This may come off as a downer for a post but I'd just love some honest insight from all of you so I can make a more sound decision and gain some clarity.
I pursued my B.Arch in 2012 and I couldn't finish it because I had financial trouble and also had personal issues. I felt guilty to pursue it because I lost my confidence and thought I'd fail or something so it seemed like the financially most practical solution. I graduated with an Interior Design degree and graduated much earlier with good grades.
Fast forward to trying to land a job, it was hard. I got short lived experience as an Interior designer and then became a designer for two years at a furniture company. It definitely felt like I was not doing what I really wanted. I still wanted to do architecture.
Now I'm looking at graduate programs but I worry about the job market, my own capabilities and most of all, never getting my big break. So far, it hasn't been the case, i've never had the opportunity of working with a big firm. From there, I do plan to grow further and possibly go into research. But I feel I haven't got my break till now. I'm 27. I hope I don't sound whiny or annoying. I understand the world is going through a lot right now and some of you might be facing problems as well. This is coming from a place of doubt and fear. Masters is not cheap. I just wonder if I'm not cut out for another jab at this and pursue what I like.
Please share your stories and journeys as well. I'd love to hear it.
I did a 5-year M.Arch (no longer offered) graduating in 2010. It was a dark time in the arch market.
I worked at a place very much like your furniture design company for 3.5 years. While there I busted my ass, not only on professional projects, but growing my skills, mastering software, and doing competition and independent work to bolster my portfolio.
I got an arch job in 2014. I immediately started studying and got my license in 2015. From 2014-2018, I switched jobs 3x, working my way up to one of the best (design-focused) firms in the country by consistently doing great work while also nearly working myself to death.
It's 2021 now. I'm burned out, my body is flabby and emaciated as only an architect can be, and I don't even know whether I find my job enjoyable anymore. I have a crippling caffeine addiction, still haven't paid off my loans, and was on a hefty pay cut for the past year due to pandemic.
I probably wouldn't take the same route since making it here was so dependent on luck and the kind of hard work that really wears you down. If I were you I'd find an ID job at an architecture firm and try to grow into a role that gets you most of what you want without the crippling debt and 2-3 more years of school.
How many hours do you work in average per week in your one of the best design focused firm? Is it with overtime pay? From the sound of it, you are not that happy to be in that firm. Just curious, never worked in
"one of the best design firm".
Mar 29, 21 12:03 pm ·
·
thisisnotmyname
50-58 hours per week was the unspoken minimum expected at the fancy firm (winner of just about every AIA award there is) I worked at. Staff was paid fixed salaries with no overtime pay. Year end bonus would be an amount equal to two weeks pay, four weeks in a really good year. People that only worked 40 hours a week for extended periods would be laid off.
Ah, typical exploitative firm forming the overwork culture. Do you think it is worth?
Mar 29, 21 12:40 pm ·
·
archanonymous
TINMN has it about right.
I average 61-63 hours a week. On salary, no OT pay, not great bonuses.
Is it worth it? No.
Is it worth it to spend 40-45 hours a week at whatever mediocre firm turning out banal buildings for lazy/ cheap/ disinterested clients in established building typologies with banal materials and poor performance/ environmental impact? Also no.
I would only recommend it as something a person should do for a short stint of one year or so. The firm's equipment, library, and production staff were above average, and exposure to that had some value for me. It also showed me how not to mange a firm.
I understand the satisfaction and pride if you are the lead designer seeing your ideas come to realization. But if you are just there to do stair detail drafting, CA paper shoving or project schedule/fee managing. I doubt you care much about the level of design and innovation after a while.
Well I guess that's why I am not in one. I would be satisfied with a glass LEED box building. I am OK with working 60-80 Hrs, but it has to come with $$. Would rather get extra $$ and build myself the self designed custom house to wake up to every day rather than serving as tools for starchitects.
I truly believe you can do any projects with 40 Hrs of honest work. If you can't, your management has problems. Anyway push on guys. Just take a 2 Hr lunch to drag your hours out to appear working long hours.
Is it worth it to spend 40-45 hours a week at whatever mediocre firm...
this is a false binary, and a myth that is continually perpetuated within the architectural elite, especially among those who are prisoners at "starcitect" firms, usually necessary to justify their continued suffering.
i've worked at such a toxic firm, but currently i work at a "top design" firm within my industry in nyc and we average 40-50 hour weeks max.
there are other options out there archanonymous, you just need to change your position so you can see things from a different perspective.
Mar 30, 21 10:26 am ·
·
square.
though, to be clear, i would not consider it a "fancy" celebrity firm in the way that you have described.
in other words, maybe giving a little on things like "recognition" and "prestige," which are usually completely constructed things, could land you in a place that does good, quality design work that is well known and well regarded, without the bullshit that comes with out-dated notions of architectural celebrity.
Mar 30, 21 10:38 am ·
·
archanonymous
Square - appreciate the perspective. I think I may need to move to find the kind of firm you describe, but agree - they are out there. In my current market I've yet to find a compelling (enough) alternative. Currently have an offer pending for $25k more than I make now, at a firm working more reasonable hours. I really feel that spending even 40 hours a week on work I'm not passionate about is not worth the extra money.
seems like it might be a good stepping stone though. trust me, working for a firm that looks at you as a person and not an expendable cog has may positive side affects, especially outside of the workplace. my mental health has been dramatically different since i left the abusive work place.
Mar 30, 21 11:08 am ·
·
Jay1122
Roles and responsibilities also matter. I would rather be a PA in charge of a boring box in mediocre firm than being Gehry's section drawing pigeonhole guy. Especially if you want to start your own business one day.
I average 61-63 hours a week. On salary, no OT pay, not great bonuses.
Is it worth it? No.
Is it worth it to spend 40-45 hours a week at whatever mediocre firm turning out banal buildings for lazy/ cheap/ disinterested clients in established building typologies with banal materials and poor performance/ environmental impact? Also no.
Just want to reply to this.
60 hours a week for an entire 52 week year = 3,120 hours.
40 hours a week for an entire 52 week year = 2,080 hours.
That's a difference of =1,040 hours
which equals 43 calendar days, or 130 (8) hour work days.
That's insane. That's 4 months of free labor PER year that you are just giving away.
I'm sure others here will appreciate your analysis, but trust me - I know how much extra I work.
There are also intrinsic rewards in doing great work that can't be measured in dollars.
I guess I could rephrase as "is working 60+ hours a week doing amazing capital-A Architecture projects financially worth it? No. Spiritually? Yes."
"Is working 40-45 hours a week at your typical firm making buildings financially worth it? Yes. Spiritually? No."
Mar 30, 21 3:03 pm ·
·
Wood Guy
You could look at it as giving away time, but more accurately it's just reducing your hourly pay. If you have an $80K salary and think you should work 2080 hours a year, that's about $38/hr. If you work 60 hours a week, it's more like $26/hr. You can bring in ideas like overtime pay and benefits, but those all break down into adjustments to hourly pay.
There's nothing right or wrong about working 60-hour weeks, other than doing it for 25 years will burn you out. (Ask me how I know...)
Seeing people talk about 60 hour work weeks for no financial incentive boggles my mind. I understand that I am likely more financially motivated than the average architect, but the idea of just giving away time like that is crazy. It's why people complain about architects not making "enough" money, there's a whole subsect of people living in some of the most expensive cities in the world giving 1/3 of their earnings away for free.
There's nothing right or wrong about working 60-hour weeks*
*if you a) have a vested interest/ownership stake in the company, b) are pursuing your own creative pursuits, or c) are saving actual lives.
otherwise, many people have fought too hard and too long for the 40 hour work week in normal business and work settings. let's move things forward, not backwards.
I guess I could rephrase as "is working 60+ hours a week doing amazing capital-A Architecture projects financially worth it? No. Spiritually? Yes
Your boss is not your spiritual advisor. He/She benefits financially when you don't advocate for yourself. They are your adversary and currently you are giving him/her the tools to pick your pocket. If the project won't be "built" without your labor, then that's the clients problem, not yours. Push up on management, they in turn should demand more fee to pay for the work you and your coworkers are doing. Working 16 months a year for 12 months pay is wreckless and devaluing yourself individually, and the profession more broadly. If you need spiritual fulfillment, join the clergy. Or better yet, read Marx.
I wrote a blog post a while back to interns about not working for free. I didn't realize I'd need to tell people who graduated 10+ years ago the same (slightly edited to fit this context):
"You want to [find spiritual fulfillment] and not get paid for it, fine. Volunteer for a non-profit and do something worthwhile with your time ... in the meantime, keep a solid job working for a decent wage so I can go home on time and get paid a decent wage. There are tons of good causes you could get involved in that would benefit from your willingness to volunteer. Many of them even need design services. Your employer is not one of them."
[...]
"You have suffered enough. We have suffered enough. It's time you stood up for yourself and decided you should be compensated like an adult for what you offer to the world. You're not alone. I'm right there with you, and many others are as well. Some of us have managed to find work for relatively decent pay, and you should too. We'll all be better off for it."
Are you expecting assurance that moving into architecture and doing a Masters will make you happy again? or that finishing a masters will land you a better job than ID? I don't think anybody can give you that assurance; we completed a house recently as AoR where the main designer was an ID, built his relationship with the client by doing his chicago condo and then moved into design his house. What I'm trying to say is titles and academic credentials mean little when you have the skills and the personal interaction that will put you in the position you are looking for. We are currently remodeling one of our own old houses, and the lead is the ID, so don't limit yourself because of your title.
Did you enjoy your time in the ID firm? I would suggest trying to get another job in an ID firm for a year or two and see if you like it better than the furniture company. ID is frequently more fun and more money than architecture. Also, at 27 you are still *very* young for architecture. Don’t panic about another few years of figuring it out!
Man, a dislike!? Maybe I should have clarified...I meant mainly ADA, and a few other basics. No, you can't put that (insert object) right next to the door, hotel room walls are thicker than 2 inches (are we still in school where floor structures are equally thin?), and no, you can't mount that fancy light fixture 5 ft above the walkline of the stair. I've worked with a few bad ones but certainly not saying all are bad. At least I get a laugh. Knowing a tiny bit about codes & constructability will go a long way in ID and architecture.
Not sure which part of world you are in. The path to follow directly relates to your situation and family background, contacts and money you have.
If you can, work directly with a firm for few years and try to build your brand, know few people and get clients and eventually start your own once you have few projects. The good thing with ID is that pay is higher and quick projects.
There is no point in working as architect for someone else unless you are partner or associate to that firm. Which is tough for big firms but if you think you are seriously talented, go for it else find a new firm and stick to it and help them to grow.
There are a lot of ways. And there is no simple answer. Everyone has their own experiences and we would never fir in your shows. Trust in what you think your heart wants and go for it.
Doubts
Hey all!
This may come off as a downer for a post but I'd just love some honest insight from all of you so I can make a more sound decision and gain some clarity.
I pursued my B.Arch in 2012 and I couldn't finish it because I had financial trouble and also had personal issues. I felt guilty to pursue it because I lost my confidence and thought I'd fail or something so it seemed like the financially most practical solution. I graduated with an Interior Design degree and graduated much earlier with good grades.
Fast forward to trying to land a job, it was hard. I got short lived experience as an Interior designer and then became a designer for two years at a furniture company. It definitely felt like I was not doing what I really wanted. I still wanted to do architecture.
Now I'm looking at graduate programs but I worry about the job market, my own capabilities and most of all, never getting my big break. So far, it hasn't been the case, i've never had the opportunity of working with a big firm. From there, I do plan to grow further and possibly go into research. But I feel I haven't got my break till now. I'm 27. I hope I don't sound whiny or annoying. I understand the world is going through a lot right now and some of you might be facing problems as well. This is coming from a place of doubt and fear. Masters is not cheap. I just wonder if I'm not cut out for another jab at this and pursue what I like.
Please share your stories and journeys as well. I'd love to hear it.
I did a 5-year M.Arch (no longer offered) graduating in 2010. It was a dark time in the arch market.
I worked at a place very much like your furniture design company for 3.5 years. While there I busted my ass, not only on professional projects, but growing my skills, mastering software, and doing competition and independent work to bolster my portfolio.
I got an arch job in 2014. I immediately started studying and got my license in 2015. From 2014-2018, I switched jobs 3x, working my way up to one of the best (design-focused) firms in the country by consistently doing great work while also nearly working myself to death.
It's 2021 now. I'm burned out, my body is flabby and emaciated as only an architect can be, and I don't even know whether I find my job enjoyable anymore. I have a crippling caffeine addiction, still haven't paid off my loans, and was on a hefty pay cut for the past year due to pandemic.
I probably wouldn't take the same route since making it here was so dependent on luck and the kind of hard work that really wears you down. If I were you I'd find an ID job at an architecture firm and try to grow into a role that gets you most of what you want without the crippling debt and 2-3 more years of school.
How many hours do you work in average per week in your one of the best design focused firm? Is it with overtime pay? From the sound of it, you are not that happy to be in that firm. Just curious, never worked in "one of the best design firm".
50-58 hours per week was the unspoken minimum expected at the fancy firm (winner of just about every AIA award there is) I worked at. Staff was paid fixed salaries with no overtime pay. Year end bonus would be an amount equal to two weeks pay, four weeks in a really good year. People that only worked 40 hours a week for extended periods would be laid off.
Ah, typical exploitative firm forming the overwork culture. Do you think it is worth?
TINMN has it about right.
I average 61-63 hours a week. On salary, no OT pay, not great bonuses.
Is it worth it? No.
Is it worth it to spend 40-45 hours a week at whatever mediocre firm turning out banal buildings for lazy/ cheap/ disinterested clients in established building typologies with banal materials and poor performance/ environmental impact? Also no.
I would only recommend it as something a person should do for a short stint of one year or so. The firm's equipment, library, and production staff were above average, and exposure to that had some value for me. It also showed me how not to mange a firm.
I understand the satisfaction and pride if you are the lead designer seeing your ideas come to realization. But if you are just there to do stair detail drafting, CA paper shoving or project schedule/fee managing. I doubt you care much about the level of design and innovation after a while.
Well I guess that's why I am not in one. I would be satisfied with a glass LEED box building. I am OK with working 60-80 Hrs, but it has to come with $$. Would rather get extra $$ and build myself the self designed custom house to wake up to every day rather than serving as tools for starchitects.
I truly believe you can do any projects with 40 Hrs of honest work. If you can't, your management has problems. Anyway push on guys. Just take a 2 Hr lunch to drag your hours out to appear working long hours.
Is it worth it to spend 40-45 hours a week at whatever mediocre firm...
this is a false binary, and a myth that is continually perpetuated within the architectural elite, especially among those who are prisoners at "starcitect" firms, usually necessary to justify their continued suffering.
i've worked at such a toxic firm, but currently i work at a "top design" firm within my industry in nyc and we average 40-50 hour weeks max.
there are other options out there archanonymous, you just need to change your position so you can see things from a different perspective.
though, to be clear, i would not consider it a "fancy" celebrity firm in the way that you have described.
in other words, maybe giving a little on things like "recognition" and "prestige," which are usually completely constructed things, could land you in a place that does good, quality design work that is well known and well regarded, without the bullshit that comes with out-dated notions of architectural celebrity.
Square - appreciate the perspective. I think I may need to move to find the kind of firm you describe, but agree - they are out there. In my current market I've yet to find a compelling (enough) alternative. Currently have an offer pending for $25k more than I make now, at a firm working more reasonable hours. I really feel that spending even 40 hours a week on work I'm not passionate about is not worth the extra money.
Damnit, lost my edit! Sigh oh well.
seems like it might be a good stepping stone though. trust me, working for a firm that looks at you as a person and not an expendable cog has may positive side affects, especially outside of the workplace. my mental health has been dramatically different since i left the abusive work place.
Roles and responsibilities also matter. I would rather be a PA in charge of a boring box in mediocre firm than being Gehry's section drawing pigeonhole guy. Especially if you want to start your own business one day.
I average 61-63 hours a week. On salary, no OT pay, not great bonuses. Is it worth it? No. Is it worth it to spend 40-45 hours a week at whatever mediocre firm turning out banal buildings for lazy/ cheap/ disinterested clients in established building typologies with banal materials and poor performance/ environmental impact? Also no.
Just want to reply to this.
60 hours a week for an entire 52 week year = 3,120 hours.
40 hours a week for an entire 52 week year = 2,080 hours.
That's a difference of =1,040 hours
which equals 43 calendar days, or 130 (8) hour work days.
That's insane. That's 4 months of free labor PER year that you are just giving away.
I'm sure others here will appreciate your analysis, but trust me - I know how much extra I work.
There are also intrinsic rewards in doing great work that can't be measured in dollars.
I guess I could rephrase as "is working 60+ hours a week doing amazing capital-A Architecture projects financially worth it? No. Spiritually? Yes."
"Is working 40-45 hours a week at your typical firm making buildings financially worth it? Yes. Spiritually? No."
You could look at it as giving away time, but more accurately it's just reducing your hourly pay. If you have an $80K salary and think you should work 2080 hours a year, that's about $38/hr. If you work 60 hours a week, it's more like $26/hr. You can bring in ideas like overtime pay and benefits, but those all break down into adjustments to hourly pay.
There's nothing right or wrong about working 60-hour weeks, other than doing it for 25 years will burn you out. (Ask me how I know...)
Seeing people talk about 60 hour work weeks for no financial incentive boggles my mind. I understand that I am likely more financially motivated than the average architect, but the idea of just giving away time like that is crazy. It's why people complain about architects not making "enough" money, there's a whole subsect of people living in some of the most expensive cities in the world giving 1/3 of their earnings away for free.
There's nothing right or wrong about working 60-hour weeks*
*if you a) have a vested interest/ownership stake in the company, b) are pursuing your own creative pursuits, or c) are saving actual lives.
otherwise, many people have fought too hard and too long for the 40 hour work week in normal business and work settings. let's move things forward, not backwards.
I guess I could rephrase as "is working 60+ hours a week doing amazing capital-A Architecture projects financially worth it? No. Spiritually? Yes
Your boss is not your spiritual advisor. He/She benefits financially when you don't advocate for yourself. They are your adversary and currently you are giving him/her the tools to pick your pocket. If the project won't be "built" without your labor, then that's the clients problem, not yours. Push up on management, they in turn should demand more fee to pay for the work you and your coworkers are doing. Working 16 months a year for 12 months pay is wreckless and devaluing yourself individually, and the profession more broadly. If you need spiritual fulfillment, join the clergy. Or better yet, read Marx.
I think everyone needs spiritual fulfillment? Most Americans seem to think they'll get it from money though.
If you're getting spiritual fulfillment from toiling away at work for extended hours without pay, you're in a cult
Here are a few links from the first page of a Google search on the topic: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/20/stanford-study-longer-hours-doesnt-make-you-more-productive-heres-how-to-get-more-done-by-doing-less.html https://hbr.org/2015/08/the-research-is-clear-long-hours-backfire-for-people-and-for-companies https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/six-hour-work-day-increases-productivity-so-will-britain-and-america-adopt-one-sweden-a7066961.html https://youmatter.world/en/schedules-working-days-productivity/ https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315670177_Working_Hours_and_Productivity
I wrote a blog post a while back to interns about not working for free. I didn't realize I'd need to tell people who graduated 10+ years ago the same (slightly edited to fit this context):
"You want to [find spiritual fulfillment] and not get paid for it, fine. Volunteer for a non-profit and do something worthwhile with your time ... in the meantime, keep a solid job working for a decent wage so I can go home on time and get paid a decent wage. There are tons of good causes you could get involved in that would benefit from your willingness to volunteer. Many of them even need design services. Your employer is not one of them."
[...]
"You have suffered enough. We have suffered enough. It's time you stood up for yourself and decided you should be compensated like an adult for what you offer to the world. You're not alone. I'm right there with you, and many others are as well. Some of us have managed to find work for relatively decent pay, and you should too. We'll all be better off for it."
https://archinect.com/arch-ellipsis/can-we-talk
Are you expecting assurance that moving into architecture and doing a Masters will make you happy again? or that finishing a masters will land you a better job than ID? I don't think anybody can give you that assurance; we completed a house recently as AoR where the main designer was an ID, built his relationship with the client by doing his chicago condo and then moved into design his house. What I'm trying to say is titles and academic credentials mean little when you have the skills and the personal interaction that will put you in the position you are looking for. We are currently remodeling one of our own old houses, and the lead is the ID, so don't limit yourself because of your title.
Did you enjoy your time in the ID firm? I would suggest trying to get another job in an ID firm for a year or two and see if you like it better than the furniture company. ID is frequently more fun and more money than architecture. Also, at 27 you are still *very* young for architecture. Don’t panic about another few years of figuring it out!
"ID is frequently more fun and more money..."
And less liability.
Just try not to be one of the ID’s that knows jack about building codes ;)
I've met more architects that know jack about building codes than IDs, but that's probably because I've simply met more architects. IDs get a bad rap.
Man, a dislike!? Maybe I should have clarified...I meant mainly ADA, and a few other basics. No, you can't put that (insert object) right next to the door, hotel room walls are thicker than 2 inches (are we still in school where floor structures are equally thin?), and no, you can't mount that fancy light fixture 5 ft above the walkline of the stair. I've worked with a few bad ones but certainly not saying all are bad. At least I get a laugh. Knowing a tiny bit about codes & constructability will go a long way in ID and architecture.
I'd be willing to bet that most licensed interior designers know more about building codes as they apply to their work than you do.
I'm sure they do. No need to make it personal.
Not sure which part of world you are in. The path to follow directly relates to your situation and family background, contacts and money you have.
If you can, work directly with a firm for few years and try to build your brand, know few people and get clients and eventually start your own once you have few projects. The good thing with ID is that pay is higher and quick projects.
There is no point in working as architect for someone else unless you are partner or associate to that firm. Which is tough for big firms but if you think you are seriously talented, go for it else find a new firm and stick to it and help them to grow.
There are a lot of ways. And there is no simple answer. Everyone has their own experiences and we would never fir in your shows. Trust in what you think your heart wants and go for it.
Fit in your shoes*
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