NYS G105.3 Doors with direct access to the pool through that wall shall be equipped with an alarm which produces an audible warning when the door and/or its screen, if present, are opened. The alarm shall be listed in accordance with UL 2017. The audible alarm shall activate within 7 seconds and sound continuously for a minimum of 30 seconds after the door and/or its screen, if present, are opened and be capable of being heard throughout the house during normal household activities. The alarm shall automatically reset under all conditions. The alarm system shall be equipped with a manual means, such as touch pad or switch, to temporarily deactivate the alarm for a single opening. Deactivation shall last for not more than 15 seconds.
Aside from operating problems (try navigating two doors, both alarmed, either by more than one person or carrying something like your phone and a nice cold beverage) this code prohibits you from having an open door that leads to a pool. Period. If you have an alarmed screen in addition to a door, you still can't leave the door open because the alarm automatically resets. Let's not forget that the pool itself is also required to have a splash alarm.
Using the integrated security system to provide similar function is not allowed, ostensibly because it can be deprogrammed. As if nobody removes the cheap-shit battery-powered wall-mounted Poolguard units the nanosecond the C/O is received.
1) Sorry, Miles, you can't call stuff "retarded" anymore. It just isn't done. Go ahead and blame out-of-control political correctness if you want, but you'll still sound like a tool stuck in the past if you keep using the word.
2) You sure you're reading the code right? Sounds like you can just alarm the screen door. But I'm with you - if kids weren't such little retards, we wouldn't have to have buzz-killing alarms going off when we're trying to get our drink on by the pool. Codes just get in the way of natural selection.
You're a PC thought police fool. Nothing wrong with using the word retarded to described retarded building codes. People like you are become very unwelcome anywhere.
28
-
101.4.5 Work that increases existing floor surface area of a prior code building by more than 110 percent.
Notwithstanding
sections 28
-
101.4.3 and 28
-
102.4.3 or any other provision of this code that would authorize alterations of prior
code buildings in accordance with the 1968 building code or prior codes, where the proposed work at the completion of
construction will increa
se the amount of floor surface area of a prior code building by more than 110
percent
, over the amount of
existing
floor surface area, such entire building shall be made to comply with the provisions of this code as if it were a new
building hereafter erec
ted. See Section 28
-
105.2 for permits for such work.
increase by 110% means? I had probably a former employee of Dell's technical support, now turned code examiner, debate this with me. The responses I got were hilarious .............."This is not a zoning review"........."No,no, I know, but what does BY mean here? In addition to or full sum increase proportionally"..........."Sir you need to provide calculations.".................."Dude, I have turned off my Dell computer and unplugged the cord for Christ sake, answer my question."..............hows that for political correctness.
btw the examiners in nyc are all coached to respond a certain way based on current policy, its just funny it reminded me of a Dell technical support call. and normally you do NOT ask potentially philosophical questions in a review, save that shit for the commisioner.
What is the code afraid of? That the swimming pool will catch on fire and spread to the rest of the house? Has that been a major problem that I just haven't read about?
The nanny state would be just a source of laughter and merriment if it wasn't so expensive.
i think i've pretty much had that conversation before jla
'no mr. plans reviewer, the sharks are not included in the scope of this project. Sharks are shown for informational purposes only. FFE will be provided by tenant under separate contract"
The alarm isn't there to inconvenience you and your beer and plate of nachos. Its there to save lives, mostly the lives of children who may jump into a pool unattended by an adult.
The UL2017 alarm, if integrated into some other security alarm system would be fine. Don't blame the standard though, blame your security company who cant figure out how to integrate it.
BY 110% has to mean you've more than doubled the space, if the code is written in English and assumes actual math is used for the calculations. Whether or not you can convince a code reviewer of these "finer points" of the English language, who knows.
Reminds me of this old blog where Verizon didn't know the difference between .002 dollars and .002 cents:
The alarm isn't there to inconvenience you and your beer and plate of nachos. Its there to save lives, mostly the lives of children who may jump into a pool unattended by an adult.
To use this line of reasoning, you should put similar safeguards on all the exterior doors of the house to prevent a kiddie from running into the street.
How about a similar gate at the top of all stairs to prevent kids from running down the stairs and tripping without an adult around?
Ditto for all windows above the first floor.
Where does all this nannyism end? This is presumably a single family private home. Can't the owner/parent be presumed to exercise some responsible supervision of their children? If they have a pool, can't we assume it is for the kids, who presumably know how to swim?
Miles, based on your previous avatar, I still read what you write in the voice of Ricky from Trailer Park Boys. In that context, the faux pax didn't even register for me.
The pool is a much larger danger than the roads actually. Statistics prove this. Besides, people leave back doors open and you just push the screen door, then find your child at the bottom of the pool. The front door is usually much more solid, is usually or more often closed, and typically has a dead bolt on it. Yes, sure a two year old child could possibly reach up high enough to twist the dead bolt and maybe apply enough force to get that front door open, and maybe get to the front porch, out onto the grass, and if that far probably sits down. If any further, drivers see the child before rolling over them. So the front door argument is kind of pointless.
Windows actually have a code section for them as well in the 2006 IRC section 613 exception #2 which a guard complying with ASTM F 2006 or F 2090 This is usually a sash limiter device made of plastic which pops out from the side and keeps the window from opening more than 4 inches.
If architects such as the ones here would spend some time getting their continuing education requirements for Health, Safety and Wellfare, instead of for touring Frank LLoyd Wright homes, matching color fabric swatches and plumbing fixtures to suit tile patterns, I would be out of a job as a Plans examiner.
Also, there are other options for you besides the cheap UL2017 alarm for the door.
On the fence, I'll do continuing education if plans examiners actually look at the plans and don't give me a generic correction list where all I do is say "see sheet Ax.xx, see sheet Ax.xx" and babysit guide you through the project. But I guess your cushy government job is difficult right? All those days off hard to get anything done!
"If architects such as the ones here would spend some time getting their continuing education requirements for Health, Safety and Wellfare, instead of for touring Frank LLoyd Wright homes, matching color fabric swatches and plumbing fixtures to suit tile patterns, I would be out of a job as a Plans examiner."
Im not sure what the problem is...even if you leave the back door wide open how can the kids possibly escape their cages and then manage to breakdown the cellar door?
ha...plans examiner, that is when you know you have just given up - probably wear socks, sandals and sweatpants to work. When is your mountain dew break bro?
On the fence: You might be out of a job, but perhaps could find employment doing something a little more useful than enforcing the utterly ridiculous niggling regulations that are burdening anyone trying to do anything. It's a wonder how mankind has survived all these millennia without some bureaucrat supervising their every move.
Too funny Starchitect. I'm a licensed architect as well by the way. And I have seen some crappy plan reviews, crappy plan reviewers and crappy architects. I have a folder I keep called "The shit I have seen" for those special projects I want to use for a good laugh in my retirement, at 65 Probably because of my cushy government job but more likely because I put my time and money into a system that values me more. And there are days that are tough and difficult. I have to deal with a lot of people, all of whom think they are right and sometimes they are, but usually I am explaining tedious code sections that have been in place and unchanged for 20 plus years and still I have to correct them. I am doing this job because design professionals, contractors DIYers, homeowners, engineers etc think its beneath them to actually spend some time in reading up on health safety and wellfare, know what they are doing.
I have to cut this short right now, because I have to go talk to a contractor about providing me a floor plan for a detached garage he wants to build. My front office staff tells me he doesn't understand what I mean by a floor plan. He handed me an incomplete wall section only with notes like (2) LVL header. Very useful info.
"I am doing this job because design professionals, contractors DIYers, homeowners, engineers etc think its beneath them to actually spend some time in reading up on health safety and wellfare, know what they are doing."
slow clap......true hero.
might as well wipe your ass with your license - sellout.
Starchitect: When you only have to write a letter like the one you are describing, it's a good day. What I love(d) were the municipalities that required me to quote verbatim the applicable code section language, sometimes entire paragraphs, not only in the letter but on the drawings themselves! And that was ten+ years ago. God only knows what they require now.
Just spent ten minutes explaining to the contractor why I need a floor plan. He argues he never needs one at the Village of Someplace Else. Back and forth, back and forth. I told him that if he submits this plan, a wall section only, that it will fail. He didn't even include the electrical but said the electrician will get us this information at some undefined later date. I told him his wall section will fail if he submits it the way it is. Back and forth. He wants to know why does he need to spend this time and money for this as he knows what he is doing and all other villages accepts this? I asked him that if I point out one problem, will he provide me a floor plan. Sure no problem. OK. What size is your (2) LVL garage door header? At first he said its 2x8. Then he said, wait no its 2x12. So he writes that down on his wall section with a happy smile. I said it cant be a (2) 2x12, LVL's don't come 2x12 and my inspectors, when you install a double 2x12 will either not know that a double 2x12 wont span a rough opening of 16 feet and assume that it is correct (because maybe I approved it, - not) or will tell the contractor to remove the double 2x12 and replace it with the double 1.75x14 LVL.
So his solution is that he is happy with his wall section "plan" now that he wrote 2x12 on it and wants to submit it anyways even though I told him it will fail as-is. I looked at my front office staff and said take it in and process it. Told the contractor that in 2-4 days he will be getting his fail notice with review comments.
So, he has been doing this for decades apparently and has not learned one thing, even when I tell him directly to his face. And this is not just typical to contractors. I write comments to or meet with architects too, usually they take it in stride, add the notes and sometimes even remember it for next time, sometimes not. Again, its a part of why I have a job actually.
I suppose that makes me a sellout but, I am employed so.....
The pool is a much larger danger than the roads actually. Statistics prove this.
Please provide the link. I looked at this once; from the cdc statistics. "During 2005–2009, overall, an average of 3,880 persons died from unintentional drowning (including boating incidents) annually in the United States (1.29 deaths per 100,000 population) (Table). Rates were highest among children aged ≤4 years (2.55), and the death rate for males (2.07) was nearly four times that for females (0.54). The death rate for blacks (1.40) was significantly higher than the overall death rate (1.29), and the death rate for Hispanics was significantly lower (1.19). Racial/ethnic disparity in drowning death rates was greatest among children aged 5–14 years (blacks, 1.34; Hispanics, 0.46; and whites, 0.48). Approximately half (51.1%) of fatal drownings occurred in natural bodies of water. "
So, in a 4 year period, 1900 deaths did not happen in natural bodies of water. Also note that includes bathtubs, toilets, etc and is not specific to pools. Add to that is no one separates private pools versus public facilities and water parks.
IMHO, private pool drowning deaths couldn't be more than 1/2, so 950 in a 4 year period or about 237 a year at most. Tell me again about the roads?
^ Hyperlinks. They require hyperlinks. And digital submissions so they can tell you that you are wrong and delay the process with out you being able to argue it on the spot. I'm not sure I like these digital submissions so far.
Story time. A family member was at a friends house where they had a backyard pool and 3 kids, the youngest of which was 2. This particular evening, the adults were all sitting around conversing when the 2 year old came in from outside soaking wet with a towel around him. His mother asked where he had been. He said, "swimming." That's how ya raise em!
I've got a pool and raised 3 kids around it. Closest call we had was during the winter our excitable mastiff decided to trot across the snow covered ice on the pool and broke through. I fished him out. He's done the same to water feature koy pond, but with that it's not deep and he can get traction on the edge stones.
cdc recommends teaching proficient swimmers (since most accidents are more river, lake sort of things). Easiest way to settle it is talk to your own EMT's about how often they have responded to a drowning in a private pool... If they can't start rattling off a list longer than people just tripping on the carpet, then why the hell do you have local modifications to the code to solve this "problem"?
^^^ amen, tintt! we are now replacing a new railing in a deck because the daughter of the owner can't educate their kids not to climb over horizontal bars.....throw more money at it.
There was a time in this country when seat belts were not required inside cars. Its crazy to think about but true. People died all the time inside cars traveling 40 mph that crashed. So some knucklehead installed this belt thingy inside his cars. Low and behold deaths from car crashes with passengers who were using them lowered. And then WHAM, the freaking seat belts became law to have installed in all vehicles. But of course people being as bright as they are, didn't want to use them. The lawmakers were determined to look to peoples safety though and then WHAM, mandatory seat belt requirements were set into place.
Now 950 people died due to drowning according to your 4 year analysis. What was it from 1960-1964? Is a $30 alarm for each $10,000 pool too much to ask to save 237 lives each year, or even 25 peoples lives per year?
The building codes are there for the safety of the people in the built environment really. As an architect, your license, the reason you need a license is not because you can pick out the right toilet fixture or wall color, it is health safety and welfare.
Architects need to spend more time understanding their legal role in this.
What you're saying is that Architects need to stop thinking about what's best for their clients and instead start taking orders from the Government by rote.
This is the unintended consequence of requiring licenses to keep those pesky OTHERS out of the profession.
On the fence: You have obviously drunk the bureaucratic Kool-Aid and believe that there should be no limit to the government nanny state. Nothing will convince you.
Every law should be a good idea, but not every good idea should be a law. JMHO.
^ What is best for the public's health safety and welfare is for the public to act adults and exercise a little common sense, and to accept the consequences when they make a stupid decision. It's called freedom.
"On the fence: You have obviously drunk the bureaucratic Kool-Aid and believe that there should be no limit to the government nanny state. Nothing will convince you.
Every law should be a good idea, but not every good idea should be a law. JMHO."
I am not certain I have ever uttered those words or sentiments. Not every law is great or good. Sometimes things get put into law that make no sense to me or you. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it is proven to not work as intended and hopefully that law gets changed. I know this though, when it is your family member, child, wife, husband, uncle that dies or is injured, you will be one of those who thinks more could have been done.
Personal story. So when I grew up in the 70's the norm was to open the front door and let the children out until dinner time, right? Anybody who grew up between the 60's and 70's knows this. For me, by the age of 13 which is my sons age, it resulted in a broken leg, two broken arms, a few sprained wrists and ankles, several sets of stitches, many hospital visits and a five week hospital stay among many other small injuries. Did I survive, sure I did but I could have used a few less life lessons. Now we can't stop kids from having fun. They are kids. I let my kids out all the time but I will admit to hovering a bit. But my son for some reason has gone to the emergency room once, when a glass of hot tea broke and spilled on him causing mild first to second degree burn on his arms. I'm pretty happy that he hasn't been through everything I went through. Nanny state? Meh! just more hyper-speak to make people who don't do what they can because they are too lazy while others do more. Or rather, if you cant make yourself look good, try and make others look bad.
or if you're a parent who put a swimming pool in your house without teaching your kids to swim, how is a buzzer going to make you pay attention?
sterility exception must be added.
on the other hand, i think it's great that on the fence is a plans examiner, i think that's an important part of the process, and i think health and public welfare are important concerns for an architect. he didn't write the law, he just enforces it.
I build a house. I'm sterile. I will never have kids.
Explain how this alarm makes any sense.
If you say something about resale or guests, you lose."
You mean I lose because why? What am I losing? Do you mean you have every intention not to sell the home ever or that when you die it is in your will to have said home burned to the ground? Are you saying that never ever will you invite guests over or just guests under the age of 18? How did I lose this? Are you some sort of hermit living way off yonder 50 miles from anybody else? Sad. Some people can afford to do things and others can afford to do them correctly I suppose. Which one exactly are you and please let me know which firm you are working for that supports this behavior. I assume you don't design to ADAAG either because hell, you don't really see the need. In fact, you build to your clients need and your client sees no need to hire people with accessibility issues, right?
" i think that's an important part of the process, and i think health and public welfare are important concerns for an architect. he didn't write the law, he just enforces it."
You are the kind of person that understands. We are all a part of this. The architect, plans examiner. contractor, builders, engineers, inspectors, etc, etc are all there to get the best safest building we can or we should be. I am able to work with a lot of people and I think I have the right temperament for this. I know a lot of people who do not, both working in my role as well as in architects roles. Like I said, I tried to explain to that contractor what I needed but he wasn't going to have anything to do with it. So I let him submit his plans. He wont get a permit until meets minimum requirements though. And that may take longer than he thinks.
You lose because you feel the need to force people to comply with regulations that don't apply to them with no consideration of what THEIR needs are. We aren't talking about public buildings, buddy, so don't give that ADAAG bullshit. If I build my residence without accessibility and then become wheelchair bound, bad on me. If it ends up losing me friends, bad on me.
These are issues an Architect should bring up through the design process, not because some overpaid, mouthy bureaucrat who couldn't make a living in the profession decides to be the ultimate fair-play police.
There was a time in this country when seat belts were not required inside cars. Its crazy to think about but true.
What is your point? Those EMT's can tell you about car crashes they've gone to all day long. Hell, there are even apps that show where the accidents are so you can avoid them in the commute. I bet most people you know have been in a car accident....... can you say the same about people who have a story about drowning in a private pool? I hope you can see the difference in the need there.........
Yeah, code can be a pain in the ass, but it saves lives. Think Triangle factory fire. If it were up to the libertarians around here, we'd all have our god-given right to set off fireworks in crowded nightclubs, and fuck the consequences.
Kids don't die as much as they would in pools, or choking between the bars of cribs because we have decided that a little extra expense, and maybe even a headache for designers, is worth it if that means that people are made safer. It's not nanny-statism, it's just prudent.
Mightyaa - Car crashes and gun deaths are the outliers because they're so weirdly ingrained in our national identity that we are willing to accept the tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths and life destroying injuries they cause every year rather than agree to common sense regulations. Comparing auto and pool fatalities just doesn't work.
Retarded Codes
List here. I'll start.
NYS G105.3 Doors with direct access to the pool through that wall shall be equipped with an alarm which produces an audible warning when the door and/or its screen, if present, are opened. The alarm shall be listed in accordance with UL 2017. The audible alarm shall activate within 7 seconds and sound continuously for a minimum of 30 seconds after the door and/or its screen, if present, are opened and be capable of being heard throughout the house during normal household activities. The alarm shall automatically reset under all conditions. The alarm system shall be equipped with a manual means, such as touch pad or switch, to temporarily deactivate the alarm for a single opening. Deactivation shall last for not more than 15 seconds.
Aside from operating problems (try navigating two doors, both alarmed, either by more than one person or carrying something like your phone and a nice cold beverage) this code prohibits you from having an open door that leads to a pool. Period. If you have an alarmed screen in addition to a door, you still can't leave the door open because the alarm automatically resets. Let's not forget that the pool itself is also required to have a splash alarm.
Using the integrated security system to provide similar function is not allowed, ostensibly because it can be deprogrammed. As if nobody removes the cheap-shit battery-powered wall-mounted Poolguard units the nanosecond the C/O is received.
1) Sorry, Miles, you can't call stuff "retarded" anymore. It just isn't done. Go ahead and blame out-of-control political correctness if you want, but you'll still sound like a tool stuck in the past if you keep using the word.
2) You sure you're reading the code right? Sounds like you can just alarm the screen door. But I'm with you - if kids weren't such little retards, we wouldn't have to have buzz-killing alarms going off when we're trying to get our drink on by the pool. Codes just get in the way of natural selection.
You're a PC thought police fool. Nothing wrong with using the word retarded to described retarded building codes. People like you are become very unwelcome anywhere.
Nah. The word's gotta go.
anonitect I love this post. LOL'd like crazy.
But seriously, Miles, stop using retarded that way. It's unacceptable.
28 - 101.4.5 Work that increases existing floor surface area of a prior code building by more than 110 percent. Notwithstanding sections 28 - 101.4.3 and 28 - 102.4.3 or any other provision of this code that would authorize alterations of prior code buildings in accordance with the 1968 building code or prior codes, where the proposed work at the completion of construction will increa se the amount of floor surface area of a prior code building by more than 110 percent , over the amount of existing floor surface area, such entire building shall be made to comply with the provisions of this code as if it were a new building hereafter erec ted. See Section 28 - 105.2 for permits for such work.
increase by 110% means? I had probably a former employee of Dell's technical support, now turned code examiner, debate this with me. The responses I got were hilarious .............."This is not a zoning review"........."No,no, I know, but what does BY mean here? In addition to or full sum increase proportionally"..........."Sir you need to provide calculations.".................."Dude, I have turned off my Dell computer and unplugged the cord for Christ sake, answer my question."..............hows that for political correctness.
btw the examiners in nyc are all coached to respond a certain way based on current policy, its just funny it reminded me of a Dell technical support call. and normally you do NOT ask potentially philosophical questions in a review, save that shit for the commisioner.
What is the code afraid of? That the swimming pool will catch on fire and spread to the rest of the house? Has that been a major problem that I just haven't read about?
The nanny state would be just a source of laughter and merriment if it wasn't so expensive.
The post was originally titled 'bad codes' but the expediter called it retarded and I have to agree. Any rule that is self-defeating is retarded.
a pool with out this is dangerous to "retards". is Affluenza a handi-cap?
Always wanted to submit and outlandish drawing of a tourture chamber or swimming pool of sharks to see what they would say.
This pool discussion made me think of this:
https://media.giphy.com/media/l4KhPpXSbad0zDvdC/giphy.gif
i think i've pretty much had that conversation before jla
'no mr. plans reviewer, the sharks are not included in the scope of this project. Sharks are shown for informational purposes only. FFE will be provided by tenant under separate contract"
The alarm isn't there to inconvenience you and your beer and plate of nachos. Its there to save lives, mostly the lives of children who may jump into a pool unattended by an adult.
The UL2017 alarm, if integrated into some other security alarm system would be fine. Don't blame the standard though, blame your security company who cant figure out how to integrate it.
BY 110% has to mean you've more than doubled the space, if the code is written in English and assumes actual math is used for the calculations. Whether or not you can convince a code reviewer of these "finer points" of the English language, who knows.
Reminds me of this old blog where Verizon didn't know the difference between .002 dollars and .002 cents:
http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/2006/12/verizon-doesnt-know-dollars-from-cents.html
And Epic Submarine Battle, hilarious!
people always add these pool alarms and enclosure fences for inspection and take them out immediately after c of o - nbd.
The alarm isn't there to inconvenience you and your beer and plate of nachos. Its there to save lives, mostly the lives of children who may jump into a pool unattended by an adult.
To use this line of reasoning, you should put similar safeguards on all the exterior doors of the house to prevent a kiddie from running into the street.
How about a similar gate at the top of all stairs to prevent kids from running down the stairs and tripping without an adult around?
Ditto for all windows above the first floor.
Where does all this nannyism end? This is presumably a single family private home. Can't the owner/parent be presumed to exercise some responsible supervision of their children? If they have a pool, can't we assume it is for the kids, who presumably know how to swim?
Grow up, America.
Petition for no more guardrails! Who's in? I'm going to e-mail Hillary Clinton right now.
Miles, based on your previous avatar, I still read what you write in the voice of Ricky from Trailer Park Boys. In that context, the faux pax didn't even register for me.
The pool is a much larger danger than the roads actually. Statistics prove this. Besides, people leave back doors open and you just push the screen door, then find your child at the bottom of the pool. The front door is usually much more solid, is usually or more often closed, and typically has a dead bolt on it. Yes, sure a two year old child could possibly reach up high enough to twist the dead bolt and maybe apply enough force to get that front door open, and maybe get to the front porch, out onto the grass, and if that far probably sits down. If any further, drivers see the child before rolling over them. So the front door argument is kind of pointless.
Windows actually have a code section for them as well in the 2006 IRC section 613 exception #2 which a guard complying with ASTM F 2006 or F 2090 This is usually a sash limiter device made of plastic which pops out from the side and keeps the window from opening more than 4 inches.
If architects such as the ones here would spend some time getting their continuing education requirements for Health, Safety and Wellfare, instead of for touring Frank LLoyd Wright homes, matching color fabric swatches and plumbing fixtures to suit tile patterns, I would be out of a job as a Plans examiner.
Also, there are other options for you besides the cheap UL2017 alarm for the door.
Read a code book once in a while.
On the fence, I'll do continuing education if plans examiners actually look at the plans and don't give me a generic correction list where all I do is say "see sheet Ax.xx, see sheet Ax.xx" and babysit guide you through the project. But I guess your cushy government job is difficult right? All those days off hard to get anything done!
"If architects such as the ones here would spend some time getting their continuing education requirements for Health, Safety and Wellfare, instead of for touring Frank LLoyd Wright homes, matching color fabric swatches and plumbing fixtures to suit tile patterns, I would be out of a job as a Plans examiner."
Yeah, you had me interested until this bit.
Fuck off, you divisive, ignorant prick.
Im not sure what the problem is...even if you leave the back door wide open how can the kids possibly escape their cages and then manage to breakdown the cellar door?
ha...plans examiner, that is when you know you have just given up - probably wear socks, sandals and sweatpants to work. When is your mountain dew break bro?
On the fence: You might be out of a job, but perhaps could find employment doing something a little more useful than enforcing the utterly ridiculous niggling regulations that are burdening anyone trying to do anything. It's a wonder how mankind has survived all these millennia without some bureaucrat supervising their every move.
Too funny Starchitect. I'm a licensed architect as well by the way. And I have seen some crappy plan reviews, crappy plan reviewers and crappy architects. I have a folder I keep called "The shit I have seen" for those special projects I want to use for a good laugh in my retirement, at 65 Probably because of my cushy government job but more likely because I put my time and money into a system that values me more. And there are days that are tough and difficult. I have to deal with a lot of people, all of whom think they are right and sometimes they are, but usually I am explaining tedious code sections that have been in place and unchanged for 20 plus years and still I have to correct them. I am doing this job because design professionals, contractors DIYers, homeowners, engineers etc think its beneath them to actually spend some time in reading up on health safety and wellfare, know what they are doing.
I have to cut this short right now, because I have to go talk to a contractor about providing me a floor plan for a detached garage he wants to build. My front office staff tells me he doesn't understand what I mean by a floor plan. He handed me an incomplete wall section only with notes like (2) LVL header. Very useful info.
"I am doing this job because design professionals, contractors DIYers, homeowners, engineers etc think its beneath them to actually spend some time in reading up on health safety and wellfare, know what they are doing."
slow clap......true hero.
might as well wipe your ass with your license - sellout.
Starchitect: When you only have to write a letter like the one you are describing, it's a good day. What I love(d) were the municipalities that required me to quote verbatim the applicable code section language, sometimes entire paragraphs, not only in the letter but on the drawings themselves! And that was ten+ years ago. God only knows what they require now.
I'm back.
Just spent ten minutes explaining to the contractor why I need a floor plan. He argues he never needs one at the Village of Someplace Else. Back and forth, back and forth. I told him that if he submits this plan, a wall section only, that it will fail. He didn't even include the electrical but said the electrician will get us this information at some undefined later date. I told him his wall section will fail if he submits it the way it is. Back and forth. He wants to know why does he need to spend this time and money for this as he knows what he is doing and all other villages accepts this? I asked him that if I point out one problem, will he provide me a floor plan. Sure no problem. OK. What size is your (2) LVL garage door header? At first he said its 2x8. Then he said, wait no its 2x12. So he writes that down on his wall section with a happy smile. I said it cant be a (2) 2x12, LVL's don't come 2x12 and my inspectors, when you install a double 2x12 will either not know that a double 2x12 wont span a rough opening of 16 feet and assume that it is correct (because maybe I approved it, - not) or will tell the contractor to remove the double 2x12 and replace it with the double 1.75x14 LVL.
So his solution is that he is happy with his wall section "plan" now that he wrote 2x12 on it and wants to submit it anyways even though I told him it will fail as-is. I looked at my front office staff and said take it in and process it. Told the contractor that in 2-4 days he will be getting his fail notice with review comments.
So, he has been doing this for decades apparently and has not learned one thing, even when I tell him directly to his face. And this is not just typical to contractors. I write comments to or meet with architects too, usually they take it in stride, add the notes and sometimes even remember it for next time, sometimes not. Again, its a part of why I have a job actually.
I suppose that makes me a sellout but, I am employed so.....
The pool is a much larger danger than the roads actually. Statistics prove this.
Please provide the link. I looked at this once; from the cdc statistics. "During 2005–2009, overall, an average of 3,880 persons died from unintentional drowning (including boating incidents) annually in the United States (1.29 deaths per 100,000 population) (Table). Rates were highest among children aged ≤4 years (2.55), and the death rate for males (2.07) was nearly four times that for females (0.54). The death rate for blacks (1.40) was significantly higher than the overall death rate (1.29), and the death rate for Hispanics was significantly lower (1.19). Racial/ethnic disparity in drowning death rates was greatest among children aged 5–14 years (blacks, 1.34; Hispanics, 0.46; and whites, 0.48). Approximately half (51.1%) of fatal drownings occurred in natural bodies of water. "
So, in a 4 year period, 1900 deaths did not happen in natural bodies of water. Also note that includes bathtubs, toilets, etc and is not specific to pools. Add to that is no one separates private pools versus public facilities and water parks.
IMHO, private pool drowning deaths couldn't be more than 1/2, so 950 in a 4 year period or about 237 a year at most. Tell me again about the roads?
^ Hyperlinks. They require hyperlinks. And digital submissions so they can tell you that you are wrong and delay the process with out you being able to argue it on the spot. I'm not sure I like these digital submissions so far.
Story time. A family member was at a friends house where they had a backyard pool and 3 kids, the youngest of which was 2. This particular evening, the adults were all sitting around conversing when the 2 year old came in from outside soaking wet with a towel around him. His mother asked where he had been. He said, "swimming." That's how ya raise em!
Wait, residential pools can be used for swimming?
http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Water-Safety/waterinjuries-factsheet.html
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6119a4.htm
Better?
I've got a pool and raised 3 kids around it. Closest call we had was during the winter our excitable mastiff decided to trot across the snow covered ice on the pool and broke through. I fished him out. He's done the same to water feature koy pond, but with that it's not deep and he can get traction on the edge stones.
cdc recommends teaching proficient swimmers (since most accidents are more river, lake sort of things). Easiest way to settle it is talk to your own EMT's about how often they have responded to a drowning in a private pool... If they can't start rattling off a list longer than people just tripping on the carpet, then why the hell do you have local modifications to the code to solve this "problem"?
^^^ amen, tintt! we are now replacing a new railing in a deck because the daughter of the owner can't educate their kids not to climb over horizontal bars.....throw more money at it.
migtyaa,
There was a time in this country when seat belts were not required inside cars. Its crazy to think about but true. People died all the time inside cars traveling 40 mph that crashed. So some knucklehead installed this belt thingy inside his cars. Low and behold deaths from car crashes with passengers who were using them lowered. And then WHAM, the freaking seat belts became law to have installed in all vehicles. But of course people being as bright as they are, didn't want to use them. The lawmakers were determined to look to peoples safety though and then WHAM, mandatory seat belt requirements were set into place.
Now 950 people died due to drowning according to your 4 year analysis. What was it from 1960-1964? Is a $30 alarm for each $10,000 pool too much to ask to save 237 lives each year, or even 25 peoples lives per year?
The building codes are there for the safety of the people in the built environment really. As an architect, your license, the reason you need a license is not because you can pick out the right toilet fixture or wall color, it is health safety and welfare.
Architects need to spend more time understanding their legal role in this.
And here is a link.
http://snicc.org/files/uploads/Facts_about_Swimming_Pool_Drowning_Accidents.pdf
What you're saying is that Architects need to stop thinking about what's best for their clients and instead start taking orders from the Government by rote.
This is the unintended consequence of requiring licenses to keep those pesky OTHERS out of the profession.
On the fence: You have obviously drunk the bureaucratic Kool-Aid and believe that there should be no limit to the government nanny state. Nothing will convince you.
Every law should be a good idea, but not every good idea should be a law. JMHO.
So what you are saying is that what is best for your client is what is best for the publics health safety and welfare?
^ What is best for the public's health safety and welfare is for the public to act adults and exercise a little common sense, and to accept the consequences when they make a stupid decision. It's called freedom.
I build a house. I'm sterile. I will never have kids.
Explain how this alarm makes any sense.
If you say something about resale or guests, you lose.
"On the fence: You have obviously drunk the bureaucratic Kool-Aid and believe that there should be no limit to the government nanny state. Nothing will convince you.
Every law should be a good idea, but not every good idea should be a law. JMHO."
I am not certain I have ever uttered those words or sentiments. Not every law is great or good. Sometimes things get put into law that make no sense to me or you. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it is proven to not work as intended and hopefully that law gets changed. I know this though, when it is your family member, child, wife, husband, uncle that dies or is injured, you will be one of those who thinks more could have been done.
Personal story. So when I grew up in the 70's the norm was to open the front door and let the children out until dinner time, right? Anybody who grew up between the 60's and 70's knows this. For me, by the age of 13 which is my sons age, it resulted in a broken leg, two broken arms, a few sprained wrists and ankles, several sets of stitches, many hospital visits and a five week hospital stay among many other small injuries. Did I survive, sure I did but I could have used a few less life lessons. Now we can't stop kids from having fun. They are kids. I let my kids out all the time but I will admit to hovering a bit. But my son for some reason has gone to the emergency room once, when a glass of hot tea broke and spilled on him causing mild first to second degree burn on his arms. I'm pretty happy that he hasn't been through everything I went through. Nanny state? Meh! just more hyper-speak to make people who don't do what they can because they are too lazy while others do more. Or rather, if you cant make yourself look good, try and make others look bad.
or if you're a parent who put a swimming pool in your house without teaching your kids to swim, how is a buzzer going to make you pay attention?
sterility exception must be added.
on the other hand, i think it's great that on the fence is a plans examiner, i think that's an important part of the process, and i think health and public welfare are important concerns for an architect. he didn't write the law, he just enforces it.
"
I build a house. I'm sterile. I will never have kids.
Explain how this alarm makes any sense.
If you say something about resale or guests, you lose."
You mean I lose because why? What am I losing? Do you mean you have every intention not to sell the home ever or that when you die it is in your will to have said home burned to the ground? Are you saying that never ever will you invite guests over or just guests under the age of 18? How did I lose this? Are you some sort of hermit living way off yonder 50 miles from anybody else? Sad. Some people can afford to do things and others can afford to do them correctly I suppose. Which one exactly are you and please let me know which firm you are working for that supports this behavior. I assume you don't design to ADAAG either because hell, you don't really see the need. In fact, you build to your clients need and your client sees no need to hire people with accessibility issues, right?
Curtkram
" i think that's an important part of the process, and i think health and public welfare are important concerns for an architect. he didn't write the law, he just enforces it."
You are the kind of person that understands. We are all a part of this. The architect, plans examiner. contractor, builders, engineers, inspectors, etc, etc are all there to get the best safest building we can or we should be. I am able to work with a lot of people and I think I have the right temperament for this. I know a lot of people who do not, both working in my role as well as in architects roles. Like I said, I tried to explain to that contractor what I needed but he wasn't going to have anything to do with it. So I let him submit his plans. He wont get a permit until meets minimum requirements though. And that may take longer than he thinks.
OTF:
You lose because you feel the need to force people to comply with regulations that don't apply to them with no consideration of what THEIR needs are. We aren't talking about public buildings, buddy, so don't give that ADAAG bullshit. If I build my residence without accessibility and then become wheelchair bound, bad on me. If it ends up losing me friends, bad on me.
These are issues an Architect should bring up through the design process, not because some overpaid, mouthy bureaucrat who couldn't make a living in the profession decides to be the ultimate fair-play police.
There was a time in this country when seat belts were not required inside cars. Its crazy to think about but true.
What is your point? Those EMT's can tell you about car crashes they've gone to all day long. Hell, there are even apps that show where the accidents are so you can avoid them in the commute. I bet most people you know have been in a car accident....... can you say the same about people who have a story about drowning in a private pool? I hope you can see the difference in the need there.........
Yeah, code can be a pain in the ass, but it saves lives. Think Triangle factory fire. If it were up to the libertarians around here, we'd all have our god-given right to set off fireworks in crowded nightclubs, and fuck the consequences.
Kids don't die as much as they would in pools, or choking between the bars of cribs because we have decided that a little extra expense, and maybe even a headache for designers, is worth it if that means that people are made safer. It's not nanny-statism, it's just prudent.
Mightyaa - Car crashes and gun deaths are the outliers because they're so weirdly ingrained in our national identity that we are willing to accept the tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths and life destroying injuries they cause every year rather than agree to common sense regulations. Comparing auto and pool fatalities just doesn't work.
Which, if any of you on this thread, are licensed architects?
Show of hands please.
Folks, we're not talking about buildings open to the public. We're talking about Residential Code.
Which makes the attempted UNLICENSED SLAM irrelevant. As if licensure has ever been a guarantee of competency.
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