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Licensure Question

Reconvene_Reconnect_555

Hey everyone, thanks for your time. Hopefully someone is knowledgeable about the liscensure process and can provide some guidance.

Background:

  • Seeking in the state of Maryland
  • 24 years old
  • 4 year B.S. Arch from an accredited university
  • 55% completion of NCARB AXP hours from working for architecture firms
  • Currently working (started 4 months ago) for a real estate developer / design-build firm
  • I design tenant spaces, site improvements, details for renovation of our properties, and work with architects as a design manager for our larger projects - I technically draft drawings that are used for construction, but I am not sure if they are qualified as CD's in a traditional sense
  • I also project manage a majority of our construction projects from large to small - coordinating consultants, contacting material manufacturers for pricing, signing off on invoices and proposals, bidding out to subcontractors, answering RFI's from subs, and generally overseeing outsourced superintendents and supervising quality of construction
  • An architect we frequently employ for overflow design needs is willing to be my NCARB mentor/supervisor

Will the work I do, as its not for an architectural firm, be deemed acceptable for AXP hour requirements? 

Will my proposed mentor, a licensed architect, be able to sign off on my hours if we are not working for the same entity? 

Since I have a 4 year degree - B.S. Arch - will I still be able to complete the 4 year requirement of work equivalency in the state of Maryland - even though its not work equivalency for an architecture firm but rather a developer?

Thank you!

 
Nov 20, 19 5:44 pm
BulgarBlogger

BS in architecture is BS. You just threw your money out the window- and for what? Whatever... you live with the choices you make.

Nov 20, 19 5:58 pm  · 
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Reconvene_Reconnect_555

Hope everything is ok with you, grumpy gills. The state of Maryland allows anyone with a 4 year pre professional degree, my Bullshit Arch as you mentioned, to gain licensure through work equivalency. So, once an individual completes AXP requirements, 4 years of professional work can satisfy not having an MArch and the 60,000 dollar price tag that comes with it. I love my job and can live without being licensed, but I DIDNT WANT MY DEGREE TO GO TO WASTE!!! HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!!

Nov 20, 19 6:36 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

You're a waste and an embarrassment to architecture.

Nov 20, 19 7:46 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

No respect

Nov 20, 19 7:46 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

It doesn't matter what the state allows or doesn't allow. The quality of how you think about architecture, as defined by the seriousness (or lack thereof in your case) by your educational program is indicative of how you would approach any design process/problem. You clearly went for a four ywar because you either had no clue what you wanted to do with your life or didn't your higher education applications seriously enough at to forsee that accredited professional programs not only provide better design training, but also allow the privilege of obtaining an NCARB certificate and getting licensed in multiple states. I feel sorry for the individuals/entities/institutions that sponsored your massive waste of time.

Nov 20, 19 7:52 pm  · 
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Reconvene_Reconnect_555

Is this how you speak to people in the real world? I genuinely feel sorry for you and wonder why you’re so angry at the world. If a simple question can warrant this much anger I’m scared to find out how much an actual injustice affects your being. Godspeed you little ball of fragile anger. I make more money than you.

Nov 20, 19 8:01 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

"I make more money than you". And this is your true motivation. Nkt t

Nov 20, 19 9:44 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

Not to master a craft, but the reap the financial benefits from it. So no- its not the "simple question." I smelled your type a mile away.

Nov 20, 19 9:45 pm  · 
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Reconvene_Reconnect_555

Stay miserable, my man. You can take your lofty ego and kick rocks. Thanks for all the help!!!

Nov 20, 19 10:19 pm  · 
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Reconvene_Reconnect_555

You’re the equivalent of an architecture neckbeard lol

Nov 20, 19 10:20 pm  · 
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Chad Miller

BB, back off. You're being a dick.

Nov 21, 19 9:42 am  · 
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BulgarBlogger

Bite me. 4 years are bullshit.

Nov 21, 19 10:02 am  · 
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BulgarBlogger

This guy wants the prestige of the title without being really interested in it and wants to just make money off of it. This is my (OUR) profession, and your lack of outrage that some four-year non-professional developer-type wants to rape it by simply getting the title is not respectable.

Nov 21, 19 10:08 am  · 
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threeohdoor

A 3 year M.Arch is somehow better? The profession is a sham but comments like yours above do absolutely nothing to improve the situation.

Nov 21, 19 10:25 am  · 
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BulgarBlogger

No- I am against a 3-year M.Arch. I believe the only architecture degree that should be allowed is a continuous professional degree.

Nov 21, 19 10:27 am  · 
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Chad Miller

BB, sounds like you're upset with developers, not the path to alternative licenceture. Regardless I know quite a few architects who have a 4 year degree. They are all some of the best architects I know and have created great works. It's about the person, not necessarily the degree. Look up David Salmela.

Nov 21, 19 10:56 am  · 
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threeohdoor

Wait, what is a "Continuous Professional Degree"? Just HSW hours on blast or biennial board certifications? I haven't heard of that term before and a quick google points me only to CEUs.

Nov 21, 19 11:16 am  · 
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BulgarBlogger

I am upset with the "loosy-goosy" nature of education. People don't study things to master them anymore.. they only go for something that they think will make them money.. The goal should always be to master something first and have the money be a byproduct of that mastery.

Nov 21, 19 11:17 am  · 
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BulgarBlogger

Read Robert Greene's book "Mastery"

Nov 21, 19 11:17 am  · 
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threeohdoor

Interesting take. However, who decides or defines "Mastery"? How does one become a master and what steps should he/she take? Even a master tradesman requires a broader basis of education in order to reach mastery - this basis of education is often "loosy goosy". And what's wrong with wanting to get paid before someone reaches "mastery"? I'll check out the book.

Nov 21, 19 11:33 am  · 
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BulgarBlogger

Mastery starts with a passion to want to fully absorb and immerse yourself in everything related to that craft that you wish to master. Starting to study something with a "loosy-goosy" attitude is actually a disgrace in my opinion- and then wanting that attitude to ultimately translate into a license?? I hope you understand that it is the attitude toward the discipline that I have a problem with...

Nov 21, 19 12:16 pm  · 
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Chad Miller

I'd think that if you didn't take your education and internship seriously you wouldn't be able to pass the ARE. As for education, what do you feel is a decent length and type of an accredited architectural program? Five year BA? Five year MA, Six year MA?

Nov 21, 19 12:39 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

Do it like they do it in Europe: make all decent architecture programs as competitive as Cooper Union and you study 6 years to obtain a Masters.

Nov 21, 19 12:47 pm  · 
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tduds

Chill out, Bubbles.

Nov 21, 19 1:08 pm  · 
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Chad Miller

BB, if we went with that type of education then you wouldn't be an architect.

Nov 21, 19 1:29 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

BB, we're not that special and we're certainly not that important. The only education that counts is work experience, everything before that is just noise. Mastery and passion are nice to have but they are optional since if one looks at architecture as a profession (ie. a ways to make a salary). If someone can get there without paying heavy tuition costs, then that's even better. We don't need 6y of 80 hour weeks of studio work to be successful; let the real world sort out who can make it and who can't.

Nov 21, 19 1:40 pm  · 
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Chad Miller

/\ tduds, did you just call BB 'Bubbles'?

Nov 21, 19 2:20 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

Every time I see tduds, I think of tits

Nov 21, 19 2:27 pm  · 
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chi-arc

I truly feel sorry for you BB, you sound miserable. If you can pursue what you want without taking on more student debt, I suggest you do so. So no OP, you did not waste your money. You are just dealing without someone who career obviously hasn't turned out the way they thought it would.

Nov 21, 19 2:37 pm  · 
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threeohdoor

So I flipped through the book at lunch. I was surprised to learn the author is the same guy who wrote Art of Seduction. The work is trash and pop-psy designed to force a method of thinking on the unwise and willing. He's embrace of "Great Man History" is a sign of his weak theoretical foundation and his inability to incorporate nuance and subtlety into his arguments. Machiavelli he is not. I'd qualify his work as Ayn Rand adjacent, in that the chief audience seems to be the high school to college white guy who has yet to achieve a more well-rounded perspective on life and society.

As others have mentioned, it's ludicrous to think that someone who has no exposure or educational basis could "choose" to master in a discipline. If that were the case, then everyone would be a firefighter, astronaut, President, etc. "Loosy goosy" education is entirely required, in my opinion, before anyone can make a realistic assessment of their own abilities and desires.

Also, individuals have different goals in life and allocate their own resources accordingly. Architecture is not special. Medicine is not special. Business is not special. Law is not special. They CAN be, but as a baseline, they are not. 

Nov 21, 19 4:00 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

"Loosy Goosy" is the result of absent discipline and lack of focus. Look at all the olympic gymnasts or really talented pianists. Ask them at what age they started their training...

Nov 21, 19 4:26 pm  · 
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threeohdoor

I'd ask them when their parents started their training. I'd also all the not-quite olympian gymnasts how they are faring now...

Nov 21, 19 4:42 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

That's is such an ad hominem answer. Who cares when their parents started training?

Nov 21, 19 4:49 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

Rick- you are exactly right. Not my business. But it is also not my obligation to have respect for others' choices. Reacting to that is my right on a public forum.

Nov 21, 19 5:07 pm  · 
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tduds

It's not illegal to be an asshole but that doesn't make one any less of an asshole.

Nov 21, 19 5:33 pm  · 
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tduds

Yeah don't be a dick, Bubbles.

Nov 21, 19 7:31 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

Non- "we aren't that special." You must design culturally or societally insignificant spaces that are neither memorable nor permanent. But whether or not the buildings/spaces you do design are significant or not, your entire outlook (or blueprint- pun intended) of how you think about the architectural profession is similar to that of a totally disempowered indidividual, similar to someone who doesn't vote and adopts the mentality- "why vote? I aint gonna determine who is president by myself." So no, its not about ego or feeling like we need to be treated like Gods, but if you really don't think that what you do IS that important, then I feel sorry for you; sorry because you've lost your spark, that something that makes you want to go to work every day beyond the mundane and material. Your passion about the essence of architecture is gone, and that is truly a miserable place to be in.

Nov 22, 19 9:39 am  · 
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threeohdoor

"culturally or societally insignificant spaces..." - You do luxury brownstones for rich people, right?

Nov 22, 19 11:10 am  · 
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tduds

One can be passionate about architecture and also passionate about shutting down arrogant gatekeeping bullshit.

Nov 22, 19 12:00 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

Bubbles, you are grossly incorrect about everything in your statement.

Nov 22, 19 12:13 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

so are janitors and bus drivers too. So if every job is important, are no jobs important then?

Nov 22, 19 1:26 pm  · 
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tduds

Passion is not the same as importance. Passion, I'd argue, is a disregard of importance.

Nov 22, 19 2:25 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

indelible? Really Ricky?

Nov 22, 19 2:43 pm  · 
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ArchNyen

best line so far on this comment trend is: you miserable "little ball of fragile anger"

Nov 22, 19 4:44 pm  · 
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Rick, let's play a game. You tell me a profession you think is unimportant, and I'll tell you how that profession can leave an indelible mark on someone. As NS said, we aren't that special, nor that important. We take ourselves way too seriously.

Nov 22, 19 6:59 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

.

Nov 22, 19 7:13 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

Passion is about standards. The ARE is the technical standard the profession has adopted. The professional degree is the educational standard.

Nov 22, 19 9:28 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

Lol- Mies said

Nov 22, 19 9:52 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

"Architecture is the will of the epoch"; so you can master that...

Nov 22, 19 9:52 pm  · 
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tduds

This sounds like a question for NCARB / Maryland Board of Architects.

Nov 20, 19 6:39 pm  · 
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Reconvene_Reconnect_555

I agree, and NCARB directs me to MBoA whenever I call. When I call MBoA they put me on hold then hang up on me. Thanks for the comment though.

Nov 20, 19 6:42 pm  · 
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atelier nobody

Does MBoA not have a web site?

Nov 20, 19 7:51 pm  · 
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Reconvene_Reconnect_555

It does, and I’ve scoured the information. I wish it was more comprehensive and accessible. Maybe I’ll try and schedule a sit down with a leader there. Just figured I would ask here to see if anyone was in a similar situation.

Nov 20, 19 8:04 pm  · 
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placebeyondthesplines

only a building designer*

*not licensed anywhere, not educated in architecture, not qualified to comment

Nov 21, 19 3:54 pm  · 
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Flatfish

The OP isn't asking about the number of extra years needed to get licensed. He or she is asking specifically about whether the experience working on architecture-related work for a developer will count toward those extra years, since it's not in the office of an architect, but would be supervised by one who is not employed by that company. The answer to that is not in the state's web page. The footnote says, "80% of the required work experience may be completed as an employee of an organization other than the office of a licensed Architect if the work experience is directly related to architectural work and is completed under the direct supervision of a licensed Architect." That's just not specific enough to know whether the state considers this OP's work to be directly related enough, or if they consider an architect who doesn't work on the premises to be able to do "direct supervision" (some states do, and some don't.) The OP needs to get a ruling from the state board, about this specific personal situation. Nobody on this site is going to be able to say what the state will or won't approve in this case.

Nov 21, 19 4:04 pm  · 
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Chad Miller

BB, your trolling would be a lot better if it wasn't so transparent.  

Nov 24, 19 1:29 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

Huh?

Nov 24, 19 3:56 pm  · 
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Chad Miller

I'd hope you're a troll BB, if not your views on eugenics, the poor, education, and the profession of architecture make you just a horrible, miserable person.

Nov 25, 19 10:23 am  · 
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Volunteer

http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/web...

Sounds like the MBoA needs to review your qualifications to date and tell you what else you need. That's their job. I would physically go to their office and make an appointment at a later time if they can't spare a few minutes then. Virtually all Maryland state government offices have an atrocious reputation for citizen service. Just be sure you are polite and keep your cool. 

Nov 20, 19 8:26 pm  · 
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Reconvene_Reconnect_555

That’s what I’m starting to think as well. Thank you so much for the advice, I really appreciate it.

Nov 20, 19 8:29 pm  · 
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Zbig

MD BoA used to have a fantastically responsive employee until three or four years ago. I heard that he retired.


Nov 21, 19 11:29 am  · 
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Menona

Isn't it in the best financial interests of the member architects of the MBoA, for there to be as few Registered Architects as possible?  If they can put up a roadblock or two that will discourage others from getting registered, won't that ensure they have less competition?

Is this too cynical?  Still waiting myself on a response from another state's BoA. 

Nov 21, 19 1:55 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

I am in favor of less roadblocks. More competition is good.

Nov 21, 19 2:00 pm  · 
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threeohdoor

NS, I'm of two minds. I think all the reporting/hours/etc hoops that candidates need to jump through are bogus. I don't think they do a decent job of proving competency to the state or to clients. I think taking a page out of the legal industry might be interest...Just graduated? Great, now take the (State) Bar and you're good to go. Make the test actually difficult as opposed to the current AREs, where you get a pass if you answer 70% of questions correctly.

So basically, replace the many hurdles with just one high hurdle.

Nov 22, 19 11:07 am  · 
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Non Sequitur

^Interesting... but I am of the opposite opinion since I sincerely doubt that the average accredited program pumps out grads that can actually practice.

So for this to work, this bar test (national for me because... well, we're different up here), we would need more rigorous schooling and exams that are have a big chunk dedicated to CM, PA stuff. But I guess if someone took their schooling seriously and perhaps worked in an office part-time, they may be able to write the exams following their graduation. Most may not and will need to work until they feel competent enough. No minimum hours bullshit, just take the test(s) when you feel ready and see what happens. I'd like to see that.

Just give me a few pints of Guinness and I'll likely balkanize this even further. 

Nov 22, 19 11:57 am  · 
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tduds

"I sincerely doubt that the average accredited program pumps out grads that can actually practice." Agreed. & I include myself in this statement. 

Architecture is inherently an apprentice / vocational learning process. Design programs don't teach the realities you need to know to be a competent PA (I'd argue they also shouldn't.. but that's a different thread). You really can only learn by doing, so some sort of proof-of-apprenticeship is still necessary for licensure.

 I agree the current AXP/ARE model could use improvement, but I don't think eliminating the experience portion is a step in the right direction.

Nov 22, 19 12:26 pm  · 
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