Because I stated in my post that I was aware of this resource already. While I do agree it’s a good resource I was moreso looking for advice/insight on the current job market regarding salary/if people are actually seeing job offers that correspond with the AIA Salary calculator and the Architect poll. Both are good resources but both also operate off of a very small sample size. I’m not looking for an exact figure, just asking what people are experiencing in terms of salary per experience level I understand there are nuances to this but it’s a general question that I was hoping to get conversation going on.

Chad, they are just salty because I pointed a filter by new option they were not aware of.

Yah that or you didn’t read my post.

Devrict123 - Non provided you with literally the best free resource available. You want 'better' data that applies directly to you. You're going to have to provide more information. 

•  Your exact location. 
•  Examples of your work. 
•  Your actual experience 
• Your progress in the AXP / ARE's

If you cannot provide that they we're not going to be able to give you an accurate answer.  

I will say this - the AIA salary calculator and the link Non posted are rather accurate.  

I think there is a miscommunication on what I am asking for and what is being provided, which is fine this is an internet forum and not the easiest thing to communicate with people you don't know on the internet. As I've said, I already had those resources and am aware of how to use them, thank you though. I'm not looking for an exact salary that I am deserving of, I am moreso asking if people are seeing/getting salaries advertised in the AIA salary calculator/archinect poll in the recent job market. I've heard from people in my area that the AIA salary calculator seems skewed high. I get I can look at the "data" but I would also like to hear from people/start conversation on what the job market is currently like. It's fine if I don't get that from this forum, but I did think I would get more information than "look at this resource that you already said you know about".

That makes more sense. 

 Unfortunately, the way you worded your OP didn't ask this. Your OP sounded like you simply didn't want to do any research and wanted to 'crowd source' information that would have a major impact in your life. AKA - you sounded lazy AF.

 If you had actually asked something like:

 "I've been looking at these online resources and was wondering how accurate they are. The few people I've been able to speak with are saying ______.  What has been other peoples experience with this?' 

 You would of gotten better answers.

Thanks for your feedback, although I feel that was implied when I stated I was already aware of those resources. Will try to word the questions better next time.

I've never heard of that. I have to get out more apparently.

I’ve sort of heard this rule of thumb before, my hesitation is when I was hired out of school 6 years ago I was making 55k in this same area. I was told that was a great salary out of school in my area of the country and I agreed compared to what other people that I graduated with started at. My issue is that I feel in interviews I’ve seen people perplexed that someone unlicensed would ask for 70k+ even though the AIA salary calculator and the archinect poll indicate that people are indeed making that much (and more) was just sort of curious on the current job market climate and how to present facts and figures on salary in an interview.

TBH this forum will be the smallest sample size of all, it's likely no one will be able to help you out with such specific information. I'm curious though, what do your friends/network experience in your area?

Someone I graduated with and is licensed in my area is salaried at 62k. Someone else I know that is unlicensed is at 65k. I do know and understand that salaries can vary so greatly I guess my best option is to just aim high in interviews and see where that gets me. I had an interview recently with a midsized firm and they were surprised that I was paid “so high” (their words) I guess that’s why I was inquiring because I met them with the AIA salary calculator and that seemed to blow them away in terms of salary. I work at a very small firm currently (6 employees - 2 principals, 1 receptionist, 2 project managers and 1 intern) just for additional context

Thanks for not contributing to my answer again

Do you only count answers that support exactly what you originally want to believe?

Considering NCARB themselves just released data that said the average candidate finishes their licensure process in 13.3 years post education it seems you’re the one that might need to do some research to support your answers. It’s
Your comment history alone shows how much you like to make passive aggressive snide remarks. It’s okay to just be quiet sometimes if you have nothing to contribute! Have a nice one.

Considering NCARB themselves just released data that said the average candidate finishes their licensure process in 13.3 years post education it seems you’re the one that might need to do some research to support your answers. It’s
Your comment history alone shows how much you like to make passive aggressive snide remarks. It’s okay to just be quiet sometimes if you have nothing to contribute! Have a nice one.

13 years? That's terrible. It was under 3 for me.

American licensure is pretty crappy Non'

I dunno Devrict123 - I completed my AXP (IDP back then) hours in five years. Back then you needed around 6,200 hours with any accredited degree. Now with an M.Arch you need around 3,700 hours.

Yah, I've been done logging my hours for several years as I interned throughout school and have been working full time for six years. The AXP hours aren't the only barrier to entry. Toss in a global pandemic that delayed testing for 2 years because of lack of accessibility to testing centers, life, and exams that have only a 50% pass rate it's not the easiest thing in the world to get licensed, NCARB's statistics acknowledge that. I am nearly done with my exams (1 more) but my post wasn't about being licensed or not, it was a question concerning salary for an unlicensed professional. I understand you can expect a salary bump when licensed, I think most people do, but that's not what I was asking or looking for insights on. I appreciate the feedback, though.

The pass rates for the ARE's haven't changed in 20 plus years.

 The exams are difficult. 

 You have to study hard. 

Your progress in the ARE's have a MAJOR impact in how much you make. That is why it's relevant to your question.

Why the thumbs down Devrict123? What I've told you is accurate. It's also based on 20 plus years experience in the field.

Everyone knows and acknowledges that you make more money and have a higher ceiling as a licensed professional, again, my question was not about that. Nobody is arguing against that. I am nearly licensed, but I am not yet, which is why I asked for salary insights on unlicensed professionals. The pass rates actually have changed, you can look at the data released by NCARB they release new data on pass rates every single year. Never said the exams are easy or should be easy, just presenting data to someone that said 6-8 years was plenty of time to get licensed, when NCARB clearly states it is not.

Again - how close you are to being licensed has a major impact on the pay for unlicensed interns. That is why it's relevant. 

As for the rest of your comments - you do you. I personally think 6-8 years is plenty of time to be licensed under 'normal' conditions. You're right that the pass rates for the ARE have changed. They've gone up to 58%. Twenty years ago they were around 50%.

https://www.ncarb.org/blog/are-pass-rate-data-2023#:~:text=Overall%20pass%20rates%20across%20all,largest%20increase%20across%20all%20divisions.

That is really depressing if true. Someone with 10 years of experience would only be worth 20-30K more than someone with no experience?!

betonbrut

How much more do you think someone should be paid? Say it's a 10 year / 1 year difference.

A good question. I would say it depends right. Years of experience doesn't tell the whole story, or even 50% of the story. But if someone was right out of school and then spent 10 years in a firm, or even a couple of firms, was licensed by then, and was slightly better than mediocre, I would like to think their compensation has doubled. The AIA pay scale doesn't support that, which is disappointing... Entry level on the west coast $65K compared to Arch III west coast at 103K. Though it is better than $3K/year… What I still find surprising is how poor the compensation for architects is. It is part of the reason I left traditional architectural practice and went to the GC side.

^ What is surprising is how inflated architects consider their value in the first place. Remember, just because you wasted 100k in tuition and spent 40hours per week rendering does mean you get 100k/y salaries.

I wonder if the pay in the larger metro areas are being limited by an abundance of architects and not enough work. 

I've never worked in a major metro area or large city. I graduated in 2002 (eeep) Within five years of graduating was making 1.8x my starting pay. I wasn't licensed and was paid hourly. I now make 4x my starting pay and am living quite comfortably.

Ratios are interesting to compare but depends on what your starting salary actually was. For instance at 55k (my starting salary out of school) 1.8x would be 99k… not realistic in today’s market especially for unlicensed professionals. I would agree with betonbrut to an extent — the level of education required and the number of exams/hours studying/internship (AXP) hours don’t really add up in terms of starting salary especially when compared to other professions that have similar education requirements. Not saying it’s not what we signed up for but also if architects have such an inflated value as Non said perhaps we shouldn’t be thrust into 5+ years of education, 6 exams, 3000+ internship hours, etc. seems like a profession with that many qualifications should have quite the value.

The cost of living of an area is also very important. 

I know interns with only a few years experience that make $75k in NYC. In my area the same level of skill and experience would get you around $40k. Then again the cost of living where I'm at is rather low and is roughly 1/3 that of NYC. 

As for the value: it's basic supply and demand. There are more architects than there are projects. Go to a larger metro area and you'll see firms reducing fees to get work because of the competition.  

Again, where you live and practice can have a big impact on how much you make and how comfortably you live.  

^Correct. You (and countless others) are fooled by the length and cost of arch education. This is why salaries are perceived as so low because too many still think that we're equivalent (or near eq) as lawyers and doctors. We're not, not even close and the compensation is a reflection of this. If only this was taught in school...

.

BTW - look at how long it takes to become a doctor.  It's about 12 years of constant school and residency.  It's not the same in any way to becoming an architect. 

Never compared it to being a doctor, but you can compare it easily to engineers who make significantly more than us (at least in my area). You can also compare it to financial planners, construction managers, CPAs, etc. there are a lot of professions that make more money than us for similar levels of schooling and post education requirements. I was fortunate and didn’t spend anything on my education as I went to a public state school and received numerous scholarships, I was lucky in that regard. Maybe I’m naive but I do think people who design spaces that people occupy everyday do have an incredible value, especially considering it’s engrained that we’re protecting the health, safety and welfare of the public. There’s a difference between a comfortable salary and one that is not livable on. I’m saying this as someone who is comfortable on my salary but when I hear about licensed professionals making less than me in my own area it is puzzling. Even people who I graduated with six years ago who were offered salaries in the low to mid 30,000s just seems unreasonable no matter the area of the country you live in. Especially in todays economy. Obviously this is not going to be solved in an archinect forum but it’s an interesting conversation. Regardless it is disheartening to hear from people with “experience” that the profession has inflated value.

I do think architecture has incredible value. The people who pay for it don't though. Hence why we don't make as much as some engineers. 

On that topic - the average pay for an architects and engineers are roughly equal. Engineers make about 10% more.  This will varry depending on the type of engineering (struct, mep, civil, materials, soils. ect).  Structural and Materials engineers make about 25% more than architects.  

Where engineers can make significantly more is when they get into a more specialized field and / or obtain higher levels of certification.

Read everyone else and agree with the feedback: years don't matter as much as proven experience with the role. Licensing matters a lot. People do take a long time getting licensed but there you go, that's a ceiling. Arch2s are capped at 77k, so as you can see, even if an individual has the experience and could potentially run things, since we can't put them in that role without licensure you can potentially get a $30k swing between two people with 8 years of experience because the licensed one is running jobs and the unlicensed one is drafting.

Thanks, this is very insightful!

I once worked with a non-licensed spec-writer who had 20 years of experience. He was making 96k a year. So I'm not sure there is necessarily a "cap", but for the most part that is true.

Our spec writer has about 30 years experience, and holds a Tech diploma from av
community

The first firm I worked at had a master spec writer. He had a technical degree and used to be drafter. He had 40+ years experience and did our specs, estimating, and QC'd drawings. He was the most valuable person in the firm.  When I left the firm in 2010 I believe he made right around six figures.  

Oops... He holds a Tech diploma from a community college and is obviously unlicensed. He also makes ~$100k/ year in a relatively low COL area. His experience is extremely valuable in terms of providing design, legal, and technical knowledge to less experienced staff (including myself). He's seen so much, he's often the much needed voice of reason when things get complicated

The guy I'm referring to was the same (he's passed now). Joe was his name. His favorite phrase was 'fucking architects'. I loved that guy.