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Licensure Question

Reconvene_Reconnect_555

Hey everyone, thanks for your time. Hopefully someone is knowledgeable about the liscensure process and can provide some guidance.

Background:

  • Seeking in the state of Maryland
  • 24 years old
  • 4 year B.S. Arch from an accredited university
  • 55% completion of NCARB AXP hours from working for architecture firms
  • Currently working (started 4 months ago) for a real estate developer / design-build firm
  • I design tenant spaces, site improvements, details for renovation of our properties, and work with architects as a design manager for our larger projects - I technically draft drawings that are used for construction, but I am not sure if they are qualified as CD's in a traditional sense
  • I also project manage a majority of our construction projects from large to small - coordinating consultants, contacting material manufacturers for pricing, signing off on invoices and proposals, bidding out to subcontractors, answering RFI's from subs, and generally overseeing outsourced superintendents and supervising quality of construction
  • An architect we frequently employ for overflow design needs is willing to be my NCARB mentor/supervisor

Will the work I do, as its not for an architectural firm, be deemed acceptable for AXP hour requirements? 

Will my proposed mentor, a licensed architect, be able to sign off on my hours if we are not working for the same entity? 

Since I have a 4 year degree - B.S. Arch - will I still be able to complete the 4 year requirement of work equivalency in the state of Maryland - even though its not work equivalency for an architecture firm but rather a developer?

Thank you!

 
Nov 20, 19 5:44 pm
BulgarBlogger

BS in architecture is BS. You just threw your money out the window- and for what? Whatever... you live with the choices you make.

Nov 20, 19 5:58 pm
Reconvene_Reconnect_555

Hope everything is ok with you, grumpy gills. The state of Maryland allows anyone with a 4 year pre professional degree, my Bullshit Arch as you mentioned, to gain licensure through work equivalency. So, once an individual completes AXP requirements, 4 years of professional work can satisfy not having an MArch and the 60,000 dollar price tag that comes with it. I love my job and can live without being licensed, but I DIDNT WANT MY DEGREE TO GO TO WASTE!!! HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!!

BulgarBlogger

You're a waste and an embarrassment to architecture.

BulgarBlogger

No respect

BulgarBlogger

It doesn't matter what the state allows or doesn't allow. The quality of how you think about architecture, as defined by the seriousness (or lack thereof in your case) by your educational program is indicative of how you would approach any design process/problem. You clearly went for a four ywar because you either had no clue what you wanted to do with your life or didn't your higher education applications seriously enough at to forsee that accredited professional programs not only provide better design training, but also allow the privilege of obtaining an NCARB certificate and getting licensed in multiple states. I feel sorry for the individuals/entities/institutions that sponsored your massive waste of time.

Reconvene_Reconnect_555

Is this how you speak to people in the real world? I genuinely feel sorry for you and wonder why you’re so angry at the world. If a simple question can warrant this much anger I’m scared to find out how much an actual injustice affects your being. Godspeed you little ball of fragile anger. I make more money than you.

BulgarBlogger

"I make more money than you". And this is your true motivation. Nkt t

BulgarBlogger

Not to master a craft, but the reap the financial benefits from it. So no- its not the "simple question." I smelled your type a mile away.

Reconvene_Reconnect_555

Stay miserable, my man. You can take your lofty ego and kick rocks. Thanks for all the help!!!

Reconvene_Reconnect_555

You’re the equivalent of an architecture neckbeard lol

Chad Miller

BB, back off. You're being a dick.

BulgarBlogger

Bite me. 4 years are bullshit.

BulgarBlogger

This guy wants the prestige of the title without being really interested in it and wants to just make money off of it. This is my (OUR) profession, and your lack of outrage that some four-year non-professional developer-type wants to rape it by simply getting the title is not respectable.

threeohdoor

A 3 year M.Arch is somehow better? The profession is a sham but comments like yours above do absolutely nothing to improve the situation.

BulgarBlogger

No- I am against a 3-year M.Arch. I believe the only architecture degree that should be allowed is a continuous professional degree.

Chad Miller

BB, sounds like you're upset with developers, not the path to alternative licenceture. Regardless I know quite a few architects who have a 4 year degree. They are all some of the best architects I know and have created great works. It's about the person, not necessarily the degree. Look up David Salmela.

threeohdoor

Wait, what is a "Continuous Professional Degree"? Just HSW hours on blast or biennial board certifications? I haven't heard of that term before and a quick google points me only to CEUs.

BulgarBlogger

I am upset with the "loosy-goosy" nature of education. People don't study things to master them anymore.. they only go for something that they think will make them money.. The goal should always be to master something first and have the money be a byproduct of that mastery.

BulgarBlogger

Read Robert Greene's book "Mastery"

threeohdoor

Interesting take. However, who decides or defines "Mastery"? How does one become a master and what steps should he/she take? Even a master tradesman requires a broader basis of education in order to reach mastery - this basis of education is often "loosy goosy". And what's wrong with wanting to get paid before someone reaches "mastery"? I'll check out the book.

BulgarBlogger

Mastery starts with a passion to want to fully absorb and immerse yourself in everything related to that craft that you wish to master. Starting to study something with a "loosy-goosy" attitude is actually a disgrace in my opinion- and then wanting that attitude to ultimately translate into a license?? I hope you understand that it is the attitude toward the discipline that I have a problem with...

Chad Miller

I'd think that if you didn't take your education and internship seriously you wouldn't be able to pass the ARE. As for education, what do you feel is a decent length and type of an accredited architectural program? Five year BA? Five year MA, Six year MA?

BulgarBlogger

Do it like they do it in Europe: make all decent architecture programs as competitive as Cooper Union and you study 6 years to obtain a Masters.

tduds

Chill out, Bubbles.

Chad Miller

BB, if we went with that type of education then you wouldn't be an architect.

Non Sequitur

BB, we're not that special and we're certainly not that important. The only education that counts is work experience, everything before that is just noise. Mastery and passion are nice to have but they are optional since if one looks at architecture as a profession (ie. a ways to make a salary). If someone can get there without paying heavy tuition costs, then that's even better. We don't need 6y of 80 hour weeks of studio work to be successful; let the real world sort out who can make it and who can't.

Chad Miller

/\ tduds, did you just call BB 'Bubbles'?

BulgarBlogger

Every time I see tduds, I think of tits

chi-arc

I truly feel sorry for you BB, you sound miserable. If you can pursue what you want without taking on more student debt, I suggest you do so. So no OP, you did not waste your money. You are just dealing without someone who career obviously hasn't turned out the way they thought it would.

RickB-Astoria

BB, Most people with a pre-professional degree would have to work more years of experience under an architect in order to get initial licensure. For NCARB Certificate, if they get a pre-professional bachelors degree in architecture from a school with an accredited 2-yr. M.Arch, would have to document 2x the amount of AXP and be licensed for 3 YEARS following initial licensure before they can be NCARB Certified which does help in reciprocity. Keep in mind that a 5 year B.Arch is going to cost around $25K to $30K a year more because of the tuition and ALL cost of living for the additional academic year. There is only about 3 years of architectural education in a 5 year B.Arch. That's why the 3 year M.Arch because it doesn't have the general education stuff required in a undergraduate degree. In a 4 year bachelors degree, there is 1.5 to 2 years worth of architectural education in that degree when you subtract the general education requirement. I have not read enough of this bickering nonsense between you and the OP to really say anything about his direction. Frankly, people don't know from their early little childhood that they are going to be architects. That's a fucking fairytale and anyone that says that should be hit with plagiarism as that is an overly used bullshit. People may not always be ready to know which career direction they will be going immediately out of high school. The OP as far as I can tell is currently working in architecture getting their AXP hours completed. Frankly, a lot of people in any architecture degree programs have piss poor skills in preparing construction documents. There are probably reasons for it in the architectural education system as it is. NAAB doesn't do jack shit in improving the quality that much. The individual schools and instructors/professors makes the real difference aside from the students, those who of course makes the biggest difference. As a student, you really have to go above and beyond what the schools "teaches" to fill out your knowledge and skills.

threeohdoor

So I flipped through the book at lunch. I was surprised to learn the author is the same guy who wrote Art of Seduction. The work is trash and pop-psy designed to force a method of thinking on the unwise and willing. He's embrace of "Great Man History" is a sign of his weak theoretical foundation and his inability to incorporate nuance and subtlety into his arguments. Machiavelli he is not. I'd qualify his work as Ayn Rand adjacent, in that the chief audience seems to be the high school to college white guy who has yet to achieve a more well-rounded perspective on life and society.

As others have mentioned, it's ludicrous to think that someone who has no exposure or educational basis could "choose" to master in a discipline. If that were the case, then everyone would be a firefighter, astronaut, President, etc. "Loosy goosy" education is entirely required, in my opinion, before anyone can make a realistic assessment of their own abilities and desires.

Also, individuals have different goals in life and allocate their own resources accordingly. Architecture is not special. Medicine is not special. Business is not special. Law is not special. They CAN be, but as a baseline, they are not. 

BulgarBlogger

"Loosy Goosy" is the result of absent discipline and lack of focus. Look at all the olympic gymnasts or really talented pianists. Ask them at what age they started their training...

threeohdoor

I'd ask them when their parents started their training. I'd also all the not-quite olympian gymnasts how they are faring now...

BulgarBlogger

That's is such an ad hominem answer. Who cares when their parents started training?

RickB-Astoria

BB, most of those children were forced to learn how to play the piano by their parents. Some of them had a talent and then their government took the child to these special schools. Think about how the Soviet bloc did this. It isn't such a nice rosy story. However, unless the parent is an architect, most children are never going to be interested in becoming an architect right away. If their parent was a contractor... maybe seeing buildings getting built might inspire them but it usually takes someone perhaps an architect, to inspire them to become an architect. They most certainly won't have formal training in any way or form until either high school (with a drafting class) or at college.

RickB-Astoria

Why did the OP choose a BA/BS degree in Architecture versus a B.Arch? Could it be an easier admission requirement? Why lose years fighting to get admitted into a B.Arch program (most requiring a 3.0 GPA or higher or 3.5 or higher High School GPA). If the schools that were local and affordable because of in-state tuition rates, the admissions maybe higher and chances of getting admitted being next to zero or flat out zero. So he chose a school that was easier to get admissions at by simply enrolling. The OP did get the degree, IIRC. Don't you know, if you are dedicated enough, you can learn everything that is taught in architecture school about architect over 5 year period in 1 to 2 years? I know of an architect that did that and have become a successful architect with over 50 years of practice.

It is none of my business or yours as to why the OP chose that. 

BulgarBlogger

Rick- you are exactly right. Not my business. But it is also not my obligation to have respect for others' choices. Reacting to that is my right on a public forum.

tduds

It's not illegal to be an asshole but that doesn't make one any less of an asshole.

RickB-Astoria

Actually, this is a privately owned forum. Yes, it is your right to have your own opinion. Whether you can express that depends on this site's owner and the discretion of the moderators. That is just a point of fact. Some people may even enter into architecture as a second career. Try to be considerate of those possibilities. I agree that you are not obligated to agree with other people's choices but it is forum policy since this forum was created that we conduct ourselves in a respectful manner. Basically.... netiquettes. This is an obligation of the privilege of using this privately owned website and forum. Being a total dick, are kinds of conduct that the admin and moderators have banned people or suspended their access. This does not mean you have to agree with the OP's choices.

tduds

Yeah don't be a dick, Bubbles.

RickB-Astoria

Bubbles.....

BulgarBlogger

Non- "we aren't that special." You must design culturally or societally insignificant spaces that are neither memorable nor permanent. But whether or not the buildings/spaces you do design are significant or not, your entire outlook (or blueprint- pun intended) of how you think about the architectural profession is similar to that of a totally disempowered indidividual, similar to someone who doesn't vote and adopts the mentality- "why vote? I aint gonna determine who is president by myself." So no, its not about ego or feeling like we need to be treated like Gods, but if you really don't think that what you do IS that important, then I feel sorry for you; sorry because you've lost your spark, that something that makes you want to go to work every day beyond the mundane and material. Your passion about the essence of architecture is gone, and that is truly a miserable place to be in.

threeohdoor

"culturally or societally insignificant spaces..." - You do luxury brownstones for rich people, right?

tduds

One can be passionate about architecture and also passionate about shutting down arrogant gatekeeping bullshit.

Non Sequitur

Bubbles, you are grossly incorrect about everything in your statement.

RickB-Astoria

Important but not special because any occupation that there is demand is important. Architecture as a profession is not special but it is important. So is engineering. So is being a doctor... a lawyer... etc. Even a computer programmer. All are important in our world. We are not special because we are important because we alone are not unique in being important. Just making a point.

Non Sequitur

so are janitors and bus drivers too. So if every job is important, are no jobs important then?

RickB-Astoria

Virtually all occupations have importance in some way or another. Architecture is importance in our society and what we do leaves an indelible mark in the lives and experiences of the built environment by people. We are not special but we have our specific way we contribute to the spaces people experience. Maybe that's uniquely the nature of our design profession but we are not alone in making that happen. It's a team process even between us and the builders, the clients, the various stakeholders.

tduds

Passion is not the same as importance. Passion, I'd argue, is a disregard of importance.

Non Sequitur

indelible? Really Ricky?

ArchNyen

best line so far on this comment trend is: you miserable "little ball of fragile anger"

RickB-Astoria

Non Sequitur, absolutely if you care about what you do in the built environment. Design shitty buildings.... it leaves indelible mark on the persons that experiences that building. You are leaving a lasting memory of how shitty that building is. Likewise, you make a great building, it leaves an lasting memory as well. However, that one would be a positive memory. Buildings and therefore the architecture is experienced. How people express may vary. Some more poetic than others. There are people incapable of expressing poetically because they don't know how. Architecture is more than just designing walls, floors, and roofs. It's about designing spaces and experiences. The uneducated may not know how to express it but they will nevertheless having feeling about the space. Most people are obviously too absorbed in their busy body lives to think consciously think and put to words what they feel about a space they are at... unless they are on a vacation where they are not too absorbed to experience their surroundings. Our decisions in design also have long lasting implications.

What we do, do touch the lives of people. The buildings we design, renovate, remodel, etc. do touch the lives of the people whom experience those buildings. That experience can not really be erased from people who experiences the buildings and work we design and make.

Rick, let's play a game. You tell me a profession you think is unimportant, and I'll tell you how that profession can leave an indelible mark on someone. As NS said, we aren't that special, nor that important. We take ourselves way too seriously.

Non Sequitur

.

RickB-Astoria

E_A, now.... tell me what profession, important or unimportant, where your work can still leave an indelible mark on people hundreds of years later or even thousands of years? This list gets considerably smaller. I am not saying architecture is uniquely important. Without 'architects', there would be no buildings. What is an 'architect' can vary from the narrow statutory definitions of licensing laws to the much broader definition of the word and the professional as a whole. We are not special. I am sure about that. We are important and what we do have life cycles that can span multi-century. Some cases, multi-milleniums. Do we take ourselves too seriously? Some of us, most certainly. It isn't particularly rare for buildings to last over 100 years and impact the lives of people long after we are dead.

RickB-Astoria

You missed this, obviously: Virtually all occupations have importance in some way or another.

RickB-Astoria

What I was saying afterwards is not to imply architecture is absolutely unique but that it is important and in no way am I saying it is absolutely unique other than maybe it is unique in the way we express and make that indelible mark on people's lives. Other professions may very well also leave indelible mark on people's lives but how those professions express and make that mark is different then architecture.

BulgarBlogger

Passion is about standards. The ARE is the technical standard the profession has adopted. The professional degree is the educational standard.

RickB-Astoria

The WHOLE licensure process is the "Test" for baseline competency for entry into the independent practice of architecture. It is not a test of whether you "master" architecture.

.

RickB-Astoria

There's no "mastering" architecture unless you are immortal.

BulgarBlogger

Lol- Mies said

BulgarBlogger

"Architecture is the will of the epoch"; so you can master that...

RickB-Astoria

Well, you can not master all the knowledge and skills of everything architecture. You can gain incredible proficiency in certain knowledge and skills and therefore you can do so with the will of the times but architecture is more than any one architect's philosophy or even all of them combined. We can only do our best.

tduds

This sounds like a question for NCARB / Maryland Board of Architects.

Nov 20, 19 6:39 pm
Reconvene_Reconnect_555

I agree, and NCARB directs me to MBoA whenever I call. When I call MBoA they put me on hold then hang up on me. Thanks for the comment though.

atelier nobody

Does MBoA not have a web site?

Reconvene_Reconnect_555

It does, and I’ve scoured the information. I wish it was more comprehensive and accessible. Maybe I’ll try and schedule a sit down with a leader there. Just figured I would ask here to see if anyone was in a similar situation.

RickB-Astoria

What do you want to know, precisely?

RickB-Astoria

From what I am guessing, the way they are looking at it is: If you have only a high school diploma, you will need 10 years of experience under an architect in ADDITION to AXP. With different degrees or educational scope, there is varying amount of said experience. In your case, you have a BA/BS in Architecture. Therefore, Maryland requires you to work for an architect for 4 YEARS in addition to AXP. As far as it matters, you probably could complete AXP before or after completing the "4 YEAR EXPERIENCE UNDER AN ARCHITECT" requirement. AXP is basically 2 years of full-time employment. You will basically need 6 FULL-TIME YEARS OF EXPERIENCE. 5 of them under the supervision of an architect. 1 of them being AXP and 4 ADDITIONAL years of experience under an architect. The remaining year of AXP can be under experience setting acceptable by NCARB. 4 year degree + 4 years of non-AXP architectural experience under a licensed architect (documented on the ERC forms) + ~2 Years for AXP. Fulltime employment is basically calculated as 2080 HOURS a YEAR for the experience documented under ERC. You might want to clearly document 6 YEARS of experience under a licensed architect where you can effectively document 2080 x 6 which should equal 12,480 hours. 3740 of them being documented under AXP. Once you do all that, then you can take the ARE per Maryland's laws.

RickB-Astoria

At least that's the theory. I'm only a building designer in Oregon. I'm not licensed in Maryland. If this seems too long of a path, there maybe other states where you can do initial licensure in and then get reciprocity after receiving NCARB Certification.

placebeyondthesplines

only a building designer*

*not licensed anywhere, not educated in architecture, not qualified to comment

5839

The OP isn't asking about the number of extra years needed to get licensed. He or she is asking specifically about whether the experience working on architecture-related work for a developer will count toward those extra years, since it's not in the office of an architect, but would be supervised by one who is not employed by that company. The answer to that is not in the state's web page. The footnote says, "80% of the required work experience may be completed as an employee of an organization other than the office of a licensed Architect if the work experience is directly related to architectural work and is completed under the direct supervision of a licensed Architect." That's just not specific enough to know whether the state considers this OP's work to be directly related enough, or if they consider an architect who doesn't work on the premises to be able to do "direct supervision" (some states do, and some don't.) The OP needs to get a ruling from the state board, about this specific personal situation. Nobody on this site is going to be able to say what the state will or won't approve in this case.

RickB-Astoria

5839, maybe I got lost in the skim through all the bullshit bantering above. So I lost track of what he was asking. I agree with you that he will need the board's ruling. None of us can answer that.

Chad Miller

BB, your trolling would be a lot better if it wasn't so transparent.  

BulgarBlogger

Huh?

RickB-Astoria

The BubblyBlogging troll(s) is as transparent as their bubbles.

Chad Miller

I'd hope you're a troll BB, if not your views on eugenics, the poor, education, and the profession of architecture make you just a horrible, miserable person.

Volunteer

http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/web...

Sounds like the MBoA needs to review your qualifications to date and tell you what else you need. That's their job. I would physically go to their office and make an appointment at a later time if they can't spare a few minutes then. Virtually all Maryland state government offices have an atrocious reputation for citizen service. Just be sure you are polite and keep your cool. 

Nov 20, 19 8:26 pm
Reconvene_Reconnect_555

That’s what I’m starting to think as well. Thank you so much for the advice, I really appreciate it.

Zbig

MD BoA used to have a fantastically responsive employee until three or four years ago. I heard that he retired.


Nov 21, 19 11:29 am
Menona

Isn't it in the best financial interests of the member architects of the MBoA, for there to be as few Registered Architects as possible?  If they can put up a roadblock or two that will discourage others from getting registered, won't that ensure they have less competition?

Is this too cynical?  Still waiting myself on a response from another state's BoA. 

Nov 21, 19 1:55 pm
Non Sequitur

I am in favor of less roadblocks. More competition is good.

RickB-Astoria

Licensure programs are not suppose to be used and abused for purposes such as to "limit number of competitors". That would potentially raise legal issues. Hmmm.... antitrust/monopoly/oligopoly..... rings any bell? 

threeohdoor

NS, I'm of two minds. I think all the reporting/hours/etc hoops that candidates need to jump through are bogus. I don't think they do a decent job of proving competency to the state or to clients. I think taking a page out of the legal industry might be interest...Just graduated? Great, now take the (State) Bar and you're good to go. Make the test actually difficult as opposed to the current AREs, where you get a pass if you answer 70% of questions correctly.

So basically, replace the many hurdles with just one high hurdle.

Non Sequitur

^Interesting... but I am of the opposite opinion since I sincerely doubt that the average accredited program pumps out grads that can actually practice.

So for this to work, this bar test (national for me because... well, we're different up here), we would need more rigorous schooling and exams that are have a big chunk dedicated to CM, PA stuff. But I guess if someone took their schooling seriously and perhaps worked in an office part-time, they may be able to write the exams following their graduation. Most may not and will need to work until they feel competent enough. No minimum hours bullshit, just take the test(s) when you feel ready and see what happens. I'd like to see that.

Just give me a few pints of Guinness and I'll likely balkanize this even further. 

tduds

"I sincerely doubt that the average accredited program pumps out grads that can actually practice." Agreed. & I include myself in this statement. 

Architecture is inherently an apprentice / vocational learning process. Design programs don't teach the realities you need to know to be a competent PA (I'd argue they also shouldn't.. but that's a different thread). You really can only learn by doing, so some sort of proof-of-apprenticeship is still necessary for licensure.

 I agree the current AXP/ARE model could use improvement, but I don't think eliminating the experience portion is a step in the right direction.

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