I'm an intern with a little less than 2 years experience. I'm not incredibly happy at my present job and there are job openings for which I'm qualified at some of the big fancy firms in town. I'd like to at least test the waters.
However, my best references would be from my current employer, who I don't want to know I'm looking around. Should I use them anyway? Or use older references from school? Thanks!
Prospective employers will want to know what you are currently doing, so a gap in your resume will not look good. If you are an intern, does that mean you are getting paid nothing or close to nothing (minimum wage)? If so, your current "employer" shouldn't be shocked and amazed that you want to move up in the world (just like he/she did). If you aren't getting paid, what do you have to lose?
washingtonian: I understand the reluctance to jeopardize your current position, even though you're not happy there. Still, most firms where you might interview probably will need / want current references - without those there will be a certain amount of uneasiness that can jeopardize your ability to secure a new job.
You don't indicate the size of your current firm. While references from a principal always are desirable, perhaps there's someone at a supervisory level who might be willing to serve as a refernce. Is there someone below the ownership level who you can trust with this information and who also knows enough about your work to serve as an effective reference? Are there individuals you've worked with at consulting firms who might be able to serve as references? Look for creative ways to solve this problem without necessarily asking a principal of your firm to serve in this capacity.
Be sure to use the phrase "References available upon request" on your resume -- don't just provide reference contact information until that information is requested. That will give you a chance to explain your situation and why your reference list is limited. And, there's always the possibility the subject never will be raised.
quizzical, you may be able to speak to this better than me, but it seems a pretty small world among architects
if washingtonian brought this up with a consultant, like MEP or Structural or something, would it be likely that they have a stronger relationship with the principles/managers at his current firm, and there would be a pretty good chance they would say something?
that's likely the same with managers at the firm. if washingtonian were to talk to them about the prospect of leaving, wouldn't it be likely they would speak to the higher ups about it, assuming they talk on occasion? especially if he were to get a good reference, wouldn't it be from someone that would want to keep working with him, rather than someone that wanted to see him go?
if he went to big firm 'b' and had little firm 'a' as current employer, what are the odds big firm 'b' would contact little firm 'a,' and if he asked for discretion would that really matter?
curt: Good point. We do live in a small, and highly interconnected, profession.
What washingtonian is trying to accomplish probably cannot be accomplished without some degree of risk to his current position. In the best of all worlds, he'd be able to discuss this situation with his current employer w/o risking his job, but he's apparently not comfortable doing that. So, IMO, the next best thing is to look around at other professional relationships and determine which ones can be both trusted and useful. If he chooses wisely, and explains the stakes to the people in question, he should be okay. But, nothing ever is 100% certain.
I've done a lot of hiring over the years and it's not uncommon for candidates to appear with similar stories. I always respect their concerns and operate accordingly. However, I always want to check meaningful references -- if I cannot do so without violating the confidences thrust upon me, I may go with another qualified candidate if available. That's the other side of the risk inherent in a situation like this.
chigurh offers good advice above. It doesn't totally solve the problem, but that approach is useful.
If you work and firm A, and apply to firm B, firm B is not going to pick up the phone and rat you out. But if they're small firms, and the principal of firms A and B both teach 2nd year studio at the local university, or are on the same AIA committee, it may come up.
For references, I can say that my firm would not hire someone who's references are out of date. If you have 2 years experience, I want to know if you were competent at that job. I don't really care that one of your professors whose studio you took 3 years ago thought you were great, or that your boss on a summer job while in school thought the same.
This creates a dilemma, but be a grown up about it. Tell your boss that you're considering a change, and would like a reference. He'll almost certainly act like an adult about it. As a boss, my one concern in this situation is that the employee not leave w/ short or little notice, putting me in a jam. So make part of your discussion about leaving...that you want to do so in a smooth way. That may mean giving a month's notice, or even offering to help the guy/girl get up and running.
buy bklyntotfc, he doesn't have the other job yet. he's trying to apply so he has a chance, not a guarantee.
if you were his boss and he told you he was leaving, that puts him in a very risky position. he should probably have some certainty that he was leaving before he tells you he intends to leave, right?
Thanks to all for their responses. I suppose what I was striving for was the best of both worlds- to throw my hat in the ring for a better job while incurring zero risk to the trust I've built up with my employer. Now I'm realizing this may not be possible.
I may follow Chigurh's advice, since it seems like the least risky. If I land an interview, I can talk with them about it then. If not, no harm done.
bklyntotfc, appreciate the long response. I am still just not at the point where I'd like to discuss this with my boss given I have no guarantee of getting an interview, much less the job.
quizzical, I like your idea but unfortunately I do most of my work one on one with a principal, so there aren't many others in the firm I could turn to.
Don't print you resume and cover letter stating "I'm looking to leave my current job" from your work laptop while working remotely and notice it sent it to the office printer. - true story (friendly coworkers to the rescue) but anyway just say please don't contact current employer and use professors as references still. Even if you are super close to coworkers the fact that you might leave them high and dry with deadlines and a 3 week lag time to hire someone new might motivate them to say something to management. Anyway thats what I did while applying from my first job and no one ever had an issue. They realized it's a hard environment and I was an intern making peanuts and was hoping to move up to making almonds.
as an intern with less than 2 years of employment, you don't need references, anybody looking at your resume will see you went from school to a job and have been there steadily, which speaks enough about your performance. Going to ask your current boss about acting as a reference for a potential new job is bad advice.
Your references should be from consultants, professional connections, IDP mentor, etc, not from your boss. Each job you list on your resume is a chance for HR to talk to one person about your past... you don't want your references to all be at those same #'s.
Remember, you are an intern. Your most valuable assets are passion and skills. Front-load your resume with those and good luck.
All - be very careful with giving references, I've heard some really strange stuff from references, and I've taken calls from HR people with even stranger stuff.... the questions are never specific (other than verifying you worked there).... is general, open ended stuff trying to get the reference to editorialize about you, conversations like that can veer off course unintentionally..... stupid people asking stupid question of stupid people can lead to stupefying results.
I know it's hard, but references need to be people you trust implicitly, somebody you're friends with, people who are answerable to you, someone that knows you well enough, and cares enough, to call you after the call to share what they said. NEVER give a long list of references, like "look who I know".... be VERY selective, 3 is the number, take each to lunch to bring them up to date on your career, share your dreams & needs, and impress upon them how important this job change is to you & your family... feel them out in interview fashion and if you detect even the slightest hesitation (watch their eyes) cross them off and go to #4.
Remember, the employer hasn't a clue who you really are, and assumes the reference does, I can't tell you how many times I've hung up the phone and thought to myself - "What?"
Agree, the OP doesn't need any, not expected.... other than the name of a priest:)
You are an intern, right? In that case I would sit down with my supervisor and tell him that you enjoy working for the firm as an intern very much and are looking down the road at the next step your career. That puts the ball in their court in a nice way. They may offer you a promotion or tell you they would like to but aren't able to financially. If you do leave try and give as much notice as possible (a month would be great) and finish all of your outstanding assignments in a complete and comprehensive matter. Tell your supervisor to feel free to call you after you leave with any questions about your work.
Chigurh, I assume you mean examples of “strange stuff”. Can’t remember everything, but here are some real examples….remember, when I called references I asked the stupid stuff too….with my “nut detector”….I’ll give you 2 for fun:
Called an architect that the applicant worked for, two jobs ago…guy had a lot of praise, applicant worked there for about 4 years (small firm), so I was confident he knew the applicant well, guy was being careful with what he said, but from the interviewers point of view, the longer you can drag out the conversation the more likely the reference will put his guard down…..THEN, out of nowhere the guy says casually “I wonder if he has a problem with women?” Then I probed and he went on (quite casually) about office incidents with women….then went right back to praising the guy. “Ding!” “What?” – Didn’t hire that guy.
Called another architect who said he “had been friends” (Had??) with the applicant, praise again, almost too much, told me to hire the guy, lots of good stuff, dragged it out again with general (stupid) questions, THEN, out of nowhere he says “I’d be careful, he moves around a lot, never seems to stay anywhere long” , then with probe I learn of all kinds of jobs he had that were not on his resume….guy finishes up saying “I would defiantly hire him if I were you”. “Ding!” “What?” – Didn’t hire that guy either.
Neither of these references meet my criteria, neither had seen the applicants in some time and it was obvious to me that they hadn’t even called them about being a reference….the applicants were relying on their perception of their “friendship” with these people and it went haywire. Only use references that are invested in you in some way. Another thing to do, give a copy of your current resume to the reference so they keep your shit straight.
Not very many employers expect interns to stick it out past a few years w/o a promotion. In my experience, as long as you're reasonable about a need for change giving them a heads up as a courtesy can be a good way to maintain a nice reference (granted my experience is with smaller firms where my position was secure while I had it). If they're reasonable people, I'd ask after the interview if they could be a reference - the last few firms I've been at valued making sure a potential employee was stable, sane and a good personality fit. Most places do expect certain skill sets even at entry level and would prefer someone that'll fit the studio culture - a social office that gets along is more likely to be able to produce good work and spend extra hours.
I second Carrera's advice on making sure your references know you well, accept a request to be a reference and that you stay in touch with them (I use references from 7+ yrs back, but only because I keep them updated of my progress and the type of work I do).
May 1, 15 3:48 pm ·
·
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.
How to apply stealthily for new job?
I'm an intern with a little less than 2 years experience. I'm not incredibly happy at my present job and there are job openings for which I'm qualified at some of the big fancy firms in town. I'd like to at least test the waters.
However, my best references would be from my current employer, who I don't want to know I'm looking around. Should I use them anyway? Or use older references from school? Thanks!
Prospective employers will want to know what you are currently doing, so a gap in your resume will not look good. If you are an intern, does that mean you are getting paid nothing or close to nothing (minimum wage)? If so, your current "employer" shouldn't be shocked and amazed that you want to move up in the world (just like he/she did). If you aren't getting paid, what do you have to lose?
washingtonian: I understand the reluctance to jeopardize your current position, even though you're not happy there. Still, most firms where you might interview probably will need / want current references - without those there will be a certain amount of uneasiness that can jeopardize your ability to secure a new job.
You don't indicate the size of your current firm. While references from a principal always are desirable, perhaps there's someone at a supervisory level who might be willing to serve as a refernce. Is there someone below the ownership level who you can trust with this information and who also knows enough about your work to serve as an effective reference? Are there individuals you've worked with at consulting firms who might be able to serve as references? Look for creative ways to solve this problem without necessarily asking a principal of your firm to serve in this capacity.
Be sure to use the phrase "References available upon request" on your resume -- don't just provide reference contact information until that information is requested. That will give you a chance to explain your situation and why your reference list is limited. And, there's always the possibility the subject never will be raised.
Good luck.
quizzical, you may be able to speak to this better than me, but it seems a pretty small world among architects
if washingtonian brought this up with a consultant, like MEP or Structural or something, would it be likely that they have a stronger relationship with the principles/managers at his current firm, and there would be a pretty good chance they would say something?
that's likely the same with managers at the firm. if washingtonian were to talk to them about the prospect of leaving, wouldn't it be likely they would speak to the higher ups about it, assuming they talk on occasion? especially if he were to get a good reference, wouldn't it be from someone that would want to keep working with him, rather than someone that wanted to see him go?
if he went to big firm 'b' and had little firm 'a' as current employer, what are the odds big firm 'b' would contact little firm 'a,' and if he asked for discretion would that really matter?
will firms call to tell their competition that they're about to steal an employee?
just say in your cover letter that you are currently employed by firm x and you would appreciate discretion during the review process
curt: Good point. We do live in a small, and highly interconnected, profession.
What washingtonian is trying to accomplish probably cannot be accomplished without some degree of risk to his current position. In the best of all worlds, he'd be able to discuss this situation with his current employer w/o risking his job, but he's apparently not comfortable doing that. So, IMO, the next best thing is to look around at other professional relationships and determine which ones can be both trusted and useful. If he chooses wisely, and explains the stakes to the people in question, he should be okay. But, nothing ever is 100% certain.
I've done a lot of hiring over the years and it's not uncommon for candidates to appear with similar stories. I always respect their concerns and operate accordingly. However, I always want to check meaningful references -- if I cannot do so without violating the confidences thrust upon me, I may go with another qualified candidate if available. That's the other side of the risk inherent in a situation like this.
chigurh offers good advice above. It doesn't totally solve the problem, but that approach is useful.
If you work and firm A, and apply to firm B, firm B is not going to pick up the phone and rat you out. But if they're small firms, and the principal of firms A and B both teach 2nd year studio at the local university, or are on the same AIA committee, it may come up.
For references, I can say that my firm would not hire someone who's references are out of date. If you have 2 years experience, I want to know if you were competent at that job. I don't really care that one of your professors whose studio you took 3 years ago thought you were great, or that your boss on a summer job while in school thought the same.
This creates a dilemma, but be a grown up about it. Tell your boss that you're considering a change, and would like a reference. He'll almost certainly act like an adult about it. As a boss, my one concern in this situation is that the employee not leave w/ short or little notice, putting me in a jam. So make part of your discussion about leaving...that you want to do so in a smooth way. That may mean giving a month's notice, or even offering to help the guy/girl get up and running.
buy bklyntotfc, he doesn't have the other job yet. he's trying to apply so he has a chance, not a guarantee.
if you were his boss and he told you he was leaving, that puts him in a very risky position. he should probably have some certainty that he was leaving before he tells you he intends to leave, right?
Thanks to all for their responses. I suppose what I was striving for was the best of both worlds- to throw my hat in the ring for a better job while incurring zero risk to the trust I've built up with my employer. Now I'm realizing this may not be possible.
I may follow Chigurh's advice, since it seems like the least risky. If I land an interview, I can talk with them about it then. If not, no harm done.
bklyntotfc, appreciate the long response. I am still just not at the point where I'd like to discuss this with my boss given I have no guarantee of getting an interview, much less the job.
quizzical, I like your idea but unfortunately I do most of my work one on one with a principal, so there aren't many others in the firm I could turn to.
Don't print you resume and cover letter stating "I'm looking to leave my current job" from your work laptop while working remotely and notice it sent it to the office printer. - true story (friendly coworkers to the rescue) but anyway just say please don't contact current employer and use professors as references still. Even if you are super close to coworkers the fact that you might leave them high and dry with deadlines and a 3 week lag time to hire someone new might motivate them to say something to management. Anyway thats what I did while applying from my first job and no one ever had an issue. They realized it's a hard environment and I was an intern making peanuts and was hoping to move up to making almonds.
as an intern with less than 2 years of employment, you don't need references, anybody looking at your resume will see you went from school to a job and have been there steadily, which speaks enough about your performance. Going to ask your current boss about acting as a reference for a potential new job is bad advice.
hiring folks are used to this situation
they will roll with it
they will factor in the lack of references, but, if you're worthwhile, i doubt that minor risk will hose your chances
Your references should be from consultants, professional connections, IDP mentor, etc, not from your boss. Each job you list on your resume is a chance for HR to talk to one person about your past... you don't want your references to all be at those same #'s.
Remember, you are an intern. Your most valuable assets are passion and skills. Front-load your resume with those and good luck.
All - be very careful with giving references, I've heard some really strange stuff from references, and I've taken calls from HR people with even stranger stuff.... the questions are never specific (other than verifying you worked there).... is general, open ended stuff trying to get the reference to editorialize about you, conversations like that can veer off course unintentionally..... stupid people asking stupid question of stupid people can lead to stupefying results.
I know it's hard, but references need to be people you trust implicitly, somebody you're friends with, people who are answerable to you, someone that knows you well enough, and cares enough, to call you after the call to share what they said. NEVER give a long list of references, like "look who I know".... be VERY selective, 3 is the number, take each to lunch to bring them up to date on your career, share your dreams & needs, and impress upon them how important this job change is to you & your family... feel them out in interview fashion and if you detect even the slightest hesitation (watch their eyes) cross them off and go to #4.
Remember, the employer hasn't a clue who you really are, and assumes the reference does, I can't tell you how many times I've hung up the phone and thought to myself - "What?"
Agree, the OP doesn't need any, not expected.... other than the name of a priest:)
You are an intern, right? In that case I would sit down with my supervisor and tell him that you enjoy working for the firm as an intern very much and are looking down the road at the next step your career. That puts the ball in their court in a nice way. They may offer you a promotion or tell you they would like to but aren't able to financially. If you do leave try and give as much notice as possible (a month would be great) and finish all of your outstanding assignments in a complete and comprehensive matter. Tell your supervisor to feel free to call you after you leave with any questions about your work.
carrera....examples?
Chigurh, I assume you mean examples of “strange stuff”. Can’t remember everything, but here are some real examples….remember, when I called references I asked the stupid stuff too….with my “nut detector”….I’ll give you 2 for fun:
Called an architect that the applicant worked for, two jobs ago…guy had a lot of praise, applicant worked there for about 4 years (small firm), so I was confident he knew the applicant well, guy was being careful with what he said, but from the interviewers point of view, the longer you can drag out the conversation the more likely the reference will put his guard down…..THEN, out of nowhere the guy says casually “I wonder if he has a problem with women?” Then I probed and he went on (quite casually) about office incidents with women….then went right back to praising the guy. “Ding!” “What?” – Didn’t hire that guy.
Called another architect who said he “had been friends” (Had??) with the applicant, praise again, almost too much, told me to hire the guy, lots of good stuff, dragged it out again with general (stupid) questions, THEN, out of nowhere he says “I’d be careful, he moves around a lot, never seems to stay anywhere long” , then with probe I learn of all kinds of jobs he had that were not on his resume….guy finishes up saying “I would defiantly hire him if I were you”. “Ding!” “What?” – Didn’t hire that guy either.
Neither of these references meet my criteria, neither had seen the applicants in some time and it was obvious to me that they hadn’t even called them about being a reference….the applicants were relying on their perception of their “friendship” with these people and it went haywire. Only use references that are invested in you in some way. Another thing to do, give a copy of your current resume to the reference so they keep your shit straight.
>“I wonder if he has a problem with women?” Then I probed and he went on (quite casually) about office incidents with women.
Example? He was harassing women or was shy/awkward?
Leaning toward the first one. Define "harass" these days.
Not very many employers expect interns to stick it out past a few years w/o a promotion. In my experience, as long as you're reasonable about a need for change giving them a heads up as a courtesy can be a good way to maintain a nice reference (granted my experience is with smaller firms where my position was secure while I had it). If they're reasonable people, I'd ask after the interview if they could be a reference - the last few firms I've been at valued making sure a potential employee was stable, sane and a good personality fit. Most places do expect certain skill sets even at entry level and would prefer someone that'll fit the studio culture - a social office that gets along is more likely to be able to produce good work and spend extra hours.
I second Carrera's advice on making sure your references know you well, accept a request to be a reference and that you stay in touch with them (I use references from 7+ yrs back, but only because I keep them updated of my progress and the type of work I do).
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.