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Former US Ambassador to Russia Jack Matlock:

Ukraine Crisis Should Have Been Avoided


Feb 17, 22 11:47 am  · 
 · 
square.

this is becoming a bit obsessive.. probably time for a new thread for people who read treaties in their spare time.

Feb 17, 22 12:10 pm  · 
2  · 

I agree, the the daily media blasting of an "imminent Russian invasion" is obsessive. But if you don't like talking politics maybe you should avoid the politics central thread.

Feb 17, 22 12:38 pm  · 
2  · 
square.

imo this has moved beyond general political banter that makes sense in the context of an architecture and design website - constructing the conversation is as important as content dumping.

Feb 17, 22 12:46 pm  · 
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tduds

I wouldn't call any of this "politics"

Feb 17, 22 12:46 pm  · 
3  · 
SneakyPete

Big difference between talking politics and trying to have a drink of water when the only tap available seems to be an uninvited fire hose.

Feb 17, 22 12:47 pm  · 
2  · 
Non Sequitur

But Pete, there is fluoride in that tap water.

Feb 18, 22 11:41 am  · 
2  · 
randomised

The threats by Biden&co are getting so severe that they are calling for a complete mobilisation in the Luhansk and Donbass, Biden wants his war one way or the other…if only the US recognised the International Criminal Court in The Hague :-(

Feb 19, 22 6:10 am  · 
 · 
,,,,

I can't fathom all the mistrust toward VP.


His legendary humanitarian humanitarianism is legendary.


I ask you in all seriousness can you name a more benevolent, trustworthy, kind, generous world leader?


He has made it his life's work to eliminate world hunger and poverty.


For crying out loud he makes cat videos and puts them on YouTube.







Feb 19, 22 8:52 am  · 
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randomised

VP as in former Vice-President Biden?

Feb 19, 22 10:37 am  · 
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proto

The threats by Biden&co are getting so severe“ 

Citation please (you claim multiple, so pick a couple specific threats)

Feb 19, 22 11:23 am  · 
 · 
,,,,

Apparently my razor wit doesn't work on a dull mind. Noted for future reference.

Feb 19, 22 1:19 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

Proto, just read the tweets by Biden or any major news outlet that posts news where the only source is US or NATO “intelligence”…come on, not going to do your homework:

American escalation: “The US defence secretary Lloyd Austin on Saturday appeared to compare Russia’s military to a snake that was uncoiling and preparing to strike Ukraine, after a massive military buildup that has stoked the biggest east-west crisis since the cold war.”

European de escalation attempt: “ Annalena Baerbock, the German foreign minister, warned that it remained unclear whether Vladimir Putin had yet made a decision about Ukraine, tamping down Washington’s urgent warnings of an imminent invasion.”

Honestly can’t understand you all don’t (want?) to see this…midterms coming up I guess, fending off republicans is more important than preventing the loss of innocent lives.



Feb 19, 22 1:52 pm  · 
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randomised

z if you call that razor wit I hope you have a beard or a barber(!)

Feb 19, 22 1:54 pm  · 
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proto

So, no severe threats cited, thanks for confirming…

[btw, you make the accusation, it’s up to you to support it, not the reader to go “do homework”…]

Feb 19, 22 3:17 pm  · 
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proto

You said, ““The threats by Biden&co are getting so severe“. I haven’t seen any threats made by Biden&co, much less severe ones. So, please enlighten me as to WTF you are referring to…

Feb 19, 22 3:25 pm  · 
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proto

To wit…the Austin quote you picked IDENTIFIES a threat; it does NOT MAKE a threat.

Feb 19, 22 3:28 pm  · 
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randomised

Your americentrism is blocking the view from the rest of the world…Biden c.s. are hammering on an invasion for weeks now, even the Ukrainians are sick and tired of hearing it as it doesn’t help them in the slightest. If you don’t understand the psychology of that, well try reading some international news, start with The Guardian or Al Jazeera, German papers except Bild are also a good place to start.

Feb 19, 22 4:16 pm  · 
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proto

So, again…your statement “the threats Biden&co are making” is just false. They are not making threats. That has zero to do with my perspective. It isn’t an opinion.

Further, your presumption that I can’t/won’t/don’t read an international paper is also false.

Feb 19, 22 5:35 pm  · 
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randomised

That statement isn’t false, they are making threats constantly, non-stop, that you don’t identify those as threats is because it simply doesn’t touch you…

Feb 20, 22 11:22 am  · 
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proto

No, you are hyperbolizing facts to suit your politics. Words have meaning. There are other ways to say that the US publicly confronting Russian military posturing is raising the risk level of confrontation without making shit up about issuing threats. I’m calling out your use of language because it’s hyperbolic and intentionally deceptive. People claim to want to have “conversations” but they don’t work when the basis of discussion is based on fantasy projections.

Feb 20, 22 1:36 pm  · 
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proto

My apologies to other readers…I’m done with this particular line of commentary.

Feb 20, 22 1:57 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

I’m only calling out the one(s) using the hyperbolic language…it is fear mongering from safely far away USA, by a MIC administration that can’t wait to escalate a precarious situation instead of deescalates it. I’m done with this particular line of [politics].

Feb 20, 22 2:35 pm  · 
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tduds

Pointing something out is worse than doing it.

Feb 21, 22 2:12 pm  · 
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randomised

if only it was just innocently pointing fingers...the US and NATO are building up their military forces on the Eastern edge of Europe for years now.

Feb 21, 22 4:19 pm  · 
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tduds

multiple things can simultaneously be bad.

Feb 21, 22 5:20 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

Another one for the category fake news / false flag? <- question mark. Source: Bezos Post…Since the US is suddenly so forthcoming sharing their “intelligence”, even writing to the UN human rights chief (an institute they usually ignore), they should share this obviously… https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/21/us-claims-russia-creating-lists-of-ukrainians-to-be-killed-or-sent-to-camps-report

Feb 21, 22 2:11 am  · 
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tduds
square.

sure has gotten quiet over here lately... (also this link goes to a photo of a restoration?)

Feb 23, 22 8:57 am  · 
3  · 
proto

they're working on how to blame Biden/US for the current status...i'm sure talking points will be handed out soon

Feb 23, 22 11:46 am  · 
1  · 
tduds

oh that is very weird. Sorry about the wrong link.

Try this https://www.nytimes.com/live/2...


Feb 23, 22 12:31 pm  · 
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randomised

It’s quiet because there’s no discussion possible here unfortunately. But the move by Russia was to be expected. Ukraine is/was a failed state for a very long time, long before the USSR fell apart. Back in the 90s when Ukraine was about to give up its nuclear weapons the US also called it a Yugoslavia (remember that war) waiting to happen, but with nuclear weapons…

Now that Donbass and Luhansk with majority of ethnic Russians (and many Russian citizens) have officially been recognised by the Duma, with the conflict in Donbass and Luhansk increasing as both Ukrainians and the resistance wanted to make quick advances before any negotiations, it is wise someone stepped in and forced a stalemate. The Ukrainians will not confront the Russian army directly and the Russians will not likely go into western Ukraine, that’s not where the Russian people are and they will meet strong and permanent resistance. As the Ukrainians didn’t want to federalise their country and give the eastern ethnic Russian side more autonomy, like states have in the US, they took matters into their own hands back in ‘14…

Anyone remember the Nuland tapes where US government officials are basically deciding who should run Ukraine, which nationalist (anti-Russian) puppet to install after a democratically chosen president would be kicked out of office? Biden was in on it back then as VP…it is so disgusting coming from “the leaders of the “free” world”.

This is simply Russia stepping in to end US imperialist expansion by making it impossible for countries to join NATO as they don’t control all their borders. It worked with Moldova, Georgia and now it will work with Ukraine too. If the US and NATO don’t respect their agreements with Russia and if Ukraine is unwilling to respect the Minsk agreements, this is the result…unfortunately, so yes it is exactly because of Biden/US/NATO!

Feb 23, 22 3:51 pm  · 
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SneakyPete

Please post supporting links from RT.com. You'll find them in your browser history, no need to type it in.

Feb 23, 22 4:07 pm  · 
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SneakyPete

This Russian Imperialism is just Russia attempting to preempt US / NATO Imperialism in order to avoid US / NATO Imperialism. Do not think about this, I am VERY SMART (!).

Feb 23, 22 4:09 pm  · 
1  ·  1
randomised

My gosh you don't know about the negotiations that led to the Minsk agreement? How under Bush sr. Ukraine was called to be a potential Yugoslavia (disintegrating civil war and genocide etc, remember?) but...with nuclear weapons? Or the NATO statement that their operation should not be to the detriment of the security of other states? While US/NATO have surrounded Russia and placed (nuclear) missiles there pointing at...Russia? When Khrushchev wanted to help Cuba against their aggressive neighbour to the north US almost started a nuclear war. Or the US-backed coup in 2014 that removed Ukraine's president (sounds all too familiair doesn't it, you probably call it foreign policy). Or the Nuland-Pyatt controversy? Or that it is because of NATO's ambitions with Ukraine that Russia took control of Crimea to protect their navy fleet in the Black Sea. Your lack of common knowledge on Ukraine i.a. is nothing short of embarrassing.

Feb 23, 22 5:34 pm  · 
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It's embarrassing that you both keep posting at each other.

Feb 23, 22 5:50 pm  · 
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SneakyPete

rando, you know nothing about what I do or do not know.

Feb 23, 22 6:10 pm  · 
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randomised

I know enough to know you don’t…

Feb 23, 22 6:18 pm  · 
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SneakyPete

i know you are but what am i.

Feb 23, 22 6:29 pm  · 
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SneakyPete

And on that note, I am putting the little dutch boy in time out.

Feb 23, 22 6:29 pm  · 
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randomised

Thanks, SP…as the shit is now hitting the fan all over Ukraine and Putin is “trying to demilitarise their neighbour” I’m putting myself in time out as well…hope

Feb 24, 22 3:28 am  · 
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At my last home the neighbors on one side were a Ukrainian couple, and the neighbors on the other side of us was an American who married a Russian woman. Separately they were all very nice, but I never saw them talk to each other once. Not even a wave or nod of the head to acknowledge one another. There was probably some history that we missed before we moved in (we weren't there in 2014, but I'm assuming that might have had something to do with it). I can only imagine the tension I'd be able to pick up on if we (and they) were all still living there.

The Russian woman had some mental challenges that apparently were the result of treatments she had for a brain cancer of some type. I never really got the details, but she would often bring up how much she struggled mentally because of the cancer. The Ukrainian couple were computer programmers. 

My wife and I privately joked that the Russian was a former spy who had "an accident" involving head trauma from some type of failed op, and the Ukrainians were spies tasked with keeping an eye on her to make sure their government knew if she was ever "activated" again.

Anyway, the Ukrainians sold their house and moved to Portugal (i.e. they bugged our home and overheard us discussing their secret spying and their cover was blown, so they had to be reassigned), and then around a year later we sold our house and moved too (not to Portugal unfortunately).

Feb 23, 22 2:24 pm  · 
3  · 
square.

guess there was a short rain check..

Feb 24, 22 9:20 am  · 
2  · 
tduds

From something I wrote in 2018, that feels oddly prescient today:

The post-WW2 global order was (for better or worse) almost entirely based on the premise that the US / UK will give a shit. In return, the US / UK benefitted immensely from the status quo.

The people currently in charge are the first generation to have no memory of the world before this order was imposed, and they massively underestimated the natural instability of it's existence. We began to see the maintenance cost of this system not as an investment from which we massively benefited, but as a tax imposed, for which we are not thanked enough.

It only took a small disinformation campaign by powers who stand to benefit from the disintegration of the system to convince the US and UK to shrug off their duties and turn inward.

I'm not saying the US/UK imposed order was necessarily good, or that the goal should be to return to it. I'm simply saying that this is a systemic failure - one baked in from the start - and *something* needs to exist in its place, because a vacuum quickly descends into despotism and war.

What we're witnessing now are the first pieces of a crumbling infrastructure that we wrongly assumed was the default state. It's what the world becomes when the people charged with giving a shit forgot they needed to.


Feb 24, 22 11:27 am  · 
5  · 
sameolddoctor

True, but the "infrastructure" is not crumbling. It is merely being reshaped by Russia, with China's full support. It may seem more like dick-wagging, but it is actually nothing short of China and Russia writing the new world order by showing the west what they can do, while erstwhile superpowers like the US and EU look on.

Feb 24, 22 5:11 pm  · 
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tduds

The infrastructure of liberal democracy is crumbling and a competing infrastructure of autocracy/authoritarianism is swooping in to fill its place.

Feb 25, 22 11:38 am  · 
2  · 
∑ π ∓ √ ∞

Wonder Woman

Wonder Woman
Feb 24, 22 4:36 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

pretty incredible to look back at some of the (terrible) takes about the current russia-ukraine situation - it's why i originally suggested people stay in their lanes.. claiming to have some personal knowledge/insight based on a curated selection of "true" media about how major global powers are acting is absurd.

instead, i've taken the opportunity to try to educate myself a bit about the history and context leading up to this moment (i'll admit i've been pretty ignorant about a lot of it), which i believe is the most we can do, especially as designers on this side of the world. it's one thing to comment and question, and another to attempt to predict or claim.

Feb 25, 22 12:31 pm  · 
4  · 
SneakyPete

but if i do that i wont get any internet points

Feb 25, 22 1:29 pm  · 
3  · 
randomised

I’m in shock how the west has poked the bear and did nothing at all to back up their bluff, they instead called putin’s bluff and he is going all in. I’m in shock as this is happening right next door to my family, a war zone at their border just 300 miles away, on the doorstep of Europe. I’m in shock as I don’t see Europe, the US or NATO with any plan to stop this besides some sanctions here or there, where China will easily step in and buy Russia’s natural resources that power the European economy. They’ve been sanctionproofing their economy for years already. Sanctions that don’t mean anything to the Ukrainians. They’ve been fooled, thought they could join the EU or NATO just like that, they’ve been tricked by a coup/regime change instigated and backed by the west who then took their hands off and ran away, leaving the Ukrainians dangling to deal with the fallout that put everything at risk. I’m in shock when I see the chaos, the death and destruction of a country I have such fond memories of, a proud people that welcomed me so generously after their Orange Revolution. I’m in shock as I see the beautiful and familiar places I’ve visited getting destroyed and now don’t see where and how this will end as even radiation levels are rising coming from the exclusion zone around Chernobyl…I’m simply in shock

Feb 25, 22 4:34 pm  · 
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square.

is this meant to be a response to my post? your narcissism (i, i, i..) is unparalleled

Feb 25, 22 5:11 pm  · 
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∑ π ∓ √ ∞

Random, I thought you wanted to get rid of nato?

Feb 25, 22 5:17 pm  · 
 · 
,,,,

Rando, you do understand a soverign nation has been invaded right? You do know who is the bad guy right?

Feb 25, 22 5:52 pm  · 
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randomised

It’s a personal response hence the personal perspective, has nothing to do with narcissus. But I guess you don’t understand living in a country that is always the aggressor, occupier and invader and the toppler of governments and not the one being invaded, overthrown and occupied. And we don’t need to get rid of nato, they just shouldn’t give people false hope. it’s the aggressive expansion of nato (during a time of Russian weakness after the collapse of the CCCP) that paved the way for a crook like Putin to emerge and all the wars he started and countries he invaded, not sure why people have this blind spot…and also remember it was nato/us that bombed the Serbs that redrew the map of Europe single-handedly and without UN backing in 99, they killed the Slavic orthodox brothers and sisters of the Russians and forced the establishing of Kosovo. That is pure propaganda gold for Putin to justify his stance against nato…nato kills his kind of people (even though the Ukrainians are also Slavs and orthodox, being a dictator must be difficult to twist your mind like that etc, similar to the US pretending to be a global peacekeeper I guess). The EU and Russia will come out of this weaker and damaged, that’s what the US has aimed for all along in this conflict and earlier (remember Nuland!). But I have good hopes that the people of Russia will rise up against Putin now, looking at the streets of Russian cities packed with anti-war demonstrators, I really hope that cat escaped the bag as well and that Ukraine prevails. But enough for now, back to doom scrolling all the different news outlets, The Guardian is doing a splendid job with their live feeds.

Feb 26, 22 10:28 am  · 
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∑ π ∓ √ ∞

Fuck the news, doom scroll this; https://www.instagram.com/battles.and.beers/

Feb 26, 22 11:14 am  · 
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sameolddoctor

The EU has been dragging their feet mostly cuz they need Russia's oil

Feb 28, 22 12:46 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

Yes, the EU doesn't usually invade other sovereign countries to "get" at their oil, they pay for it, and Russia is quite close by so yeah...

Feb 28, 22 3:38 pm  · 
 · 
∑ π ∓ √ ∞

Bad Boyfriend
Feb 25, 22 6:26 pm  · 
2  · 
randomised

Something to think about, a linguistic map of Ukraine followed by an excellent informative lecture from 6yrs ago on the build-up of the conflict in Ukraine:


Feb 28, 22 8:05 am  · 
 ·  1

Some other things to think about.


Feb 28, 22 11:30 am  · 
3  · 
randomised

Hahaha, not the same…and you know it, I hope. You could also just watch that YouTube-video by the University of Chicago, or only listen to its audio while working, if you’d want to learn something about this conflict that is…up to you :-)

Feb 28, 22 12:17 pm  · 
 · 

Did I say they where the same? I said there are some other things to think about. What are you thinking about?

Feb 28, 22 12:20 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

yes rando, please use your architecture degree and educate us on global geo-political issues; i see it's helped you find and post a video that has been circulating the internet for days now. very impressive.

Feb 28, 22 12:33 pm  · 
3  ·  1
sameolddoctor

Same dumb conspiracy theory video

Feb 28, 22 12:47 pm  · 
1  ·  1
randomised

Sorry, that it doesn’t even cross your collectively brainwashed minds that the US is not the good guy…must be tiring to label everything that doesn’t fit in with your worldview a dumb conspiracy. It is because the US refuses to give in a single inch (expanding their influence so aggressively led to the Russian-Georgian war in ‘08 and the annexation of Crimea in ‘14) that Putin didn’t see any other option than the military one…(not that I agree with him, obviously) and the US doesn’t care, they will only profit from this, motherfucking warmongering imperialists in power, dem and rep, even worse than Putin. Starting illegal wars all over the world, seen Condoleeza Rice on Fox? Probably not… I’m am truly amazed that educated Americans as yourselves don’t see through this…but whatever, it is probably all propaganda and an anti-American conspiracy, right? The US is even capable of using the suffering of the Ukrainian people for US domestic political gain…

Feb 28, 22 2:22 pm  · 
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randomised

EA, this was not directed at you

Feb 28, 22 2:31 pm  · 
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sameolddoctor

The problem with being (for lack of a better word), the "Big Dog" is that you get criticized for everything. Most of us on this forum are aware that the US government is not saintly, by any means, but blaming the US for the actions of a madman is just plainly dumb. Perhaps the EU governments should also do some meaningful action rather than sit and drink their espressos, playing armchair wars, cuz they mostly have no say or resources to do anything else. But perhaps, that's not the issue. The issue is that hundreds of thousands of families and kids are being displaced, while most of the world looks the other way.

Feb 28, 22 2:36 pm  · 
1  · 
square.

text book strawman - where specifically did i say us was the good guy? i'm well aware of the us/nato's role in much of this, but your post further proves my point that you're largely talking out of/to your ass with no particular audience in mind, repeating the same (narrow) "arguments" over and over, projecting them at the supposed flag-waving, saber-rattling americans on this site who in reality aren't talking to you. a bit nutty if you ask me.

Feb 28, 22 2:41 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

The overlap in language and political affiliation is almost 1:1 in Ukraine (2004-2007-2010, so pre-coup, pre-annexation): 

Looks kind of like they are two different countries...

Feb 28, 22 2:45 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

"The issue is that hundreds of thousands of families and kids are being displaced, while most of the world looks the other way."

With most of the world meaning the US...those women and children being displaced are being picked up at the border and taken in by those "horrible" regimes like Poland and Hungary among others, private people from all over the bordering countries (minus Belarus obviously) are driving to the border to pick up people and provide them shelter and a home, including their pets.

Feb 28, 22 2:53 pm  · 
 · 

Rando - weren't you the one who stated that only a fool would come to Archinect to learn about current geo-political events?  Why post about any of this here?  Why not go to an actual reputable political site to have these discussions?  


Feb 28, 22 3:00 pm  · 
1  · 

I don't think the portrayal that Ukraine looks like two different countries is helping much. A divided Ukraine is more problematic globally than a unified one whether it sides with Western alliances, Russia, or remains relatively neutral.

If I recall correctly (it's been a bit since I watched it or read a summary of it), that's also one of the points of the speaker in the video you posted. Isn't one of his points that a unified and neutral Ukraine is probably the best overall outcome? In other words a divided Ukraine with the western side allied with NATO and Western Europe, and the eastern side allied with Russia would be disastrous because of the conflict that would likely erupt along the dividing line between the two?

Feb 28, 22 3:12 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

I believe that was about coming to archinect for medical advice, wasn't it? Not sure, haven't slept all that well these last few days...had to take my kids to an anti-war demonstration yesterday in our capital for which my 4yr old painted a lovely Stop Putin sign that is now in our window, he's worried about his grandparents, uncles, aunts and cousins living at the border of a war zone and asked me dead serious if we have a bomb shelter in our apartment building.

Feb 28, 22 3:19 pm  · 
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randomised

"text book strawman"

not really, it is textbook cause and effect unfortunately.

Feb 28, 22 3:24 pm  · 
 · 

Rando - pandemic info, politics, religion - it's all geo-political. The question stands. Why come to an architecture site to debate politics? Wouldn't yo be better served with by using a reputable political site?  You'd learn more and have access to better informed users with current information. Why debate here?  

Feb 28, 22 3:27 pm  · 
 · 
∑ π ∓ √ ∞

I'm trying to figure out what those maps of election results prove? It's like when people show large swaths of the grand canyon as voting republican, as if....

Feb 28, 22 3:31 pm  · 
1  · 
sameolddoctor

Rando, no one called the Hungarians, Romanians and Poles "horrible people". Kudos to them for helping out and sheltering the Ukrainian people, and if I am not mistaken, the largest amount of aid, both supplies-wise and personnel-wise is coming from the US. I do not see many people from dutch families going to help.

Feb 28, 22 4:48 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

b3ta, it proves what you want it to prove...that it's a failed state deeply divided along ethno/linguistic lines perhaps.

Feb 28, 22 4:49 pm  · 
 · 

Ugh, can we try not to turn this into a tit-for-tat "look at what we are doing to help Ukraine" dick-wagging competition?

Feb 28, 22 4:52 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised
chad, this is the site, I thought, where also politics could be discussed among many other things (some even architectural), I know I'd have other equally well informed people (as myself) to discuss with at other sites but it is clear that my mission is here, so much educating to do here, why should I preach to the choir? so much work/deprogramming to be done here!
Feb 28, 22 4:57 pm  · 
 · 
square.

so much work/deprogramming to be done here!

this is the problem - you're not engaging in debate or discussion with anyone; you're presenting your dilettante "research" as objective truth, with and incredibly arrogant and condescending tone, when in reality it's quite obvious you know only as much as your profession allows.

Feb 28, 22 5:00 pm  · 
1  · 
randomised

Another possibly informative piece of the puzzle, from just before Putin's invasion, watch (or listen) at 1.25/1.5 speed and it doesn't even take too much of anyone's time:

 


Feb 28, 22 5:06 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

fyi square, my profession allowed me to study Ukraine, visit Ukraine, speak with Ukrainians in Ukraine...and do a project there, but what do I know? better follow the storyline served up by the traditionalist hawks in name of "freedom and democracy"

Feb 28, 22 5:23 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

"Ugh, can we try not to turn this into a tit-for-tat "look at what we are doing to help Ukraine" dick-wagging competition?"

The US has done enough already[/sarc]

Feb 28, 22 5:24 pm  · 
 · 
∑ π ∓ √ ∞

Jimmy Dore? Really? That fuck? Really.

Feb 28, 22 5:55 pm  · 
 · 
∑ π ∓ √ ∞

Wow, spoke to Ukrainians. Sounds a little bit like Sarah Palin.


Feb 28, 22 5:55 pm  · 
1  ·  1
randomised

Yes b3ta, really...the first and only video of Jimmy Dore I've ever seen, what's the problem with that? Don't know the guy, I just listened to what was being said, you could try it sometimes perhaps. Oh wait, you're shooting the messenger to not have to watch the message, right? And yes, I've been to the Ukraine, have walked on the same very streets that have seen an Orange Revolution, a massacre and a US backed/instigated coup and now a war, my guess is, you haven't...

Feb 28, 22 6:02 pm  · 
 · 

Rando - I don't believe that you participate in other reputable political forums. You're too scared.

Feb 28, 22 6:21 pm  · 
1  ·  1
proto

certain messengers have reputations for their messaging -- that's life when you are pushing messaging for outrage clicks

Feb 28, 22 6:55 pm  · 
2  · 

proto - that's a sad and pathetic way to get fleeting attention from people who will forget you the second they leave the forum

Feb 28, 22 6:57 pm  · 
 · 
∑ π ∓ √ ∞

Sure random, you're right, but I did stay at a Days Inn, so I think I know more than you.

Feb 28, 22 9:15 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

"Isn't one of his points that a unified and neutral Ukraine is probably the best overall outcome? In other words a divided Ukraine with the western side allied with NATO and Western Europe, and the eastern side allied with Russia would be disastrous because of the conflict that would likely erupt along the dividing line between the two?"

EA, I'm not saying that because Ukraine looks like two separate countries ethno/linguistically/politically that it should simply be cut up and divided, it is just to show how complex and complicated it all is...Ukraine actually means something along the lines of Border Land etymologically and it shows... A neutral Ukraine is exactly what China is opting for as well, so the US will obviously never let that happen, they'd rather let Putin shoot Ukraine to smithereens as long as they can dump massive amounts of weapons there for the opposing side(s) in a never ending conflict for years and years to come, draining Russia and EU resources :-( 

Lockheed Martin stock value:


Mar 1, 22 2:36 am  · 
 · 
randomised

"Rando - I don't believe that you participate in other reputable political forums. You're too scared."

Chad, maybe I wasn't clear, but why should I preach to the converted/the choir? Has nothing to do with being scared of some little conversation/discussion, I just don't have an interest in joining a political forum. I'd rather discuss politics here and educate some in the process...you're very welcome!

Mar 1, 22 2:44 am  · 
 · 
randomised

"certain messengers have reputations for their messaging -- that's life when you are pushing messaging for outrage clicks"

Proto, that doesn't mean they're wrong though, just that you refuse to acknowledge that they might be right (in this case)...I think it is actually quite dangerous if you constantly and consistently shut out certain sources of information beforehand, you'll be only partly informed, more susceptible to misinformation and fake news without even realising it.

Mar 1, 22 2:49 am  · 
 · 
square.

I'd rather discuss politics here and educate some in the process...you're very welcome!

you must be delightful in-person.

Mar 1, 22 9:25 am  · 
1  · 

Rando - your posts here are riddled with strawmen, misinformation, logical fallacies, and blatant trolling. As such your credibility and reputation is nearly as nonexistent as x-jla's. With such a reputation you're not educating anyone. You're not a stupid person and you must realize this. All you're doing is hearing yourself talk for the sake of your own ego.

As I said above, this is a sad and pathetic way to get fleeting attention from people who will forget you the second they leave the forum.

Mar 1, 22 10:24 am  · 
1  ·  1
randomised

I don’t want attention, I would like people to educate themselves on what is happening here. The ease at which an alternative, not American centric, but very well informed explanation to events is ridiculed and/or ignored by highly educated people is just beyond comprehension to me and makes me very sad in the times ahead. A little understanding for the arguments and issues of people you have a disagreement with is totally absent it seems, the widespread American propaganda is a stubborn one…it wouldn’t even for a single second come to mind that the US has had a major role in bringing the war back to the European continent, and the people that dare to question the role America plays on the global stage are ridiculed left, right and center.

Mar 1, 22 11:09 am  · 
 · 
square.

just because we aren't playing your dumb troll games doesn't mean we aren't educating ourselves - again, pompous, presumptuous, and borderline narcissistic that you need to be involved in order for others to be enlightened.

Mar 1, 22 11:19 am  · 
 · 

Rando - where has anyone said that the US didn't influence the invasion of Ukraine? 

Any remotely informed person understands the long history of how the US, Russia, China, Belarus and their allies have influenced this war. 

You're not educating anyone.  You're spreading bullshit conspiracy theories about a war because you're scared and don't understand what's going on.  Just stop.  

Mar 1, 22 1:08 pm  · 
2  · 
tduds

All of Rando's points in this discussion rest on two assumptions that make me extremely uncomfortable: 1) that Ukraine shouldn't have agency in their own foreign policy pursuits, and 2) that ethno-states are good.

Mar 1, 22 1:10 pm  · 
3  ·  1

tduds - I've noticed that about a lot of Rando's views. He's very ethno-centric and seems to have the view that people need to be told how to live by the rules he has set forth. It's almost like an authoritarian regime with Rando.

Mar 1, 22 1:48 pm  · 
1  ·  1
,,,,

Rando, posting of that language map is one of VPs manufactured justifications for invasion. In essence it is analogous to manifest destiny- the political predicate for the genocide of Native Americans. It takes a lot of temerity to presume anyone's ignorance of
political leaders and their policies past and present. You are not educating anyone.

Mar 1, 22 1:54 pm  · 
 · 
∑ π ∓ √ ∞

tduds, those maps only heighten my sense of random.

Mar 1, 22 2:04 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Another thing that strikes me is that I don't think these views are particularly out of step with mainstream European liberalism.

Mar 1, 22 3:49 pm  · 
 · 
proto

..

Mar 1, 22 4:27 pm  · 
 · 

I can't comment on the mainstream views of European liberalism. I can say that I find the majority of Rando's ethno-centric authoritarian views hypocritical.

Mar 1, 22 4:28 pm  · 
 ·  1
poop876

Chad, can you provide anything concrete like Rando has done? Just curious!

Mar 1, 22 4:55 pm  · 
1  · 

poop876

The things Rando has posted aren't concrete - they are screen grabs and conspiracy theories. If you like I can post a dozen links to what the current situation is in Ukraine. Of course the links will be outdated by the time I post them. 

I find it odd that people are arguing about assigning blame for the war instead of the various potentially apocalyptic ways countries are attempting to stop or promote it.

Mar 1, 22 6:47 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

"All of Rando's points in this discussion rest on two assumptions that make me extremely uncomfortable: 1) that Ukraine shouldn't have agency in their own foreign policy pursuits, and 2) that ethno-states are good." 

You couldn't be more wrong tduds...I'm not against Ukraine having agency in their foreign policy pursuits, it's just that it is very difficult to know what and where Ukraine actually is as a country and as a people, they are deeply divided, so deeply that people started a separatist movement to break away from it all. When their previous (democratically elected) president (the one that had a western backed coup against him after he shot at pro-western protestors) wanted to make a deal with the EU, a not so lucrative one for Ukraine, Russia simply offered a much better deal for Ukraine that the president thought was in the best interest of his country and his people, the Ukrainians. So the West instigated a coup and put their puppet there to force the deal with the West. So yeah, who is having agency here or there? And I don't think ethno states are by definition good or bad, nor multi-ethnic ones. Let's judge states/States by their actions how mono- or multi-ethnic they are is irrelevant. All I wanted to highlight is the long running and deep divide through the country, that seemed (understatement) to be impossible to bridge, similar to Yugoslavia after their Communist dictatorship...

Mar 2, 22 5:39 am  · 
 · 
randomised

Chad, It is very easy to simply label everything that doesn't fit in with your views a conspiracy. When I write here about the war in Ukraine, when I try to explain a point of view that doesn't make it my personal point of view. Sorry if that all goes over your head. I'm not pro ethno-states run by autocrats at all, doesn't mean I can't try to understand their point of view in the matter to better understand the situation.

Mar 2, 22 5:47 am  · 
 · 
tduds

I don't have time to refute each individual claim up there but that's Russian propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

Mar 2, 22 11:01 am  · 
 ·  1

Rando - it's easy to label something a conspiracy theory when it doesn't have any evidence to back up it's claims. It's even easier when said theory's only supporting evidence is a YouTube video.

Mar 2, 22 12:58 pm  · 
 ·  1
proto

Thx for posting that...interesting perspective, tho not sure I agree that the results follow as implied without acknowledging Russian imperialist aspirations.

There are a whole number of countries who play nicely together and are not threatened by NATO. I imagine NATO-neighboring countries look at both sides; and subsequently some are requesting entry, and others are happy to see stability but not interested in joining. The choice to apply, in and of itself, is telling of the dynamic at play when considering the Russian position.

Mar 2, 22 1:12 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

Chad, the evidence is not the YT videos but what is being discussed in the videos, that lecture from University of Chicago has quite a clear timeline in it of events that could help you put things in perspective.

Mar 2, 22 3:48 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

Whether or not Ukraine joins NATO is (and should be) up to Ukraine. Like I said above, any other position is based on denying agency to the country itself.

Mar 2, 22 4:04 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

Nope, it's not up to Ukraine but up to NATO: "Any decision to invite a country to join the Alliance is taken by the North Atlantic Council on the basis of consensus among all Allies."

Mar 2, 22 4:46 pm  · 
 · 

Do you notice how that says "invite a country to join" and not "compel a country to join." It's up to Ukraine if they want to accept the invitation.

Note the invitation has to have consensus among all the allied member states as well. So maybe you could simply lobby at home for your government to vote no on their inclusion. Probably have a better result that trying to educate us here. You've already made it clear you have concerns with them in the EU so it shouldn't be that hard, right?

Mar 2, 22 7:08 pm  · 
 · 

Am I being too cynical when I see statements about stopping work in Russia and I think it's because of the sanctions that are being imposed and not necessarily because of solidarity with Ukraine, etc.? Because if I am, please let me know I am, and why I shouldn't be so cynical.

At any rate, here's a link to MVRDV's statement: https://www.mvrdv.nl/news/4091...

P.s. I also get that it could actually be both sanctions and solidarity.

Feb 28, 22 12:17 pm  · 
1  · 
∑ π ∓ √ ∞

It's not cynical. Firms are definitely going to hide behind sanctions.

Feb 28, 22 2:32 pm  · 
 · 
sameolddoctor

The actual way to support the Ukrainians would be to stop work in China, the biggest supporter of the Russians. But no architecture office in their right minds will do that, cuz moolah.

Feb 28, 22 2:37 pm  · 
3  · 
randomised

If governments can hide behind measures so will firms...have already heard that the inflation and rising prizes are because of the war in Ukraine...firms design projects in China, in the Middle-East with basically slave labour or even in the US, so yes also in Russia and Ukraine. It is totally logical to stop working on projects in countries that are invaded, when the staff of your partner offices either has to flee or join the army. If they wouldn't stop work in Russia too (apart from the SWIFT and banking stuff), it would look like they chose sides, which would be a PR-disaster.

The biggest trade partner of Russia is the EU by the way, and the biggest trade partner affected by the sanctions is also the EU, but that didn't stop the EU from (finally) imposing these sanctions and simultaneously offer Ukraine EU-membership.

Feb 28, 22 3:04 pm  · 
 · 

I don't disagree that it would be a PR disaster to continue projects in Russia as you outline, I just think it's more of a scapegoat than anything else. If you ("you" generally ... not "you" specifically randomised) can't get paid for your work, you'll stop doing that work anyway. The PR thing is more or less to help you save face. I just don't think we need to trip over ourselves to pat firms on the back when they get the PR machine humming.

Feb 28, 22 3:24 pm  · 
1  · 
SneakyPete

I keep coming back hoping for some insights from the folks who use their noggins but all the new replies are under a thread started by some random internet troll, so I see nothing. Anyone want to pop up their thoughts so those of us with an ignore list can participate?

Mar 1, 22 5:29 pm  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

You must have taken a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

Mar 2, 22 8:11 am  · 
2  · 

You're not missing much. No one is really trying to be an expert or, if they are, has shared that much insight apart from rando who apparently has it all figured out and has taken up the mantel of educating the rest of us ignoramuses.

Mar 2, 22 11:52 am  · 
2  · 

Stupid typo. Mantle, not mantel.

Mar 2, 22 1:00 pm  · 
 · 
randomised

"No one is really trying to be an expert or, if they are, has shared that much insight apart from rando who apparently has it all figured out and has taken up the mantel of educating the rest of us ignoramuses."

Maybe it's because I live in Europe and all of you simply don't...maybe it's because I've been to Ukraine and all of you haven't...maybe it's because my kids are multi-ethnic with Dutch/Polish and some German and Polish Ukrainian in there, with their grandparents living only 300miles from this warzone...maybe it's because my partner grew up under Russian occupation...maybe indeed I do know a little bit more of what's going on here and what's at stake on my continent than all of you safely far away with an ocean on each side, I'm half as far from Kyiv than LA is from New York...

Mar 2, 22 3:43 pm  · 
 · 
tduds

We're all reading the same internet.

Mar 2, 22 4:02 pm  · 
2  · 
randomised

Don't necessarily think so, your internet is much more confined to the Anglosphere, mine is multi-ethnic and multi-lingual by default ;-)

Mar 2, 22 4:43 pm  · 
 · 

Rando - you've made several "all of you" statements that assume a lot. I for one can say you're wrong on all of those statements when it comes to me.

Stop trying to troll.  You're really bad at it and just make yourself look foolish and rather conceded.  

Mar 2, 22 6:26 pm  · 
2  · 

Sorry rando, I think you misread my comment. I never said nor tried to imply that it didn't affect you more or less than the rest of us. Being affected by and being expert in are not the same though. Nor does proximity automatically result in better understanding of the events. I appreciate your opinions, but perhaps they'd be better received if they were presented thusly and not as fact.

Mar 2, 22 7:18 pm  · 
1  · 
SneakyPete

I saw Ukraine on map once.

Mar 2, 22 10:10 pm  · 
1  · 
curtkram

I'm a few days late to this thread, but is random saying he can contribute something of value? If so, why won't he?

Mar 17, 22 8:37 pm  · 
1  · 

He can't and even if he could he wouldn't.

Mar 18, 22 10:41 am  · 
 · 
∑ π ∓ √ ∞

Antifada


Majority Report


Everyone Loves Communism


Three very good podcasts.

Mar 17, 22 6:51 pm  · 
 · 
fangl

Hi everyone, I am just wondering if it is okay to talk about things controversial in ur MArch application portfolios..?

May 24, 22 4:11 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

Such as what topics? Is the controversial topic one with the possibility of intelligent and balanced discussion or is it just nonsense pop-culture conspiracy shit idiot students follow because it makes them think they are smarter than others?

May 24, 22 4:29 pm  · 
1  · 
∑ π ∓ √ ∞

No. White people don't like controversial topics.

May 24, 22 4:42 pm  · 
1  · 

Unless it's denying such topics exist.

May 24, 22 4:43 pm  · 
1  · 
ivanmillya

While I agree 100% with the sentiment, I did some looking through Denver's House1000, because I was curious how this housing was tracked, and its quality of living... I found this article from last September:

"But anyone who was homeless on the streets who secured housing through the city and lives indoors for at least 14 days will have received what Johnston is considering a “housing outcome,” explained Clarissa Boggs-Blake, a manager with the Office of Emergency Management’s Joint Information Center, in an email to Denverite.

If people return to a tent from a shelter after 14 days, they will still be considered a part of the 1,000 people housed."

The article goes on that the "housing" being mentioned counts bridge & transitional housing, existing homeless shelters, and motel conversions. While those are safer than the outdoors during freezing temperatures, it's definitively not actually housing (at least according to federal standards).

The goal to also permanently shut down tent encampments also is a point of concern for me. See more on my thoughts about that from this older thread I posted.

Jan 22, 24 6:42 am  · 
1  · 

Hi Jovan totally agree with the need to build permanent housing for all. That being said some of the initial concerns with metrics/tracking were addressed as I understand it. As one of the links I posted originally notes the program eventually found it "Housed 1,034 Denverites living on the streets in permanent units, converted hotels, and tiny home micro-communities, 98% of which are still indoors" though again totally fair to point out that "indoors" is certainly not same as a "home".

Jan 22, 24 5:21 pm  · 
1  · 
ivanmillya

"Tiny home micro-communities" also very much bothers me, for the same reasons as the link I posted above...depending on the specific project, these "micro-communities" are really just a polite way of saying "we took all the homeless people and put them into little garden sheds where they don't actually get to have personal space or property." I'd definitely have to read more into it, but I'm very cautious with most planned/designed solutions toward homelessness.

Jan 22, 24 7:24 pm  · 
1  · 

I'm nervous over New Hampshire. I dream of seeing Haley demolish trup with the help of independent voters, but I don't have high hopes.

Jan 23, 24 2:10 pm  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

Hey now, NH is like just a few hours away from me... Ahhhhhh, the crazy is getting closer.

Jan 23, 24 2:28 pm  · 
 · 

I have no hope for anything anymore.

Jan 23, 24 2:55 pm  · 
2  · 

Non - you better get your hocky sticks ready.

Jan 23, 24 4:53 pm  · 
 · 
proto

I had a conversation at dinner last night with friends from college. Someone remarked that our kids, who are in college now, haven’t been exposed to a presidential political cycle in which Trump wasn’t part of the conversation. Meaning as they became teens, their world awareness started to include the political/cultural/social/trend media; and that the old norms for rule-of-law, decency, moderation, or even compromise in politics are somewhat foreign to gen Z. They’ve grown up with outrage tactics and overstated spin as the common communication language; metaphorical comparisons aping as measured factual considerations; whatever gets clicks to emphasize an “emotional truth” [“truthiness”], if not always a factual one. Overstated opinions or entertainment as politics to garner clicks & views; provocative clickbait headlines with the facts buried “below the fold”. Youtube, “independent journalists”, facebook, snap, xwitter, memes, etc

I do wonder how this reflects in some of the political outlooks I see on here — without knowing the general ages of the various posters, is a generational experience coloring the presentation or the life-experience of the poster? How much has our current brand of outrage politics colored the way we share the american experience? If we share any experiences at all between generations despite us all seeing the public events unfold around us?

Also related & ongoing question every few years: how do people even get their news now? Talkradio/localnews/facebook/DailyShow/Tiktok/Xwitter/Truth/Fox/CNN/NYT/NPR/Breitbart/youtube/blog/etc

Feb 24, 24 11:26 am  · 
 · 
ivanmillya

I was a tween when Obama was elected in 2008, and have lived in a variety of political climates since then (from moderate California to liberal democrat NYC to moderate republican SLC to where I live currently in Florida). I think dismissing my (or others') views as "Oh you're just too young to know anything beyond Trump's manipulative politics" is really ignorant of the fact that our world has been alarmingly becoming more unequal in nearly all categories of social life, and that younger people simply don't want the future that's being prescribed to them.

I primarily get my news from a variety of online sources, which include large media organizations from around the world (i.e. BBC, CNN, Fox, Al-Jazeera, etc.), as well as from Youtube, TikTok, and op-eds from various international zines and independent websites.

Feb 24, 24 11:42 am  · 
 · 
proto

Thank you for your response, Jovan. I appreciate it.

I do think there’s a cultural currency in urgency that is not correlated to actual impacts. No topic gets attention unless it is delivered as being dialed up to 11. While this has historically been true, it’s only in the internet decades that overstating a position in order to push a more moderate acceptable position has become a seemingly essential presentation strategy. And even more recently, it’s become a manner of communicating between people. Moderation or compromise is considered weakness (or lack of commitment; or complicity with the extreme opposite).

I question extreme statements as purposefully provocative because of this currency, especially as no one issue exists in a vacuum & not every topic can be catastrophic concurrently or everlastingly. Seeing past that communication style IMHO may require more perspective and experience [and is a spectrum without end, ie we keep learning and applying that revised perspective as we get older]. I totally get that that may appear dismissive. But I also am not going to apologize for what accumulated wisdom I can claim.

This media culture did not always exist & change still occurred.

I do want to understand why people hold their opinions. I do want to hear what helped them get there. I try to explain my arrival to a certain perspective as I am able. But I also hope that compromise is not dead because we are an incredibly complex world & no one gets their way all the time. [& sorry for the wall of text!]

Feb 24, 24 1:17 pm  · 
 · 
gwharton

The political divergence proto is lamenting here pre-dates the Trump Era by more than two decades, and is not a new thing by any measure. It's also much more accurate describe Trump's popularity and resurgent right populism as a reaction to it rather than a cause.

Note how far the median left position had shifted to an extreme vs the right median at the beginning of Trump's first term in office.

Feb 28, 24 11:23 am  · 
 · 
gwharton

Similarly, in Congress, the positional overlap at the political center had completely disappeared by the early 1990s.


Feb 28, 24 11:27 am  · 
 · 

gwharton, I hope you understand the second graph you posted contradicts your assertion from the first that the liberal median has shifted so drastically to the left when comparing 1994 to 2017. If not, here's a handy visual to help. Seems it's the median right that's shifting more extreme rather than the left.

*Now I know you'll say they aren't measuring the same groups or whatever, but if US House hasn't shifted that far, what is the first set of charts showing ... registered party members?

Feb 28, 24 12:37 pm  · 
1  · 

So the first charts are about ideological consistency across 10 points, not about extremity. So you were inferring something from the visualization that the visualization was never meant to illustrate. Pew says so quite explicitly.

https://www.pewresearch.org/po...

Feb 28, 24 12:52 pm  · 
2  · 

Congrats on being manipulated by partisan propaganda being put out there in an uncredited editorial from Investor's Business Daily

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/pew-research-center-study-shows-that-democrats-have-shifted-to-the-extreme-left/

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/investors-business-daily/

Feb 28, 24 1:10 pm  · 
2  · 
proto

@gwharton, my lament isn't really about political divergence per se, but that def is a result. Dems & reps do traffic in it purposefully. It makes the presumption of dialog or progress difficult at best.

Feb 28, 24 3:48 pm  · 
1  · 
gwharton

If you look at the median shift directions and magnitudes in the Pew results over time, the trends are pretty clear. This animation helps illustrate them.

It also matches comparative experience. Trump is considered by many on the left today to be a deranged right-wing extremist. His actual policies and governing style are bog-standard 1994 Democrat.

Feb 28, 24 5:09 pm  · 
 · 

An animation showing what exactly? There are no x- or y-axis labels to tell you so you default to a position that leftward motion is bad. Go back and read what the Pew survey is actually talking about and you'll see it's not about extremity but consistency. If you want to say the median liberal is becoming more ideologically consistent with liberal values or viewpoints ... that's fine because that's what the chart is showing. It's showing that fewer Democrats are holding onto conservative views and actually being ideologically consistent. Pew explains this if you wanted to read:

"At the same time, the center of the scale has shifted in a somewhat liberal direction over time. To a large extent, this is the result of the public’s growing acceptance of homosexuality and more positive views of immigrants, shifts that are seen among both Democrats and Republicans (GOP attitudes about immigrants are little changed over the last decade, but Republicans are substantially less likely to view immigrants as a burden on the country than they were in the 1990s)."

In other words, what you're really complaining about is that the general public, including some of those who call themselves Republicans, is becoming less homophobic and xenophobic. The largest shifts to the left are almost entirely in the realm of recognizing systemic racism and discrimination and prejudices against poor people, immigrants, and homosexuals.

Feb 28, 24 9:00 pm  · 
3  · 
sameolddoctor

Funny thing is that the liberals (screaming at progressives to vote for Biden) is the best thing that happened to the republicans. The more you scream, the less inclined I am to vote for anyone.

Feb 28, 24 12:03 pm  · 
 · 

Feel free to not vote but then you have no right to complain.

Feb 28, 24 12:56 pm  · 
 · 
JonathanLivingston

Isn't the right to complain enshrined in the constitution?

Feb 28, 24 12:57 pm  · 
1  · 
proto

"screaming"? hmm...

"Isn't the right to complain enshrined in the constitution?" right next to voting...

Feb 28, 24 3:27 pm  · 
 · 

Johnathan - not really. 

The entire idea of the 1A is that your speech can cause change and thus the government can't regulate it. If you're not going to vote then you've given up your ability to affect change. 

Sure you can still complain and feel like you're doing something, but in reality you're not accomplishing much. Now complaining and voting - that has the highest change of affecting change.

Feb 28, 24 5:51 pm  · 
 · 
proto

If we had RCV nationally, would that change enthusiasm to vote?

Feb 29, 24 10:20 am  · 
 · 

I think that would be a great idea.

Feb 29, 24 1:24 pm  · 
 · 

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