In the construction documents phase, without taking into account structural and MEP drawings, there are more architectural drawings than in the design development stage?
...then yes, there are far more "drawings" in CD than in DD. CD is when all the shit gets figured out and coordinated. On large projects, a team can easily spend a year or more just in CD phase alone... But not all of those drawings are by architects.
But i am asking if there are more only “architecture”sheets in CD phase than in design development phase
Dec 19, 21 10:41 am ·
·
rcz1001
Take a moment of stop asking the same question over and over and listen... well read what is being said. The percentile of construction documents is that of architectural varies on a project by project basis. Additionally, it may consist of more large format sheets prepared by the architectural team then in prior phases of the project but that is not ALWAYS the case. Whether or not there is more "drawings" done during the construction document phase versus prior phases is a variable and depends on the project, the architect or architectural team's process. There can be a shit tone of scribbles and sketches done in prior phases but those work usually do not require as much time per sheet of drawing as construction documentation phase. If you are wondering why some architects may seem to have a disproportionate amount of of the pricing being in CD or being front-loaded in the beginning depends a lot on the nature of the business of architecture and issues relating to collecting fees. Many architects front loads so they can at least break even their cost even if they end up getting jipped by a non-paying client that isn't paying the final payment of the contract so they may lose their profit margin but ideally not lose more than that and end up their cost exceeding their account receivable on the project. Architects may do that because of shit clients.
Dec 20, 21 3:23 pm ·
·
Non Sequitur
All right stop, collaborate and listen. Ricky is back with a brand new invention. Something grabs a hold of you tightly; Flow like a harpoon daily and nightly.
Will it ever stop?
Yo, we don't know. Turn off the lights and I'll glow to the extreme. Ricky rocks a mic like a vandal.
Other architects may put a lot of their fee on the CD and that may reflect the hours' distribution but those architects may have good clients and not worry and are lucky to avoid taking it in the ass by clients. If you work on historic restoration work, you might find that you are spending more work during the earlier phases than you may do with new construction. Construction Document phase always consists of a lot of work.
And What are construction docs and What is the difference between design docs? Construction docs are also done by the architect?
Dec 19, 21 11:00 am ·
·
Non Sequitur
The "Architect" is actually a team of people which does include architects but also technologists and other design staff. Design docs are what is produced to bring design ideas together and sell the project to a client. Construction docs make that design into something that can be built. So things like fire-ratings and cladding details don't typically get resolved until CD phase, ditto for waterproofing and other important material coordination.
by123 - I answered this question for you last week. I'm trying to be helpful here but you keep asking the same questions over and over again despite getting answers.
I strongly suggest you speak with your high school teachers about setting up a job shadow with a local architect in order to get first hand answers to your questions.
In our office, DD and permit drawings get rolled into one nebulous phase of work, where we're collecting and coordinating drawings from our civil, structural, and sometimes septic engineers, as well as drawings needed for local permit requirements from landscape, or letters needed from Owner or G.C., as well as all the typical arch plans, sections, elevations, wall sections and details. Our CD set comes after permit, which usually only adds interior drawings, details, and schedules to the list.
Just in case you don't like to click links . . . .
My response to your post "Construction Documents"
"Short answer - the design isn't finished in SD and DD.
Longer but greatly simplified answer:
There are four standard phases in the design and construction of a project. There are also two additional phases that architects can be hired to perform that occur before SD.
Conceptual (additional service) - exploring big ideas and concepts
Programming (additional service) - deterring what and how much is in the building.
SD(15% of work)- general forms, layout, programming.
DD (20% of work) - providing more detail and thought into how the building goes together. Starting to determine what products and materials are in the project.
CD(55% of work) - creating the drawings that show how to construct the building. Finalizing the products and materials that are in the project.
CA (20% of work)- monitoring the construction process and making sure the project is built per the construction documents. Also solving any unforeseen issues with the building design that may occur during construction.
In the standard phases of a project the architect and all of the design consultants (civil, landscape architect, MEP, structural, audio visual, acoustical, ect) work together to come up with building design. It is the architects job to coordinate all of the work of the various consultants.
I hope this is helpful. I would recommend reaching out to a local architect to show you examples of the work done in each phase of a project. You'll be surprised how much is done in the CD phase.
For example, in a 100,000 sf middle school project for just the architectural drawings I did a few years ago
SD: 12 sheets, DD: 55 sheets, CD: 86 sheets"
Dec 20, 21 10:51 am ·
·
Non Sequitur
but Chad, what do you mean 55% of work in CD? How much of those drawings are drawn by the architect?
First, I wouldn't get too caught up on percentages in that regard as they are not always going to be the same for every project. I recognize it as being more typical especially for new construction. Some types of projects may be different and result in different distribution of percentage of the total hours of work. I know there is a difference in amount of time spent and where the percentage of hours are in for historic restoration, remodel, additions, etc. work compared to new construction design. This comes from experience which we all can agree can make the exact percentage being something that has variability.
Alright but even then for factual quality, the percentage numbers would be misleading and while you can give a greatly simplified answer without a potentially misleading answer or at least a short one liner indicating the percentages are typical to your experience with particular types of projects (such as new construction) or short caveat. Just saying because the post is going to have audiences that reads this other than that kid and even months or years later when some bot necros the thread.
Anyway, nothing personal. If the kid learns to read and actually read the posts and not ask again the same question or asking questions that is already sufficiently answered... that would be great.
Dec 20, 21 8:18 pm ·
·
ivanmillya
Rick, those percentages are standard fee breakdowns...It's not misleading, it's a simple average based on decades of data collected from offices. This is like, Pro Prac 101...
Construction Documents plans.
In the construction documents phase, without taking into account structural and MEP drawings, there are more architectural drawings than in the design development stage?
This is not how to do research for your high school homework.
This is not a high school task. Simply I want to know the role of different professions.
...then yes, there are far more "drawings" in CD than in DD. CD is when all the shit gets figured out and coordinated. On large projects, a team can easily spend a year or more just in CD phase alone... But not all of those drawings are by architects.
But there are more “architectural“ drawings in Construction documents Than in design development as well?
CD= construction docs
DD= design docs
yes. A shit-tonne more. Design is simpler than construction, hence why it typically has less drawings.
But i am asking if there are more only “architecture”sheets in CD phase than in design development phase
Take a moment of stop asking the same question over and over and listen... well read what is being said. The percentile of construction documents is that of architectural varies on a project by project basis. Additionally, it may consist of more large format sheets prepared by the architectural team then in prior phases of the project but that is not ALWAYS the case. Whether or not there is more "drawings" done during the construction document phase versus prior phases is a variable and depends on the project, the architect or architectural team's process. There can be a shit tone of scribbles and sketches done in prior phases but those work usually do not require as much time per sheet of drawing as construction documentation phase. If you are wondering why some architects may seem to have a disproportionate amount of of the pricing being in CD or being front-loaded in the beginning depends a lot on the nature of the business of architecture and issues relating to collecting fees. Many architects front loads so they can at least break even their cost even if they end up getting jipped by a non-paying client that isn't paying the final payment of the contract so they may lose their profit margin but ideally not lose more than that and end up their cost exceeding their account receivable on the project. Architects may do that because of shit clients.
All right stop, collaborate and listen. Ricky is back with a brand new invention. Something grabs a hold of you tightly; Flow like a harpoon daily and nightly.
Will it ever stop? Yo, we don't know. Turn off the lights and I'll glow to the extreme. Ricky rocks a mic like a vandal.
Light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle
Other architects may put a lot of their fee on the CD and that may reflect the hours' distribution but those architects may have good clients and not worry and are lucky to avoid taking it in the ass by clients. If you work on historic restoration work, you might find that you are spending more work during the earlier phases than you may do with new construction. Construction Document phase always consists of a lot of work.
I understand DD as design development phase
And CD as construction documents phase
i am asking if there are more only “architecture”sheets in CD phase than in design development phase, produced by architects
And What are construction docs and What is the difference between design docs? Construction docs are also done by the architect?
The "Architect" is actually a team of people which does include architects but also technologists and other design staff. Design docs are what is produced to bring design ideas together and sell the project to a client. Construction docs make that design into something that can be built. So things like fire-ratings and cladding details don't typically get resolved until CD phase, ditto for waterproofing and other important material coordination.
So the architect also participates in construction documents phase of big projects such as airports, stadiums and skyscrapers?
Obviously and participate is too light of a term. Quarterback is more appropriate. But it's a massive team-effort on that scale of project.
by123 - I answered this question for you last week. I'm trying to be helpful here but you keep asking the same questions over and over again despite getting answers.
I strongly suggest you speak with your high school teachers about setting up a job shadow with a local architect in order to get first hand answers to your questions.
Thanks
In our office, DD and permit drawings get rolled into one nebulous phase of work, where we're collecting and coordinating drawings from our civil, structural, and sometimes septic engineers, as well as drawings needed for local permit requirements from landscape, or letters needed from Owner or G.C., as well as all the typical arch plans, sections, elevations, wall sections and details. Our CD set comes after permit, which usually only adds interior drawings, details, and schedules to the list.
bydocoma123 - I already answered this question of yours last week.
https://archinect.com/forum/th...
Just in case you don't like to click links . . . .
My response to your post "Construction Documents"
"Short answer - the design isn't finished in SD and DD.
Longer but greatly simplified answer:
There are four standard phases in the design and construction of a project. There are also two additional phases that architects can be hired to perform that occur before SD.
Conceptual (additional service) - exploring big ideas and concepts
Programming (additional service) - deterring what and how much is in the building.
SD (15% of work)- general forms, layout, programming.
DD (20% of work) - providing more detail and thought into how the building goes together. Starting to determine what products and materials are in the project.
CD (55% of work) - creating the drawings that show how to construct the building. Finalizing the products and materials that are in the project.
CA (20% of work)- monitoring the construction process and making sure the project is built per the construction documents. Also solving any unforeseen issues with the building design that may occur during construction.
In the standard phases of a project the architect and all of the design consultants (civil, landscape architect, MEP, structural, audio visual, acoustical, ect) work together to come up with building design. It is the architects job to coordinate all of the work of the various consultants.
I hope this is helpful. I would recommend reaching out to a local architect to show you examples of the work done in each phase of a project. You'll be surprised how much is done in the CD phase.
For example, in a 100,000 sf middle school project for just the architectural drawings I did a few years ago
SD: 12 sheets, DD: 55 sheets, CD: 86 sheets"
but Chad, what do you mean 55% of work in CD? How much of those drawings are drawn by the architect?
First, I wouldn't get too caught up on percentages in that regard as they are not always going to be the same for every project. I recognize it as being more typical especially for new construction. Some types of projects may be different and result in different distribution of percentage of the total hours of work. I know there is a difference in amount of time spent and where the percentage of hours are in for historic restoration, remodel, additions, etc. work compared to new construction design. This comes from experience which we all can agree can make the exact percentage being something that has variability.
Missed the part were I said this was a 'greatly simplified answer' didn't ya Rick. ;)
greatly simplified = applies to all conceivable conditions ... right?
Alright but even then for factual quality, the percentage numbers would be misleading and while you can give a greatly simplified answer without a potentially misleading answer or at least a short one liner indicating the percentages are typical to your experience with particular types of projects (such as new construction) or short caveat. Just saying because the post is going to have audiences that reads this other than that kid and even months or years later when some bot necros the thread.
Anyway, nothing personal. If the kid learns to read and actually read the posts and not ask again the same question or asking questions that is already sufficiently answered... that would be great.
Rick, those percentages are standard fee breakdowns...It's not misleading, it's a simple average based on decades of data collected from offices. This is like, Pro Prac 101...
Rick - Actually for our firm the breakdown is 20% SD 20% DD 35% CD and 25% CA. What I posted above is the standard fee breakdown per AIA contracts.
EA - greatly simplified always applies to all conceivable conditions.
ALWAYS!
Except when it doesn't. ;)
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