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The firs thing to do after being licensed?

165
G4tor

Scenario: after being licensed, what did you all do?

I'm somewhat at a crossroads. I don't know whether to 

1. Open up shop myself (which is daunting; obtaining client base, getting work and being sustainable. Starting from the ground up is TERRIFYING)

2. Stay at my current job (project manager atm) and demand a raise (which probably won't happen as my responsibilities won't change that much... if not, then should i go look? )

3. Search for a new job with my new fan-dangled license?

Thanks 

 
Apr 26, 19 1:36 am
archanonymous

Get a stamp (like an actual rubber stamp) and stamp all your books.

While you do this meditative activity, consider which of these you should do. Do you want to be a project manager, or do you want to design? Do you want to run a business? These are all much different. 

You should dip your toes first and take in some side work while you have a real job so you can decide if its for you - sound like it isn't.


I took on quite a bit of side work but realized I don't like the project acquisition, business and contract side of it - much prefer to let a firm find the work and give it to me to design, albeit within some of their constraints.

Apr 26, 19 9:37 am
( o Y o )

so what good is the license?

Apr 26, 19 9:47 am
randomised

Firs thing to do is spellcheck the titles of your threads on archinect :-P 

Congrats by the way!

Apr 26, 19 10:31 am
G4tor

I guess I didn't exercise my standard of care for that one... don't report me to the board.

randomised

I ain't no snitch ;)

JLC-1

only option 1 "requires" a license

Apr 26, 19 10:39 am

True, but it offers leverage for option 2, and opens up more opportunities for option 3.

jcarch

I disagree...you have the same skills/experiences on the day before you're licensed as you do the day after. So to a current/potential employer, you're not any more valuable (unless they need someone to stamp drawings, which is unlikely) with that license. The exception would be if a firm requires employees holding a certain title "project architect" to actually be licensed, but I don't know of any firms who would hold back a talented employee from filling that role even if they weren't licensed. They'd just call them "project designer."

Witty Banter

For the most part it's true that an employee's skillset really hasn't changed just by acquiring a license. That being said they hopefully did actually retain a few things they studied and are now at least slightly more knowledgeable. There are also many situations in which a firm sends out a proposal listing staff on a project including how many of them are licensed. That is an area where there can be a tangible benefit to the firm. Again not saying any of these are massive increases in value but there are some.

jcarch

True enough...and being licensed is a general indicator of competence and ability to achieve long term goals.

Formerlyunknown

Some additional reasons for why a license may matter to a firm, which aren't directly skill-related: 1. We work mostly on public projects in a Quality-Based Selection state. The rules dictate exactly which personnel/roles must be in the proposals, and the selection system is point-based, advantaging those with licenses and other certifications, so we'd be unlikely to assign a PM, JC, or lead designer who doesn't have a license.  That relegates unlicensed people to support roles, so caps advancement. 2. Our insurer doesn't allow some PM tasks - especially field observation - to be done by an unaccompanied unlicensed person. 3. An unlicensed person can't be designated "key personnel" for insurance purposes (in other words the firm can't have them insured with itself as beneficiary, which is typically done for high-level managers/directors/project architects.). 4. Unlicensed people can't own any % of the firm in some states, so if a firm is thinking about a hire as on a succession plan track, they may not want to count on someone unlicensed getting around to getting licensed.

I will agree that you have the same skill/experiences on the day before you're licensed as you do the day after ... but simplifying your progression within a firm or your ability to qualify for a position at another firm to this alone assumes that all firms are run as a pure meritocracy where your position is only based on your acquired skills and experiences. The reality is that progression within firms and even getting an interview at other firms may be predicated on the piece of paper saying you are licensed to practice architecture. The ability to stamp drawings is not the only thing a license gets you.

RickB-Astoria

Formerlyunknown, it depends on the insurance company. Not all are equal. Just a small point to be made. It really depends on the insurance company's insurance policies and terms. Other than that, I don't disagree with your main points you are making.

proximity

jcarch, isn't that kind of like saying that you have the same skills on the day you before you receive a diploma as you do the day after, so you don't deserve anything from getting a degree? i think the raise expected once you get your license isn't because an accumulation of skills over the course of 24hrs before and after literally officially becoming license but the path of work required to get there.

RickB-Astoria

Wouldn't you be getting raises and promotions from the time you got initial employment (after you got your degree) until you got licensed? The day before licensure, you are likely not being paid what you get with just the degree and zero experience. 

You would or should have got some increase in pay with increase in responsibility from entry level 'intern' to say an experienced Project Designer with say 3+ years experience compared to 0-1 year. Of course, if you got licensed very quickly after graduation, would that mean you have the same pay as someone with 20+ years of experience and is in the highest possible position you can get in a firm without a license or necessarily being a Principal / partner. Why would you with just merely attaining a license mean you must get a 2x or more pay increase? Perhaps.... IF your responsibility scope is commensurate. If you are not doing anything more than the day after as the day before, the pay should be only mildly increased. If you aren't the person of responsible charge over the project, then what is your effective scope of liability exposure? So maybe an increase to cover any liability insurance that you must have but your net pay won't really see a big difference but if your work scope increases responsibility then sure I can see the argument for it. 

I think most employers are likely to be reasonable and reward to a limited extent but they would also look towards increasing your responsibilities for the increase in pay. They have to look at their financial bottom line as well. It is usually modest and most decent employers would be paying raises commensurate with experience in some sort of step system aside from inflation adjustment.

Witty Banter

Rick, you waste a lot of time explaining what employers "should" be doing or what is "typical" in the industry despite having next to zero actual experience. Many employers only offer modest cost of living adjustment raises until certain milestones are hit. Licensure is often that milestone.

RickB-Astoria

How about when you move from Intern 0-1 year to Intern 2-3 year and then other positions in the architectural design staff with expanded responsibility. I've seen job posting for different levels of pre-licensure positions. If you have zero experience at graduation and then you move into new positions with a incrementally increased pay. From lowest level position which you may start to position that is basically the Project Architect's #2 (2nd in command) - to express it in a way. What I am talking about is not that uncommon. A good half of the medium to large size firms in nearly every moderately large to very large cities in this country. Not just Portland, Oregon or Seattle, Washington. Hell look at the job listings on this site. You probably aren't going to be stuck at the same exact job position role as you were when you first started working at the firm even after 5 or 10 years even without a license. Licenses may open open certain positions for further advancement at a firm but there usually isn't just one job position in a medium to large firm for unlicensed persons. There are different levels of positions between entry level to highest position you can get as an employee without a license. What I am saying is true and factual for most firms that employ. This is usually firms that are in the medium to large size. There are small firms but most of the time, they are made up of the core partners. Some employ but their ladder of positions are not as sophisticated so I get your point from that perspective but that's not where most people seeking their first job in architecture would or should be aiming for. Small firms generally hire people with a little more experience and near the completion of licensure. Now quit arguing with me on the facts. Even an observer will know how architecture firms hire and see the facts and be able to produce statistical data accurately if they are around long enough. 10 years? Easy. 15 years? Sure. In 10-15 years, its easy to see the common employment practices, the theme, and kinds of positions available at firms across the nation.

tduds

Get a job.

Witty Banter

Rick the more you type the more obvious it is you don't have a clue.

Threesleeve

Rick you're extrapolating internal office titles, promotions, and advancement from titles that are mostly only used in employment ads. When we advertise for outside hires, we need to define the role so that we get people who more or less fit the experience level we're looking for at that time. That's all those titles and parameters are for - to make job seekers understand what we've got in mind, and evaluate whether they more or less fit with that. Some of the job boards specifically require that we describe things this way, or even select the titles/years of experience from menus - so the titles are just the closest to what we're looking for, and not necessarily what we call those things in-house, or any indication of a formal system of progression from one job ad title to the next. These are descriptions for hiring purposes, and don't necessarily reflect any rigid adherence to those titles within the firm.

For instance, let's say you reply to an ad for an "Intern 1" fresh out of architecture school. Within the firm you're usually not going to be called an "Intern 1". You'll probably have a title that's more presentable when introducing you to clients - like "Designer" or "Technician". At your annual review nobody's going to say "now you are an Intern 2!" You basically stay "Designer" or "Technician", until you reach some threshold of perceived experience and/or credentials that bumps you to a new position. In a larger firm in particular, without a license the bumps can be small-ish - to things like "Job Captain" or "Assistant PM", even when you've got several years' experience - and they don't necessarily have set numbers of years attached, or raises.
Often a license is what can catapult you over a few of those levels - say straight from "Designer" to "Project Manager" - because it affirms that you have broad basic competence, and because it satisfies various marketing, insurance, and public procurement process requirements for who can be put in that position.

You need to GET A JOB IN A FIRM before your advice on anything related to working in a firm will be worth anything at all. There's absolutely no substitute for it. You can read all the job ads in the world and you still won't know anything about the profession.
If you've got no interest in working in architecture, then great - that's your prerogative and I doubt there are many here who are too invested in you becoming an architect. But if you've got no interest in that then why do you want to spend so much time posting about it? Do you do this with other professions you don't want to join? Is the limited time that you don't spend on this forum spent lecturing morticians and dairy farmers, based on what you've read on LinkedIn? What's the point of this for you?

RickB-Astoria

You are not complaining about what I have said but that I have said it. My response is go f--- yourself because I am going to say whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want and you will just have to listen or ignore me and I do not care if you like it or not so because I exercise my freedom of speech and expression however I wish and if you don't like it, go live with Kim Jong Un. That goes to all of you whiners. Get drunk, get laid, get f---ed. I don't care. I am not then, now, or ever will be subordinate to anyone especially not any of you. The more you rant and whine, the more I will do whatever it is to annoy you, piss you off, and all in entire spite. I don't obey commands of others just because they order it. I will tell them to f--- off. The same goes to you. Show me respect as an equal not subject to your commands or don't talk or write responses to me. It is that simple.

5839

You think you're being funny to bring home a point. But the point will be totally lost on him, because he very likely is lecturing morticians and farmers. And wedding photographers and corrections officers...

5839

The more you rant and whine, the more I will do whatever it is to annoy you, piss you off, and all in entire spite.

There you have it. What we've all suspected lo these many years.

RickB-Astoria

What have you learned?

tduds

"I am going to say whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want and you will just have to listen or ignore me and I do not care if you like it or not so because I exercise my freedom of speech and expression however I wish and if you don't like it, go live with Kim Jong Un." 

Okay but you're still wrong. 

Witty Banter

Rick, no one is "complaining" about what you have to say or that you said it. You are attempting to lecture a group of educated professionals on a)their profession and b)their education, despite knowing little to nothing about either. Now that Threesleeve laid out just how ignorant your previous post was your only rebuttal is "you're not the boss of me!" How about you get back to Ricksplaining (incorrectly of course) how job titles and promotions work in medium to large sized firms.

Formerlyunknown

Demanding to be treated as an equal immediately after admitting to participating here entirely out of spite is too immature and unintelligent to ever recover from.

Non Sequitur

Ricky, I don't think anyone here believes you're sincere about your "trolling" ways. Shsss, I hear the queen is outside looking to take your (parent's) land. Better go lecture her on archaic software and imaginary practice law.

RickB-Astoria

"Okay but you're still wrong"..... for speaking facts which YOU and everyone here already wrote, proven and made fact about it already for the past 10+ years. What I said, you and others in various ways have already said. So, unless you and all the others are wrong in the first place then that just says that architectural licensing is a big fat fraud because all that is claimed as fact is complete utter bullshit.

RickB-Astoria

"Demanding to be treated as an equal immediately after admitting to participating here entirely out of spite is too immature and unintelligent to ever recover from." 

Yeah, and that's the audience I am writing to. I write to the level of the audience which is you and others here whining because you are all immature and FUCKED BEYOND REPAIR.

eeayeeayo

When I got licensed I decided I was ok with staying put for awhile - and I stayed roughly 2 more years - because I asked myself:  Eeayeeayo:  when you were in the process of getting this license, were you doing it because it was the pre-req for some specific next step? For instance were you thinking something like "I really want to start my own firm immediately, but I need a license to do that", or "I'm underpaid for my role in this firm - if I had a license I'd be able to make a better case for a raise" or "I'm unhappy in my current job and need a license before I start a job search, in order to be competitive for next-level positions"?  And in my case my answer to myself was no to all of these: I hadn't been desperately chomping at the bit to start my own firm right away, and I did not dislike my job nor estimate myself to be underpaid.  The reason I got licensed at that time was that it had been a long-term professional goal. That meant there were no urgent next steps.

Your questions lead me to think you're in a similar situation.  If you felt strongly pulled to start a firm right now you'd have more of the bravado that comes with that, and be more willing to jump right now into all the scariness you listed.   Do you dislike your current job?  Then yes, start looking for new opportunities.  Would you be asking for a raise because you're underpaid? Then yes, ask.  Or would you be asking just because you think you're supposed to when you get licensed?  Well then ask anyway - and if you get a raise then great!  If you don't then you're likely to feel less satisfied with that job than you currently do, which might make the answer about moving on clearer...

Approach it like a flow chart:  If this, then that.  Do I like my job?  If yes, do this.  If no, do that.  If I hate my job, can't pay my rent, or have unquenchable entrepreneurial spirit, then do this/that right NOW!  If not then maybe not now.

Apr 26, 19 10:45 am

Congrats!

Good advice from eeayeeayo above. Ultimately what you do with your license comes down to the reasons why you ended up getting it. I think for the vast majority of us it is to show basic competence in the profession while unlocking future potential. There's nothing wrong with sitting tight for a little bit simply continuing with what you had prior to licensure if you're happy with it. If you're unhappy, then ask if the license unlocked any possible pathways for you to become happier. 

Apr 26, 19 11:21 am
RickB-Astoria

G4tor, 

I wouldn't recommend starting an architectural practice by yourself. Even as a building designer, it is not easy and quite often frustrating as all hell. You would have to be committed and I mean seriously committed to investing a lot more than just a full time work schedule. At least in the beginning. 

I don't sense you are emotionally driven and committed for that yet based on your original post. eeayeeayo and Everday Architect has some good advice. I do admit, I didn't read everyone's replies. I recommend that you also have some money (as well as your partners if you decide to start a firm someday) has saved up some money to suffice personal and firm expenses for the first 6 months to a year. Things can be slow before it gets really rolling. There are plenty more advice out there for starting a successful firm but having a nest egg of money is a good place to work on before starting. If there are signs the market bubble is about to pop.... wait before sinking money into a firm when you will likely need it to survive. 


Apr 27, 19 3:37 am
shellarchitect

Congratulations!!!  Certainly a huge accomplishment.  


One of my pet peeves is when I hear or see people saying that there is no benefit to being licensed.  You might not get a huge raise tomorrow, but you will notice that clients, co-workers, and potential employers will view you much differently.  In time this will equate to significantly better opportunities and pay.  



Apr 28, 19 11:18 am
archi_dude

oh geez leave it to the architecture profession to say that their license doesn’t mean you are anymore experienced than the day before you got it so no raise. First off, don’t listen to that. Trust me the firm owners are very excited to be able to go after jobs and put on the RFP that there is an additional architect on the team. They used the same excuse for me and yet I came across my billing rate which jumped from $90/hr to $120, oh no value to the firm eh??? Also though, studying for those exams actually allowed me to step back and learn broad picture stuff left out of day to day learning from experience in contracts, the profession, how the industry works to structural elements, MEP, code and egress. Granted I way over studied for these exams so my experience might be different but that studying helps me in my new role on the construction side where the rubber meets the pavement and you directly deal with people who’ve “been doing it for 30 years.” Lastly, I had wanted to switch to the owners or construction side for years and I didn’t make any progress until post license. It makes a big difference when you apply as an architect vs. a drafter or designer. 

Apr 28, 19 8:18 pm
RickB-Astoria

How does obtaining a certificate after taking a group of exam tests make you meaningfully more experienced than you were the day before getting the certificate? This point is true with absolutely ALL occupations. Experience comes from practice not exam test taking. There is two two natural things..... learning the theories.... the what, why, and the theory of how. Then the other is experience which comes from applying what you learned (theory) in real situations that have unique and distinctive attributes that differs from your settings of the theory examples. Then you learn from what worked and didn't work. This is the more "intrinsic" learning vs the extrinsic learning of the theories you get exposed to in school. When scientists explores new areas of science, they have the foundation of the book learning of what others learned and now its their time to learn new and begin to explore and understand something new. In your case, not all that different, really. Opportunities opens up after licensure. I accept that. The day you receive the license certificate is not the time to get big headed and think you can design a tower to geosynchronous satellite. What you may get is new opportunities to learn more and experience new challenges. That is a different thing by the way.

Non Sequitur

Hey ricky, what did you do when you got your license?

RickB-Astoria

Pay is something that is based on the role and what the duties are and promotion & pay raises should be expected but don't expect super huge jump in pay raise and don't expect them within the next day or next pay period. It might be after 6 months of experience and increasing role and the growth that a pay raise comes as a reward not a preward.

randomised

It's not just a certificate, it's a license... a certificate says you're able to do something, like say tying your own shoes, but a license says you're allowed to do something according to the law, like say designing buildings that will get built according to your instructions.

Non Sequitur

Ricky, I got a 17% raise upon being licensed. The fine print is I approached the office well in advanced and adjusted tasks to suit PM and PA roles so that I was contributing according to my billable rate by the time I had my license. Funny thing is, I had less than 4y in. What have you done recently? Oh right, nothing.

RickB-Astoria

I'm not claiming I have a license but I've observed several hundred people over the past decade reach licensure. Experience comes from the work you do... not the exam. The principle goal is you are ready for beginning to practice as a licensed architect BEFORE you start testing. You won't necessarily be more experienced by the test but by the experience you get from working even while you are testing. Put it in other words, licensing process is in a way... a certification process. Am I meaningfully more experienced the day I get an NCBDC certification certificate than the day before? No. Would it provide me opportunities than I would without it. Maybe. Licensing likewise may provide or open up more opportunities but it is an opening to new challenges that increased responsibilities will provide but you have to get those experiences but not all employers will give that opportunity right away. Some will. Some won't. Some would when they are able. There isn't a lot of time in 24 earthly hours to gain significant amount of experience so lets try to be realistic though. We get new opportunities for more experiences but it doesn't mean you got it on the day, minute, and second you get the certificate. It isn't like you get all that by plugging that certificate to a jack in your neck or something. It's not just suddenly downloaded in seconds and now you are suddenly have the knowledge and experience of the lifetimes of 1000 architects. Sorry, it don't work like it might in the Matrix movies. That is my argument. It is no different than any other occupation (even if all occupations required some sort of licensure).

Non Sequitur

Ricky, it would definitively be a big change instantly if YOU got a license because if would actually signify that you really did do something. You would move from faking to being in an instant.

RickB-Astoria

"It's not just a certificate, it's a license... a certificate says you're able to do something, like say tying your own shoes, but a license says you're allowed to do something according to the law, like say designing buildings that will get built according to your instructions." The certificate is the paper you receive. The certification is the status. Licensure is a certification but by government agency. By obtaining the certification as an Architect (commonly called an architect license), it says you are qualified and able to do practice of architecture as defined by law. I do agree with you that it is more than merely certifying when you are rewarded with certain opportunities by the statutes BUT those would be outside the context of the point I was getting at. What rewards or opportunities opens up may certainly be different between an NCBDC certification and an Architect license. That's not what I was arguing about. YOUR actual knowledge and experience doesn't suddenly increase the very day after licensure than the very day prior. The certificate is a physical representation of the opportunities that opens up to you going forward. Are you getting the point I am getting at? I am not suggesting or intending to say a license is JUST nothing but a certificate or certification. It is one of its aspects. It's a legal status but that doesn't mean you are really ready to design skyscrapers. Humble yourself with real self-assessment of where you are at. You are either already there because of learning and experience opportunities prior to licensure that gives you the knowledge and skills. The License is a key to unlocking some opportunities for you that is otherwise is locked by law. You can think of it as a key to a door but you need the real world pre-requisites as well or it is totally meaningless. This is why you still have to exercise self-constraints to not do stuff you are not qualified to do by knowledge and experience despite the license. It is a trap some architects do step into from time to time and some do get reported to the licensing authorities.

RickB-Astoria

"Ricky, I got a 17% raise upon being licensed. The fine print is I approached the office well in advanced and adjusted tasks to suit PM and PA roles so that I was contributing according to my billable rate by the time I had my license. Funny thing is, I had less than 4y in. What have you done recently? Oh right, nothing." 

However, you proved my point. You already gained the pre-requisite real world knowledge and skills for such tasks so you actually attained them for readiness in those roles prior to the licensure. Point is, you are proving my essential point. My point is don't expect it. You did what you needed to do so when you did get license, the firm would be comfortable giving such a raise upon licensure. It isn't a guarantee you would but you prepared BEFORE the license was attained. Some people just aren't there when they get their license. This is true and you know it from the countless accounts on this forum over the past decade alone.

Non Sequitur

Ricky, you think your "points" are clever nuggets of golden knowledge. They are not. They are just bland uncooked discount supermarket frozen chicken nuggets. Think about it, had you made the slightest effort all these past years (decades?), you'd actually have something to show off. Now excuse me while I go design something that will actually be built.

archi_dude

Rick, the license tested technical knowledge. So studying technical knowledge for 2 hrs a day for over a year definitely gives a bump over someone drafting redlines and slowly learning minutia based on the projects they are working on.

RickB-Astoria

"Ricky, it would definitively be a big change instantly if YOU got a license because if would actually signify that you really did do something. You would move from faking to being in an instant." realistically... no. Cognitively, sure. My point isn't about judging the worth of NCBDC certification against Architect licensure but in either case, you should know what you are doing and have readiness for beginning the journey of opportunities that opens up to you. This readiness happens BEFORE. When do you prepare for a disaster? Before a disaster or when you are neck deep in one?

RickB-Astoria

You should be ready for the challenges that opportunities presents you before you seize on it. Does this mean you should be ready to design a skyscraper yet. No. You should be ready to design smaller to medium scale projects that requires a license. My point is don't let the obtaining a license lead to making you think you are ready to design the largest & tallest building on the planet. If I got licensed, I would likely start on projects just past the exempt area or in areas I feel comfortable designing on my own because of competency.

Non Sequitur

"IF" being a rather generous word there Ricky.

RickB-Astoria

"Rick, the license tested technical knowledge. So studying technical knowledge for 2 hrs a day for over a year definitely gives a bump over someone drafting redlines and slowly learning minutia based on the projects they are working on." Shouldn't you have already learned that in architecture school?

RickB-Astoria

""IF" being a rather generous word there Ricky." Am I pursuing licensure at this time? I'm too old to pursue that now.

Non Sequitur

Ricky, it's not age that's the problem here.

Threesleeve

The point of the licensing exam is just to test that you have the bare minimum knowledge to be able to function independently as an architect. Some people do have that same knowledge without a license - but some people just think and/or represent that they have that knowledge. How is an employer, client, authority having jurisdiction, or anybody else supposed to sort out the actually-qualified people from those who over-estimate their knowledge? By requiring a license! That's the whole point.

Rick has always been one of those "I could get a license, if I wanted to, but I don't want to or the rules won't let me or I'm too busy focusing right now on developing games for a computer from the 80s" kind of person. As long as he doesn't take the test he can continue to tell himself that he could pass it. If he takes it he might find out he doesn't know as much as he thinks.

About 20 years ago I worked with a know-it-all guy who kept claiming that he knew everything an architect needs to know, and didn't need a test to prove it. This was the type of guy who would have a conversation with you while furtively, frantically googling as he talked, because he didn't know what half the terms you were using meant, but would never want to be caught -gasp- actually asking a questions.  When our boss said he would never promote him to a management position unless he got a license, he finally (at age 54) took the exam. And he failed a couple parts. Cue the excuses, blaming a conspiracy of the AIA and his ex-wife, and general wailing. Back then you had to wait 6 months to take it again, so he waited, and took it again - and failed the same sections again, and had another tantrum. And again. And again... until eventually he also gave up, and also used the "too old" excuse.  He was an example of somebody who thought they knew more than they did. He could have shown a little humility and actually asked some questions over the course of his career, and learned some things.  But he didn't, because he thought he already knew it. That's what a license is for - to protect the public from the people who think they know the minimum, but don't.

RickB-Astoria

I am quite certain it is more than age but how old do you think I am.I am certain you can find out my age through some online sources. At this point, spending another 5+ years in college is not exactly the best use of time. So why would an architectural firm hire me? A question that I still contemplate. Am I "employee" material? Do I work well with being treated as "I know absolutely nothing" because I don't have an NAAB accredited degree? How many years of that am I going to put up with? Do I want to subject myself to that nonsense especially those whom I am nearly old enough to be their parent considering I have invested considerable amount of time studying architecture and related subjects?

Non Sequitur

Ricky, from the nonsense you continuously post here, no-one believes you've spent any quality time studying / learning anything or worth on architecture. Stop lying to yourself.

tduds

"At this point, spending another 5+ years in college is not exactly the best use of time." 

You were posting on this site 10 years ago with a different excuse. It doesn't matter to me what you do, but at a certain point you gotta admit that your own personal choices - at least in some part - put you in the situation you're now in.

Threesleeve

It might not be a good use of your time if you were really going to do something better with those years instead. But your history would suggest that you won't.

Weren't you within a year of getting a BA? That would mean 4 years total to an M.Arch, which would not put you all that far into the "old" end of the spectrum of M.Arch grads. That 4 years would be better spent than 4 more years of what you did this year. As for people treating you like you know absolutely nothing: I haven't seen a lot of that in firms. Typically entry-level professionals are treated as entry-level professionals - meaning they are assumed to know quite a lot, but also assumed not to know quite a lot. They're not treated in a demeaning way - they're treated as people who can do a lot, and are still learning a lot.

You have so many fears about getting a job that it keeps you from doing anything toward getting a job. It's unfortunate because if you'd just relax and take your own advice about humbling yourself to what you don't know, you might learn some things, while also making some colleagues, friends, and money. 4 more years of hanging out on the internet in your parents' house is just going to lead to 4 more years of hanging out on the internet in your parents' house - and that's not a better use of time than at least finishing your BA.

RickB-Astoria

Threesleeve, that was when? When you used either autocad or paper and pen/pencil to do stuff. Now we are expected to learn 10+ different computer software/suites just for making the plans let alone CAD and MS Office.

Over time,it does become harder to do that. There is also the going back to school and in debt again.


Threesleeve

It was 20 years ago and we were using ArchiCAD (which was already BIM more than a decade before Revit came into wide use.) There was pretty much the same quantity and assortment of software expectations then as now. And software isn't really relevant to the point at all of course.

Non Sequitur

^terrible excuse, as always, Ricky.

RickB-Astoria

The primary reason right now that licensure is not on my priority list is that I am currently working on a few software projects for PC/Linux and Android systems where the software supports Tilt5's platform http://www.tiltfive.com There is a lot of work involved which is partly why I am not currently focusing on building design projects.

Threesleeve

You just oscillate between these two imaginary careers, always using the other as an excuse. It was just about a year and a half ago that you wrote "I'm not interested in pursuing video game development work unless the price is right for the work necessary for it to make sense... It's not a valuable use of time by any means. CPBD certification is more valuable use of time..." And next time somebody - whether on this forum or a software forum - asks about your progress on this latest software project, you're going to be back to telling them that you're focusing on CPBD certification because software is a waste of time.

tduds

Shut it down, this isn't going to go anywhere.

Threesleeve

Also Tilt5 smells like a scam: just another company set up with the real purpose of reeling in investors, then deliberately bankrupting itself - so that its founders (newly reincorporated as something else) can then buy this current company's assets at auction for pennies on the dollar, effectively walking away free with everything of tangible value that came out of its investors' money. I give it 3 years tops before it pulls that. I hope you're not investing.

Non Sequitur

ThreeSleeve, if anything, hopefully Ricky's parents have not invested in this. Ricky has no money of his own.

RickB-Astoria

Actually, there is progress on the software projects but I am not releasing screenshots yet and would be when its ready for crowd funding or otherwise pre-release marketing.

This is not exactly the venue for these projects.


RickB-Astoria

Threesleeve, I don't have capital in TiltFive and I have some money of my own although I don't use it whimsically. I know what you are alluding to but I do know more about what happened during castAR,Inc. that resulted in the and process for liquidating assets. In fact, you want chief engineer/founder involved to remain involved. In this case, she is critical for that hardware project.

Witty Banter

Can we get back to where Rick thinks it takes 10+ different software/suites just to draw plans?

Non Sequitur

Witty, perhaps Ricky meant 10+ commands. It's not a stretch to think that knowing 10+ different buttons is a tall task for him.

tduds

I can't shake the mental image of someone spending money "whimsically"

Threesleeve

Are you saying that the people involved with this company have really already done that before? I was just basing my comments on the look of the site, it's name, and on some wording that all screams "scammy" - a walk-away in the making. If you actually know the people involved, and know that they have in fact done exactly that in the past, then all the more reason to run screaming from this! ...unless maybe you can make some kind of deal with them right now to be in on any distribution of the auctioned assets when that happens with their latest scam!

You know, you might be right that you're too old to go back to college and rack up more debt, and building design isn't going anyplace for you - but neither is wasting years developing software for companies that don't even intend to ever release anything. You need a new career. There are lots of things that pay fairly well and only need a certification - how about ultrasound or xray technician?

RickB-Astoria

I'm assuming you did a little more research. Are you sure the projects are all solely for functional with the Tilt 5 projection based augmented reality system. There are other platforms I am also incorporating support for as well in at least one of the projects. That one is a very large project that is time consuming.

I do possess some knowledge on castAR, Inc. that I gathered under an non-disclosure agreement. Since some of it is gleaned from public knowledge or can be inferred from it and logic will tell some stuff about it. 1) castAR, Inc. closed partly because some of the employees put in place by Playground Global who was the major VC investor who decided to acquire a software company that was having problems. This hemmorage money quick. The founder of castAR, Inc. and co-founder of Tilt Five, Inc. was the engineer and during a good part of the development period she had to focus on that role so she couldn't exactly be running the day to day executive role. There are a number of issues. 

(pause)


 waiting

RickB-Astoria

Playground Global and some of the elements of the financial mishandling in castAR, Inc. is not a present issue at TiltFive, Inc. TiltFive, Inc. had to A) secure the rights to the intellectual property rights through the Acquisition for the benefit of creditors (ABC) process. This took months. Then there is securing some money for the hardware engineering and fine tuning for commercial release. This hardware development and refinement for consumer release will then lead to an initial release to developers and then to consumers. They have some of the software assets from castAR, Inc. Software development is mainly going to be from third-party software development. I get the pessimism. 

My projects are not entirely or solely limited to supporting Tilt 5's hardware project. It might not make sense to you what Tilt 5 means. Okay. I get it. I'm not all that excited with developing the same old shit for PC for the 100th time. Re-envisioned interactive table top game play in small groups and various non-gaming applications are interesting me around this technology. I'm working on my software projects much as I did 30 years ago, by the bootstrap and NO use of venture capitalists but I am considering the pros and cons crowd funding. By doing the work myself, I'm not sinking a lot of cost in human resources at this time. One of the smaller projects in the works is a a sort of "remake" of a game that I worked on for the Commodore 64 some years ago but re-imagined with type of video game play environment of Tilt Five's technology but can be adapted for supporting Oculus Rift and other similar technology platforms.

RickB-Astoria

I do invite people with an interest in TiltFive's projection based augmented reality to their Discord channel. That is also open invitation to people on this forum who wants to learn. I brought it up not really for inviting but while I am discussing it in part with things I am working on then why not invite so they can know more outside the context of the bantering. Okay.

RickB-Astoria

Witty Banter, you wrote: "Can we get back to where Rick thinks it takes 10+ different software/suites just to draw plans?" 

You should only have to use 0 and no more than 1. 

The schools requiring students to learn multiple programs to do the same thing when they use to use paper, pen and pencil and that's it other than a little elective choice for rendering such as water color. It is a lot easier to learn architecture back then without having to learn each and every software. A pen / pencil is 1000 times more intuitive than mouse and clicking icons. I can literally draw anything and any kind of building with a pen or pencil. I might not use computation scripts but so what. 

It starts getting to mind-fuckingly painful to keep track of each and every fad of software and sorry but the brain doesn't keep relearning as easily each time you have to retrain. Who uses FormZ these days? It was once was a fairly big thing and now.... hardly even talked about. Some come and go as a fad. Some are enduring. Yes FormZ still exists and still has a following among some.

Steeplechase

Using 10+ pieces of software for plans is ridiculous. We only use 7 programs to do our plans.

Non Sequitur

FormZ, Balkins dropping references like it’s 2003. Funny how you think schools focus on teaching software. They don’t, students can and will learn whatever they want to get their design ideas down. You’re so far gone...

RickB-Astoria

Some classes literally requires students to learn a specific program because that is the program the instructor is using to instruct and in turn expects students to use it to do the homework. Some classes are more flexible but architecture school isn't all studio. They compose of subject courses (many that are required courses) and read the syllabus and how much does it specifically specify a specific software for the course. Sure, the subject course might not be about the software yet you still have to use the particular software to specified for the homework which in turn means YOU have to learn the damn software in addition to the course's particular material.

For example: a course may require students to use Maya. Even though the course is not about Maya but yet, I have to learn it in addition to the course subject material as well as the Revit or Archicad or whatever CAD/BIM program that maybe used in others.

You should only have to use ZERO to ONE program not 2, 3, 5, 7, 10, or whatever. 

Non Sequitur

And you know this because you are what? Involved in academia? Even if what you sore is true, it’s not, learning software is dirt simple as they are all very similar from a studio use point of view. Not a hurdle at all.

Steeplechase

It’s always funny to see the guy who hasn’t been to architecture school lecturing the people who have about the content of architecture school. I had one class that outright required a specific piece of software, construction estimating, and the software was provided by the school. One digital visualization class taught Photoshop but it wasn’t actually required if you wanted to use something. The only other rules regarding software were prohibitions on using software.

5839

Yeah, there was no required software when I was in architecture school, and there are none where I teach either - unless you count Word (or whatever other word-processing application one uses to write their papers), and a little Excel in the project management and pro-prac sequence. I would think anybody in architecture school these days would have that level of software competence by middle school at the most. 

Where I teach there are no "you must use this" software requirements in any studio or core courses - how to do the work is up to the student, and they use all sorts of applications, or not. You can of course take some electives that focus mainly on software - though my philosophy is that's not the best use of your time in an academic setting. There are some short no-credit optional workshops that go over basics of various software, that are held during breaks or right before the semester starts - and lots of students take advantage of those. Reports are that those little three-day or week-long crash courses provide more than enough of the basics for students to get jobs in firms that want familiarity with those applications.

RickB-Astoria

https://cpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/blogs.uoregon.edu/dist/1/14616/files/2017/04/ARCH-222_S17-Syllabus_-1q46ft0.pdf - So what if the class provides a license or whatever for the software, you still have to learn it. So there is Photoshop, Illustrator, and In-Design. There's Rhino and VRay. That's 5 programs, right there. You have then Revit, Archicad, or Autocad as the main CAD program. Then there is: https://geo.uoregon.edu/courses/advanced-media-for-design-development-uo-arch-424524 which uses Solidworks and Softimage. Okay, what 8 now at least. There is also this one: https://pages.uoregon.edu/design/HTML/424out.html which means, now you have Pagespinner, Form Z, FZ Renderzone, Strata StudioPro. Since Photoshop was mentioned earlier in a previous class. 9+ programs for designing that you may have to learn. That one I think is old so lets assume the previous link so 8+ programs at the least. Ok, 8+ programs. Now, certainly, we would likely learn at least a couple of other programs in addition because if we would be getting a degree in Architecture and then a job, students would be needing to learn some of the programs like SketchUp and so forth as it would be for getting a job in the firms they want or seek. So, essentially, you'll be learning at least 10 or more programs for designing. Some of which are required for the specific courses and others you learn because it would be something you would be using to position yourself competitive with the types of programs employers are commonly requiring or expecting applicants to have strong competency in. That is of course in addition to knowing how to use Microsoft Office and so forth. There is 8+ programs in the list that would be expected to have meaningful level of competency so it would have to be learned to that level. That isn't something that is a half hour study a week thing for a few weeks. It is something that takes time to get the stuff down to a cognitive script.

RickB-Astoria

I point to colleges in my regional area obviously as that is where I would be applying to for an architecture degree. It makes little sense to assume I would be moving across country for a college degree unless I plan to live in the region and work there for a career or at least a starting part of my career. It is always possible that one moves around in their career but shouldn't we be moving around less than in the military where you move from base to base. If I wanted to live that military vagabond life, I would be in the military and I wouldn't be living in a house but invest in an RV / mobile home.

RickB-Astoria

YES, I do know not all architecture school programs are the same. However, I'm not exactly moving to the east coast like some of you are located or California entirely on my dime. At my age, its not like I'm going to be having parents to pay for the moving expense to a university 1000 to 2000+ miles away. I wouldn't be moving to the east coast unless I am A) offered employment with B) moving expense benefits and C) initial housing arrangement handled and housing benefits to cover. Universities don't do all that. My moving expenses will not be just just $20 to $50 in fuel expenses and renting a moving truck or whatever. It would be a much larger chunk of change. Enough said. It is really off topic anyway.

5839

Moving expenses??? For architecture school??? You live with your parents - it's not as if you own heirloom furniture you couldn't leave with them, or need to relocate 3 kids and a piano. Even if you moved across the country your "moving expenses" could be a few big Fedex boxes - if even that. Sheesh. When I went to grad school I took everything I needed on the train in one duffel bag and one backpack. I had sold and donated everything else before I left. I bought a futon and a used desk and chair when I got there, and whatever else I needed as time went on - which wasn't much since I was rarely home anyway. You are just the endless fountain of tenuously related excuses, aren't you?

As for the course you linked to:  it's a survey-level class with a smattering of a bunch of software - basically a tasting buffet.  It's not like mastery is expected.  Is that what's scaring you out of architecture school?  Software?  You're a very, very fearful little guy.

RickB-Astoria

Why would I move across country for architecture school? There's a few at least in the states of Oregon and Washington.

RickB-Astoria

So what's so grand about being a gypsy?

Steeplechase

Counting the same elective twice as evidence of a burden. That’s golden.

5839

You're the one who brought up moving - because you didn't want to have to learn a lot of applications, and you were saying that all the architecture schools near you require that. I don't care if you move, or go to architecture school at all.

RickB-Astoria

Anyway, there are architecture school is more oriented on the software and one has to learn them. Let me ask you this one, how many years are we until the housing market bubble pops again and there is another recession cycle in architecture? It goes back and forth through the boom / bust cycles.

Would I want to graduate from an M.Arch or whatever during a recession?

RickB-Astoria

5839, I brought up moving as that was a common suggestion over the years. I think you brought that up once at least. Yes, there were multiple suggestions on moving at varying extent of moving. Sure, I could make it through the learning of those software programs but its getting a lot harder to be constantly investing 80+ hours of week to college work and to also work a full-time job as needed to financially cover some of the cost of college to minimize the debt.

As for why would I want to go back to college for 4 more years and be at $100K plus debt (less if I worked fulltime)? Aren't we about to enter another recession in architecture in a few years?

RickB-Astoria

I'm not young enough anymore to be constantly being up from 6AM to 2AM to maybe 4AM in the morning 7 DAYS a week.

Steeplechase

Architecture school got a lot easier/better when I committed to a good 8 hours of sleep per night.

Non Sequitur

Again, Ricky shows us why he's made no significant process with his life.

RickB-Astoria

I don't disagree with you on that. If you have to work full-time to put some ~$15K towards academic cost, it's not easy to get those 8 hours a week job. Remember, I have to pay taxes on the work income in that situation so it wouldn't be all 100% of that amount earned can be put towards student cost of attendance. If I could keep the cost of attendance within reason, I can keep the loan amount after graduation within a reasonable level. This means I would be have less hours available to do that B+ level work for every class. Getting the 8 hours a sleep starts to get encroached upon because there is only 168 hours a week. 8 hours a day sleep usually requires about 9-10 hours window each day because you don't always be able to get to sleep instantly. When there is stuff on my mind about the work that's not done, it is really hard to get to sleep restfully and without using some medication to get you drousy and sleepy. I know that about myself at least. I'm not sure I would call it insomnia but it might be based on what I have read about it.

RickB-Astoria

To N.S., So being a gypsy is what you are suggesting as meaningful / significant process with life???

Non Sequitur

That's a start... but try not to set the bar so low you won't even notice if you clear it.

RickB-Astoria

.


Non Sequitur

^basically the reaction everyone has to each of your posts.

Witty Banter

You're a real moving target Rick. First it takes 10+ pieces of software "just to make the plans" and now you're rattling off rendering and publishing software. It's one excuse after another why you're the victim that can't possibly be bothered putting in the same effort as everyone else here but you're also the ultimate authority on the academic program you have not completed and the industry you have no real experience in. In addition to leaving your parents house and getting some actual (life) experience you could use a little humility.

RickB-Astoria

First off, You don't need to take the courses to be an expert on knowing what the courses requires. After all, every student and prospective student should know how to get and read this information BEFORE the class starts or even when the class has already started . Hell, UO has this board on the wall just outside the office for the architecture department where they post information about classes and their syllabus. Out of curiosity, I might have actually looked at that information and read it.

tduds

Funny I went to UO and didn't have to learn a single program I didn't already know.

RickB-Astoria

No, not really. It's because you learned those programs at MIT in your undergrad degree in architecture. You went there for your graduate degree. Really, it isn't the learning the software that's that big of a challenge. It is simply the going back to college at this stage for another 4 years after having already ~8 FULL-TIME YEARS worth of college.

Non Sequitur

8 full-time years (allegedly) with nothing to show for it. Classic Balkarino.

tduds

I didn't learn a single program at MIT that I needed to use at UO.

tduds

For the record.. 

I picked up AutoCAD in high school. Also Photoshop. From that I was able to extrapolate to the rest of the Adobe Suite pretty nimbly. 

I did most of my undergrad work manually, with some illustrator graphics where hand drawings wouldn't do. 

After undergrad I worked at an office that used ArchiCAD. Took me about 4 days to get the basics and the next 6 months to get really proficient. 

I didn't really get into SketchUp until 2010, but that was a real straightforward one. 

100% of my graduate work was done in Sketchup, ArchiCAD, and Adobe.

After grad school I worked at my first Revit-based office. Again it took about 2 weeks to wrap my head around it (while on the job, receiving a paycheck). 

Since then I really haven't had to learn anything "new", just honing skills within this primarily Autodesk / Adobe based universe. If you can dick around for half a lifetime on "personal" programming projects, you could easily have done what I did by the age of 25.

tduds

And the important point remains that if you have "~8 FULL-TIME YEARS worth of college" you should have been able to build something on that foundation. 

I literally don't care what you do with your life but at some point you need to accept that your failures are your own. Nothing wrong with those failures, but everything wrong with refusing to acknowledge them and lashing out at an imaginary world you've constructed to insulate yourself from accountability. Sorry if that's harsh, but it's painful to watch you do this to yourself (and everyone around you)

Non Sequitur

Oh software history? 

 Let's see where I stack up. Left highschool knowing the basic word doc suit, C++, HTML, Visual Basic. Learned B&W 35mm film processing/photography and photoshop in conjunction with manual drafting/sketching first year of arch school. 

6 out of 7 studio work was hand drawn with basswood models and while FormZ was taught in 2nd year separate from studio, I decided to take autoCAD (2000) in a community college over the summer in addition to working 2 jobs. I did not use CAD in studio until my very last semester however, it did get me a job in an office, which I kept while I finished 3rd and 4th year. 

Rounded out undergrad with sketchup 4 and archicad. I then taught myself Rhino and the remainder of the CS suite in the first few weeks of grad school and did not use Revit until my current office paid for one week of training. Now I'm in charge of training staff in BIM and CS. 

Learning curve is pretty short but I never had any of my school work suffer because of a software learning hurdle. Software is not difficult relative to design.  You're in school to think not learn to push buttons and any remotely intelligent person can figure out any of the top 5 drafting / BIM softwares by themselves. 

RickB-Astoria

High school CAD at a high school where you they may even teach autocad is not the level of CAD instruction you need to learn to produce building plan as would be in professional architecture/building design. You have to learn beyond high school level stuff. Yes, some high school students can take classes at a community college while at high school. Most high schools only teaches the Math/Algebra & maybe Calculus at high school, Writing/English, History (World/US), High school Geography (more naming places and a little bit in cultural if taught by someone who actually has college level geography as a major, and you then have P.E. class, Art / Music, and maybe as a male student, you get a little of Workshop class. You might get a little course in Computers which is basically the equivalent of CS101 and maybe in some schools you might get a little introduction into computer programming at a slower pace than colleges go through the material.

Witty Banter

Unequivocally false. Not sure why you feel the need to explain high school curriculum or why you think "Workshop class" (whatever that is) is segregated by gender.

Steeplechase

Ricky, if you’re actually our equal and a real building designer who designs buildings, then shouldn’t you already know the software required to develop a true set of drawings? Wouldn’t you be a step ahead of others in class?

Non Sequitur

Ricky, how many buildings have you worked on today?

kjdt

I have Rick on Ignore so not sure exactly what he's spouting, but he's written before about being pulled out of school by his parents in the 6th grade. He doesn't have any more knowledge of high school curriculum than of architecture school. I think that history of not being properly socialized in his adolescence is what accounts for his stubborn, sullen, spiteful interactions staying permanently on the level of a 12 year old for the 15+ years he's been plaguing architecture forums.

JLC-1

my 17 year old would kick your ass in autocad and sketchup any friday afternoon. and my now 23 yr old did robotics and solar powered rc cars in high school. richard, you should know when to shut the fuck up.

RickB-Astoria

My Software History off the top of my head: Koala Paint, Terminal Emulators & BBSs/computer networks, Microsoft Multiplan (C64 and MS-DOS), EasyCalc and a few others, Excel (and OpenOffice/LibreOffice equivalent), PowerPoint & open source clones, TI-99/4A's TI-BASIC and TI Assembler (TMS9900 Assembly Language), Logo (various versions for various platforms), Machine Language Monitor (various versions for the 65xx series microprocessor), Assembly language for 65xx series based microprocessors used in Apple II series, Atari 8-bit series, Nintendo Entertainment System and the SuperNES (65c816), as well as assembly language for software projects for IBM PC 8086/8088, 68000 series microprocessor used in the Macintosh, Atari ST and Amiga personal computers and Amiga based game console and the Sega Genesis which had a 68000 and a Z80 processor, Z80 processor for CP/M computers and the Commodore 128 which also had a Z80 for CP/M. Then there is GeoWrite for GEOS (on C64 & C128), Paperclip series of word processor software, Pagestream, GeoPublisher (GEOS), GeoPaint (paint program), XCad on Amiga, Lightwave and Caligari 24 on Amiga (3d modeling/rendering and animation), C/C++ programming, QBASIC & QuickBASIC, Visual Basic, Java, CGI script, PERL, PHP, HTML, etc., Autodesk Animator, DeluxePaint, various paint/pixel editor programs for C64, BBS sysop/administration, various computer networking software such as Novell and Windows NT networking, as well as other. DOS/Windows Batch scripts, AREXX (Amiga REXX), various software & hardware for preparing and genlocking Amiga graphics with TV/Film/etc., Access database and SQL database management software, various website languages and software tools, Unity & Unreal Game Engine, Lua, etc., photoshop various versions, GIMP, Adobe InDesign & FormZ, Autocad, Archicad, some free Autocad clones, Revit, SketchUp, Strata 3d, Scribus, web browsers (obviously), Print Shop, and hmmm.... there are probably a bunch of others that don't come to mind at the moment. Long story short, a f---ing shit load of software programs that I have learned and used over the years. Some of them, I consolidated because there is dozens of variations of assembly language programming tools for C64 alone like web browsers. It isn't just one program but various software programs from different companies that does the same thing in general.

Non Sequitur

now, how many can you list where you've actually had to use in a real professional setting aka where someone (a client maybe) is paying you?

RickB-Astoria

I built RC cars, airplanes and boats when I was 6 years old and robots and programming robots in the 1980s. Sure, you can use solar power to power the battery or motors. The problem is the cells would have to be quite big and the weight of the cells would in turn cause the motors to work harder and use more energy to move. Too much and you overwork the electric motor and its burns out. Remember, DC motors are brushed motors, generally at the time. You would either have to replace the brushes in the motor or replace the motors. Real RC-10 cars took a bit more power than that solar cell could charge. The draw rate would be in excess of a modest size solar cell that you can put on the RC car. Those photovoltaic cells were not that efficient even in southern California sunshine or even near the equator where the angle of incidence through the atmosphere to the surface is at the highest density of solar energy like if the sun was directly up above you. I know about that stuff and artificial intelligence.

5839

The secret to deviled eggs is to use a pressure cooker, because they’re less difficult to peel when you prepare them that way and they come out shinier. If you use a steamer basket you can fit three eggs at a time in a single layer. If the eggs are too hot then they don’t peel well and they have green rings and rubbery whites, and you might get dusty looking yolks. If you cook them at low pressure for 12 minutes and then pour a cup of cold water over them there won’t be any of those problems. Mix something acidic in with your mayonnaise, like leftover pickle juice, and mix that up in a blender with the yolks.

RickB-Astoria

In the software field I was making software products not doing one off custom software development services. I've done some website work but that isn't where my interest in software was in. The pay also sucks for the work involved. I've done it before but my main area in software was more product making model versus service consultant model of business. Making video games and such creative products were of more interest to me. While I may put x number of hours to produce the video game but then I would sell it at x $ per copy. If its interesting enough you can get a fair amount of $$$ from it.

tduds

This is a bizarre line of argument in which Rick is bragging about having mastered many programs and languages on his own while arguing that we can't possibly know how to use any programs or languages without years of professional, college level courses.

tduds

I can only conclude you're deliberately missing the point. No one is this dense.

tduds

He said I only knew software because I learned it in undergrad. I listed my background to demonstrate how this was incorrect. In response, he... listed the software he knows.

RickB-Astoria

"I have Rick on Ignore so not sure exactly what he's spouting, but he's written before about being pulled out of school by his parents in the 6th grade. He doesn't have any more knowledge of high school curriculum than of architecture school. I think that history of not being properly socialized in his adolescence is what accounts for his stubborn, sullen, spiteful interactions staying permanently on the level of a 12 year old for the 15+ years he's been plaguing architecture forums." 

 When I was pulled out of the middle school, it was 8th grade. 

tduds

Maybe it's a defense mechanism.

RickB-Astoria

"Unequivocally false. Not sure why you feel the need to explain high school curriculum or why you think "Workshop class" (whatever that is) is segregated by gender." Sure but it was that way significantly in the 1990s. P.E. classes were gender segregated as well. I guess that since it would be already a whole generation since I was at high school age, perhaps they desegregated more since then.

tduds

Go learn Revit.

RickB-Astoria

"Maybe it's a defense mechanism." 

tduds, when I was first taken out of Junior High, it was because we were moving and because of weather based delays bit didn't happen until summer yet I was put back into the school to finish the 8th grade while in California. Don't get it but ok. So, I technically had to restart the 8th grade which wasn't my own fault. I didn't have control on the matter. There was some issues with students that happens normally when moving so it would have worked itself out but my Dad who downright is an idiot unlike his father who was a metallurgical engineer for McDonnell Douglas. He, however, had some issue with the Principal of the middle school in Astoria and like usual go into a knee jerk reaction to everything. So he pulls me out of the school for home schooling. His decisions and reasoning still makes no rational sense to me. 

That's the past now. Despite that, I still got my GED, Associates degrees, certificate, etc. I haven't decided yet to return to UO to wrap up a bachelors degree. I don't plan to do that until I have set aside enough money to do that WITHOUT relying on student loans. That was fairly recently paid off already.


RickB-Astoria

"Go learn Revit." Incrementally, I have been studying it. However, getting it all ready and functionally efficient for residential work is a work in progress especially with historic buildings.

tduds

By "defense mechanism", I was referring to your uncanny ability to dodge the point and respond at length to irrelevant minutia, which... wow you couldn't have responded more appropriately in this case.

RickB-Astoria

"This is a bizarre line of argument in which Rick is bragging about having mastered many programs and languages on his own while arguing that we can't possibly know how to use any programs or languages without years of professional, college level courses." 

Teachers quite often tends to hold students back from going forward in their study so the slow students can catch up. In essence, the slow student(s) sets the pace of the class. You have to develop an autodidactic learning model pretty much from childhood to instill that discipline and self-driven drive to learn and study on your own. Most people will not and does not learn that because all they know how to learn is through a classroom environment with a teacher. I started learning to self-read and self-study early on before even pre-school. If you were instilled this, great but this is something that is quite rare and a minority of people in this world. It is just that a lot of teachers don't like students moving ahead of them instructing and teaching.

tduds

omg stop, please.

RickB-Astoria

"By "defense mechanism", I was referring to your uncanny ability to dodge the point and respond at length to irrelevant minutia, which... wow you couldn't have responded more appropriately in this case." Thanks for explaining what you meant because it is entirely impossible to know off hand what you mean. I'm not using psychic mind reading to know what someone means. In order to do that, we would have to be in proximity. You're what.... 100 miles from me in a highly populated area.

tduds

.

RickB-Astoria

"He said I only knew software because I learned it in undergrad. I listed my background to demonstrate how this was incorrect. In response, he... listed the software he knows." MIT.... school of technology would be promoting learning of software technology. Okay, fine. You began learning some of the stuff in high school. Only about 5% of high school have any CAD/BIM type program until the STEM movement over the past 10 years. For Astoria, you have to go to CCC to get CAD courses for the elective while in high school. 

 MIT does kind of have that reputation of technology to push technology.... like its in the name of the school.... literally. So, I'm sure they had encourage people to learn a range of software in the curriculum. Whether they say explicitly in the syllabus or not. 80-90% of students in any architecture programs barely computer literate. Most come into college like a clean slate with practically nothing in their education around architecture/CAD. Out of this forum, there is only a few regulars that comments but there is a vast majority that doesn't.

RickB-Astoria

You wrote:

"For the record.. 

I picked up AutoCAD in high school. Also Photoshop. From that I was able to extrapolate to the rest of the Adobe Suite pretty nimbly. 

I did most of my undergrad work manually, with some illustrator graphics where hand drawings wouldn't do. 

After undergrad I worked at an office that used ArchiCAD. Took me about 4 days to get the basics and the next 6 months to get really proficient. 

I didn't really get into SketchUp until 2010, but that was a real straightforward one. 

100% of my graduate work was done in Sketchup, ArchiCAD, and Adobe.

After grad school I worked at my first Revit-based office. Again it took about 2 weeks to wrap my head around it (while on the job, receiving a paycheck). 

Since then I really haven't had to learn anything "new", just honing skills within this primarily Autodesk / Adobe based universe. If you can dick around for half a lifetime on "personal" programming projects, you could easily have done what I did by the age of 25."

Okay then. You probably had to gain more proficiency with AutoCad and Adobe while you were at MIT to do the classwork and studio projects... right? Proficiency with Autocad to do architectural design and all will take a year or more even a college level. Okay. Since I am not exactly see the quality of your class work, I maybe over gauging the quality level and the inherent level of work you must put in and learning how to get the program to do what you want it to do quite the way you want it.

Non Sequitur

Does nobody care about my poor inbox?

tduds

You still get emails from this site? I'm so sorry.

Non Sequitur

I still get reply notifications. At least gmail nests them by thread. I think it was 18? Sgesss.

tduds

Ricko, the overall point remains that you've been making excuses about your lack of advancement for longer than it would have taken you to just put your head down and advance. That, plus your tendency to condescend about things you only know from observation to people who have decades of lived experience is, well, obnoxious.

RickB-Astoria

N.S., no not from me and now a thousand more in your inbox. Okay.... okay.... I'm teasin' ya there. You know what, we can table this banter for awhile.

tduds

I get a daily digest and it goes into my spam folder. I don't remember how I set that up but it helped.

Non Sequitur

It’s hockey and family time anyways.

tduds

"You probably had to gain more proficiency with AutoCad and Adobe while you were at MIT to do the classwork and studio projects... right?" 

I gained proficiency by doing the studio work, not in order to do it. That's what school exists for.

RickB-Astoria

tduds, congrats on just a picture up above. You do know that your reply "Maybe its a defense mechanism" shows up directly after my reply " When I was pulled out of the middle school, it was 8th grade." I'm also quoting what I am responding to. The context is present. The forum structure does sometimes obfuscate the context.

JLC-1

I know you thrive in this "forum" environment; too bad you can't show anything for real.

Steeplechase

So glad I work for a firm that highly values licensure. Promotion, raise and bonus are all standard.

Apr 28, 19 8:42 pm
tduds

The first thing I did was get good and drunk.

Congrats!

Apr 29, 19 11:21 am
tduds

Turns out this is also good advice for what to do after reading this thread.

tintt

The first thing you do is move out of mom's basement.

Apr 29, 19 6:43 pm
*your name

get high get laid get stamp get lost

Apr 29, 19 9:47 pm
RickB-Astoria

get dead with nothing but lent in your pocket except a debt collector's note?

JLC-1

yes, richard, you die with nothing, you can't take those billions to the other side.

randomised

Sorry for not letting sleeping dogs lie (it had <25 posts), thread was slowly creeping towards page nr. 2 and oblivion…

Apr 30, 19 6:25 am
5839

Damn you.

Bench

Jesus christ I missed this dumpster fire before you bumped it ...

Non Sequitur

It's still going.

tduds

I have no self control. I'm sorry y'all.

senjohnblutarsky

Ricky B:  the walking, talking embodiment of the dilettante.

Wouldn't it be cool for someone to get to post a thread here about their professional development without Rick turning it into his own personal pity party? 

Apr 30, 19 4:14 pm
Non Sequitur

Threads like this one are good decoys. It keeps Ricky busy in this well defined corner until he piles up enough corpses to build a bridge and cross the dumpster fire flames. The trick is to keep the decoy alive long enough for other threads to grow without his involvement. Yes, I've just compared Sir. Ricky Baldachino to the white walker's army of the dead.

5839

He didn't descend on this thread until after the OP had already gotten decent advice anyway, so it's an ok one for him to run with.

atelier nobody

Hey now, you're not being fair to us dilettantes.

(Got a humanities degree; had more different jobs in my 20s than most people in their lives; didn't get into architecture until 30ish, with only technical college architectural technology, still managed to get licensed and become a principal architect.)

RickB-Astoria

How's your student loans debt?

senjohnblutarsky

Paid off within 5 years (pro tip, I lived at home for 2.5 years. Paid while I was getting to live for cheap. Didn’t squander the opportunity). I’ve paid off one car since, built a house, and am paying on that.

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