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What dystopia are we currently slipping into?

588
x-jla

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it”  -Orwell

Which dystopia are we slipping into?  

brave new world?  Brazil?  1984?  


 
Nov 26, 21 4:42 pm
Non Sequitur

I have my money placed on false-intellectual contrarianism

Nov 26, 21 5:14 pm  · 
5  · 
midlander

bitcoin then?

Nov 26, 21 10:20 pm  · 
 · 

A global Dark Age. 

Reference A Canticle for Lebowitz.

Nov 26, 21 5:30 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

Probably Idiocracy (2006) or Soilent Green (1974)



Nov 26, 21 8:28 pm  · 
2  · 
midlander

metatopia

Nov 26, 21 9:49 pm  · 
1  · 
midlander

i think you got my joke without realizing it was a joke ;)

Nov 26, 21 10:19 pm  · 
2  · 
ae_0

I know it's somewhat fashionable for every era to consider itself to be some sort of an apocalyptic milestone.. but for whatever this era is turning into, "neo-feudalism" (often abused but still engaging term) is quite apt in my opinion.

Nov 27, 21 11:02 am  · 
2  ·  1
tduds

..what

Nov 29, 21 3:25 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

The cia, fbi, executive, big tech, big pharma, corporate media, mainstream narratives, etc... are talking about neo-feudalism?

Nov 29, 21 3:50 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

I dunno what you're on about but I can be aware of imperialism and social justice at the same time. I can even do stuff about one while other people are working hard to address the other. Saying we need to ignore injustice to focus on imperialism is just as bad as saying we need to ignore imperialism to focus on injustice. 

For what it's worth I think "neo-feudalism" is the most resonant term that's been used in this thread so far.

Nov 29, 21 4:34 pm  · 
1  · 
katieclaypool

I hear what you are saying, and I agree. It's all a lie & that is where religion comes into play. Satan says "Do what thou wilt" While God promises blessings according to obedience to his design. People want to make Jesus the enemy because he limits what is "Allowed/acceptable" or "Pleasing in his sight

Dec 9, 21 1:49 pm  · 
 · 
JLC-1

THIS ONE https://archinect.com/people/p...

Nov 28, 21 2:11 pm  · 
1  · 

the one where people argue over decorative boulder placement apparently 

Nov 28, 21 10:15 pm  · 
6  ·  1
tduds

Seems important to first make the case that we are slipping into a dystopia before we bicker about which type.

Nov 29, 21 1:31 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

That's a feeling not a case.

Nov 29, 21 3:51 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

"Propaganda" is not a singular or neutral word, so different examples of it can be used to demonstrate many unrelated things. I suppose two would be nice, since one of anything is insufficient to show direction.

Nov 29, 21 4:30 pm  · 
1  · 

Or you're intelligent enough to study history and realize that we're not slipping into a dystopian society. You're also intelligent enough to recognize conspiracy theories and fear mongering.

Nov 30, 21 10:45 am  · 
3  ·  1
tduds

It would be much easier to simply describe your own observations than to continually insist I already know about them. Even if I do, it's good to establish a common set of events that we can start from. Otherwise how are we to know that we're even talking about the same things?

Nov 30, 21 12:07 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

The thing is, I agree with you on a lot of this, but very likely disagree about the players, the direction, and the examples. Which is why you should provide some. If they exist it should be very easy.

Nov 30, 21 12:28 pm  · 
1  · 

x-jla - provide proof of what you're saying . . .

You made the statements - the onus of proof is on you.  

Notice I didn't say that I disagreed with you.  

Nov 30, 21 2:02 pm  · 
1  · 

Uhg - 70% of what you just wrote isn't true. Where are you getting this information. Provide sources and links please.

Nov 30, 21 2:55 pm  · 
1  ·  1

Rittenhouse - no proof of racist associations

SUV killer not being named 

Russian dossier not having evidence at the time of reporting, and when evidence became suspect that it wasn't reported on

Denial of scientific data on natural immunity.

Ivermectin clogging hospitals - every bit of reporting I encountered about it said that their was no proof of that happening.  

Big Pharma controlling MSM

FBI entrapment for the kidnapping plot


I'm ignoring all of your 'commentary' regarding your own personal opinions.  


Be sure to show widespread, continuous falsehoods being reported as fact for these.  Simply showing one bad report that was later corrected isn't going to cut it.   

Dec 1, 21 1:02 pm  · 
1  · 

I don't care about your opinion or what you 'knew'.  

Keep on topic.  

Provide sources for the claims I listed above.  Provide sources that the 'media' knew they were providing false information and / or kept reporting false information after being shown sources that refuted it. 

Dec 1, 21 7:44 pm  · 
 · 
z1111

Chad you know the whole point of his tirades
threads is to cultivate mistrust in the media, and government, throw some crap at liberals, and socialism.

Dec 1, 21 9:24 pm  · 
 · 
z1111

*and*

Dec 1, 21 9:32 pm  · 
 · 

Still waiting for those sources x-jla.

Dec 2, 21 2:30 pm  · 
 · 

Nice try x-jla. You said you could easily provide evidence. Now you say you won't. 

You have zero credibility.

Dec 3, 21 9:59 am  · 
 · 

You're the one who made the claims. You further claimed it was easy to find sources that supported your claims. I simply asked you for these sources. Now you're saying that not only are the sources hard to find but you don't want to supply them because you think I won't accept them.  That's bullshit.  

Sounds to me like you don't trust your own sources and realize you've been caught lying.  

You have zero credibility.  

Dec 3, 21 12:11 pm  · 
 · 

You posted one opinion piece on one of the seven items you said you could easily prove.

The article you posted called out already known information that's been widely reported by many news outlets - CNN, MSN, NPR, ect.  A lot of speculation was reported at the time of shooting - that is correct and I can't stand that.  However very few news organizations continued to report those initial speculations once more information became available. 

The article you linked also stated that at the time of the shooting Rittenhouse wasn't associated with any white supremacy groups.  That's correct and also something reported by nearly all of the news outlets.  However, between his arrest and trial  he became associated with the Proud Boys.  That has been reported quite a bit by various news organizations. 

You're spewing half truths and outright lies. To me that means you have zero credibility.  

Do you want to provide any proof on the other six claims you made?


Dec 5, 21 6:02 pm  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

You keep misaligning concepts, hegemonic ideologies within a racial construct. "Imperialist white supremacist capitalist patriarchy" is at the very heart of trumpist narrative, and if that is true, then anyone connected, is part of that construct.

Dec 5, 21 8:12 pm  · 
 · 

x-jla - The proud boys are indeed a white supremacist group. They call themselves a male white nationalist group but it's the same thing.

Dec 6, 21 10:50 am  · 
 ·  1
b3tadine[sutures]

anti-antifa = fascists

Dec 6, 21 2:24 pm  · 
1  · 

x-jla - you are incorrect about the proud boys not being a white supremist, white nationalist organization.  Even the new leader of the proud boys says they are a white supremist group back in 2020. If you'd have read any of the articles I linked you'd realize that.

Now stop avoiding posting sources for the other six claims you made.  

Come on.  Provide those sources you promised.  

Dec 6, 21 2:48 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

Unless an alternative system can withstand the test of time and perform as well or better, then this is the best we have.

there were different systems before capitalism emerged, and there will be others. this is such a bizarre argument that goes against anything you believe in as a designer, unless your company motto is "if it ain't broke don't fix it" - which would negate the need to design anything (new).

Dec 6, 21 3:11 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

your views on capitalism sound quasi-religious, more of a belief or act of faith. i'm not suggesting i can predict what economic systems will exist in the future, but what is certain is that something else will emerge, just like capitalism before it. unless capitalism runs a likely course of depleting any and all resources in its path, thus eliminating the possibility of any other system to emerge.

Dec 6, 21 4:57 pm  · 
1  ·  1
b3tadine[sutures]

Let's do Communization. Something I just learned about today.

Dec 6, 21 5:11 pm  · 
1  · 

x-jla - provide sources for the remaining six I listed. 

 You asked for specifically asked which of your comments I thought were BS and needed sources. I gave you a list. The onus of proof is on you.  

When you asked for sources that stated the proud boys where a white supremist group I provided them. 

Dec 6, 21 6:24 pm  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Abolish the state.

Dec 7, 21 5:17 am  · 
1  · 
tduds

Who could have predicted this thread would get so heated?

Dec 7, 21 12:29 pm  · 
1  · 

x-jla wrote:

 "I may be wrong about the proud boys. I really don’t know. It’s just hard to imagine that the msm got something correct."

That right there is why you have no credibility.  

You make assumptions based on your opinions without understanding what you're talking about yet present it as factual.  The worst part is you know you're doing this.  

I'd dare say you are a liar.  

Dec 7, 21 2:23 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

"I had written 50 pages or so worth of reports (2 reports) with citation in 2 DAYS" 

Well that, at least, I have no trouble believing.

Dec 7, 21 3:16 pm  · 
2  · 
square.

But, the ideal human organization imo is something more like a high-tech hunter gatherer society. Like an Ewok village or something.

Clown Conancon2019 GIF by Team Coco

Dec 7, 21 3:19 pm  · 
 · 
square.

you do realize the empire is the technocratic, capitalistic (which necessitates imperialism) society in your metaphor, right?

there's only one way vader was able to acquire all the resources to build that death star..

Dec 7, 21 3:33 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

The fact that Ivermectin is not *only* a horse dewormer does not undo the fact that many, many people were literally ingesting horse dewormer. *That's* the story, which you'd know if you'd read the stories.

Dec 7, 21 3:34 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

capitalism cannot exist without a robust state to not only protect the capitalists who don't have the resources to alone maintain the physical and human infrastructure required to aquire more capital, but also for the expansion of that infrastructure and taking of more resources needed to run it. also it is the way in which these resources are required which makes it distinct- i think it's a little obvious that no human economic system can exist without acquiring resources? elementary. though subtlety has never been your game.

come on man, this is basic stuff. nothing i'm saying is controversial and any sane economist would agree. you believe in a fictionalized version of "free enterprise" capitalism that is isolated from any understanding of political power structures, which is an oxymoron.

Dec 7, 21 4:14 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

even rick gets it buddy.

Dec 7, 21 5:56 pm  · 
2  · 
square.

You will not solve the problems that you are blaming on capitalism by removing capitalism because those problems are not unique to capitalism and are actually being suppressed by it overall

xlax, i'm not suggesting any of these things (if you actually read what i wrote it would become quite clear)- rather this is what you want me to say so that we get into the stupid type of argument you love.. i'm merely explaining to you the lack of understanding and critical thinking in your statements about how capitalism actually exists in the world.

Dec 8, 21 11:19 am  · 
1  · 
tduds

I think the disconnect here is that everyone means different things when they say "capitalism" , because no one in this discussion has tried to define it yet.

Dec 8, 21 12:03 pm  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

DicProl. Another thing I learned! And I'm loving it.

Dec 8, 21 1:37 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

I've definitely said this before elsewhere but I'd argue that "Capitalism" is not a thing that "is" or "is not", but a thing that exists in various degrees across a spectrum. The argument you should be having is what place(s) that spectrum best fulfill the mission of the system, which is to create and sustain abundance for humanity. I'd suggest that whatever balance we have now has either run its course, or has been mis-calibrated since the beginning. It's a fair argument to say that "overthrow capitalism entirely" is misguided, but it's perhaps a fairer argument to say that "continue along this path with no change" is inhumane. We should speak in terms of continuums and proportions, not extremes.

Dec 8, 21 5:04 pm  · 
2  · 

You still have capitalism with democratic socialism. Just look at Finland, Sweden, Australia, Great Britten, Germany, France, oh and America.

Dec 8, 21 6:55 pm  · 
3  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Capitalism, allows for freedom of speech, that's some straight ass, bullshiiiiiiit.

Dec 8, 21 8:29 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

Out with it. We have no time for allusions and half-clever rhetoric.

Dec 8, 21 9:43 pm  · 
2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

You're a know-nothing, capitalist, anarchist, Libertarian, d00d. That you think it takes capitalism to create, is laughable. The boss doesn't even need a leash for this dog, it stays where ever the boss points, and eats the shitty pottage. Sit boy, sit.

Dec 9, 21 6:30 am  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Art = Speech =/= CaPiTalISM

Dec 9, 21 7:55 am  · 
1  · 
square.

fuck folk art man! northwest coast indigenous art? lame.

jeff koons?? now that's REAL art.

Dec 9, 21 9:07 am  · 
2  · 
square.

You obviously are incapable of critical thinking

stop stealing my lines; at least come up with an original dig.

the fact that you think art is possible only through capitalism shows both your lack of understanding of history, and especially art, and why "arguing" with you "point" for "point" is as useless as punching the wind.

Dec 9, 21 11:45 am  · 
1  · 
square.

here you go arguing with your old pal scarecrow.

Dec 9, 21 11:51 am  · 
1  · 

Is x-jla still talking? 

 Why? 

 He's clearly not going to convince people that his opinions are correct. He's not correcting false information in the hopes that an uninformed person will come across it. It seems to me like x-jla posts are pure ego. He wants to convince himself that he is correct and comes here to hear himself talk. 

 X-jla doesn't talk like this in person. This speaks volumes to his credibility.

Dec 9, 21 12:18 pm  · 
3  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Laxative, my boots need cleaning, get to it.

Dec 9, 21 12:22 pm  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Question lax, if your boss dies, does it matter to how you do your work? I mean aside from needing permission to pee and poop.

Dec 9, 21 12:23 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

We're still not using a mutually agreed upon definition of "capitalism" here.

Dec 9, 21 12:25 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

tduds, that level of intellectual rigor is irrelevant when chatting with our old buddy here; i find it more entertaining to expose the absurdities.

Dec 9, 21 1:15 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

I would imagine in a post-scarcity society, people would create art simply for the joy of it. Once you remove starvation/poverty as a consequence of lack-of-profit, the idea that all creation must be motivated by profit seems less ubiquitous.

Dec 9, 21 1:26 pm  · 
2  · 

How about you provide the sources you promised for those six original claims you made?

Dec 9, 21 1:26 pm  · 
2  · 
square.

a few questions for you:

has subversive art ever existed before capitalism?

what does it mean to be subversive? why is it essential to your definition of art?

does art need to be subversive in order to be important, or "good," or more generally defined as art?

if we for a minute accept your premise... why might there be more subversive art under capitalism?

is there something more worthy of subversion than before?

why might one need to subvert, through art, the very system that is responsible for its creation (again assuming your assumptions....)?

Dec 9, 21 1:29 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

questions can be answered with questions. if you want to stop playing checkers, let me know.

Dec 9, 21 1:32 pm  · 
1  · 

Those resources don't need to come from capitalisms. Look at native art. Look at art in countries like China, Vietnam, Cuba, Russia, Belgium, Bangladesh, Egypt, and Greece as just a few examples.

Dec 9, 21 2:08 pm  · 
1  · 
proto

A lot of "doth protest too much" in here. I wonder when it translates to understanding that the critical position is not fundamentally sound.

Dec 9, 21 2:13 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

I think it goes without saying that a post-scarcity society would have an abundance of resources.

Dec 9, 21 2:25 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

Art can (and perhaps should) subvert cultural mores, which exist independent of a "state"

Dec 9, 21 3:01 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Why does freedom of speech require capitalism?

Dec 9, 21 3:30 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Why does freedom of speech require capitalism?

Dec 9, 21 3:34 pm  · 
2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Communism does not, let me reiterate, DOES NOT, have a singular figure to make decisions. A dictatorship of the Proletariat is not a singular person. You're insipid, and elementary examples of Stalin and Mao, only prove that you don't know what you are talking about.

Dec 9, 21 5:45 pm  · 
2  ·  1

x-jla wrote: 

'Art in and of itself does not require capitalism. Freedom of speech does though. Freedom of expression does. Do you value those things? If not, this is a useless conversation'

Art is freedom of expression.  If you have art you have freedom of expression.  

Just like free speech, freedom of expression has consequences.  You can say what you want and create any art you want.  You could face consequences though. 

Capitalisms doesn't keep you free from those consequences.  

Dec 9, 21 5:50 pm  · 
1  ·  1
tduds

b3ta makes a good point, that every real life example of a government that people call "communist" is more accurately "Stalinist."

And, pre-emptively: No this is not an inevitable outcome. It' simply springs from the fact that no pre- or post-Soviet communist nations exist. 

Also, pre-emptively: This is not a defense or endorsement of anything, merely a clarification of terms that accounts for historical context.

Dec 9, 21 6:07 pm  · 
2  · 
square.

as always, see the marx thread... xlax only operates in broad, sweeping generalizations that become too sprawling and unwieldy for him to handle, until he inevitably gets distracted by the next shiny, dumb, culture-war based argument.

Dec 9, 21 6:19 pm  · 
3  · 
z1111

I will point out that this particular individual did not lift a finger (voted for "J******") to help prevent this country from being taken over by a dictator. So all of his talk about freedom is meaningless rambling by a troll.

Dec 10, 21 2:48 am  · 
 · 

x-jla wrote:

"Marx was a utopian idiot…one of the most over rated idiots of all time…and his philosophy has killed more than any other . . ."

Care to provide proof to back up this statement?  

Dec 10, 21 10:11 am  · 
2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

It's real fun watching x-la try to expound on Marxist theory, tremendous fun. That pinch collar is tugging hard. He'd rather live under the yoke of capitalism, than to trust the real workers. I mean fuck, Starbucks has a union, and I'm guaranteeing you that if the boss got into a car wreck today, that fucking Starbucks will run like a smooth V12, and the workers will enjoy their day.

Dec 10, 21 10:17 am  · 
 · 

The funny thing is there a quite a few companies where the workers are the owners. They seem to run just fine and still make a lot of money.

Dec 10, 21 11:14 am  · 
2  · 
tduds

I'm curious how much Marx jla has read firsthand.

Dec 10, 21 11:27 am  · 
2  · 

Show me on the doll x-jla where the proletariat hurt you.

Show me on this doll Blank Template - Imgflip

Dec 10, 21 2:22 pm  · 
3  · 

x-jla doesn't seem to understand that he is a proletariat.

Dec 10, 21 2:56 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

“Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results”. 

Listen, man, you made the thread.

Dec 10, 21 3:44 pm  · 
2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Listen, laxative, you seem to think you have me over a barrel, but you're a simp. I'd love to work with others of a similar mindset, where we made a collective decision about the kind of work we'd do, and not do. That would be the joy of my life. To be fulfilled in that way, fucking nirvana.

Dec 10, 21 4:04 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

Why do you keep saying "marxism" and "communism" when I've already pointed out that what you're talking about is Stalinism?

Dec 10, 21 5:25 pm  · 
2  ·  1
tduds

"within a capitalistic liberal system those “pocket utopias” like those firms you describe can exist." 

for what it's worth this idea actually aligns pretty well with my personal views. I'm just here to blow the whistle at your historical & rhetorical missteps ;)

Dec 10, 21 5:28 pm  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

"Sir, this is an architecture firm, we as a worker collective, have decided against creating "art", we do architecture. Artists, do art. Like Starbucks workers make Venti Cappuccinos."

Dec 10, 21 6:19 pm  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

I think lax forgets how a true democracy works; you can dissent, you get a vote, but if you don't have the numbers, well. I guess it's more free time for you. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"

Dec 10, 21 6:23 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Why should b3ta's architecture firm fund your shitty movie?

Dec 10, 21 6:46 pm  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

x-jla, i know you want a participation trophy, but even in Marxism, there are losers. You just don't get proletarian support for for your donkey fetish film.

i hope you realize, that what you are asking for is tyranny of the state. to demand that you are supported in your creation of movie about mindless ants, is literally the very definition state sponsored capitalism.


Dec 10, 21 7:10 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

He doesn't have a film studio though.

Dec 10, 21 7:32 pm  · 
1  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Communism 101:

"Private property, to a communist, is not your shoes or toothbrush, or even your house.

Those things are called personal property and under socialism and under communism they continue to belong to workers in much the same manner as they do now.

When Marxists speak of private property under capitalism, it refers to the tools of production that should be owned by all of society, such as factories, lands, stores, mines and all those things that are gifts of nature or are built by many people over many centuries, but are now being monopolized by a few. These few don’t concern themselves with how many years of human labor went into their creation, just so long as they alone can reap profits from legal ownership of that property."


Dec 11, 21 1:31 pm  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Art In Communism

Dec 11, 21 1:39 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

“Think for a second about how crappy everything would be. Comedy? Music? Film? I can’t think of a less fun world.”

It’s actually the opposite, it’s the constraints, the limitations that get the creative juices flowing. Just think about Dziga Vertov’s Kino Eye, Tarkovksy’s oeuvre or Stanisław Lem’s Sci-Fi, Polish poetry, Tatlin’s Tower or Constructivism in general or the stop-motion surrealism of Jan Švankmajer, etc., etc., etc.

Dec 11, 21 4:10 pm  · 
2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

I'm actually flabbergasted to learn that "In a society with private property the state does not get involved". Then what are zoning codes, what is eminent domain? What are mortgages? All state interventions, to mediate the bourgeois, land owning class.

Dec 11, 21 5:26 pm  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

YouTube

Dec 12, 21 6:15 am  · 
 · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Dave Chapelle doesn't need Netflix, he wants Netflix. He could have a career touring, doing shows on his farm. He wants more money than he needs. He. Is...wait for it....a capitalist.

Dec 12, 21 6:20 am  · 
 · 
square.

Marx was a utopian idiot…one of the most over rated idiots of all time…and his philosophy has killed more than any other…

once again, i am here to tell you that statements like this prove that xlax hasn't read a word of marx and only knows how to parrot newsmax level propaganda about something he has no actual understanding of.

even the most conservative economists will concede that marx was one of the most important, and effective, analysts of capitalism; he even had positive things to say about it! but this level of nuance is way over the head of xlax.

Dec 13, 21 8:55 am  · 
1  · 
square.

please share what you have read, as well as a few of your favorite quotes.

you won't though, evidenced by this schizophrenic thread in which you started talking about 1984 and have touched on every shiny object possible, and of course somehow have arrived at marx yet again. it's just the same record spinning over and over.


Dec 13, 21 11:49 am  · 
2  · 

x-jla

You're not special. 

You're not unique. 

You're ideas aren't new.

Your existence isn't sheltering anyone from anything.

Your existence isn't holding society together. 

You don't know something special that others don't. 

The government doesn't care what you're saying.

No one is after you. 


Grow up little man.  Go out and do something productive and progressive with your life.  

Dec 13, 21 1:46 pm  · 
2  · 

I treat you with the respect and credibility that you disserve.

Nothing I've said to you has been ad hominem.  

Dec 13, 21 2:19 pm  · 
1  · 

x-jla - this portion of the conversation was originally about the claims you made that liberal media is lying.  I asked for examples and proof of this.  You gave us:

1. Rittenhouse - no proof of racist associations

2. SUV killer not being named 

3. Russian dossier not having evidence at the time of reporting, and when evidence became suspect that it wasn't reported on

4. Denial of scientific data on natural immunity.

5. Ivermectin clogging hospitals - every bit of reporting I encountered about it said that their was no proof of that happening.  

6. Big Pharma controlling MSM

7. FBI entrapment for the kidnapping plot

You asked for sources showing #1 was in fact correct.  I showed that the Proud Boys were a racist organization.  I asked for sources for the other six claims you made.

You provided nothing.  You then shifted to the capitalisms being required for subversive art.  I provided lists of country's that do not have a capitolist economy that also produce subversive art.  

You still haven't provided sources of your previous seven claims and nothing that supports your claim about the art.  


Dec 13, 21 3:07 pm  · 
2  · 
square.

because you dopes are the ones making the outlandish claims that capitalism is not important to the functioning of society against all evidence.

i never said this, or anything remotely close.

i haven't "claimed" any such things one way or the other, because i can admit that i'm not an expert and it sound ludicrous for someone like me to say they know what is best for society. the only thing i have done is expose the absurdity of your claims.

Dec 13, 21 3:32 pm  · 
 · 

x-jla - No. 

 You made all the claims. 

You said that it was obvious and easy to prove your claims were correct. 

You need to provide sources that back up all of your claims. If you don't then what you've said can be dismissed.

You already attempted to provide a source for #1. It turned out to not be true and your excuse was that you "assumed nothing MSM said was correct".

This is why you don't have any credibility.  

Dec 13, 21 5:10 pm  · 
2  · 

x-jla wrote:

 "I don’t have to provide “evidence” on demand. You provide evidence to the contrary. Dimwit."

Incorrect. 

You made the claims, you provide the evidence that supports your claims.  If you aren't able or willing to provide such evidence then your claims can be dismissed as bullshit and you have zero credibility. 

Dec 14, 21 1:13 pm  · 
 · 

I have no idea what the "Justice for Jussie" moment was / is. As for the rest of your claims.

x-jla wrote:

"a) there is an overwhelming amount of evidence for each. "

Should be easy for you to provide the evidence then. 


x-jla wrote:

"b) any reasonable person knows all these claims to be true based on observation-as long as we are in the same universe and not trapped in some echo chamber "

You thought the the Proud Boys weren't a white supremacist group simply because MSN had said they were.  That's not reasonable nor based on observation.  Hence why providing sources that back up your claims are needed. 


x-jla wrote:

"c) my claims are doing exactly what a citizen should do, question the media be govt narrative and so it’s the burden of the media and those parroting its narrative to prove the bold claims that it’s making like"

You can question all you want.  If you're going to make claims you still need to provide sources.  Regardless if you're a reporter or not.  If you don't then your claims can be disregarded and you loose all credibility.  


Provide sources for the remaining six claims you made. 

Dec 15, 21 11:34 am  · 
 · 

You're not defending your observations though. You're making statements that require some form of proof to be true yet you're providing none.

Dec 15, 21 11:55 am  · 
1  · 

x-jla wrote: 

“I’m not arguing with you Chad. I’m simply posting my observations. Take it or leave it.” 

You are arguing though. A debate is exchanging views that are based on sources that collaborate said views. Both sides in a debate learn something.

x-jla wrote: 

 “I don’t feel compelled to convince anyone. Like I said, that’s not my job or my concern.” 

Yes, you are. You’re actively trying to defend your opinions. For that to happen you need to convince others that your opinions are genuine and accurate. 

 x-jla wrote: 

“I’m in here for entertainment and discourse. I'm (sic) not in here to prove you wrong if that’s what you think. I’m defending my positions because that’s how debates work. “ 

Yes you are here to prove other wrong. See my statement above as to why. If not then you’re here just to hear yourself talk. 

 x-jla wrote: 

“I’ll be glad to be proven wrong. You guys are just not playing the same game sometimes. It’s like you get offended by my positions.”

You don’t seem to be. When presented with accurate options based in fact you change the subject or ask people to provide sources to prove a negative. 

 I’m not offended by your positions.

I’m offended by your lack of credibility and hypocrisy. You won’t provide sources to back up your view yet require sources from others. You change the subject when proven incorrect. Yet you accuse other of ‘not playing the same game’ when they won’t allow you to change the subject.


Provide the sources to your original seven claims.  

Dec 15, 21 12:17 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

"I’m simply posting my observations. Take it or leave it." 

Leavin' it.

Dec 15, 21 1:28 pm  · 
2  · 

I've never paid much attention to x-jla.  I only acknowledge his existence when he posts outright lies that are quantifiable. I've always viewed him as a cowardly troll with low self esteem. Hence why I've only been asking him for sources to back up his claims.

Dec 15, 21 2:34 pm  · 
2  · 
On the fence

Id go with 1984

Nov 29, 21 2:55 pm  · 
1  · 
reallynotmyname

This one predicted by Carl Sagan:

https://www.goodreads.com/quot...

Nov 29, 21 4:10 pm  · 
1  · 

That just describes where we are, not where we are going.

Nov 29, 21 4:16 pm  · 
2  · 
reallynotmyname

Sure, but I think the current state of affairs will persist because it works pretty well for those currently holding the levers of power.

Nov 29, 21 4:30 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

"when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness"

Oh boy, could that man write.

Nov 29, 21 4:36 pm  · 
3  · 
square.

looks like his work has slowed down again- combination of winter and supply chain issues, i'm guessing.

Nov 29, 21 4:39 pm  · 
2  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

Long Thanksgiving break, and waiting for the Omicron to ravage us.

Nov 29, 21 4:48 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

Nu is too close to nu-metal. Don't want this new varient to bring back LimpBizkit...

Nov 30, 21 9:48 am  · 
2  · 
tduds

I had a great conversation last night about this with my journalist sister-in-law. Everything about the new variant is being blown out of proportion, but I'm not buying the "convenient scapegoat" argument. More like a convenient panic. When your paycheck is dictated by eyeballs, it's an easy way to get a lot of eyeballs to your story. Good journalism would be to extrapolate from what little we already know. Bad journalism is exploiting what we don't know. None of the "knowns" about omicron are particularly concerning, only the unknowns are hypothetically concerning (and, imo, these are unlikely hypotheticals). Omicron is no better or worse than Delta or any other variant so far. I'm not changing my behavior, nor are any of the people I trust as experts, nor should you. Turn off the TV and ignore the front page, they're just desperate for engagement.

Nov 30, 21 12:38 pm  · 
2  · 
Non Sequitur

#prophet

Nov 30, 21 1:17 pm  · 
2  · 

Here's an intelligent read on what's going on, easy to extrapolate where we are headed:

The NATOstan Clown Show

In WWII Russia was invaded 1,000 miles deep by Germany. Russia lost over 25m people. This is their national heritage. Everyone fought: men, women, and children. They will never let that happen again.

That's the equivalent of a foreign invader landing on the east coast, reaching the Mississippi, and killing 20% of the population.

The US has no basis for comparison, no understanding, no compassion. Crossing Russia's Red Lines could very well be apocalyptic.

Nov 29, 21 8:55 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

so what do you read? asking for a friend...

Nov 30, 21 4:56 am  · 
2  · 

Labeling is dismissive political trope designed to eliminate intelligent thought in favor of blind obedience to an ideology. Identifying with any camp allows you to dismiss all contrary information via identity politics and allows others to dismiss you on the same basis. At that point each camp is an echo chamber that reinforces its own beliefs. Knowledge of history helps put things in perspective.

Nov 30, 21 9:22 am  · 
3  · 
proto

Or

Instead of simple-mindedly pretending “both sides equal”

Perhaps realize that despite the financial gain inherent in selling media, that some media providers are more reliable in providing measured reporting on the world around us & others are just sociopathically going for clicks

Nov 30, 21 11:33 am  · 
4  · 
tduds

Barely made it through the third paragraph in that "article" before I filled my conspiracy buzzword bingo card and had to sign out for the day.

Nov 30, 21 12:14 pm  · 
2  · 

proto: The side that you believe in is obviously the side that is correct.

Nov 30, 21 2:19 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

But what about The Nihilists?

Nov 30, 21 2:48 pm  · 
 · 
proto

Miles, it doesn't require me to believe

Nov 30, 21 7:18 pm  · 
1  · 

You believe that some are more reliable.

Dec 1, 21 9:33 am  · 
 · 
square.

it's not a belief that some are more reliable- it's fact. every news outlet cannot be exactly equally reliable or unreliable... which is not a crazy statement. what requires belief is choosing to believe that all are the same, neglecting the nuances of reality.

Dec 1, 21 10:31 am  · 
3  · 
square.

sounds like a question you need to ask yourself.

Dec 1, 21 11:34 am  · 
 · 

@square Which media is
reliable?

Dec 1, 21 3:22 pm  · 
 · 
proto

xla, each of those initial sources you list is editorial. No objection with the WSJ. I would suggest the AP, Reuters primarily. I like The Hill for US political goings on, tho I was recently disappointed to see an advertorial mixed in there that seemed in poor editorial taste.

After that, the conventional large newspapers/news magazines. It is important that they ID clearly the difference between OpEd & news AND that they will correct stories. There are a number of these. There is certainly a place for editorial info and analysis, but those sources shouldn't be considered "news". Just my approach 

Dec 1, 21 3:44 pm  · 
4  · 
square.

all media is unreliable (and of course biased, and at times wrong... just like us all...) to some degree, it's about evaluating which one is more reliable for which audience/context. for inter/national news i read some combo of nyt, wash post, politico, dem now, wall street journ, bbc, aljazeera, reuters, atlantic, but since i'm in nyc, i mostly rely on nyt, the city, and other "cultural" outlets like gothamist, brooklyn, etc. i avoid any cable news like the plague.

the larger point is i'm not "media loyalist," and i don't think most people are- it's about interpreting all of the various inputs you're receiving and making a judgement. but decrying all of "msm" is lazy and not a particularly interesting argument to me... ive read manufacturing consent; we know the problems, but figuring out a way to thoughtfully and critically engaging with the sources we have is a better route imo than constantly griping about the media.

that being said, most of my reading isn't news and i don't obsess over politics anymore- too many good books to read.

Dec 1, 21 3:46 pm  · 
2  · 

The only things reliable about media are that they serve their respective audiences, that is profit driven, and that it is a megaphone for proaganda. MSM is a misnomer, it is corporate media. For example WaPo is owned by Bezos, who has CIA contracts and sits on a Pentagon board. Carl Bernstein has done some good expose work on the CIA and the media.

Dec 1, 21 4:53 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Applying an equal skepticism to all "media" (a term so general it's meaningless) is bad, whether that skepticism is infinite or zero, or anywhere in between. Our brains are actually pretty good at this sort of complex analysis & weighted prioritization, if you're not using it that's on you.

Dec 1, 21 5:10 pm  · 
2  · 

tduds, I might only take issue with your use of the word "skepticism" above. I find healthy skepticism to be a good thing (most likely the influence of a college professor who assigned us Carl Sagan's book "The Demon-Haunted World"). I closely associate skepticism with critical thinking though, and that may not be true for others who may be more apt to associate it with distrust.

Perhaps it would be better to say "dismissiveness" or "distrust" rather than skepticism?

Dec 1, 21 5:22 pm  · 
2  · 
square.

skepticism is def healthy- "equal," as tduds said, conspiratorial dismissiveness is not. at the end of the day, what does this kind of thinking serve? it certainly isn't changing anything, as i imagine most here bring up ideas like this within their homogeneous social circles, which makes for a certain type conversation but does nothing to affect the material world around you.

in other words yes, the world sucks, and giant corporations run everything, but we still have a lot of agency in our daily lives- that's where i like to put most of my focus... beating the drum over and over and over does next to nothing.

Dec 1, 21 5:32 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Ok yes I agree "skepticism" is not the best word. Distrust maybe is more accurate. I agree a healthy skepticism is, well, healthy. What I was trying to get at is that some things demonstrate their reliability over time, and those things earn our trust, and should be scrutinized less heavily than other things. This is a constantly changing set of calculations we make every day. My point, I guess, is that treating everything as equally trustworthy - regardless of the level - is wrong.

Dec 1, 21 5:45 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

To further clarify - my comment was directed at Miles, suggesting his blanket distrust is as useless as someone else's blanket trust.

Dec 1, 21 6:00 pm  · 
1  · 

@square thus my replies to ricky and proto above. That media is essentially compromised is not conspiratorial dismissivenes, it simply recognizes the forces in play and the benefits they are trying to achieve. Glen Greenwald resigned from The Intercept, which he founded, after being censored by them. Chris Hedges resigned from the NYT after being repremended for criticing war.

Dec 1, 21 7:31 pm  · 
 · 

.

Dec 1, 21 7:31 pm  · 
 · 

.

Dec 1, 21 7:31 pm  · 
 · 
proto

Miles, I agree that media needs to be understood in context. But I absolutely do not agree that paid corporate media is inherently flawed. It strikes me as disingenuous to pretend independents with blogs or what-have-you as an outlet aren't equally motivated by clicks/$$$. And, at some point, the whole jaded/cynical "they all suck" is, in fact, simplistically dismissive without benefit. It just leaves you with nothing in the end -- just rudderless befuddlement and confusion.

Taibbi gets hoisted up as a guy who's insightful and not in the bag for the corporatists. But, fundamentally, he's a good writer who knows how to be a provocateur. He drives clicks. That's why he gets to write for the outlets he serves. Sometimes he's on point, sometimes he's just getting you to react. He's an entertainer the way Bill Mahr is, just a different medium. Same with Greenwald. Spare me that he was "censored" by a private company -- boo fucking hoo!

Dec 2, 21 12:27 pm  · 
2  · 

Exactly where did I say - or imply - that "they all suck"? As you yourself agreed, all media needs to be taken in context, and my examples use both corporate and independent media to make that point. I disagree with you about corporate media, which has become monopolized just like telecom, agriculture, retail, etc. Their primary business is generating profit, and evrything they do serves that purpose in one way or another.

Dec 2, 21 1:51 pm  · 
 · 
square.

I disagree with you about corporate media, which has become monopolized just like telecom, agriculture, retail, etc. Their primary business is generating profit, and evrything they do serves that purpose in one way or another.

this is a pretty broad generalization, as most of the media that nearly all americans interact with on a daily basis is defined as corporate media (even the local channels and papers which have been bought up to near extinction).

i think corporate media is certainly flawed in some way, but also think that while they get many things wrong, papers like the nyt (which published a very stupid article on gitmo "living" this week...) also have plenty to offer not just in news, but the many other sections they produce. there was a fantastic article on kevn durant in the magazine, which i am still able to enjoy even though it is produced by, yes, a corporation.

Dec 2, 21 2:16 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

I find the line between what's "Corporate" and what's "Independent" is extremely vague, fuzzy, and malleable. The exact definition seems more dependent on the person talking about it than any measurable external factors.

Dec 2, 21 4:08 pm  · 
1  · 
proto

Miles

Dec 2, 21 4:25 pm  · 
2  · 
proto

^^^ lol, hit return then tried to edit but eclipsed the timer

Dec 2, 21 4:34 pm  · 
 · 

The sports section is good because there is always a videotape that you can watch to see what really happened. Also the "liberal" NYT has an anti-abortion editorial today.

Dec 2, 21 4:46 pm  · 
 · 
proto

"Exactly where did I say - or imply - that "they all suck”?"

"media is essentially compromised”

^^^ this is the phrase that I’m reacting against. Similar ideas have appeared before in other threads. Perhaps I’m reading something into it beyond what you intend. But it really does dismiss the industry. I’m not sure how it is read otherwise. And it is false on its face. It sounds good and holds up for a half second’s thought, but eventually falls apart when scrutinized beyond the sound bite. There are outlets that truly are compromised, basically pushing propaganda; they are often the ones trying to sell the mainstream media as a pejorative, instead of producing actual journalism.

Dec 2, 21 4:47 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

'Also the "liberal" NYT has an anti-abortion editorial today.' 

If you think this is a dunk you might have a future as a Republican congressman.

Dec 2, 21 5:07 pm  · 
2  · 
square.

^ my thoughts exactly.. 1) there are many conservatives living in new york, so it seems reasonable for the major news outlet here to speak to them in some way, and 2) i actually am not afraid to read editorials, aka opinion, from those i disagree with. 

Dec 2, 21 5:17 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

a rare agree here.. professionalization has ruined many things it has touched, including architecture.

Dec 3, 21 9:51 am  · 
1  · 

Professionalization is a result of economics. Just like media. Just like architecture. It's all about the money. Laissez-faire, let the buyer beware.

Dec 3, 21 10:10 am  · 
 · 
JLC-1

We aren't too far off this dystopia


Nov 30, 21 11:16 am  · 
3  · 
archanonymous

Frank, is that you?

Dec 1, 21 10:54 am  · 
1  · 

My mother lives in the middle of this. almost a centenarian, she says it is not bad and she wouldn't have any other way.
I love it too.

Nov 30, 21 2:21 pm  · 
1  · 
JLC-1

I hope she is ok with the storm, some crazy winds over there.

Nov 30, 21 2:57 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

Some talking about Fred Durst ^^^


Here he is now:




Dec 1, 21 3:48 am  · 
1  · 
Wood Guy

Thanks for helping me start my day feeling old ;-)

Dec 1, 21 8:11 am  · 
1  · 
JLC-1

You know what's really funny? All these discussions are based on a "USA-centric" world view, if you cared seriously about dystopian futures you should be looking at China's neo-imperialism. the cold war is so last century.

Dec 1, 21 1:12 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised


(!)

Dec 2, 21 4:24 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

WAKE UP, SHEEPLE


Dec 2, 21 5:05 pm  · 
4  · 
b3tadine[sutures]

DEMONCRAT OIL

Dec 3, 21 2:39 am  · 
5  · 
Wood Guy

CILANTRO MODE

CLARINET DOOM

Dec 6, 21 8:11 am  · 
2  · 
square.

NIL CRED TO OMA

Dec 6, 21 11:05 am  · 
1  · 
tduds

These are all great.

Dec 6, 21 11:49 am  · 
 · 
randomised

EROTIC ALMOND

Dec 6, 21 9:00 am  · 
3  · 

Those are the best type of almonds.

Dec 6, 21 10:46 am  · 
1  · 

An hour ago, in the middle of an online meeting *about building better K-12 education opportunities for disadvantaged individuals in this country* my coworker had to suddenly leave when their child’s school went on lockdown due to a weapon.  This country is already dystopian.

Dec 6, 21 1:22 pm  · 
7  · 
Wood Guy

Wow, Donna.

My friend just moved to Sandy Hook, CT. When he told me his kid started kindergarten there I got chills. Our country jumped the shark when we chose not to do anything about kids getting slaughtered there.

Dec 6, 21 5:36 pm  · 
3  · 
natematt

Why does everyone seem so convinced things are getting worse?

Dec 7, 21 2:20 am  · 
4  · 
natematt

People wouldn't know the metrics of their own values if it ran them over. So many things that are both the interests of the left and right are actually better, even if it's not 100 percent what they want.

Most generic metrics are better. Last 30, 60, 100 years. Go back any further and it's comedic. 150 years ago half the people on this forum would have expired by now haha. 

Dec 7, 21 3:23 am  · 
1  · 
natematt

Take Donna's example above. Don't get me wrong, gun violence is a problem, and school shootings are beyond tragic... but dystopia is about perspective.

Child mortality rates have been dropping for centuries, and are like 1/3 of what they were even like 40 years ago.

Kids used to have to hide under desks for fear of nuclear bombs... 

Dec 7, 21 3:32 am  · 
1  · 
square.

one small reason many people in the united states feel like things are getting worse:

Dec 7, 21 9:20 am  · 
2  · 
square.

Kids used to have to hide under desks for fear of nuclear bombs...

i'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous example- while there might not be any more "drills," nuclear weapons have proliferated at an alarming rate since the 50s and 60s, and we are all in far more danger from them now than those children were during the cold war (there are now enough nuclear bombs to destroy the world over several times)- it just happens to be something we aren't asked to think about very often.

Dec 7, 21 9:23 am  · 
 · 
natematt

Square, I actually agree with you on the nuke issue. I think I will see WWIII in my life... I just don't think we are slowly descending into that dystopia. 

I agree on the income equality, and think that is a serious reason why people think we're heading to dystopia, I just don't think that it is at that level yet. By contrast over the same range of time as that graph food insecurity and poverty have gone way down (albeit not nearly as much as we'd all like), so I'd argue that's a matter of perspective.  

Dec 7, 21 12:48 pm  · 
 · 
proto

income inequality is measuring exactly what you want - you just don't like the answer

Dec 7, 21 1:13 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

I don't care about Lebron's yacht. I do care somewhat about Joe Manchin's yacht.

Dec 7, 21 3:22 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Sure, yeah.

Dec 7, 21 5:11 pm  · 
1  · 
natematt

I feel compelled to be brief, so I'll only touch on 3 things. 

I don't think architects were ever more professional than they are now. (This forum which is not a real representation of the profession aside). Famous example, FLW being a monster in and out of the office. People are honestly pretty well behaved in the office these days. 

In my opinion, a lot of your statements are not directly related to the question of heading into/out of dystopia topic. Even some of the real points, like weapon development... we're still in a better place than we were in the past. 

Freedom of speech is a real funny thing to talk about. The private sector casually policing speech is laughably comparable to the times in which the first amendment was added into the constitution. You could legally murder each other in the street for an argument, Women couldn't vote, and you could still own people.... I'm going to say things are better now. 

Dec 7, 21 4:32 am  · 
 · 
randomised

good grief...

Dec 7, 21 10:23 am  · 
4  · 
proto

jfc, you cannot read a room at all

Dec 7, 21 1:18 pm  · 
1  · 
natematt

As for the topic of the profession. Look past people wearing a suit and tie in every photo, and you’ll realize labor laws didn’t exist, discrimination had a big thumbs up, and there was no such thing as HR. Sure, the anecdotes are all about famous architects, but that’s because the only part of history people remember is the part about the famous people.

Dec 7, 21 1:27 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Buying Rick a thesaurus for Christmas.

Dec 7, 21 1:28 pm  · 
4  · 
randomised

So you're saying you could've written more?

Dec 7, 21 3:10 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

careful...

Dec 7, 21 3:23 pm  · 
2  · 
citizen

Frasier Deargod GIF - Frasier Deargod - Discover & Share GIFs

.

Dec 8, 21 9:23 pm  · 
2  · 
Non Sequitur

speaking of dystopias... anyone else not working today because atodesk's cloud stuff is down on account of Amazon's servers?

Dec 7, 21 3:51 pm  · 
4  · 
square.

sounds more utopian to me

Dec 7, 21 4:10 pm  · 
1  · 
JLC-1

nope, my server is in the next room, never trusted the clouds.

Dec 7, 21 4:29 pm  · 
2  · 
curtkram

thanks non. i thought it was just me

Dec 7, 21 4:36 pm  · 
1  · 

A few of my co-workers are having issues with BIM 360. I'm not on any 360 projects at the moment so I'm forced to be productive in a non dystopian office.

Dec 7, 21 5:01 pm  · 
2  · 
sameolddoctor

That a country like Saudi Arabia hosted its first F1 race, and that all so-called woke, liberal architects are tripping over themselves to work there. Money smells like petrol, sometimes.

Dec 9, 21 2:13 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

so-called by who?

Dec 9, 21 3:51 pm  · 
1  · 
sameolddoctor

so called, by themselves, mostly

Dec 9, 21 4:08 pm  · 
 · 
sameolddoctor

And for one x-jla I will whole heartedly agree with you

Dec 9, 21 4:13 pm  · 
 · 
proto

"wokeness only cares about micro problems in the west"

wholly incorrect, demostrably false even...but interesting to hear what stories you tell yourself

Dec 9, 21 4:20 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Please provide examples of liberal architects calling themselves woke.

Dec 9, 21 5:02 pm  · 
 · 
sameolddoctor

tduds, maybe it is news to you that architects usually pretend to be on the right side of society. Note that I used the word "pretend"

Dec 9, 21 5:06 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Maybe it's news to you that when you say something, and that thing is true, it's not difficult to provide examples of it nor necessary to get defensive when asked for such examples.

Dec 9, 21 5:10 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

What does “woke” mean? Does it mean “Aware of racism and sexism and other forms of discrimination and committed to working to eradicate them?” Does it mean “Khmer Rouge-style fanatics coming to seize and indoctrinate your white babies into their vicious cult?” Its genuine operational definition is probably something like “Anything that makes white people feel guilty.” It is a term that means nothing, and it is a term that can instantly serve as a slur to discredit anything — an empty bucket into which people can dump every uncomfortable thing in order to invalidate it. The fact that major media figures allow debates about “wokeness” to happen with a straight face, and without a written definition, is ridiculous. It is a perfect political black hole, a magic wand that can tarnish whatever anyone dislikes and be said not to apply to anything that they like. It means everything, which means that it means nothing.

Dec 9, 21 5:11 pm  · 
4  · 
tduds

It's not even enough to say "No it doesn't" because that would imply that we agree about "wokeism" being a thing that exists, which it isn't. See above.

Dec 9, 21 6:27 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Define it, then. If it exists, it should be easy.

Dec 9, 21 11:02 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

sec·u·lar /ˈsekyələr/

adjective: secular 1. denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis. "secular buildings"

try again.

Dec 10, 21 9:30 am  · 
1  · 
tduds

I mis-spoke. When I said "define it" I didn't mean to make up a definition. That was unclear on my part. Anyway, try again.

Dec 10, 21 11:28 am  · 
1  · 
tduds

Not now, rickipedia.

Dec 10, 21 1:30 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

I'm not defending the left. I'll defend things that I myself have said and no more , and I'm only asking you to do the same.

Dec 10, 21 3:33 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

I think maybe this gets to the heart of your misunderstanding: You're conflating a variety of different, unrelated, and in some ways contradictory beliefs and practices, lumping them into a big group of "the left", and then holding every single person to account for every single one of those things. That's absurd. I don't ask you to justify White Nationalism, or QAnon, or Evangelical Christianity. That would be dumb, because I know you don't endorse those things and more importantly I know the not everyone who believes one of those things believes all of them.

Dec 10, 21 3:38 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

"White fragility" is defined in the book about it. Whether or not you believe it is an open debate, but the definition is very much settled. Same with "two-spirit" (which appropriates native culture in a dumb way) and "non-binary" (which doesn't). Again, the validity of these identifies is one thing, the definitions are not in question.

 And further, do people exist who insist white fragility is more important than any other issue facing America? Sure. Are there self-identified Two-spirit non-binary people out there? Sure. Do either of these groups exist in significant numbers? Not really. Do either of these groups substantially affect policy or influence the way you want to lead our life? No, unless the way you want to lead your life involves harming them.

 And, despite all your hand-wringing about minor outliers on the identity curve, there's still not an agreed upon meaning of "wokeism"

Dec 10, 21 3:43 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

I think we've lost the thread here. I'm still curious which so-called woke, liberal architects are tripping over themselves to work in Saudi Arabia.

Dec 10, 21 6:52 pm  · 
3  · 
tduds

Well after watching this thread play out for a couple weeks it seems to me, if anything, our dystopia is one of permanently fractured epistemology.

Dec 9, 21 5:18 pm  · 
5  · 
midlander

idiocracy, in common language

Dec 10, 21 12:17 am  · 
1  · 
go do it

Meanwhile getting back to Dystopia...Does anyone know of any dystopian / scifi novels relating to the coming catastrophe caused by the warming of the planet?

Maybe with themes covering how the oceans could be dead in 25 years, destabilized ocean currents caused by melting sea ice, land degradation leading to mass population relocation, loss of freshwater etc...etc...etc


but also entertaining   : )



Dec 12, 21 3:21 pm  · 
2  · 
Non Sequitur

I was a fan of this one when it came out. I should dig it out and see if it holds up. Sorta like Jared Diamond's Collapse but predictions based on current trends 12y ago.

Dec 13, 21 5:15 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

Not really a novel, but perhaps entertaining: 

Learning to Die in the Anthropocene by Roy Scranton

Dec 14, 21 5:22 am  · 
 · 
Appleseed

Nobody here reads Kim Stanley Robinson or what? A number of his novels fit the OP's bill....

Dec 14, 21 3:21 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

thanks for the tip!

Dec 14, 21 4:18 pm  · 
 · 
midlander

jg ballard "the drowned world"

Dec 14, 21 5:53 pm  · 
2  · 
atelier nobody

Not so much global warming as more generalized environmental disaster, but John Brunner's _The Sheep Look Up_ is a classic.

Dec 15, 21 1:32 pm  · 
 · 
atelier nobody

Also not global warming related, but in case you haven't read it already, Neal Stephenson's _Snow Crash_ is the best dystopian novel ever written.

Dec 15, 21 1:34 pm  · 
 · 
Appleseed

As much as I love Snow Crash, not sure I agree w/ that ^ His latest, Termination Shock, does focus on climate change / geoengineering directly - would be a solid rec. for OP.

Dec 15, 21 3:49 pm  · 
 · 

That sound like a good read.

Dec 15, 21 3:57 pm  · 
 · 
go do it

Thanks everyone these certainly are great suggestions. As usual I am late to the party and I had no idea that there was such large cli-fi genre.

Hollywood will be making more and more movies and TV shows in this genre for sure which hopefully will convince the non-believers, like my goof ball sister!  ;)  She may be a lost cause though being that she believes the Earth is 4600 yrs old because, that's right, the bible said so!

cray cray

Dec 15, 21 8:00 pm  · 
 · 
go do it

On the contrary your reply may be irrelevant but not "totally irrelevant" : ) While being totally not religious I still find religion fascinating.

Dec 16, 21 12:43 am  · 
 · 

I like the idea that in the Jewish faith you could create a terminator type killing machine out of mud that would only listen it's creator.  

Fear my mud terminator!  

Dec 16, 21 1:39 pm  · 
2  · 
JLC-1

golem!

Dec 17, 21 11:21 am  · 
 · 
randomised

As we are forced into another lockdown over here because our government’s epic fail handling this pandemic, can’t help but think we’re slipping into a dystopia where incompetent politicians govern over an ignorant population that sees any personal inconvenience in the fight against a pandemic or otherwise as an attack on their inalienable personal freedom and will resist out of spite, thereby dragging this whole situation unnecessarily long with many more easily preventable victims...when it really matters our society fails miserably.

Dec 19, 21 8:16 am  · 
 · 
Wood Guy

This has been a good preview of what will happen when something even more serious occurs.

Dec 19, 21 12:12 pm  · 
3  · 
randomised

Butt naked at the dress rehearsal…

Dec 19, 21 3:57 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

Peoples freedom or choice to not follow simple mask requirements or to not listen to the scientists is dragging this bullshit way too long and causes more deaths…also politicians making this pandemic into a political issue is disturbing, if this would only cause havoc among the unmasked unvaccinated idiots I would be okay with that, raising the general IQ with all their Darwin awards, but unfortunately this is not the case.

Dec 20, 21 4:41 am  · 
 · 
square.

You are completely missing the fact that the political class is out
right lying and blaming this new surge on the unvaccinated, which
accounts for a small segment of the population if you factor in natural immunity.

stfu you twat, these claims are so easily disproven. grow up and realize you're living in a completely fabricated, nutty sand box.

(data from ground zero of omicron, nyc)

Dec 20, 21 11:44 am  · 
 · 
square.

SAME paper reporting that YES, there are also breakthrough cases happening - it's not that hard to think with a little nuance.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/1...

Dec 20, 21 11:57 am  · 
 · 
tduds

This is like hearing "a stopped clock is right twice a day" from the clock's perspective.

Dec 20, 21 1:23 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

We've finally reached a point where I would agree that many COVID measures are becoming over-burdensome and out of step with the current research. But just because that's the case now doesn't mean that it was previously.

Dec 20, 21 1:27 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Risk calculations are complex and dynamic. Simple advice surrounding risk, especially in the context of infection disease, is often wrong. Anyone who is spouting the same advice now as they did in 2020 - whether overly-cautious or overly-dismissive - is essentially wrong. Stopped clock.

Dec 20, 21 1:35 pm  · 
 · 

jla, here's the other thing you seem to be missing. C-19 and its variants are novel. We don't know everything about them that we know for the common cold or even the various flu strains we deal with. Give it some time and we'll probably end up where you want to be; those who are vaccinated get the sniffles with an infection and those that aren't might have more serious illness or complications ... maybe even death. But I don't think we're quite there yet.

Dec 20, 21 1:39 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

you really can't stay focued, can you? you said "You are completely missing the fact that the political class is out right lying and blaming this new surge on the unvaccinated," which is easily disproved with data, something you never seem to be able to provide. i said nothing about lock-downs, mask wearing, or deadliness of the virus. i simply, and quite easily, refuted one of your many false claims.

Dec 20, 21 4:54 pm  · 
 · 
square.

more shiny culture-war objects that have nothing to do with what you originally said (and complete lies about anything i said)- i provided a very clear data set, and you have no response other than divert to some stupid line about smoking.

Dec 20, 21 6:03 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Someone who chooses to be unvaccinated is a threat to everyone who is unable to be vaccinated. It's a foundational principal of literally hundreds of years of public health. Despite your best attempts, we still live in a society.

Dec 20, 21 6:19 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Perhaps the dystopia we're sliding into is one in which every iota of empathy and charity has been assigned an economic cost-benefit and any sense of civic responsibility is eroded away by the idiotic mantra of self interest. Perhaps we've already arrived.

Dec 20, 21 6:24 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

Yes, and I’m showing you why The data set doesn’t matter.

this sums up everything - the reality is you are showing and demonstrating nothing, but you believe you are. delusional, one might say.

Dec 20, 21 6:47 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Perhaps the dystopia we're slipping into is one where information is available and searchable in such abundance that our feeble brains are simply unable to sort the signal from the noise, resulting in irreversible and exponential shattering of any sense of common narrative, of "truth" or "fact", of an agreed-upon context, because there is always a competing set of cherries to pick from the infinite tree and put into your reality pie.

Dec 20, 21 7:29 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

jla - How would you "fact check" this discussion, given that none of us have lied but one or more of us is clearly wrong?

Dec 20, 21 7:29 pm  · 
 · 
square.

First of all, plenty of evidence is showing that cases are surging in states like NY with the highest vax rates and 

so you're either ignoring the data that shows a much higher surge rate among the unvaccinated, or think it is false/a conspiracy. i'll assume the latter. again, never said there weren't breakthroughs, but you argue to with yourself, made up of imaginary things no one says.

https://archinect.imgix.net/uploads/e5/e578384c2e89a20df4aa66d0c3c6c7b3.png?auto=compress%2Cformat&w=1028

most draconian measures

really? sports venues opened, bars and restaurants, etc. mask mandate pretty lose. another false claim used to fit your narrative. par for the course.

0/2.

Dec 21, 21 10:40 am  · 
 · 
tduds

hemorrhoids are not contagious.

Dec 21, 21 12:09 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

For a better example, lets compare soda bans because of child obesity (which are dumb) vs. public smoking bans because of second hand smoke (which are smart and effective). Infectious disease falls in the latter category.

Dec 21, 21 12:10 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Why are you asking me? I'm not a public health expert.

Dec 21, 21 12:34 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Hemorrhoids present zero risk to others. Only yourself. The conversation about public health is about the risk to others. You're really struggling with this concept for some reason.

Dec 21, 21 12:36 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

"Covid presents low-zero risk to others who are vaccinated." 

Which is why it's an important public health goal to ensure that everyone who can be vaccinated should be. Thank you for agreeing with my original point.

Dec 21, 21 1:14 pm  · 
1  · 

x-jla - incorrect

Non vaccinated people are a threat to everyone else. By not being vaccinated a person has the potential to become a breeding ground COVID to mutate and cause more variants that can be vaccine resistant.

Sources:

https://www.pnas.org/content/1...

https://hub.jhu.edu/2021/07/19...

https://www.healthline.com/hea...

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/03...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news...

https://www.mayoclinic.org/dis...

Dec 21, 21 1:29 pm  · 
1  · 

x-jla: 

The first six links you provided are about 'leaky' vaccines. You didn't read the part in the first, second, third, fourth, and sixth links where they state that COVID-19 vaccines are not 'leaky' vaccines do not apply to COVID-19 vaccines..

The ninth link you provided is to an opinion piece from the Wall Street Journal. 

None of these articles support your claim that "unvaccinated do not pose a significant threat to the vaccinated"  The first, third, fourth, and sixth article you provided actually supports that people unvaccinated against COVID-19 are harmful to everyone. 

This is why you have no credibility.  

Dec 22, 21 2:43 pm  · 
 · 

You moron. A 'leaky' vaccine is one that that do not reduce viral replication or transmission to others.

The COVID vaccine dose reduce transmission and reduces mutation through interrupting said transmission.  The reduction in transmission doesn't have to be very high for this mutation reduction to occur. 

From one of your own links:

https://www.quantamagazine.org...


Dec 22, 21 5:04 pm  · 
 · 

I forgot to add that the COVID vaccines reduce viral replication as well.

Dec 22, 21 5:12 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

This is a perfect example of a thing that happens a lot, where a word with a very specific use within the context of a single profession or area of study (in this case "leaky") is stripped of context and used in a mainstream publication, where it is mistaken for and repeated as a vague word with a more metaphoric image (in this case "not perfectly watertight"). imo it's primarily a failure of journalism, but also a failure of research.

Dec 22, 21 5:18 pm  · 
1  · 

x-jla - also the article you linked is about transmission in children. It's well known that the vaccines reduce infection rates between 40% - 60% in adults, depending on the variant. 

The article doesn't touch on the reduction in viral replication and mutation. These are the things that are creating more powerful variants. The COVID vaccines do work well in reducing replication and mutations.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/CO...

https://www.science.org.au/cur...

Dec 22, 21 5:19 pm  · 
 · 

Ricky - a lot of what you wrote above is incorrect.

Dec 22, 21 6:07 pm  · 
 · 
proto

“Fact checkers are really opinion checkers. Prove me wrong“

Do you ever reconsider your opinions in the context of facts?

Dec 19, 21 2:50 pm  · 
 · 
proto

I’m not sure who you think you are responding to…but congratulations on taking a reply to my post to ignore my question and talk about something else. Where the fuck are you getting that I’m “giving preference to those repeating party lines” etc ?!?

Dec 19, 21 7:59 pm  · 
 · 
proto

Yes, I do

Dec 19, 21 10:10 pm  · 
 · 

x-jla wrote: 

"I can show you dozens of social media posts that were “fact checked” or labeled “misinformation” that turned out to be true or at least highly likely."

OK.  Provide 36 examples of this with sources that support your claim. 

Dec 20, 21 12:55 pm  · 
 · 

x-jla: 

 Stop trying to change the subject. 

You're getting repetitive and predictable.  

 Provide 36 examples of your claims about fact checkers on Facebook with sources that support your claim.

Dec 20, 21 1:20 pm  · 
 · 

Dammit, I'm getting sucked into this thread. Seems like it's just another mash up of whatever jla wants to rant about and show how much he doesn't understand things. He usually get's nuked from these types of threads eventually, and I don't anticipate this one to be any different. 

Anyway, I saw his comment saying "the viral particles to cloth are something like sand grains to a chain link fence." That's fine. I won't even debate that analogy. Conceptually I would agree with it, even if it might be off by an order of magnitude or something. 

You know what we use to help control sand (or snow even) from blowing around all over the place? That's right fences. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Here's a fantastic image courtesy of the MN DOT (if you aren't familiar with sand/snow fences and how they are used, the predominant wind direction would blow from right to left in the image. The fence helps prevent snow from getting to the road on the left):

Yep, sand (or snow) can get past a stupid little fence, but the fence does help control it's spread. You know, kind of like how we are trying to use masks ... to control C-19's spread. It's not an impenetrable barrier, but any little bit it captures or reduces the spread is helpful. The MN DOT still uses plows and other things to keep the roads clear. Just as masking isn't the only thing we should be doing.

Dec 20, 21 1:21 pm  · 
3  · 

Yup. As someone who grew up in MN I can attest that snow fences work great.

Dec 20, 21 1:37 pm  · 
2  · 

Age/development dependent for sure, but anecdotally my kiddo was constantly sucking on/chewing the inside of their cloth masks. We stopped it by putting in a mask bracket or mask guard (they might go by different names) that hold it away from your mouth. Now we don't even need it because it's no longer a habit. Also switching to KN95s that had more structure/rigidity to keep it away from the mouth was helpful too.

My kid is better than most adults about wearing a mask. The entire preschool class is pretty good about it too. It's essentially a non issue at this point. They're all running around playing and chasing each other as kids do. None of them seem to have any issues with it. I think about that often when I see a grown-ass adult man-child complaining about wearing a mask in the grocery store because it's harder to breathe [eyeroll].

Dec 20, 21 2:06 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

I don't wear a mask outside.

Dec 20, 21 4:48 pm  · 
1  · 
tduds

Just want to remind the thread that I was right. 

Dec 20, 21 1:36 pm  · 
2  · 
proto

still no listing of dozens of examples

Dec 20, 21 7:52 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Lunar samples can be requested from NASA by filling out this form: https://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/sampreq/requestdates.cfm

Dec 21, 21 11:22 am  · 
1  · 

Careful - they have those pesky moon spiders in 'em.

Dec 21, 21 12:48 pm  · 
3  · 

My current dystopia is half a dozen hot flashes every day plus constant heartburn plus waking up three to four times a night fighting sciatica pain. Mental aging rocks, the perspective is awesome, but physical aging  sucks donkey balls.

Dec 21, 21 9:34 pm  · 
4  · 

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