You are able to see the first post in a thread created by a blockee. It's a design flaw.

I hope it’s aliens. I’d be more worried if the Chinese or Russians have some tech that is exhibiting these alleged capabilities

"When you hear hoofbeats in the night, look for horses — not zebras."

Unless you’re in the Serengeti ...

I can tell you're not so much into science fiction

We literally sail across the pacific to study ant hills on remote islands...*see Darwin

I'm into a lot of science fiction. Also fantasy and historical fiction. You know what they all have in common? They're all fiction. :P

you may enjoy more it if you stop being so tied to this planet and its "laws"; not everything in the universe has been explained by humans, heck we don't know what's beyond a couple hundred light years. As a side, a good chunk of technological advances have been dreamed by "fiction" several decades before they became a reality.

You misspoke. 

 NOTHING in the universe has been explained. We have some theories about it though. 

 I'm rather open minded and enjoy scifi a great deal. Like any fiction the science bits don't need to make sense or be accurate to be fun to consume. I'm talking about the big things like faster than light travel. Folding, warping, bending space time. Suspended animation. Wormholes. Transmission of consciousness to new bodies. It's all fun to read about an could become possible in the future. Small junk like you're referring to such as communicators, lasers, computing, AI. All the stuff that have made huge gains in the last 50 years. That's kid stuff.

alright, let me suggest a book (or 3); the three body problem, by cixin liu.

Already read them.

maybe the loch ness monster is also blurry... and so is big foot, and so on.

Oh, maybe you're right. They're not out of focus, they're just focused in a way that our brains can't comprehend, got it! I guess I believe in aliens now. And Bigfoot.

Don't even need photographs. We can make radio-controlled models doing what I just said below to x-jla (on a smaller scale for proof of concept). Governments with their resources can make budget for the R&D of full-size flying saucers. As I said to x-jla, I am not convinced advanced intelligent life capable of interstellar travel is going to be visiting this back world planet. If they can travel star systems, I think they can see what we are without having to go into the atmosphere and once they realize we are backworld primitive idiots, they aren't going to be hanging out here. If they came, they also left already. What interest would they have in us? What would we be able to offer them anything of interest to them?

donna, i think what's fun about this will be it's not just blurry photos. it's top-end military tracking systems, looking at not just visible light but heat and such.

Why do you assume that they have to be able to travel light speed? They could have a longer term civilization with longer term goals...say they are from 10 light years away, if they can manage 1/10 light speed (possible with solar sails), it would take them only 100years to get here. Their civilization could be millions of years old...sending AI drifting around the galaxy for future generations...I don’t know why this is such a taboo idea. The universe is enormous, and if we are it, that would be very very odd.

They would need to build something akin to an artificial planet that can move if they are going to travel all that distance. At light speed, that's a simply velocity of 186,000 miles per second. 1 light years is a distance unit in which light travels in a single year. if they could get a space "ark" to travel light speed, it would take 10 years to travel 10 light years. However, if the planet you are visiting was 10 light years when you started, you may have to travel a little more than 10 light years to reach that destination. However, if you can't get to light speed but maybe up to 100 miles per second.... currently we are traveling with space probes around 10 miles per second. 100 miles/second would be about 360,000 mph. 10 light years of travel distance would take 18,600 years. If the stars are moving apart as they appear and star systems are moving about 0.05% of speed of light to 1% of the speed of lightspeed. Over 18,600 years, the stars may have moved 9.3 light years to 186 light years. This means if they are moving away from us, it might be impossible for a ship to arrive at that destination. You have to plan a path that will vector you to where the star would be and have to compute a trajectory path to reach the planet. You'll probably need to be traveling at 2,000 miles per second (7.2 MILLION miles per hour). Lets consider what I said about push and pull factors. What is driving them to leave their star system? What pull factor do we have on this planet that alien life in other star systems would want with this planet?

Who says they are biological

Your thinking like a human. A self replicating AI could move around the galaxy at decent speeds that don’t require any bending of space time (not saying that’s not possible, but it’s not required) as long as their short term monkey reward system is turned off.

For millions of years...drifting around at modest 1% light speeds...dropping proves in solar systems as they whip around suns...rebuilding...replicating...etc. we have concepts for light sails that can do 5% light speed...imagine a civilization hundreds of thousands of years more
advanced?

*probes

“ 18,600 miles per second
Solar sails have a maximum speed which is 10% the speed of light, which equates to 18,600 miles per second or, 67,100,000 mph. Solar powered spacecrafts are able to travel faster than conventional rocket fueled spacecrafts due to constant light pressure being applied to the sail propelling it forward.”

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/webproj/212_spring_2015/Robert_Miller/phone/physics.html

10% actually I guess

Solar sails at 10% of the speed of light..... you know that is not even proven.... at least humans haven't proven that.

It’s been proven to work mathematically. The science is pretty clear on that.

Slowing it down and getting it to land from what I understand is pretty much impossible...but what if that thing just zips from star to star dropping little AI drones in solar systems...it’s conceivable that a civilization thousands of years more advanced than us could pull that off...without having to rely on novel technology like bending space time or antigravity.

Avi loeb is convinced that oumaumau was a solar sail type ship

Anything is possible with a computer simulation. The numbers maybe correct in theory of theoretical maximum but will the solar sail be able to survive at that speed or will it just get shredded up. Real material and real tests needs to be done. Until then, it calculated bullshit.

Rick, these are physicists. They know more than you. Solar sails have been proposed and studied for a while. The physics is clear. It’s material science that needs to catch up to make it a reality, but it’s not that “out there”. That’s just relying on basic stuff. Aliens may have far more exotic technology and propulsion that would like like magic to us. Imagine going back only 1000 years to the Middle Ages with a F-16? It would look impossible to people back then. In another 1000years same will be true. Human technology is still in its infancy.

Of all the materials on the periodic chart, not a single one of them will structurally hold its atomic bonds at that speed especially passing through even a field of hydrogen gas, you're material will just shatter apart at the atomic level.... basically, vaporizing. This is why making matter move at light speed or even 1% of light speed is proven to be possible. Can an advance race be able to devise a solution like a deflector shield that is talked about in Star Trek. Something like it would have to be invented and your ship will have to travel in an absolute vaccum of material. Sadly, even the space between stars in the galaxy has too much mass density. As I said, we haven't proven it with anything real and that is why it is still in the category of calculated bullshit because it is calculating with things that only exists in Science Fiction as far as human technology goes. We don't have anything like a deflector shield. As you said, its a material science matter. Guess what, that's part of physics and the physical sciences. SCIENTIFICALLY, we don't have anything remotely capable of what you are talking about. I do agree that an advance technological life on another planet capable of interstellar travel may have a solution. We already calculated with every known material on the periodic chart and none of it would survive going at such speed through a field of atoms which at THAT speed would be like running into a flake of paint at 1 BILLION miles per hour or if the paint flake was propelled at you at such speed. This is why even getting out into space, now, is dangerous because even small material travelling at 17,000 to 18,000 miles per hour would be like a bullet impact. At the speed, you are proposing, it will be even worse. It's like travelling through flak at speeds over 1 million miles per hour. The flak at relatively low velocity will shred you to pieces. Same principle. Space within the galaxy is not a true vacuum. What would happen if you collided into a pebble size rock. At that velocity, it will obliterate your space ship. It may do likewise to an alien ship do you need to deflect the materials and space debris/rocks around your ship. Otherwise, you are literally going to die if even one molecule size object collides.

I think those alien saucers are hard-shell "dirigible" (formed into an aerodynamic shape profile) where they use bladders of helium chambers filled with a lighter than air gas in order to establish near buoyancy where the upward force of helium gas is neutralizing the weight of the craft (not the mass... the mass is unchanged but while the force of gravity pushes the craft down but helium can neutralize that with an upward force. The craft doesn't have to be lighter than air. You can employ enough helium to reduce a drone craft's weight of say.... 3 tons to say 150 pounds on a scale. Yes, the craft will drop without use of the engines but with enough helium to with a lifting force of say 8,850 pounds can negate the 9000 pounds of the craft so smaller motors are needed to lift the craft off the ground and get it up in the air. If you neutralize the weight even further with using helium to increase the uplifting force to 8,990 pounds, the weight of a pilot or human being inside the craft would only be minor. If you use modern-day flight controllers used for a regular ol' drone, this.... now.... 10 pound craft with helium would be easy to get up in the air with very modest motors. Helium is basically the "antigravity" solution used. We could do this in the 1950s with a simple electronics for Radio Control system manipulating servos. You can basically use an electric blower system much like used in electric powered leaf blower with opening and closing exhaust ports. That is how the U.S. government can implement a flying saucer drone in the past and present. I am not convinced intelligent life on other planets would be visiting this backworld planet. I'm confident that there is life on other planets in the universe but not convinced they are visiting us. It makes for nice sci-fi but I'm more convinced these UFOs we are seeing are projects being developed by companies like Boeing, Lockheed, Hughes, MacDonnell Douglas, etc. for the U.S. government and similar companies in other countries.

Listen to David Fraver. They recorded these things going from 80,000 ft to 50ft above sea level. Multiple Trained fighter pilots, radar data, and video evidence all

In a sec

Duh..... top secret projects that would be unknown to trained fighter pilots.... duh. If they aren't assigned to such classified projects, they aren't suppose to know anything about such projects or the very existence of such projects. That's the whole idea behind security level clearance. Classified projects are by rule, the government is neither going to confirm or deny the existence of such classified project or any details thereof. Do you think the flying saucers are for military? What about CIA and other operational units within the intelligence and national security apparatus? Those flying saucers are classified projects of some human design for a government entity be it U.S. or a foreign entity. They are designed using known and established aeronautical and/or aerospace principles including versions that also can go below water. Why do you think they retired the SR-71? The government is not going to disclose through confirmation or denial of any such projects. They are going to simply leave it to people to make their own conclusions. Even air force pilots, as well trained as they are, are going to know about anything above their security level and approval. There are different levels of top secret and if you knew anything about this stuff, you will know that such information is on a need to know basis and why would they be in a need to know basis? I am not saying there isn't any alien race on other planets. The things is, if they are that advance, why would they need to come to Earth. Something else you might not be aware of is the cold war between U.S. and the Soviet was to keep not only China at bay but the FOURTH REICH from forming from the "ashes of" the Third Reich..... formulating in South America and other locations. As you may noticed, the Germans were developing a flying wing craft and possibility of other designs beyond that which may include a flying saucer. Why do you think I say that the idea of aliens visiting Earth is flawed? Lets take for example that we have a telescope in space called Hubble Telescope and terrestrial telescopes of considerable capacity to see things far away. Don't you think aliens would not have even more advance telescopic displays capable of seeing what is happening on the surface of Earth. We have spy satellites that can read the writing on a cigarette butt from outer space. Don't you think they can't do the same from further distance? What the pilots saw were UFOs as in unidentified flying objects because they could not identify it. The craft is not on the database of aircraft types on their cockpit computers and those computers was unable to identify because it's a design not in the database. Top secret crafts would not be on any such computers..... as they are classified. Think about it. Even the SR-71 was an unknown craft that was not identified by military pilots that were not part of SR-71 development and therefore would not be able to identified.

I enjoyed reading this.

I wouldn't even worry about Drake's equation because you can't necessarily compute probability of some advance race choosing to explore the universe much like we chose to explore the planet. While I agree with you that the likely chance of aliens visiting us is low and staying even less. Even if aliens passed by our planet in the past, they would have found that we are of no viable interest. We are primitive and we would not have anything they would care about. We haven't done anything in space that would draw them to come here. I would take the geographical principle of push and pull factors in the geographical landscape of the galaxy. 

What push factors would they be having to come here? 

What pull factors are we and this planet would be to the aliens ?

What would be the push and pull factors of interstellar migration?

These questions must have an answer. We don't know. Regardless, no rational life of any kind with ability to reason is going to go exploring the galaxy without some factor. There's a factor that drives our mission to Mars and exploring the solar system and we are only on the very early days of space exploration. They may be a million years ahead of us.

That would be an ancient alien theory. They may not actually be on this planet but could be living on a moon of one of the planets that may have an atmosphere they need. Lets not assume that intelligent life must breath our atmosphere. Another possibility is time travel or inter-dimensional travel. This leads us into the many theories you may find surrounding quantum physics. I don't know how they would do it but opening inter-dimensional portals to other dimensions where life and circumstances were different. We have yet to know or understand these things. Another possibility is it isn't aliens but another type of life of intelligent capacity that lives under water. So who knows. We know less about the ocean than we know about the moon and solar system we live in between the sun to Pluto. If another species of life existed on Earth and are more advance than us, it could be a race on the planet that predates human kind and actually live in the oceans. They may have been thought to have lived in space but in fact live in the ocean deeps far from human life on the surface. Then they aren't aliens as in they aren't extraterrestrial.

we pretty much know there are dimensions outside the space-time we experience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z91oGI5aP0A i think this was explained to us a few thousand years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G28qHASOtE8 sort of like, krishna's form is his existence in the multiverse (which is where we all are, but we don't experience), outside of space-time where everything that has been is, and everything that will be is.

We have religions and beliefs. Sure. However, I am not convinced all those so-called "UFO" sightings of the 20th century and 21st century are that of extraterrestrial origins. I think they are (mostly... at the very least) clearly of terrestrial origins namely..... ones with MADE IN THE USA somewhere on it, in it.... whatever. Some that maybe of U.S.S.R. origins.

Based on the analysis that I heard, if the military instruments are correct (not giving false readings) these things are far beyond what our current technology allows for. One govt official said this it 1000 years beyond what we are capable of. G-forces that would tear out best planes apart. Moving between air and water. Etc. I’m keeping an open mind...

Let me explain something to you. What you know, the government has already is decades further along. We already had a working flying saucer in the year 1950. A flying saucer (for example) is basically a wing profile around a 360 degree circular form. An appropriately designed structural shell can handle 1,000,000Gs when you top that off with material like carbon nanotube technologies more advance than you even heard of. These newer UFOs are not piloted. Project Aurora that we designed as an aerospace reconnaissance drone. This being the so called "Aurora" plane that flies at hypersonic. This replaced the SR-71 aside from spy satellites. Now, in a saucer or similar designs where you use induction blowers and distributed "exhaust" ports where the craft can rapidly change directions at near 90 degrees. Technically it isn't doing perfect 90 degree turns but are actually doing something close to it that from observation, it will appear that way. The structural stress would be optimally distributed around the body shell. The flight controller board would need to be protected from cracking under the G-force. You would encapsulate the controller in an incompressible fluid or something that can not compress. Another thing is, the craft doesn't need to make the turns at its hypersonic speed. It just needs to rapidly decelerate and make vector changes of it's direction in an X, Y, or Z axis. It can rapidly accelerate and decelerate and with a jet chasing it at supersonic speed may be seeing an optical illusion. Regular fight jets can't make the maneuvers. Actually, the jets can theoretically bank at higher velocity than what the pilot can take in G-forces before it would structurally fail. A craft that is intentionally designed for hypersonic flight is going to be designed so it can take stresses many times higher than a conventional jet. We have been seeing hypersonic crafts for over 40 years..... like the space shuttle. Why would you think humans can't engineer the structural frame of said crafts with higher structural stress capacity. We already can do that with the science we actually have proven and engineering principles. A craft that will not be piloted by a pilot inside the craft is going to be able to be designed in ways that doesn't have to concern itself with limiting g-forces to what humans can handle. Don't underestimate human ingenuity. What that was was a CIA drone project in that video testing pilots who were not aware of the existence of such things. Those that are in the know.... isn't going to confirm or deny on record of any kind about the existence of any kind of classified top secret projects that are so classified that the POTUS would not even be authorized to know because the POTUS is a civilian not one of the "company" men and women that are part of the top secret classified projects. The engineers that works on such project are sworn to secrecy and works at classified locations and they do not go home.... ever. One thing they have to sacrifice in being part of such programs is normal life and relationships. They may even be officially declared dead and are under a new identity. They have to voluntarily give up civilian life because of what they know.

I'm not reading that. Kindly shove off.

a stray booger seems too generous. I'd say it's more like a deliberate dumping following a 3day tacobell bender.

there's a new tv series called "debris", same plot of roadside picnic, I haven't watched yet.

Mick West is a Dick

x-jla - shut up. Most of us have blocked you.

I think Mick West started with the conclusion he wanted and cherry picked an explanation to support that conclusion without looking critically at what he's observing. i doubt the government is going to release alien autopsies or anything like that, but i think there there are aerial phenomenon that honestly do not match the behavior of weather balloons or any vehicles we have in America. that doesn't necessarily mean it's not terrestrial, but there are things we don't understand out there.

Exactly. The whole idea of a “skeptic” is ridiculous and anti scientific. It’s a belief. Scientific inquiry should be objective

My thread Chad

curtkram, I honestly do agree, and I really hope there is something juicy and mind-blowing in this upcoming report! But I'm skeptical, and it's a huuuuuuge leap from "we don't know what this is" to "it's aliens".

Skepticism is the continual questioning of belief, not a belief. It's the basis of scientific inquiry, not anti-science. What are you on about?

There’s a difference between skepticism and “skeptics”. Skeptics start with a bias that some thing must not be true and set out to disprove it.

Mick West has said clearly, and repeatedly that he’s not saying they aren’t aliens, that they aren’t exotic technology. He’s simply saying that the videos posted, which so many people are saying are proof of something exotic, are easily explainable as artifacts of the imaging systems used. And his arguments are quite compelling. And nobody in the “UFO True Believer” community wants to address his arguments directly, because they soooooo want this to be real.  They either say, “there’s more evidence, which has not been released, and which I’m not at liberty to discuss, which corroborates our take’, or they say “Mick West is a dick”.  Neither is a good argument.  Follow the science...tell us why West is wrong.  

Top people from

govt positions are saying that the vids released are not even the tip of the iceberg. Supposedly they have video of craft from 50’ away. Radar evidence shows swarms of craft in military airspace “every day for 2 years”. There is lots of data and credible eye witness testimony showing these things doing maneuvers that are beyond anything we could do, and doing it without typical propulsion. They used the data to figure one craft exerting 700 g’s, which would tear any known man made object to shreds. These kinds of leaps of technology don’t happen that quickly. The stealth bomber was advanced, but clearly still a plane obeying the laws of planes. These objects appear to be something else. They don’t behave like planes. At some point the most logical hypothesis has to be either aliens, or many incompetent military people and multiple radar and data collection failures resulting in some collective delusions every day for years from many countries and locations. I’m going with aliens. And yes, I hope it’s aliens. I’m biased towards aliens, because it would be fucking cool

Imagine being so naïve that this ^ is enough to jump to what is obviously a pre-determined conclusion. Having something(s) or perhaps some video glitch thing in a video(s) and then trying to rationalise how it could be aliens if they did X, Y, Zee is a poor jump to conclusion and honestly; it's more evidence for the lack of imagination of the believer(s) than anything else.

But then again, some still think talking to a fictitious random carpenter's son will help them win the lottery... or that gun ownership is a good thing.  Nonsense everywhere you look and squinting at the issues is definitively not going to help.

But I'm sure this will help sell t-shirts near Roswell. 

It’s not a conclusion, it’s a hypothesis. You may have not looked into the subject and seen as much data as some people coming to this hypothesis have. These are not glitches. In one case, you have infrared video from a top of the line military jet/camera, combined with 5-6 highly trained pilots testimony, combined with prolonged radar evidence. Aside from that the military is saying that there are tons and tons of better footage and evidence that’s classified. But just from what’s been released, That’s 3 data sources that would have to all be wrong
for this to be a glitch.

But it also could just be a horse. You're not looking at this front a standing still start. You we're already in full jogging mode.

The universe is enormous beyond comprehension. To think that we are the only technologically advanced civilization with an itch to explore is silly. There is nothing in physics preventing this from being real. “ The number of stars in a galaxy varies, but assuming an average of 100 billion stars per galaxy means that there are about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (that's 1 billion trillion) stars in the observable universe!” We are not special.

^I agree and never said we were alone. It's just spectacularly unlikely that it's aliens given the scope of the situation. So anyone trying to reverse engineer video to fit this alien narrative is bound to be disappointed. Again, it's likely to just be another horse.

The dilemma here is that the only released data are the infrared camera videos. Everything else is military and ex-military saying that there is other information, but it's second-hand and hearsay. What we have seen is the videos, and everything supposedly unusual in the videos is convincingly explainable as artifacts of the imaging systems used. If there is additional evidence, I hope it is declassified soon.

If it acts like a horse, then horse is a good hypothesis...if it’s doing shit that horses can’t do, then you have to entertain a different hypothesis. These things were clocked by multiple military instruments going from 80,000 ft above sea level to 50 ft above sea level in 1 second. We don’t have a machine that could survive that kind of acceleration. If it moves like a horse it’s probably a horse, if it moves like a ufo...maybe it is one.

But, yes I’m definitely guilty of ufo bias...I want it to be true...it would be fascinating

This conversation between Mick West and Luis Elizondo is really interesting. Elizondo, who is ex-military and was formerly involved in UFO research for the government, seems like a legit guy. But he literally has no refutation whatsoever of West's arguments.  None, except to say, "there is more information which shows these things are unexplained and exotic, but it's classified and I can't share it with you.  Trust me."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eozxt_HnPu4

Again, the problem, X-jia, is that people keep saying that these things are doing unexplainable stuff, but there is nothing unexplainable in the video evidence that's been released. If there is evidence beyond the videos, let's release it and we can all evaluate.

https://www.history.com/videos/uss-nimitz-tic-tac-ufo-declassified-video

Watch the end. It accelerates away pretty damn fast. This is from the tic-tac sighting where several pilots saw this thing..radar tracked it...and it even jammed the radar of one plane (act of war)

Not saying it’s aliens, but it’s aliens

Here's a pretty solid analysis of the Nimitz video by West, where he shows that the sudden motions are a combined artifact of the relative trajectories of the two aircraft and the camera systems. Where is West wrong? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1di0XIa9RQ&t=1s

Elizondo had absolutely no substantive refutation of West's conjecture, other than to say "there's more evidence than you have access to".

That’s consistent with what Harry Reid has said. The evidence released doesn’t even scratch the surface of what they have. Why would Harry Reid lie about that?

I don't know. Release the material, and we all can evaluate it. This reminds me of Bigfoot. All sorts of video "evidence" and "eyewitness" accounts, but the actual available evidence always falls just short of anything definitive.

Ah yes. Invisible evidence. Th good old carrot on a stick. Keep chasing it, well give it to you eventually. (Morgan freeman narrator voice: no they won’t.)

June deadline to release their report. We’ll see I guess.

Is that what you do with your free time? Maybe consider another hobby... or least better photography subjects.

taking photographs of hairy cosmonaut asses in space as seen from earth is my day job and it pays for me doing architecture...

Q: Do you believe in unicorns?

A: No.

Q: Why not?

A: Because I've never seen a unicorn.

Q: Do you belive in God?

A: Yes.

....

I believe in joe Pesci.

I've never seen Miles or NS...

[que X-Files theme]

The coincidence is too odd.

I see a martini and several drink making tools. Are you saying aliens know how to make good cocktails?

They will need a good stiff drink when they finally decide to land on this shit show planet

non, i can get behind aliens with good cocktails. and aliens with taco trucks. to be honest, if they don't bring taco trucks i'm probably going to be disappointed.

Pffff... way to play the game on easy mode.

He keeps returning to the same bar complaining about how much he doesn’t like it. Makes no sense

Go find another water cooler, Chad. Or, create your own.

Whenever I see an ignored post by x-jla I imagine the inane crap that poop gibbon is posting. .

And all that about someone you're supposed to be ignoring ;-)

He loves me.

Sure it would be "exciting" to know that we are not the only so-called "intelligent" life in the galaxy or universe. It is unlikely that we'll find that answer for some time, still. I am not convinced yet that what we have seen are extraterrestrial.

It's a hockey puck.

In one of Stanislaw Lem's stories Prix the Pilot chases a blip on a malfunctioning radar screen halfway across the solar system.

Top secret US black budget projects and those of other nations aren't the kinds of stuff that investigators reviewing this will be in the know. They may be intelligent but they won't know what they don't know like things that are on the cutting edge because that info is locked behind secrecy that even the President of the U.S. would not even know about or certain public figures in other countries because of their public figure status. Presidents are civilians of the general public and national security apparatus and the national security act mandates that some things are so secret that even Presidents can not know about it until they have reached a status of no longer needing to be that top secret because it's outdated because of the even newer stuff. We developed a drone craft that is hypersonic in the 1980s and testing during that time and into the 1990s and this is now in service because while satellites are replacing some crafts, these hypersonic crafts can get more enhance resolution and even capture data and information including audio and RF transmissions that are not transmitted out into space and by being able to fly in the atmosphere and in space. The goal here is the same as Predator and Global Hawk but at hypersonic, so it can go deep into hostile territory and outrun any SAMs around and get the "data"/intel and be gone before anyone even knows it. It is for these stated reasons that the SR-71 was retired. Publically, they stated it was because of satellite technology but it is not just satellites that is the reason.

it's the zookeepers checking the temperature of our cage. they noticed it's overheating.

...ask McAfee

Yet, they were working on jets and had zeppelins and were very familiar with the various sciences. The flying saucer or whatever back in 1947, while the aerodynamic design were interesting considering they were probably cutting edge but it is based on already known understanding the aerodynamic flow of a wing but instead of uniaxially apply that principle in 360 degrees in the shape of a circle. Just like we took the understanding of lamella roof for a barrel vault roof and then apply that in the shape of a dome. Now, you can make a flying disc wing craft. Now, we already have known by late 19th century radio-controlled aircraft. By WW II, we have already had 'drones' ("radioplanes"). It's really just a scaled-up version but we can already with powerful transmitters at the level military and government are authorized to do that will be able to fly a flying disc drone with miles. At that time, none of the flights was necessarily supersonic or hypersonic. Now, with airship technology, you can use helium to neutralize the effects of gravity. With a craft, you have the mass and gravity. With lighter than air gas, you'll have a force pushing against (opposite) of the force of gravity. With enough, it's like any other balloon. If you don't put enough to completely neutralize the weight of the craft, it won't be lighter than air but even if you neutralize 90% of the weight with helium, you will need very little engine power or thrust to get it off the ground. All you need to make a blimp move through the air fast instead of the notorious slowness you a familiar with the Goodyear blimp is a relatively rigid aerodynamic shell. We had aluminum and plastics already by that time. Bakelite in 1907. Thin aluminum and plastic and rubber membrane bladders are all we really need. I can make a small-scale flying saucer that is radio-controlled that would behave like any in 1947's report. A larger-scale version requires more financial resources for material but a government like the U.S., Soviet Union, and even the Germans were capable of this. With some careful design, I can control exhaust jets through a series of servos and using opening and closing ducts. We already had that technology in buildings for a long time well before that time. On a larger scale, the ducts would be relatively modest but just opens and close rapidly. Modern servos would be much quicker responding than they may have been in 1947. Using an engine based on centrifugal fan or compressor. Compressing ducts and open & closing doors that opens and close around the craft. Today, we would use a flight controller comparable to that used in little quad copters and can control such a craft with full automation with a computer the size of a watch. In 1947, this would have to be pre-thought out and some hardwired circuits so the correct group of ducts are opened and closed for lateral movement and for vertical flight. Why can't some intelligent group of people come up with a flying saucer and make one work with the already established technology and knowledge. A little money and a few could be made and tested. It's called research and development for a reason.

Gentlemen?

Is this a bot?

They are called sun dogs and have been known for a .long time. But always only 2 extra, I think.

Pretty much every shaped UFO where description of shape has been given by any counts or where there was some photographs that weren't blurry as hell or otherwise useless video recordings or photographs at night can probably be explained with something made by human hands. I pointed out how a real life flying disc shaped crafts. Even the triangular shaped ones can be explained and built using the same technologies and methods I had described aside from any sighting could be associated with the F117 especially when that craft was top secret and unknown to the public. The government of the U.S. and soviet had been developing and researching with state of the art designs, experimental designs, and so forth in top secret for well a long time, now. Especially since WW II. These projects are not disclosed to the public and the government engages in practices of neither confirming or denying for plausible deniability and misinformation because informing the public is informing the enemies because whatever is disclosed to us is available to the enemies without any measure to keep the information secured from enemies. If it was possible for disclosing to the U.S. citizens without disclosing to the enemies they would be disclosing to us. However, the enemies are within the U.S. as citizens. They are intelligence agents of foreign powers including those we are not politically on good terms with. They are either discountable accounts or they are top secret/experimental aerial vessels and now, vessels that can fly and submerge under water and move. Today, most new state of the art projects are in fact, future unmanned crafts which do not have to conform by design to limited g-force for pilots. They can now be designed so the craft can absorb much higher g forces and make tighter flight maneuvers. Piloted aircrafts must have limitations designed into the aircraft so it doesn't make maneuvers like sharp 80+ change in direction. Piloted air crafts are design so they have to make a curved turn or bank requiring a turn or banking radius at any given velocity so the air craft doesn't exceed certain maximum levels of Gs even with specialized suits that mitigates the g force felt. Unmanned crafts don't have to be limited by those constraints and that is why unmanned crafts can potentially outmaneuver any piloted craft that is possible.

We can discount the 1200 mph because there was no valid means of measuring speed which is from the eyes and radar wasn't quite good enough to really determine speed. How the person arrives at 1200 mph is probably discountable. The P-38 Lightning can do 600 mph. If you were going 600 mph and a craft was going your direction at 600 mph, how would the speed be perceived as the craft zips past your side. Who knows, could it been conflated from 120 Mph to 1200 mph? In which case, not very impressive speed would it? Is this speed truly a measured and accurate speed measured with lasers and precision time stamped readings with your air craft velocity as well which can then be computed or is it merely an optical illusion. His craft was at under 200 mph. We don't have data to substantiate anything.

Most UFO sightings seen in the U.S. and most of North America that are of a flying craft (other than an aerial phenomenon) are MADE IN THE USA. Some of them are for the CIA and special operations groups that are top secret that their official existence does not exist and that's for a reason. On the world front, as we get closer to the present, some of the UFOs are not strictly U.S. Even the Soviets have been developing experimental crafts that had been observed and were deemed UFOs and Russia is still in that business and there is also China and others. The means of developing drones is not that hard or that expensive especially for countries that are significant economic powers in the world. Even the UK today can make a flying disc shaped or triangular drone that can go supersonic and UK isn't as big of a super power that it once was prior to WW II. It is possible that even India could develop such a craft so lets not kid ourselves. 

These aren't extraterrestrial. 

E.T.s would have no need to go inside the atmosphere for any practical reason and they would be able to see things in great detail from as far away as 2 times the diameter of Pluto's orbit in the longest direction. They can easily stay in space and out of reach of us and listen to all the RF transmissions that radiate out from Earth into space. Pretty much all RF transmission frequencies that pierce the ionosphere. That's much of the TV transmissions going up to satellites. They can learn about us from distances halfway between Earth and Mars which places them outside our defense systems and can be difficult to detect even by astronomers. Then what's here on Earth that would of interest to E.T.s?

i am also not convinces

They don't want to come here because we would be shooting at them instead of being remotely peaceful. Wall of text is much lower on the totem pole of risks. We also don't have anything of interest. We're too fucking primitive for them. Only an alien paleontologist would even fancy coming here but preferably from a little distance until we are all dead and turned to rock by then.

we're doomed

We’re not gonna make it, oh no, we’re not gonna make it... https://youtu.be/j4f6D7VTqII

.... we are gonna make it after all.

R, we’re only gonna make it if your statement is accompanied by a YouTube video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0GFRcFm-aY

“Lenny Bruce is not afraid” One of my favorite REM lines.

rando, the particular clip is already in the YT video you posted. No need to double post.

I distinctively remember buying that PUSA album on cassette. Great link Rando...

Really Rick, totally missed it...but in all honesty PUSA made it after all...

Let the probing begin! ;)

Of course those are flying in military airspace because it's military / CIA classified drones. At least the ones in the last 25 years. The earlier flying saucers and such were relatively slow and did not do do the fancier super high g-force flight maneuvers like sharp 85+ degree turns because they had to be piloted. Since computers as powerful as an Amiga 500 can manage the flight controls of a drone at supersonic and even hypersonic speed. A flight controller in a $39.99 quadcopter from China has the computing power for remote controlled and limited AI controlled flight of drones of any size and perform maneuvers that no human can perform in a cockpit in any plane. Some of these exercises are part of readiness training because the future of air and potentially space combat will be remote piloting of drones. Russia, China and even North Korea can someday attack U.S. soil through remote controlled drones.

don't blame me i voted for kodos

I'm voting for Ripley and Hicks this year. Just to be sure.

Atta boys

.

Meh, just a bunch of aircraft or balloons. No actual aliens. Let me know when the anal probing starts though.

You must have missed the top military whistle blower that is testifying under oath that the US has recovered multiple crashed non human vehicles and even bodies and has been covering it up for decades. Since that a few days ago, other military officials are coming forward with similar accounts. These are not random nuts. These are people with top clearance. One guy said that we have at least 12 craft.

Humans have barely left the cave in terms of geological time, so it’s pretty silly to think that we are anywhere near the pinnacle of technology or understanding. We can literally see the progress in our own lifetimes…imagine what we will be able to do in 1 million years if we make it.

While it's highly probably that we're not alone.... it's inversely probable that we've been visited and double inversely probable that what ever redneck backcorner of that swap with the truthers is the location.  Still tho...

I like that, top military officials, not some random nuts. You mean the guys that wasn't to nuke the planet are the sane ones? I've never laughed so hard.

Why is it improbable that aliens have visited?

Improbably given the vastness of other places available. Space is big and we’re not that important or even that interesting.

We crossed the ocean with sail boats risking life and limb to study ant hills. You dont think we would travel or send AI probes to other planets with weird early technological life forms if we could? The trip may be easy for them...AND most importantly curiosity is probably a universal precursor to technology...and so any civilization that has developed technology is most likely also curious and has a drive to explore.  

X, your layering assumptions. One being that we are of any interest to beings capable of interstellar travel and two, that they did not pass 100k years ago and kept going. Tooth fairy arguments don’t go very far.

This is not a tooth fairy argument. You are layering assumtions, One that we are not interesting, and two that there so few technological civilizations that multiple civilizations can't overlap in time.

We're not interesting.

But, working with your analogy, we're the ants. So, tell me how the planet has faired, non-bipedal species specifically?

Did the ants notice that they were being researched? Are ants even aware cities exist, and people exist, and that people are bigger and more impactful on the earth then they are? Maybe we are indeed the ants. In which case I feel confident our alien protectors will fix global warming for us after seeing how far we go with it.

I think more probably this is a whales - people situation. The whales only occasionally notice the interference caused be people - mostly boats - they have no idea it's systematic, and for the most part don't seem to have any conceptual framework for imagining it. Do whales recognize that boats are built by people as part of a system for global transportation and collection of aquatic resources which is only a small part of the whole artificial environment people have made on the earth? Even in this situation where the intelligence of the two animals is comparable, their environments and level of understanding of the world is extremely different.

assuming that earth is not unique in the universe, just uncommon, and other civilizations with slightly superior development exist - it's still likely their infrequent expeditions to research earth have little overlap with contemporary civilization. they either visited before we could notice, or very infrequently in ways we don't recognize as alien at all. because again, if we aren't unique, we wouldn't be particularly worth visiting, anymore than any individual ant colony. Most ants never see a person, and those that do probably don't know what they're looking at.

Humans are very interesting, and it’s a stupid argument to think that another species would not want to explore earth. And, we aren’t the only species on the planet. They probably are just as interested in all the other life. “Why would anyone want to come to a planet with millions of different life forms”. Ridiculous argument. Neil de grass Tyson sounds like an idiot when he dismissively says that as he spends his life studying science and would definitely want to go to another earth like planet. The argument doesn’t even make sense.

x-jla , who made aliens ...G ?

While it seems impossible to imagine that there is NOT advanced life somewhere in the vastness of space, and that at some point in time they have or will visit us, it seems to me far more likely that either Earth's future inhabitants have developed time travel and some of them got caught. Even more likely than that is that there are multiple parallel universes or timelines (to describe simply a far more complex situation) and that there is some interaction between them.

200 billion trillion stars in the observable universe. Keep in mind

That's why I think it's silly to think that there isn't other life. But also why it might be hard to find us here on our little planet.

Show me where these aliens exist in the Bible.

billions of trillions of possible places to explore... and we've made the list apparently. Typical self-centered human view. Of course we're unique and special. us us us, see how important we are? These alien wankers most def spent millions of years travelling through interstellar space just to hit us at this very moment! Of all the (puts on Sagan turtle neck sweater) billions and billions of possible options... we're the chosen ones and here's some fuzzy evidence!

Non, you are assuming a few things. 1. That it’s a big hurdle for a super advanced civilization to explore. It may be that they send out AI probes that just go everywhere and explore without any particular target. 2. That humans are the reason that they would come here when there are millions of other creatures on the planet. Most likely the totality of planet itself is the thing of interest.

3. You are assuming that they are from far away. Maybe they are from the “close” neighborhood of stars, and they don’t have the option/technology to explore more than a radius of a couple hundred light years.

So life within that bubble may be only on a handful of worlds.

if there are aliens they came from very far away. the physical limits of light speed travel would apply to aliens as well, unless they have some kind of "hidden variable" quantum physics thing going. if there are aliens, i would say there is a good chance they've always been here and probably can't leave too easily.

Wood guy, check this article out. https://www.space.com/aliens-time-traveling-humans-ufo-hypothesis.html

Interesting. It's not something I'm claiming to have come up with on my own; I've been interested in futurism, science, science fiction, time travel and aliens since I was a kid, and this theory just fits Occam's Razor as the simplest explanation, at least compared to aliens finding us and traveling to us. You just have to believe that travel through the fourth dimension is possible. Scientists have achieved time manipulation on an extremely small scale already.

Another aspect of UFOs that I find interesting is how they move. At my college there was a weird statue commemorating future achievement in electromagnetic flight. That's how UFOs appear to travel, as if pushed/pulled by a magnet. The Earth's core is a giant blob of iron so with the right technology, magnetic flight could be possible. In fact an even simpler explanation for UFOs (minus the aliens/humanoids) is that governments or Elon Musk or some other evil villain is working on electro-magnetic flight.

The Bible doesn't say one way or another about aliens and other planets. Maybe when God (if it were to be taken at its words) was speaking to the writers of the Book of Genesis. After all, God did not write the Bible. God was not the scribe. Anyway, why would God, if he indeed created the universe and all life in it, talk about other life on other planets to these 'children' who are nowhere ready for that. The Bible alludes to other life beyond. What about the angels and the chariot of fire in the sky and such. I would reason God, if it is true has created the universe and animate the universe to life has created a dynamic universe that is not a static creation but a dynamic one where life was created on many worlds. The seven days were more like metaphor than literal. Any sensible Christian would see God creating life on other worlds to be signs of the profound greatness of God's creation. Nor would we take the seven days too literally. I support creation with evolution. Creation that transformed universe of zero mass, zero energy, zero dimensions, into one of profound mass, energy, dimensions. So much so, everything came to 'life'. Yet, life that evolves.... an evolving creation. In my personal view, why not.

One theory might be that God innately is the universe or multiverse. Maybe, the universe/multiverse is a living quantum being so massive in scale that it is everything. We are like subatomic microbes in comparison. So what we see of "God" is an "avatar" of God itself that is the life force of mass, energy, and time. A "quantum being". One universe as we know it might be just like a single cell.

Between aliens, time travel and a Christian god, one stands out as illogical and unlikely.

It's more likely that 'god' was created by humans as a way to explain what they didn't know while also attempting to deal with their fear of death. That and it's a great way to control people.

God of the gaps... nothing worse than inserting a anthropocentric imaginary sky daddy to compensate for your insecurities and imaginative shortcomings. Applies to more than the steaming piles of dog shit religions feed their followers.

In short: if you're using god as proof for aliens you've managed to disprove both at the same time.

Define god.

An omnipotent being that created the universe and all life in it and cares who you sleep with, how you have sex, if you lie, and if you worship said omnipotent being.

I don’t think of it that way. I would say god is more like the sum of all consciousness or something like that. The separation of things is an illusion of individual consciousness. God is more like the reality of the universe. That’s how I think of it. As far as “created” the universe…I see it more like an emergent property of the universe. The term “god” is an acknowledgment of our limits of perception. As far as religion goes, that’s a cultural set of guidelines and narratives that probably has a net positive value for wellbeing. Not for everyone all the time, but overall it’s advantageous, which is why it persists. So I’m not anti-religion. And I’m not an atheist. I just think of both god and religion as separate things and as natural phenomena. By saying that god does not exist, you are simply saying that you won’t give a title to the totality of existence/nature. I just believe that the title is appropriate, because it admits humility to our understanding of reality and the fact that at some level above our limited minds the sum total of reality exists.

That's a god of the gaps philosophy. I don't buy it. Also admitting that humanity doesn't understand the totality of reality and that a total understanding of reality exists doesn't mean you MUST believe in a god. I think that way and I don't think there is any form of a god. Implying that you must believe in a god if you think that way is saying that humans don't know it all so there must be a god that did it. Again, god of the gaps philosophy.

x, see god of the gaps.... very easy to understand. Unfortunate that it goes so far over most layman's heads. Next up, define the invisible pink teapot in orbit beyond Saturn and explain, using objects within reach, how it's existence affects everything we do.

I didn’t say that you must believe in anything. You can believe whatever you want. Im not suggesting a “god” of the gaps, or of the unknown, Im suggesting a god of the unknowable and the total. Or more accurately that god is an appropriate title for the totality and the interconnected nature of reality. There is a big big difference there. Call it what you want, but the term god conveys a humility and respect and purpose that I think is appropriate, and acts to counter balance the nihilism that such big questions often provoke.

You can stand at the edge of the Grand Canyon and call it a “hole” or “magnificent”. The canyon will exist either way. The way you surrender your ego to it or not only has consequences for your life. The term “god” is an appropriate one for something as grand as the universe and everything in it from the beginning until the end. That’s big enough to earn that title, and I’m small and dumb enough to give that title to it.

x: "Im not suggesting a “god” of the gaps, " 

Yes.you.are. 

You're specifically suggesting this by inventing unquantifiable nonsense to justify your point.  

Does a "totality of nature" exist? Answer is yes. Is it unquantifiable? Yes. I call that god. You can call if bob, or poop, or the theory of everything or whatever you want. The term "god" is the only word that captures the vastness of it for me...

"An omnipotent being that created the universe and all life in it"... full stop. Everything else is superfluous. God as a omnipotent being can be something not understood. Maybe God *is* the universe. Life that exists in ways not human centric. Human understanding and perception is myopic / human oriented. Yet, God needs not hold any particular human understandable form. I speak of God not necessarily some humanoid "God". I speak of a God that is a quantum being of living matter and energy spanning maybe even a multiverse linked together across time and dimensions. We don't see the universe as living but maybe it is in a way we don't understand as living. I am opening a dialogue of life. To the microbes inside you, you are the universe. Maybe it's in a way no different but this time, we are the microbe.

and a person who calls it poop will have a different experience just like the person who calls the grand canyon a hole.

Technically, is the grand canyon not a hole?

It is. The point is that you can choose how to perceive it, and the way that you perceive it will affect your outlook on life. If you are at a park, and you see a cool blue bird, you can look at that as a random happening, or a series of events starting at the Big Bang that led to you and that bird crossing paths. Both are true.

Actually technically the Grand Canyon isn't a hole. Your perception of it doesn't impact the facts and science of it. That's the issue x-jla - you're basing your opinions on science and concepts you have misunderstood or know nothing about.

For example, who or how did the Big Bang happen? How did time, matter, and energy come into existence? Some being of some form put everything in motion otherwise we would just remain a singularity for newton's first law comes into place. We know the saying "An object at rest remains at rest, and an object in motion remains in motion at constant speed and in a straight line unless acted on by an unbalanced force." Another source explained to children: http://www.physics4kids.com/files/motion_laws.html ---- So, for a change of state, there has to be a force acting upon it. How did the singularity changed state in order for the Big Bang event to occur. Who or what force initiated or otherwise acted upon the singularity at the beginning of it all to initiate this change from singularity of infinitesimally small dimensions into such a vast and nearly infinite scale of geometry? I suspect because maybe the universe is like a cell of a body. A multiverse is like that of a multi-cell lifeform that grows. An organism like yet unlike anything we know and understand. Maybe, that's "God".

How many more ways are you guys going to skin the watchmaker argument?

Just reading through these attempts at reasoning fromX and Balkins is a Time Machine trip back in time at least 20y ago. I thought these were tired fallacies then… can’t imagine how they still survive nowadays.

I think it's interesting that x-jla is ignoring the science of energy and how it makes his view on aliens improbable to the point of impossible. This is basic scientific understanding that will take someone about 30 minutes of research to apply to space travel.

Where is my argument pertaining to time travel? No human knows the subject matter of quantum physics or time travel to the fullest. I present temporal-quantum entanglement of "God" in past, present, and future simultaneously. Not time travel but the quantum entangled existance of "God" in every point of time at the same time because "God" is quantum entangled with absolutely every proton, neutron, electron, photon, anti-photon, energy, and every element of everything including parallel universes, every universe, and every time line. You can't prove this because you can not exist there or process this magnitude. No instrument you can make can survive and process. The sensory overload and incapability of storing such volume of information. You alone can only process a minute fraction of what is. I'm not saying the Bible is factually true in its understanding or interpretation of God which is most accurately understood as "surpassing" all understanding. It surpasses human understanding because "God" is as alien and complex (if not more so) to you as you are to a single-cell microbe.

Whooooossssss.

“Your perception of it doesn't impact the facts and science of it.” Chad, rather than making up arguments that you pretend I’m making how about read what I actually wrote.

“I think it's interesting that x-jla is ignoring the science of energy and how it makes his view on aliens improbable to the point of impossible.” Space travel is not impossible, improbable yea, but improbable x trillions of potential civilizations is still a big number. We went from horse and buggy to mars rover in 100 years which is a fart in time. Do you believe that we will ever achieve interstellar travel? That’s all that’s required. I understand the difficulties of that, but technology will eventually overcome those challenges. And once again, you are judging aliens by human standards. A 10,000 year long multigenerational craft that drops probes as it passes worlds does not require light speeds. solar sail propulsion can achieve 10% light speed. If it drops probes as it passes solar systems the probes could reach planets in decades. The sail itself does not need to slow down. Just fly by and drop probes as it whips past a star every few hundred years.

bees don’t have a concept of self. The hive is the primary unit, and swarms can far out live any individual bee. A very old civilization that has advanced craft, but a social structure that is multigenerational can achieve things beyond what we can with the same technology. Shit, look at past generations and cathedrals that took 400-500 years to build. Even humans have pulled that off to a much lesser degree. Imagine an intelligent creature with the social order of ants or bees.

“Just reading through these attempts at reasoning fromX and Balkins is a Time Machine trip back in time at least 20y ago. I thought these were tired fallacies then… can’t imagine how they still survive nowadays. “. What happened 20 years ago besides the terrible music of the early 00’s like limp bizkit?

X, by 20y ago, I was referring to the start of the Facebook and myspace jive combined with everyone and their grandmother spouting pseudo philosophical gook just because they caught a 30second sound bit from a TED talk. Same as the idiots a few years ago who think they are smarter than the average wanker because they watched the big bang theory show.... yet never bothered to read any of the source material. Point is, the logical fallacies and bad circular self-serving arguments you make are the same people have been making forever. They don't go anywhere because they can't be substantiated so you're just yelling at metaphorical clouds.

To your other, more important point:

In the ancient realms of the 21st century, there existed a band whose name resonated with both admiration and controversy. Like a thunderous clash of swords, their music reverberated across the lands, leaving an indelible mark.

In the realm of music, where genres and styles intermingle, there emerged a group of bards known as Limp Bizkit. Led by their charismatic frontman, Fred Durst, they wielded a unique blend of heavy metal, rap, and rock. Their sound, like the forging of a powerful ring, captured the attention of a generation longing for rebellion and raw emotion.

In the Kingdom of Youth, where angst and defiance thrived, Limp Bizkit's music became a rallying cry. Their lyrics, like ancient incantations, resonated with the disenchanted souls, urging them to break free from the chains of conformity. In the darkest corners of society, where outcasts sought solace, their songs provided refuge and a sense of belonging.

The tale of Limp Bizkit's significance lies in their ability to bridge the divides between musical realms. With their fusion of genres, they shattered the boundaries that had long confined music. Just as the Fellowship of the Ring united beings of different races and backgrounds, Limp Bizkit brought together fans of various genres, transcending barriers and forging a new path.

Their influence extended beyond the realm of music, penetrating the cultural tapestry of the early 21st century. Limp Bizkit's music became the anthem for a new generation's rebellion against societal norms. Their thunderous beats and provocative lyrics ignited a fire within the hearts of youth, inspiring them to challenge the status quo.

Yet, like any tale, Limp Bizkit's story carried its share of controversy. As their popularity soared, critics arose, questioning the depths of their artistry. Some accused them of pandering to the masses, diluting the purity of their music. However, it is in these moments of scrutiny that their significance becomes even more pronounced.

Limp Bizkit became a symbol of the duality of fame and artistic integrity. Their rise to stardom represented the tumultuous path many artists walked in search of success. They stood as a testament to the fact that even in the face of adversity and skepticism, art could transcend boundaries and impact the world.

Thus, the significance of Limp Bizkit in the early 21st century lies in their ability to capture the essence of a generation, to give voice to the disenchanted, and to bridge the gaps between musical genres. Just as the One Ring held great power and allure, Limp Bizkit's music held sway over the hearts and minds of their listeners. Their contribution to the era will forever be etched in the annals of musical history, reminding us of the profound impact that music can have on a society yearning for change.

and scene.

“everyone and their grandmother spouting pseudo philosophical gook”. That’s an elitist notion of philosophy - an appeal to authority - as if only a “qualified” individual has the ability to form philosophical thoughts about unknown or unknowable phenomena. As far as aliens go, there is no “the science”. As we have seen, “the science” is a bs concept and is easily manipulated by non-scientific based concerns, like fear to talk about controversial topics, pressure from institutions, etc. ufos have a stigma. There are legit scientists who’ve taken the topic seriously and are willing to look at the evidence with an open mind, and a scientific rigor, like Avi Loeb. It takes a bit of bravery as a serious scientist to approach the topic.

Oh I think aliens exist. I just don't think they've been coming to visit an little insignificant species like us.

Let’s say their civilization is about 10 light years away. Closest star is about 4.2. Let’s say their civilization is 30 million years old. They notice a crazy ape in their neighborhood blasting off nukes and being horrible to each other and toying with space travel. Technologically advancing quickly. The math may tell them that we will be a threat in another 10k years. That’s probably a relatively short amount of time for such an old civilization. I think they would want to keep an eye on us. Scientists think that we are close to being able to detect chemical signatures of life and industrial activity on far away planets with out new telescopes. An advanced civilization may be able to easily do that and monitor the cosmos for dangers.

We may be on their terrorist watch list.

30 million year old civilization only 10 light years from us that is also aware of us? 

That would by our measurements using the Kardashev scale realistically be a type 4 or 5 civilization.   We're currently at a type 0.5 civilization at best.  

They would be so advanced that to us they would seem like gods. Our weapons would never even be considered a threat. A type 5 civilization would realistically not even be aware of our existence (we'd be like bacteria to them) Even if such a civilization were to want to 'keep an eye on us' they'd be so advanced it's doubtful that they would need to send physical craft to do so. 

Finally, any type 4 or 5 civilization wouldn't be concerned that we were 'only' 10,000 years we could be a threat to them. 

• They would understand the many things that would be likely to happen to us by our own doing that would destroy our society.
• They would understand the incredible insurmountable odd against us from developing past our current type 0.5 civilization.  
• They would also still be 30 million years ahead of us in tech so we'd never actually catch up to them and be a threat. 
• Even if we could become recognized as a possible future threat to their civilization it would be easy for them to simply destroy us without having to do much.

TLDR:  a civilization as old and advanced as you describe  wouldn't realistically send physical craft to our plant or any reason. 

this is my view. the aliens in a position to visit are probably so advanced we don't recognize their surveillance at all.

One more thing. 

In the original Kardashev scale there were  three types of civilizations: 

• Type I civilization is able to access all the energy available on its planet and store it for consumption.  We're not even close to doing this.  
• Type 2 civilization can directly consume the energy of a star. 
• Type 3 civilization is able to capture all the energy emitted by its galaxy. 

 It has been expanded to include:

• Type 4 civilization would almost be able to harness the energy content of the entire universe and with that, they could traverse the accelerating expansion of ALL space 
• Type 5 civilization would be so powerful they'd be nearly omnipotent.

Sure, but there are so many unknowns about their culture that it’s impossible to know their reaction to threats. Killing us may not be their MO. They may have evolved from a creature that uses camouflage, or a nomadic species that avoids threats by moving away. It’s all speculation. Point is, there are all sorts of reasons why they would want to observe us and the planet. Some are scientific curiosity…some pragmatic…some we couldn’t comprehend because they could be specific to the culture and logic of their specific species . It’s just silly to say that there are no motives to wanting to explore earth.

Midlanders point is one thing I’ve been skeptical of. If they could get here, why would they have 40’ long ships vs tiny dust size things that would not be noticeable.

You are completely ignoring my point that IF an alien civilization that was 30 million years ahead of us in evolution and technical advancement wanted to 'observe' us they wouldn't be sending physical craft of any size to do so. 

You say that it's silly to think that an alien civilization wouldn't want to explore earth. That's speculation on your part.

Logically an alien civilization 30 million years ahead of us would be so advanced we'd have nothing new to teach or interest them. They would of seen it already.  There is one exception though:  If earth was the only other habitable planet with life that the other species have ever found.  Logically that is such a remote possibility that it's impossible.  

I know you're having trouble understanding and accepting this because you're very self centered - you think the human race is special and thus you're special.  We're not and you're not.  You're only viewing aliens and their reasoning through you own cultural and racial biases.  You keep saying that we can't know what an alien civilization would want, think like, act like, ect.  However every single motivation or reasoning for such a civilization to come to earth is based in human biases and ego.  

its like saying that insects are so common why would we want to trek into the amazon to find a new insignificant beetle species. but we do. exploration for the sake of knowledge is probably the

*most logical explanation and the most common motive. Like I said, not all aliens will become technological, just like not all creatures on earth become technological, but when they do it’s likely that they possess curiosity, because that’s a requirement for creativity, which is a requirement for technological innovation.

x-jla wrote: 

“its like saying that insects are so common why would we want to trek into the amazon to find a new insignificant beetle species. but we do. Exploration for the sake of knowledge is probably the most logical explanation and the most common motive. “ 

Again, you’re assigning human motives and limited understanding to justify your reasoning. Humans explore this planet to such an extent because we don’t know what’s there. A better analogy would be like us going to Mars to understand if our hair smelled the same after not bathing for six months. There are easier methods to determine this that will be just as accurate. 

 “Like I said, not all aliens will become technological, just like not all creatures on earth become technological, but when they do it’s likely that they possess curiosity, because that’s a requirement for creativity, which is a requirement for technological innovation.” 

If the aliens you’re describing are 30 million years ahead of us and not technologically advanced, then they would be able to travel to our planet to explore it. Nor would they be able to remotely view our planet, its inhabitants, or be able to determine if we were a threat. For that to happen the alien civilization would need to be so advanced that we’d realistically not be of any interest to them.

Finally, while curiosity is a requirement for innovation it does not mean that any technologically advanced civilization would care about the earth or any other planet that didn’t impact them in some way. Again, you’re applying human traits and ego to justify the belief that our species (and you) are unique, special, and  interesting to another hypothetical species.

"If the aliens you’re describing are 30 million years ahead of us and not technologically advanced, then they would NOT be able to travel to our planet to explore it."

Sorry for the typo. 

you are getting hung up on the 30 mil number. Could be 1000 years ahead. I just threw that extreme out there. You are using an assumption about our "significance" to them to deny evidence of alien origin of ufos. Blood splatter is on the walls and you are putting a lack of motive in front of the evidence. The tic-tac ufo is probably the best evidence we (civilians) have. Our radar clocked this thing doing G's that would tear our craft apart by magnitudes... dropping from Space to 50 ft above sea level in 1 second. There are many many sightings on record that can't be explained. I find it less plausible that we or the Chinese have made such huge advances. The other option is aliens or time travelers or an orchestrated psy-op by the government.

x-jla wrote: 

 “you are getting hung up on the 30 mil number. Could be 1000 years ahead. I just threw that extreme out there. You are using an assumption about our "significance" to them to deny evidence of alien origin of ufos. Blood splatter is on the walls and you are putting a lack of motive in front of the evidence.” 

 I'm not hung up on the 30-million-year number. If the number was only 1,000 years ahead of human technology, they would still be so far beyond us that they wouldn't need to send any craft to observe us. You’re picking parts of my comments and trying to say if one isn’t correct then none of them are correct. 

 For an alien civilization to send a physical craft to observe us then: 

They’d need to have highly advanced tech. To be able to travel such a distance they’d need to be able to access an incredible amount of energy. Think of a type 3 civilization. I doubt such a civilization would need to send a physical craft as they could do it remotely. In addition, if they did send such a craft then I seriously doubt we’d be able to see it. 

 They’d need some type of motivation to visit us. Even an advanced civilization needs to concern with the amount of energy they spend to accomplish something. If they were so advanced there wouldn’t be much our planet could offer unless it was physical resources or that we are the only other life they’ve discovered in their entire history. That second motivation is highly unlikely. Now if the aliens where so advanced that they didn’t need to concern themselves with the expenditure of energy then they would be almost gods and I seriously doubt that we would matter to them. 

 “The tic-tac ufo is probably the best evidence we (civilians) have. Our radar clocked this thing doing G's that would tear our craft apart by magnitudes... dropping from Space to 50 ft above sea level in 1 second. There are many many sightings on record that can't be explained. “ 

Have any proof of the tic-tac UAP? 

 “I find it less plausible that we or the Chinese have made such huge advances. The other option is aliens or time travelers or an orchestrated psy-op by the government.”

I don’t find it implausible that the US or some other government has advanced tech that could do this. Think about this: the SR-71 blackbird was being flown in the late 1950’s. The stealth bomber as been around since 1985. There is a lot of US tech that is currently viewed as ‘cutting edge’ that’s been around for 50 years. Now consider that the US has the most UAP sightings by a factor of 1,000 than any other developed nation on the planet.

That or your 'tic tac' was just a error in monitoring equipment.  Without proof it could also be the person reporting this is lying.  Both are just a plausible without more information.  

But the SR-71 was still using jet propulsion, and the base science was there. Same as the nuke. The base science and physics for this type of tech does not exist yet.

As far as you know the physical technology for propulsion faster than solid or liquid rocket fuel doesn't exist yet. 

The science behind Ion drives, nuclear drives, wormholes, warping space, ect has existed for decades. We either don't have the tech to make it or (pay attention here, you're notice a trend) don't have access to the energy required to make it feasible.

It's all about the access to energy.  

Yes, and people interested in keeping their oil profits. That’s a possibility too. I just hope it’s aliens lol.

I take it you have no sources or proof of the speedy tic tac?

Beyond what is widely known?

Tons of stuff has been reported on the tic tac in media. I wouldn’t know where to start as far as a source. Just google it and you will find alot. Best interview imo about it is Lt. David fravor on the Lex Friedman podcast. He gets pretty deep into why he believes it’s not us.

I haven't seen anything on it. You say there is proof - provide it.

I said evidence, not proof. You haven’t heard of the tic-tac?

No. Provide links to the evidence then.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aB8zcAttP1E

This is a good place to start. Then you can look up all of the declassified docs on this event. Keep in mind, he is one of several pilots that saw this, and they were tracking on radar for days.

There is no single smoking gun, you’ll have to take the total evidence together. Imo his testimony along with the radar and the videos are strong evidence

That's what I thought you were referring to. It's a podcast from two years ago referencing an incident that occured in 2017. I'd continue to look up more info on this. You'll find some scientific papers and research that don't support this as being an alien craft of some sort but can't rule it out either.  

Before you get excited that not ruling out aliens is evidence that it could be aliens - it's not.  It's evidence that it isn't aliens but there is no factual proof showing that it isn't aliens.  As such scientists are not able to make a definitive statement that it's not aliens.   

 As you said, you need to take the total evidence . . . .

The podcast isn’t the evidence. Lol. There are dozens of articles and interviews. This is a good one to familiarize yourself. The incident happened in 2004. The NYT reported on a secret government program that studied ufos in 2017. The vids were released around 2020 or something.

Anyway, watch the video and research it.

Humans don't own the patents to motivations. Motivations that humans have may be motivations other life in the universe may have or had in their own development. To assume aliens will not have any related experiences in their history is assuming they will be entirely different. While it is true that it is possible a particular alien species from a particular planet might be very different. The gamut of possibilities is very wide so it can be similar or different or even a bit of both.

That's true to a point. 

There is no way to theorize about the possibilities of alien cultures without some amount of filter. The key is to understand that such a filter exists and not ignore possibilities that only align with only a certain bias.

This is not the same as having a logical understanding and reasoning of what is in the universe.  Realistically any alien life form from this dimension (important clarification) would have a  vast but still limited degree of possibilities.  This would be due to basic constants of the universe and energy.   

Could x-jla be correct that a type 5 alien civilization could be interested in us and be sending spacecraft to observe us - sure! It's just a possible that they'd be so advanced that they wouldn't even acknowledge our existence. The thing is that x-jla isn't willing to acknowledge any other possibilities except the ones he believes in. That is my issue with x-jla's views. He says to keep an open mind and no to be dismissive of other while he's doing just that. 

or that they are a type 1, 2, 3 civilization...I agree with you that a type 5 civilization will most likely be totally beyond the need to visit earth physically...

Im not being dismissive at all. I just think the idea that we are not interesting to any one out there is not a good argument because its a totaling argument.  Sure, we are probably not interesting to some aliens, and are to some.  1. We don't know who they are. so we cant predict a motive. 2. we dont know if motive is even a factor, because they could just seed the galaxy with random bots that find planets. May not be a big deal to them to do that. 

A type 1 civilization wouldn't be able to travel to our planet. A type 2 civilization may be able to however the energy requirements for near light speed travel would be more than what a star could produce. Realistically the amount of energy needed to do so would require a type 3 civilization. 

 You're right that we can't assign a true motive. However it's all about energy and the amount it would take to send a craft here in an amount of time that would produce useable results. For that to happen either a type 2 civilization would need to spend huge amounts of scarce resources to do so (like several stars) so they would realistically expect to return to at least equal the energy expenditure. This isn't a human bias but a fundamental law of our universe, aka conservation of energy. 

If the aliens where a type 3 or beyond civilization they'd have the energy to visit us but why? They could simply remotely view us without having to send a craft. See previous comment on the conservation of energy. Either way it's highly unlikely that an alien civilization would physically visit us without a motive. The motive that you keep giving is that human are worth studying and the aliens would learn from us.  That's a dismissive and self centered view.  They could visit us just to observe us but they'd be so advanced that I doubt we'd be seeing any trace of their existence.  

They may not be so individualistic where things need to be done in 1 lifetime. They may also live really long. These may be “slow” moving long term projects where light speed is not required. And just because they are 100k year old civilization does not mean that their technology increases at human rates, or continues to increase at the same rate after a certain point of achievement.

Again, it comes back to energy consumption.

Even if the aliens lived long lives or did multi generational voyages the energy required to run such vessels for so long would require tech far beyond ours.  It would take a spacecraft traveling at 1/4 the speed of light about 500 years to reach earth from the nearest area where we think a habitable planet could be.  

In addition our tech is advanced enough to detect the such spacecraft if they didn't have some type of 'cloaking' tech but again, this requires more energy. In order for such a civilization to even know we're here to send craft far enough ahead of them to observe us before we'd detect the larger ships would require a lot of energy. So much energy would still be needed for these 'slow' ships to traverse space for 100's of years to reach us that they would still be more technologically advanced than us.

I’m not sure why you think that there is a threshold where a certain level of technology equates to a lack of desire to explore and travel. It’s not obvious that is some sort of principle

Do you think humans will stop exploring in 3000 years? I think it will be the opposite.

Again, it's about the energy required. 

 Type 1 - 3 civilizations would require a need to spend that much energy to travel that far and that fast. Even moving at 50% the speed of light or doing a 500 year multi generational voyage would require the energy from a couple of starts. Using this amount of energy without gaining something back could literally destroy a civilization. 

 Again it's about the energy. 

 For type 4 and 5 civilizations who could afford to use such energy would be able to explore just to explore. The issue is that such a civilization would be nearly omnipotent in their abilities. They realistically wouldn't need to physically travel to a location to explore it - they'd be able to do it remotely. 

The other plausible outcome of such an advanced civilization is that they simply don't care about lesser life forms. Not because they are elitist but because they are so different that they can't recognize other life forms as being sentient life. Think of a life form of pure energy that has billions of years of knowledge, can cause things to happen by thought alone, and can view / learn about any place in the universe (or multiverse) at will. Those types of beings aren't going to be doing much exploring because they already know everything.

Then again they could still be exploring because they have never found any other life in the universe (multiverse) other than themselves.  That's realistically not probable though.  There is alien life out there, we just haven't seen it yet for a variety of reasons.  

You are putting too much stake in the kardashev scale. The scale is limited by what we know about energy and propulsion. These craft may have a different way of moving that don’t require such a big energy input.

Actually no. 

The Kardashev scale isn't about our understanding of energy and propulsion. It's uses the basic understanding of how energy behaves in the universe to speculate about possible alien civilizations. 

 That's what you don't seem to understand anything about. The fundamental laws of how energy behaves in the universe rather rigid. We've proven this throughout history and continue to prove it. 

Even current research into folding space / time, wormholes (aka hopping dimension), dark matter, and black holes has shown that our understanding of the behavior of energy is correct. 

One final thing, propulsion and means of changing location are not the same thing. You keep thinking that chaining somethings location won't take energy - it dose.  Depending on the objects mass and the distance you want its location to change it can take a lot of energy.  There is no way around that.  Period, end of discussion.  

No I understand how physics works. What I’m saying is that it may be possible to propel a craft without “pushing” it through space. Yes, there are things like quantum entanglement that are potentially loopholes in our ridged understanding

So they could potentially hack the quantum world which would allow things beyond our understanding of standard physics.

No one in the Victorian era would have dreamed of nuclear energy. We are the Victorian era of some future us. They are laughing that we didn’t know about quark drives or some weird shit.

My disagreement is that you are drawing these lines and assuming that space travel is either high cost and too hard, or low cost and too easy to bother. Sure there could be lots of that, but lots in between

That is not what I'm assuming and I never said any of that. I said that long distance space travel will require high amounts of energy. Depending on a civilizations level of technological development this could could 'cost' them a lot or a little. 

I never said that if it was too easy aliens wouldn't 'bother' to visit us.  I said that if a civilization could produce the energy needed for long distance space travel without a high 'cost' then it would be more likely that they would observe us remotely and not need to send physical craft.

There are going to be a wide range of different scenarios between the two I've illustrated.  However,  because of the amount of energy required for these scenarios to happen all the different options are going to be clustered around one scenario or the other.  

I understand what you are saying. You are probably partially correct, but there are so many planets in the observable universe that partly correct or mostly correct or even correct in 99% of the cases still amounts to an enormous potential for life forms who are willing and capable to explore- be it from high energy technology like harnessing anti-matter, or from slower low energy systems like light sails combined with a long term social structure. I’m not saying that you are wrong, I’m just saying you are giving an incomplete range of possibilities

And, as for remote viewing, that may be possible with some sort of advanced grasp of the quantum world. And at that point, teleportation may even be doable. So it may be that it’s just as easy to teleport a ship as it is to view remote. Or, the ship may not even be a physical object, but instead a projection or hologram…and they may be controlling it from light years away in real time with entanglement…like playing a video game

Not really. 

The options I've been 'giving' are realistic and would apply to nearly everything - including the 1% of cases you're referring to. The options I'm giving regarding energy and such don't exclude those 1% of cases from being possible - quite the opposite. They just make them very improbable. 

Just an FYI - these aren't my opinions or by understanding of things. I'm not that intelligent or well researched. They're based on the findings of astrophysicist, theoretical physicists, engineers, ect. Some of these people are friends of mine others are publicly recognized leaders in their fields. All of them are renowned and respected in their fields of expertise.

Solar sails don’t require high energy. And I don’t care if you friends have nobel prizes they can’t possibly rule out motive of aliens to visiting earth regardless of how advanced they are and how much energy that they can harness

“The options I'm giving regarding energy and such don't exclude those 1% of cases from being possible - quite the opposite. They just make them very improbable.” This doesn’t make much sense. Can you explain?

“Solar sails have a maximum speed which is 10% the speed of light, which equates to 18,600 miles per second or, 67,100,000 mph.“. 100 light years takes 1000 years. That may sound like alot to you, but that’s because we evolved from apes. Other creatures will have a completely different timescale of how they view progress and civilization as I said. There are too many unknowns and possibilities for you to come up with your broad and totaling rule of thumb

Can you provide a citation that excludes type 1,2,3,4 civilizations from wanting to explore earth?

Intergalactic travel may be impossible-improbable, but within the Milky Way there are hundreds of billions of star systems

Here a few examples.

Aagin - type 1-2 civilizations may want to be able to explore earth - they just can't with their current tech. 

Type 3 to 5 may want to explore earth but the more advanced their tech the less likely they'd do in 'person' or with physical craft.  When you get to type 4 and 5 civilizations they could be so advanced they wouldn't even recognize we exist (think humans looking at a spec of dust) or simply don't see a need because they already know everything about us.  

https://medium.com/predict/3-reasons-why-aliens-wouldnt-visit-earth-even-if-they-could-575b89def681

https://www.livescience.com/al...

https://www.space.com/fermi-pa...

https://www.scientificamerican...

Those articles assume aliens haven’t visited earth. That’s a big assumption and dismissing all of the evidence to the contrary. The speculation is based on that assumption. Congress and the pentagon are taking this seriously, and have been investigating it for several decades. They have concluded with the help of scientists that many sightings remain unexplainable. This is not nothing. I understand that the scientific community has a high threshold for proof, and that’s good, but it also makes them sort of inflexible in their thinking on such topics. Extraordinary evidence is not available. Lots of weaker evidence and testimonies are available, and the scientific community is mostly not interested in that.

Truth in science about things of ground breaking nature are NEVER found at the mainstream level. Discover is always made by outliers. “The science” is not a real thing. Few things in science are settled

You’re diverging subjects again x-jla. 

 Our original discussion was about the likelihood that aliens are currently physically visiting the earth. 

 You asked for: “Can you provide a citation that excludes type 1,2,3,4 civilizations from wanting to explore earth?” 

Those are all examples of why aliens haven’t or wouldn’t want to visit earth. 

 The scientific community isn’t being inflexible, quite the opposite. or denying that aliens don’t exist or that they wouldn’t want to visit earth. There isn’t any evidence that aliens have visited earth. If there is anecdotal evidence but that’s not evidence. Again, that doesn’t mean it hasn’t or isn’t happening.  Scientists are very clear that because there is no proof that aliens don’t exist and are not or have not visited earth there is a possibility that they are and have / currently are. 

 I’ve provided you with plenty of evidence that there are realistic reasons why aliens wouldn’t or couldn’t physically visit earth. There isn’t any evidence that aliens have visited earth. If there is anecdotal evidence but that’s not evidence. Again, that doesn’t mean it hasn’t or isn’t happening. 

Your response to all this has been ‘but what if was something so fantastical that we couldn’t possibly conceive of or recognize it’ (paraphrased) Ignoring that if something was that fantastical that we wouldn’t’ be able to even recognize it existed. You’re basically just using a ‘god of the gaps’ philosophy but replacing aliens with god and saying that you're keeping an open mind.  

I think this 'discussion' has run its course.  You're clearly not going to give up your god of the gaps view and this isn't something I'm going to continue to entertain.  Goodbye.  

I’m saying that you are making broad conclusions that aliens visiting earth is improbable-impossible. These conclusions are based on assumptions that can easily be punched full of holes with a little imagination. One assumption that you made was that high energy propulsion is required to visit earth. I have an example of why this is not necessarily true. The other assumption that you made is that civilizations capable of high energy propulsion or some other novel form of travel would be too advanced to care about earth. That assumption is an impossible one to make because you can’t know the motivations of another species from another world. I gave an example of why “motive” may not even be a factor, and how a civilization could potentially release AI probes that randomly find worlds. Lastly, you are posting articles that are post rationalized from a potentially false base that aliens haven’t visited. We don’t know that, but the articles and the Fermi paradox itself falsely start from that assumption and rationalize from there.

Lastly, you are putting too much stake in the Kardeshev scale. That scale assumes that high energy abilities equals advancement. This is a very human way of looking at things. Perhaps a civilization exists where all of their technology is geared towards bio engineering. They may have type 1 grasp on energy, so they can get out in space, but a type 4 grasp on biology so they can engineer themselves to live to be millions of years old. The difficulty of Space travel is just as effectively mitigated by manipulation of the time requirement as it is by manipulating the velocity requirement. It may be the case that a species is very primitive on the energy scale, but so advanced at biologically engineering itself that it can drift in space without a mechanical craft. A planet with a super low escape velocity would allow all sorts of low energy evolution of space technology.

Point is, as rare as space travel may be, if 1 in a billion can do it, that’s still trillions of civilizations that can travel in space.

And being that we are one, that’s one data point right there.

Space travel isn't the same as a space fairing civilization that can move between galaxies. The rest of your above three posts are just more god of the gaps philosophy combined with poor reading comprehension. IE: I didn't say aliens couldn't travel in space - I said that without a sufficient level of tech (be it mechanical or biological based) and the ability to harness energy long space travel isn't realistic. You can keep commenting and have the last word on this but I'm done debating this with you.

Boy, you’re stubborn. I think I’ve said all that needs to be on that. If it one day is revealed that aliens are indeed visiting I will add it to the list of told you so’s.

how did you get here? did you fly in a spaceship? if so, how did you manage the energy requirements?

Solar panels, solar wind, and geothermal. The future of space travel is green! ;)

Also, Le Cour - you know you're not supposed to tell anyone.  We now have to nuralize everyone in the this thread expect Rick and x-jla.  

sure... whatever you say. Why are you even here?

Who is this rube?