've continued to work in firms that do similar. It helped when it came time to pass the ARE's. I would be bored doing the same project over and over.
Over the last 15 years, I've hit dozens of projects in all of these categories and all within the same office. 15-20 staff across Arch, ID, tech.
I tend to do all my own stunts so outside of a partner's participation, I mostly run solo doing all parts, code, coordinations, drawings, on most projects in tier 1 and 2... and most of my tier 3.
I'm the same way.
Exact opposite! Awhile back I decide to focus on the hard stuff and let other people draw for me, barely know revit now. I focus on code issues and big picture type questions.
Lucky you have people to draw for you... we can't find anyone who can do this, at any exp level.
I do it all. Revit, renderings, codes, big picture, CA, mentoring, ect. I like to create!
dammit, you guys are ruining my thesis!
We're probably just outliers. Regardless - the tier concept is not only valid but super helpful!
I wonder if firms in larger areas tend to specialize more?
If it helps, I've only ever done one shipping container project... which is one too many. Not my choice but I had to step in after the lead arch on the job could not handle the complexity. (spoiler, it was a dumb and simple project).
I loath shipping containers as architecture. The stupidity of it. Our firm did 1 project with them and I say NEVER AGAIN!!
Tier 1: nada
Tier 2: lots of strip malls, quick service restaurants, and grocery store renos. Thought it might turn into an architect as developer role, but work was too boring to stay long. Also pay kinda sucked with young kids at the time. (10 people)
Tier 3: switched to muni work, largish commercial, office renos, and small industrial work. This firm was purchased by a much larger firm where I got into tier 4 work. (15 people then 500)
Tier 4: Leveraged 2 years at the 500 ppl place to move to a 1000 peep firm. Large battery plants, 5 and 11 billion dollars each. Current project is only 2 billion. As you can imagine, these are large teams with a ton of other consultants. #2 on the arch side.
regarding compensation, pretty sure that if I'd be under 100k if still at the tier 2 place, 100k if still at the tier 3 place. 140k now.
You make a lot!
lol, it’s all relative, neighbors are all doctors and lawyers, still feel poor!
I make about 30% less than that an I have 20 years experience. I think where I live a wee bit cheaper to live though (15% ? ). I still feel poor though because I can't not work. ;)
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