I guess I didn't exercise my standard of care for that one... don't report me to the board.

I ain't no snitch ;)

True, but it offers leverage for option 2, and opens up more opportunities for option 3.

I disagree...you have the same skills/experiences on the day before you're licensed as you do the day after. So to a current/potential employer, you're not any more valuable (unless they need someone to stamp drawings, which is unlikely) with that license. The exception would be if a firm requires employees holding a certain title "project architect" to actually be licensed, but I don't know of any firms who would hold back a talented employee from filling that role even if they weren't licensed. They'd just call them "project designer."

For the most part it's true that an employee's skillset really hasn't changed just by acquiring a license. That being said they hopefully did actually retain a few things they studied and are now at least slightly more knowledgeable. There are also many situations in which a firm sends out a proposal listing staff on a project including how many of them are licensed. That is an area where there can be a tangible benefit to the firm. Again not saying any of these are massive increases in value but there are some.

True enough...and being licensed is a general indicator of competence and ability to achieve long term goals.

Some additional reasons for why a license may matter to a firm, which aren't directly skill-related: 1. We work mostly on public projects in a Quality-Based Selection state. The rules dictate exactly which personnel/roles must be in the proposals, and the selection system is point-based, advantaging those with licenses and other certifications, so we'd be unlikely to assign a PM, JC, or lead designer who doesn't have a license.  That relegates unlicensed people to support roles, so caps advancement. 2. Our insurer doesn't allow some PM tasks - especially field observation - to be done by an unaccompanied unlicensed person. 3. An unlicensed person can't be designated "key personnel" for insurance purposes (in other words the firm can't have them insured with itself as beneficiary, which is typically done for high-level managers/directors/project architects.). 4. Unlicensed people can't own any % of the firm in some states, so if a firm is thinking about a hire as on a succession plan track, they may not want to count on someone unlicensed getting around to getting licensed.

I will agree that you have the same skill/experiences on the day before you're licensed as you do the day after ... but simplifying your progression within a firm or your ability to qualify for a position at another firm to this alone assumes that all firms are run as a pure meritocracy where your position is only based on your acquired skills and experiences. The reality is that progression within firms and even getting an interview at other firms may be predicated on the piece of paper saying you are licensed to practice architecture. The ability to stamp drawings is not the only thing a license gets you.

jcarch, isn't that kind of like saying that you have the same skills on the day you before you receive a diploma as you do the day after, so you don't deserve anything from getting a degree? i think the raise expected once you get your license isn't because an accumulation of skills over the course of 24hrs before and after literally officially becoming license but the path of work required to get there.

Rick, you waste a lot of time explaining what employers "should" be doing or what is "typical" in the industry despite having next to zero actual experience. Many employers only offer modest cost of living adjustment raises until certain milestones are hit. Licensure is often that milestone.

Get a job.

Rick the more you type the more obvious it is you don't have a clue.

Rick you're extrapolating internal office titles, promotions, and advancement from titles that are mostly only used in employment ads. When we advertise for outside hires, we need to define the role so that we get people who more or less fit the experience level we're looking for at that time. That's all those titles and parameters are for - to make job seekers understand what we've got in mind, and evaluate whether they more or less fit with that. Some of the job boards specifically require that we describe things this way, or even select the titles/years of experience from menus - so the titles are just the closest to what we're looking for, and not necessarily what we call those things in-house, or any indication of a formal system of progression from one job ad title to the next. These are descriptions for hiring purposes, and don't necessarily reflect any rigid adherence to those titles within the firm.

For instance, let's say you reply to an ad for an "Intern 1" fresh out of architecture school. Within the firm you're usually not going to be called an "Intern 1". You'll probably have a title that's more presentable when introducing you to clients - like "Designer" or "Technician". At your annual review nobody's going to say "now you are an Intern 2!" You basically stay "Designer" or "Technician", until you reach some threshold of perceived experience and/or credentials that bumps you to a new position. In a larger firm in particular, without a license the bumps can be small-ish - to things like "Job Captain" or "Assistant PM", even when you've got several years' experience - and they don't necessarily have set numbers of years attached, or raises.
Often a license is what can catapult you over a few of those levels - say straight from "Designer" to "Project Manager" - because it affirms that you have broad basic competence, and because it satisfies various marketing, insurance, and public procurement process requirements for who can be put in that position.

You need to GET A JOB IN A FIRM before your advice on anything related to working in a firm will be worth anything at all. There's absolutely no substitute for it. You can read all the job ads in the world and you still won't know anything about the profession.
If you've got no interest in working in architecture, then great - that's your prerogative and I doubt there are many here who are too invested in you becoming an architect. But if you've got no interest in that then why do you want to spend so much time posting about it? Do you do this with other professions you don't want to join? Is the limited time that you don't spend on this forum spent lecturing morticians and dairy farmers, based on what you've read on LinkedIn? What's the point of this for you?

You think you're being funny to bring home a point. But the point will be totally lost on him, because he very likely is lecturing morticians and farmers. And wedding photographers and corrections officers...

The more you rant and whine, the more I will do whatever it is to annoy you, piss you off, and all in entire spite.

There you have it. What we've all suspected lo these many years.

"I am going to say whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want and you will just have to listen or ignore me and I do not care if you like it or not so because I exercise my freedom of speech and expression however I wish and if you don't like it, go live with Kim Jong Un." 

Okay but you're still wrong. 

Rick, no one is "complaining" about what you have to say or that you said it. You are attempting to lecture a group of educated professionals on a)their profession and b)their education, despite knowing little to nothing about either. Now that Threesleeve laid out just how ignorant your previous post was your only rebuttal is "you're not the boss of me!" How about you get back to Ricksplaining (incorrectly of course) how job titles and promotions work in medium to large sized firms.

Demanding to be treated as an equal immediately after admitting to participating here entirely out of spite is too immature and unintelligent to ever recover from.

Ricky, I don't think anyone here believes you're sincere about your "trolling" ways. Shsss, I hear the queen is outside looking to take your (parent's) land. Better go lecture her on archaic software and imaginary practice law.

Hey ricky, what did you do when you got your license?

It's not just a certificate, it's a license... a certificate says you're able to do something, like say tying your own shoes, but a license says you're allowed to do something according to the law, like say designing buildings that will get built according to your instructions.

Ricky, I got a 17% raise upon being licensed. The fine print is I approached the office well in advanced and adjusted tasks to suit PM and PA roles so that I was contributing according to my billable rate by the time I had my license. Funny thing is, I had less than 4y in. What have you done recently? Oh right, nothing.

Ricky, it would definitively be a big change instantly if YOU got a license because if would actually signify that you really did do something. You would move from faking to being in an instant.

Ricky, you think your "points" are clever nuggets of golden knowledge. They are not. They are just bland uncooked discount supermarket frozen chicken nuggets. Think about it, had you made the slightest effort all these past years (decades?), you'd actually have something to show off. Now excuse me while I go design something that will actually be built.

Rick, the license tested technical knowledge. So studying technical knowledge for 2 hrs a day for over a year definitely gives a bump over someone drafting redlines and slowly learning minutia based on the projects they are working on.

"IF" being a rather generous word there Ricky.

Ricky, it's not age that's the problem here.

The point of the licensing exam is just to test that you have the bare minimum knowledge to be able to function independently as an architect. Some people do have that same knowledge without a license - but some people just think and/or represent that they have that knowledge. How is an employer, client, authority having jurisdiction, or anybody else supposed to sort out the actually-qualified people from those who over-estimate their knowledge? By requiring a license! That's the whole point.

Rick has always been one of those "I could get a license, if I wanted to, but I don't want to or the rules won't let me or I'm too busy focusing right now on developing games for a computer from the 80s" kind of person. As long as he doesn't take the test he can continue to tell himself that he could pass it. If he takes it he might find out he doesn't know as much as he thinks.

About 20 years ago I worked with a know-it-all guy who kept claiming that he knew everything an architect needs to know, and didn't need a test to prove it. This was the type of guy who would have a conversation with you while furtively, frantically googling as he talked, because he didn't know what half the terms you were using meant, but would never want to be caught -gasp- actually asking a questions.  When our boss said he would never promote him to a management position unless he got a license, he finally (at age 54) took the exam. And he failed a couple parts. Cue the excuses, blaming a conspiracy of the AIA and his ex-wife, and general wailing. Back then you had to wait 6 months to take it again, so he waited, and took it again - and failed the same sections again, and had another tantrum. And again. And again... until eventually he also gave up, and also used the "too old" excuse.  He was an example of somebody who thought they knew more than they did. He could have shown a little humility and actually asked some questions over the course of his career, and learned some things.  But he didn't, because he thought he already knew it. That's what a license is for - to protect the public from the people who think they know the minimum, but don't.

Ricky, from the nonsense you continuously post here, no-one believes you've spent any quality time studying / learning anything or worth on architecture. Stop lying to yourself.

"At this point, spending another 5+ years in college is not exactly the best use of time." 

You were posting on this site 10 years ago with a different excuse. It doesn't matter to me what you do, but at a certain point you gotta admit that your own personal choices - at least in some part - put you in the situation you're now in.

It might not be a good use of your time if you were really going to do something better with those years instead. But your history would suggest that you won't.

Weren't you within a year of getting a BA? That would mean 4 years total to an M.Arch, which would not put you all that far into the "old" end of the spectrum of M.Arch grads. That 4 years would be better spent than 4 more years of what you did this year. As for people treating you like you know absolutely nothing: I haven't seen a lot of that in firms. Typically entry-level professionals are treated as entry-level professionals - meaning they are assumed to know quite a lot, but also assumed not to know quite a lot. They're not treated in a demeaning way - they're treated as people who can do a lot, and are still learning a lot.

You have so many fears about getting a job that it keeps you from doing anything toward getting a job. It's unfortunate because if you'd just relax and take your own advice about humbling yourself to what you don't know, you might learn some things, while also making some colleagues, friends, and money. 4 more years of hanging out on the internet in your parents' house is just going to lead to 4 more years of hanging out on the internet in your parents' house - and that's not a better use of time than at least finishing your BA.

It was 20 years ago and we were using ArchiCAD (which was already BIM more than a decade before Revit came into wide use.) There was pretty much the same quantity and assortment of software expectations then as now. And software isn't really relevant to the point at all of course.

^terrible excuse, as always, Ricky.

You just oscillate between these two imaginary careers, always using the other as an excuse. It was just about a year and a half ago that you wrote "I'm not interested in pursuing video game development work unless the price is right for the work necessary for it to make sense... It's not a valuable use of time by any means. CPBD certification is more valuable use of time..." And next time somebody - whether on this forum or a software forum - asks about your progress on this latest software project, you're going to be back to telling them that you're focusing on CPBD certification because software is a waste of time.

Shut it down, this isn't going to go anywhere.

Also Tilt5 smells like a scam: just another company set up with the real purpose of reeling in investors, then deliberately bankrupting itself - so that its founders (newly reincorporated as something else) can then buy this current company's assets at auction for pennies on the dollar, effectively walking away free with everything of tangible value that came out of its investors' money. I give it 3 years tops before it pulls that. I hope you're not investing.

ThreeSleeve, if anything, hopefully Ricky's parents have not invested in this. Ricky has no money of his own.

Can we get back to where Rick thinks it takes 10+ different software/suites just to draw plans?

Witty, perhaps Ricky meant 10+ commands. It's not a stretch to think that knowing 10+ different buttons is a tall task for him.

I can't shake the mental image of someone spending money "whimsically"

Are you saying that the people involved with this company have really already done that before? I was just basing my comments on the look of the site, it's name, and on some wording that all screams "scammy" - a walk-away in the making. If you actually know the people involved, and know that they have in fact done exactly that in the past, then all the more reason to run screaming from this! ...unless maybe you can make some kind of deal with them right now to be in on any distribution of the auctioned assets when that happens with their latest scam!

You know, you might be right that you're too old to go back to college and rack up more debt, and building design isn't going anyplace for you - but neither is wasting years developing software for companies that don't even intend to ever release anything. You need a new career. There are lots of things that pay fairly well and only need a certification - how about ultrasound or xray technician?

 waiting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spo1jK4CCEU

Using 10+ pieces of software for plans is ridiculous. We only use 7 programs to do our plans.

FormZ, Balkins dropping references like it’s 2003. Funny how you think schools focus on teaching software. They don’t, students can and will learn whatever they want to get their design ideas down. You’re so far gone...

And you know this because you are what? Involved in academia? Even if what you sore is true, it’s not, learning software is dirt simple as they are all very similar from a studio use point of view. Not a hurdle at all.

It’s always funny to see the guy who hasn’t been to architecture school lecturing the people who have about the content of architecture school. I had one class that outright required a specific piece of software, construction estimating, and the software was provided by the school. One digital visualization class taught Photoshop but it wasn’t actually required if you wanted to use something. The only other rules regarding software were prohibitions on using software.

Yeah, there was no required software when I was in architecture school, and there are none where I teach either - unless you count Word (or whatever other word-processing application one uses to write their papers), and a little Excel in the project management and pro-prac sequence. I would think anybody in architecture school these days would have that level of software competence by middle school at the most. 

Where I teach there are no "you must use this" software requirements in any studio or core courses - how to do the work is up to the student, and they use all sorts of applications, or not. You can of course take some electives that focus mainly on software - though my philosophy is that's not the best use of your time in an academic setting. There are some short no-credit optional workshops that go over basics of various software, that are held during breaks or right before the semester starts - and lots of students take advantage of those. Reports are that those little three-day or week-long crash courses provide more than enough of the basics for students to get jobs in firms that want familiarity with those applications.

Moving expenses??? For architecture school??? You live with your parents - it's not as if you own heirloom furniture you couldn't leave with them, or need to relocate 3 kids and a piano. Even if you moved across the country your "moving expenses" could be a few big Fedex boxes - if even that. Sheesh. When I went to grad school I took everything I needed on the train in one duffel bag and one backpack. I had sold and donated everything else before I left. I bought a futon and a used desk and chair when I got there, and whatever else I needed as time went on - which wasn't much since I was rarely home anyway. You are just the endless fountain of tenuously related excuses, aren't you?

As for the course you linked to:  it's a survey-level class with a smattering of a bunch of software - basically a tasting buffet.  It's not like mastery is expected.  Is that what's scaring you out of architecture school?  Software?  You're a very, very fearful little guy.

Counting the same elective twice as evidence of a burden. That’s golden.

You're the one who brought up moving - because you didn't want to have to learn a lot of applications, and you were saying that all the architecture schools near you require that. I don't care if you move, or go to architecture school at all.

Architecture school got a lot easier/better when I committed to a good 8 hours of sleep per night.

Again, Ricky shows us why he's made no significant process with his life.

That's a start... but try not to set the bar so low you won't even notice if you clear it.

^basically the reaction everyone has to each of your posts.

You're a real moving target Rick. First it takes 10+ pieces of software "just to make the plans" and now you're rattling off rendering and publishing software. It's one excuse after another why you're the victim that can't possibly be bothered putting in the same effort as everyone else here but you're also the ultimate authority on the academic program you have not completed and the industry you have no real experience in. In addition to leaving your parents house and getting some actual (life) experience you could use a little humility.

Funny I went to UO and didn't have to learn a single program I didn't already know.

8 full-time years (allegedly) with nothing to show for it. Classic Balkarino.

I didn't learn a single program at MIT that I needed to use at UO.

For the record.. 

I picked up AutoCAD in high school. Also Photoshop. From that I was able to extrapolate to the rest of the Adobe Suite pretty nimbly. 

I did most of my undergrad work manually, with some illustrator graphics where hand drawings wouldn't do. 

After undergrad I worked at an office that used ArchiCAD. Took me about 4 days to get the basics and the next 6 months to get really proficient. 

I didn't really get into SketchUp until 2010, but that was a real straightforward one. 

100% of my graduate work was done in Sketchup, ArchiCAD, and Adobe.

After grad school I worked at my first Revit-based office. Again it took about 2 weeks to wrap my head around it (while on the job, receiving a paycheck). 

Since then I really haven't had to learn anything "new", just honing skills within this primarily Autodesk / Adobe based universe. If you can dick around for half a lifetime on "personal" programming projects, you could easily have done what I did by the age of 25.

And the important point remains that if you have "~8 FULL-TIME YEARS worth of college" you should have been able to build something on that foundation. 

I literally don't care what you do with your life but at some point you need to accept that your failures are your own. Nothing wrong with those failures, but everything wrong with refusing to acknowledge them and lashing out at an imaginary world you've constructed to insulate yourself from accountability. Sorry if that's harsh, but it's painful to watch you do this to yourself (and everyone around you)

Oh software history? 

 Let's see where I stack up. Left highschool knowing the basic word doc suit, C++, HTML, Visual Basic. Learned B&W 35mm film processing/photography and photoshop in conjunction with manual drafting/sketching first year of arch school. 

6 out of 7 studio work was hand drawn with basswood models and while FormZ was taught in 2nd year separate from studio, I decided to take autoCAD (2000) in a community college over the summer in addition to working 2 jobs. I did not use CAD in studio until my very last semester however, it did get me a job in an office, which I kept while I finished 3rd and 4th year. 

Rounded out undergrad with sketchup 4 and archicad. I then taught myself Rhino and the remainder of the CS suite in the first few weeks of grad school and did not use Revit until my current office paid for one week of training. Now I'm in charge of training staff in BIM and CS. 

Learning curve is pretty short but I never had any of my school work suffer because of a software learning hurdle. Software is not difficult relative to design.  You're in school to think not learn to push buttons and any remotely intelligent person can figure out any of the top 5 drafting / BIM softwares by themselves. 

Unequivocally false. Not sure why you feel the need to explain high school curriculum or why you think "Workshop class" (whatever that is) is segregated by gender.

Ricky, if you’re actually our equal and a real building designer who designs buildings, then shouldn’t you already know the software required to develop a true set of drawings? Wouldn’t you be a step ahead of others in class?

Ricky, how many buildings have you worked on today?

I have Rick on Ignore so not sure exactly what he's spouting, but he's written before about being pulled out of school by his parents in the 6th grade. He doesn't have any more knowledge of high school curriculum than of architecture school. I think that history of not being properly socialized in his adolescence is what accounts for his stubborn, sullen, spiteful interactions staying permanently on the level of a 12 year old for the 15+ years he's been plaguing architecture forums.

my 17 year old would kick your ass in autocad and sketchup any friday afternoon. and my now 23 yr old did robotics and solar powered rc cars in high school. richard, you should know when to shut the fuck up.

now, how many can you list where you've actually had to use in a real professional setting aka where someone (a client maybe) is paying you?

The secret to deviled eggs is to use a pressure cooker, because they’re less difficult to peel when you prepare them that way and they come out shinier. If you use a steamer basket you can fit three eggs at a time in a single layer. If the eggs are too hot then they don’t peel well and they have green rings and rubbery whites, and you might get dusty looking yolks. If you cook them at low pressure for 12 minutes and then pour a cup of cold water over them there won’t be any of those problems. Mix something acidic in with your mayonnaise, like leftover pickle juice, and mix that up in a blender with the yolks.

This is a bizarre line of argument in which Rick is bragging about having mastered many programs and languages on his own while arguing that we can't possibly know how to use any programs or languages without years of professional, college level courses.

I can only conclude you're deliberately missing the point. No one is this dense.

He said I only knew software because I learned it in undergrad. I listed my background to demonstrate how this was incorrect. In response, he... listed the software he knows.

Maybe it's a defense mechanism.

Go learn Revit.

By "defense mechanism", I was referring to your uncanny ability to dodge the point and respond at length to irrelevant minutia, which... wow you couldn't have responded more appropriately in this case.

omg stop, please.

.

Does nobody care about my poor inbox?

You still get emails from this site? I'm so sorry.

I still get reply notifications. At least gmail nests them by thread. I think it was 18? Sgesss.

Ricko, the overall point remains that you've been making excuses about your lack of advancement for longer than it would have taken you to just put your head down and advance. That, plus your tendency to condescend about things you only know from observation to people who have decades of lived experience is, well, obnoxious.

I get a daily digest and it goes into my spam folder. I don't remember how I set that up but it helped.

It’s hockey and family time anyways.

"You probably had to gain more proficiency with AutoCad and Adobe while you were at MIT to do the classwork and studio projects... right?" 

I gained proficiency by doing the studio work, not in order to do it. That's what school exists for.

I know you thrive in this "forum" environment; too bad you can't show anything for real.

Turns out this is also good advice for what to do after reading this thread.

yes, richard, you die with nothing, you can't take those billions to the other side.

Damn you.

Jesus christ I missed this dumpster fire before you bumped it ...

It's still going.

I have no self control. I'm sorry y'all.

Threads like this one are good decoys. It keeps Ricky busy in this well defined corner until he piles up enough corpses to build a bridge and cross the dumpster fire flames. The trick is to keep the decoy alive long enough for other threads to grow without his involvement. Yes, I've just compared Sir. Ricky Baldachino to the white walker's army of the dead.

He didn't descend on this thread until after the OP had already gotten decent advice anyway, so it's an ok one for him to run with.

Hey now, you're not being fair to us dilettantes.

(Got a humanities degree; had more different jobs in my 20s than most people in their lives; didn't get into architecture until 30ish, with only technical college architectural technology, still managed to get licensed and become a principal architect.)

Paid off within 5 years (pro tip, I lived at home for 2.5 years. Paid while I was getting to live for cheap. Didn’t squander the opportunity). I’ve paid off one car since, built a house, and am paying on that.