Nam, this is the story everywhere. In North Minneapolis transit policies effectively make life hell for those that need public transit the most. Routes, schedules, etc, all conspire to make life there difficult.
"Neighborhoods that appear to be integrated are almost always those in transition, either from mostly white to mostly black (like Ferguson), or from mostly black to increasingly white (like St. Louis’s gentrifying neighborhoods)."
again I reference the Representation Pavilion proposal, add transitional trends and policy explanations to this pavilion, like a Venice Bieniale - I bet they wouldn't let you build it once they knew what you were up to.
still reading article...
"A 1995 St. Louis newspaper report alleged that in some cases, speculators did not have initial African American buyers but instead bought homes in neighborhoods they anticipated turning into African American communities, and let the empty houses deteriorate to depress the value of others nearby.70 After neighbors were sufficiently panicked, speculators bought properties at reduced prices and then resold them at inflated prices to African Americans in desperate need of housing. Agents made large profits in this way. Once a block or neighborhood had been “busted” in this fashion, agents would proceed to the next block or neighborhood, using similar tactics. Some agents did not resell homes, but subdivided and rented them to black families."
"The lower incomes of African Americans today cannot be understood in isolation from the history of pervasive housing segregation. By keeping black families out of the better-off suburbs, segregation not only deprived them of the opportunity to build wealth through rising home equity, but contributed to (and was reinforced by) what urban scholars term the “spatial mismatch” between the neighborhoods where African Americans mostly lived, and the better suburban jobs they had difficulty accessing."
for Beta \/
"For black workers who were able to commute to work in the suburbs, higher commuting costs reduced incomes relative to incomes of whites. From 1959 to 2009, Chrysler operated its assembly plant in suburban Fenton. Black workers living in the St. Louis ghetto and unable to live near the plant spent up to an hour, each way, commuting. But many more black workers were simply unable to take jobs at the Chrysler plant because they could not get there. In the 1960s, Chrysler made a special effort to recruit black workers for a training program for production jobs. The program’s retention rate was only 40 percent, mostly because of absenteeism due to transportation difficulties.92 Today, the town of Fenton remains 96 percent white, less than 0.5 percent black."
@toasteroven, yes carpool, non-profit kickstarter kind of stuff, this way you don't need the government to approve, because they may not... I swear I'm not an idiot ;)
However one tragedy elicits riots, protests, looting, national media attention, comments from the president. death threats, cyberattacks, the creation of this thread, etc.
The other is business as usual..."
We're architects, we're supposed to be smarter than average 'merican! Don't call Burlgar a klansmen, even if you completely disagree with his opinion. My firm actually works with African American youths to mentor them and provide an outlet for those wanting to pursue engineering/architecture. The working single-mother story is so heart-breaking and so common. Blame history, blame society, blame economics but the only way change can happen is within. The REAL leaders in the African American community aren't the ones with the megaphones and they're constantly being drowned out by race baiters like Sharpton and Jackson who only want to profit from tragedies. We need to empower the individuals who actually want change and dedicate their lives to breaking the cycle of violence and poverty. There is no reason in 2014 that all cultures in the US can't prosper together.
No one can claim to have all the answers to this, but rioting and cherry-picking tragedies won't solve the underlying issues that continue to hold back the entire nation, not just one community.
wont go into details, but having been beaten by police myself for politely questioning their authority I can completely understand the anger on the streets. cops are mostly assholes, strippers are mostly goldiggers, and bankers are mostly greedy. the job attracts the personality, just sayin.
For anyone to suggest some kind of equivalency between murders of civilians, by civilians, and murders of civilians, by Police Officers - representatives of the "state", is immediately on shaky ground. The moral equivalency is beyond preposterous.
Now, I'm no fan of Al Sharpton, partly because my experience of Al goes back before many of you were likely born, but that you call him a "race baiter" and for what ever fucking reason bring Jackson into the discussion, when if memory serves, Jesse hasn't been seen, since his son had a mental break, only goes to provide additional evidence, that you are sounding more like Archie Bunker, than John Brown. Also, these families called Al Sharpton, why? Because, in case you are unaware, news media don't give a shit about black people, other than reporting on riots, or gang banging. Another thing, where do you get off? I mean really? Who made any of you HMFIC? Which one of you decided that you got to tell black people who can represent them in matters against the police brutality and murder?
Beta, nobody is telling black people who can represent them. I believe, and I think LITS4Formz believes, that black people should represent themselves in as positive manner as possible (such as peaceful protesting, which happens to be completely legal!) so not to perpetuate their stereotypes like those looters in Ferguson. I saw something that hit it on the head. Paraphrasing, "What better way to show your support for a dead kid and show opposition to police brutality than to loot and burn stores and flip cop cars?". It doesn't make sense. It's ridiculous to believe that will make things better.
Again, when people feel that justice is out of reach, whites don't give a shit about communities of color, you just can't be so naive as to think black Americans should observe the rules about protest. I mean, need I remind you, that the last time whites took part in this kind of protest was Boston Tea Party?
You can't decide how to play by the rules, when playing by the rules only keeps you being a victim.
As for "black people should represent themselves in as positive manner as possible", again, this kind of comment is absolutely horrible, the kind of paternalism, and subtle racism, is beyond absurd; who or how blacks in America should "represent" suggests you know more than communities of color. I mean, imagine the opposite, black people telling white people, you know, race baiting idiots like Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, and the entire Republican Party shouldn't represent you, because they're so obviously representing you negatively, and you know, Cliven Bundy and the other conservative KKK militias are contributing to the cycle of violence and should be banned....yeah, I'm sure white conservatives are ready to hear that.
olaf - in santiago, chile, bus transportation is operated by a whole bunch of private companies - often just one guy with a bus - historically in the US, many of the streetcar lines were different companies created by real estate developers. individual cars (uber and carpools) aren't very cost effective for moving a lot of people to work. buses are better, but need density in order to keep costs down.
As for "black people should represent themselves in as positive manner as possible", again, this kind of comment is absolutely horrible, the kind of paternalism, and subtle racism, is beyond absurd
Let's define paternalism- shall we?
the policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest.
A black friend of mine told me this joke: what's the worst day in harlem- father's day (b/c there are so many children born out of wedlock to no formal families and no fathers around...) And yet, African American's are not the poorest minority in the country. Statistically, white female-headed households are the poorest. I digress.
Is the former a stereotype? Absolutely! But 75% of stereotypes are true. There is definitely a sociological issue related to the above joke amid poor African-American communities. But it's not true BECAUSE they are African American. I don't care whether or not someone is blue, green red, etc. So do I agree with a PATERNALISM for those who need it? Absolutely... I don't want to pay taxes to raise someone else's kid. In Judaism, the greatest form of charity is giving someone a job- it's a higher form of charity than giving someone food. Why? B/c by having that person earn a living is more sustainable than leaching off of someone else's efforts. That person actually contributes back to the society.
From Websters: "the attitude or actions of a person, organization, etc., that protects people and gives them what they needbut does not give them any responsibility or freedom of choice."
Freedom of choice, being the optimal phrase.
The very idea that you and the other KKKlan are telling people who, and who cannot represent them, is by the very nature, both explicit, and implicit; paternalism. You want to tell black people, help black people, with your Klanvice, tell them to behave, make nice with whitey, and then tell black people they can't choose who they want? Tell me another definition, daddy Klan?
As for the other Klanitude, I'll let you, and your >quote<black friend>unquote< deal with the joke, and the going deep into your Klan-arithmetic to justify the percentages of truthiness in stereotypes.
I'll wager one percentage you've never considered, 99.9% of the people in your family probably agree with me; you're a deeply racist moron.
Bulgar, you zero, actually a number below zero, idea of what the fuck you're talking about. That you somehow went to some architecture program, and are possibly building shit people routinely occupy, scares the beejesus out of me. Please let me know what part of country you work in, so I can make sure to avoid all buildings in that "world".
You must think Frank Lloyd Wright is a number below zero too.... unlike me- he was actually a racist...
"Buried in all the gossip are some disturbing reminders about Wright’s worldview. A self-proclaimed pacifist, Wright continued to speak out against American involvement in World War II even as bombs fell on London. He was prone to making anti-Semitic and racist statements, and despite his close relationships with gay men in private he could be virulently anti-gay in public."
For the record, I worked as a high-school math tutor for disadvantaged latino and African American youth. So think twice before qualifying me in any particular way. I am sure that perhaps what I said was not the most politically correct response to a growing frustration most people have, but I assure you- for me ithe problem I am discussing has nothing to with race; it has to do with Class. Poverty and lack of education is the ultimate disease eating up our communities. I dont see educated African Americans with class looting... Oh wait- being educated and having class is "too white" of a concept and therefore paternalist in nature...Unfortunately, the discussion ended up becoming about race because the Furguson prostests were centered around a Black kid being shot by a White cop... I participated in a protest about the Eric Garner death and indictment verdict.mi think what happened to Eric Garner is horrible.. So please- hold your unduly qulification of my character to yourself...
Grammar, that's all you got? Grammar? I'm as white as they get, and I know what my white privilege affords me. What you don't seem to understand is you're a racist, I don't care what you say you did, you're a racist. Having "a black friend", going to a protest, doesn't change the fact you are a racist. I guarantee you one thing, you never shouted, at your Eric Garner protest; LET IT BURN! Am I right, my brother?
Who cares if Furguson is Burning! Let the savages kill themselves off... all we need is more impoverished and uneducated savages eating up our tax dollars...
Just re-reading those posts, and your other idiotic screed about the past, and slavery, as though nothing racist has happened in the past 45 or 50 years. You're about the dumbest person ever to immigrate to America.
you think that there are no non-black savages who are looting and destroying things?! You chose to read into what I wrote... And if you substituted the word savage with race, then you my friend, are thr racist- not me.
It would be simple for me to follow through with what i said, but you know what- I'm going to be the bigger man- its just a forum. Merry Christmas!
there is something deeply racist in your choice of words - "savages." A term used throughout history to justify britality and dehumanize blacks. White soccer riots are no more civil, but why are white soccer fans not refered to as "savages"?
rather we attribute such actions to psychological phenomena like "group think" while black bad behavior is attributed to anthropological, and biological inferiority. This is why your remarks are seen as racist.
I agree, not the best word choice, but anyone CAN be a savage. They were being savage when looting and burning, just like anyone else looting and burning and rioting are savage as well. It isn't particular to black people in Ferguson.
I guess I have to pay more attention to who my audience is ... but at the very basic level, the definition of savage combined with the actions of people (of any color) still makes sense. I did not mean it in a racist way.
That aside, the other thing I don't understand about this country is that everyone "wants to talk about race" (at least encourages it on TV and the news) yet every time people talk about it, it strikes such a chord that automatically everyone assumes someone is racist. African Americans criticize white culture all the time and that is never perceived as racist... so why can't white criticize the bad apples in the African American community without being perceived as racist?
i also think that b3 is wrong for accusing one of being a "racist" for expressing a racist opinion or saying racist words. thats an unfair leap of logic. I know plenty of non racist people who sometimes say racist offensive things. we are all imperfect humans. this notion that the world will be a better place by expressing surface perfection is flawed. I would rather a person live without filters, and instead debate and confront inner thoughts and biases that deal with the source of such opinions instead of simply editing the content to mask them.
political correctness is a form of denial of our inner thoughts. we need to be open to hear all opinions regardless of who is offended. allowing ones opinions to undergo scrutiny is how we learn, bu repressing and hiding those thoughts nothing is learned or gained.
Burglar, your observation is accurate. Everyone says, "Yes, we need an honest conversation about race." Except anyone who speaks their mind is shouted down and labeled a racist. It's always easier to talk about the problem than to give solutions. This labeling and dismissing is a relatively new phenomenon, we could at least speak our mind 5 years ago. Now, if you associate with anything other than the social media mob(which is an unbelievably small, but vocal minority) you are persecuted.
Please don't feed the trolls and cowards, people like b3tadine[sutures] get off on you defending yourself. The only way to deal with a troll is to ignore it and keep the conversation going.
This rant pretty much sums up what's going on...NSFW
"Political correctness" is another word for being polite and showing empathy. Are you guys really saying we can have a MORE productive conversation if we throw politeness and empathy out the window? No, thank you, but that's not a conversation I want to have.
Listen, if you tell me you want to talk to me about designing a house for you but you intend to refer to me in all of our conversations and communication as "Drafting Monkey" and "Throw Pillow Picker" because in *your* mind that's an honest and accurate term, do you think we're going to have a productive conversation and good working relationship?
all adam carolla said in that rant was that he thought kids should have fathers. which, in an of itself, is not a bad idea. it's not relevant to anything going on in this conversation though.
in the case of the kid who was shot in ferguson, his dad came out and said he wanted to the city to burn or something stupid like that, right? all adam carolla has to do is cuss a lot and sell a book to keep you entertained?
the 'racist' part comes in when you see the problem as white cops shooting black people and not even going to trial over it. saying it's ok for white cops to shoot black people because black people are savages come across as racist. saying it's ok for white cops to shoot black people because there are unrelated cases of black on black violence, which means to you black people are violent and should be shot. saying it's ok for the cop to shoot black people since he was scared and black people are scary comes across as racist. i'm not sure that's the idea that was intended to be conveyed, but it's kind of what's coming through.
it would be a more productive conversation if we didn't think of people as savages, when the people sworn to protect them are allowed to kill them with impunity.
so, you could say this was just a regular cop that shot a regular kid, and race wasn't a factor. but does that really makes sense to you? do you really think if an unarmed white kid was leaning into the car, the cop would have still shot him? it doesn't seem like that sort of scenario happens as often. a bunch of tea party nut jobs surrounded cops with actual guns and threatened the life of the officer, so the police told them to 'have a nice day' and left. why didn't the cop do that in this case?
I never said " it's ok for white cops to shoot black people because black people are savages." I never related being a savage to any race. I think that if white people burned things, they too would be classified as savages.
I will say though that the African American community (like the white community, like latino community, etc) has challenges, and many of these challenges stem from poverty and lack of education. Now, a lot of people may come and say- "well- and why do you think African American's have those challenges in the first place?" And my answer, would be - "I know- because 200+ years ago they were slaves under white people in the U.S. I completely understand that; but as I said in my previous post(s)- you can't continue to blame stuff that happened 200+ years ago to what is going on with your life today. You can't continue to pit blacks against whites based on stuff that happened in the past. We can never make any progress this way. And although some may think that a paternalist approach is racist- I happen to believe that the government can do some good if they took over the role of a parent in the absence of a parent. No kid likes being told what to do by their own parent, but in a long run, the hope is that the kid will turn out to be a decent human being. This is not to say that there aren't any examples of people without parents who have somehow been able make it on their own, but the government has to have a role, in the absence of good parenthood, to raise decent and law-abiding citizens. The way I believe this can happen most effectively is by overhauling the education system.
Donna, RE: Political Correctness being about "politeness and empathy":
“Be not intimidated...nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your liberties by any pretense of politeness, delicacy, or decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for hypocrisy, chicanery and cowardice.” ~John Adams
“Politeness. Now there's a poor man's virtue if ever there was one. What's so admirable about inoffensiveness, I should like to know. After all, it's easily achieved. One needs no particular talent to be polite. On the contrary, being nice is what's left when you've failed at everything else. People with ambition don't give a damn what other people think about them.” ~Diane Setterfield, The Thirteenth Tale
"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" ~Galations 4:16
the communities you're referring to as 'savage' might be acting so in part because the people sworn to protect them are instead killing them with impunity. there are impoverished white communities as well, and even white on white violence in those communities, but the police force in those areas often don't respond in the same manner.
as an example, look at the community portrayed in winter's bone. i know it's fictionalized, but that's kind of what white poverty looks like in a lot of communities. the cops don't solve problems by killing the people they're supposed to be protecting. rather they largely ignore the problems. also, you can look at the rancher in nevada who was allowed to threaten police officers and was not punished. that guy stole a lot more than a cigar.
when people who are white are consistently treated different than people who are black, it starts to look like race is the issue.
You're perpetuating the myth that the justice system and police in the USA treat black people more negatively than white people. The facts and data say that just isn't so.
I personally disagree with the tactics that police used against many African Americans. As I said previously- I also think it is tragic that Eric Garner died.
But in response to your comment - "when people who are white are consistently treated different than people who are black, it starts to look like race is the issue." here is what I would like to say:
Not to defend anyone who has this mentality, but the following is an argument that may explain the mindset of similar police officers:
When the government isn't doing enough to change how young African American youths grow up, what's the value of another African American life? Why should he let him get away when he will just become a recidivist and possibly grow to become even more dangerous and do something horrible to him, his family, neighborhood? What's the point of being civil with a people who have demonstrated a pattern of unacceptable behavior?
Yes- this attitude is racist and yes- I absolutely disagree with umbrella statements. But as a cop- you yourself probably aren't the brightest star in the sky and chose to make sense of things however you can in order to save your ass in the field.
Again though, I think that for everyone- education is the solution. The government though doesn't seem to give a shit about it. Instead, the government constantly comes up with quick-fixes much like how the scientific community is talking about global warming while the government's proposes to open a new pipeline in response.
is 'the slate star codex' a blog you commonly visit for information gwharton? scott s alexander (who's name isn't really scott s alexander) is someone you consider a well vetted source for statistics?
Telling the truth means speaking the truth, and if I use a term that intentional dismisses an entire group based on the actions of a few, I'm not speaking truthfully, I'm speaking lazily.
Shall I demolish your other two quotes just as simply? I actually do have some work to do today, so I'd rather wait til later.
Ferguson Is Burning
Nam great link, from your link
"Neighborhoods that appear to be integrated are almost always those in transition, either from mostly white to mostly black (like Ferguson), or from mostly black to increasingly white (like St. Louis’s gentrifying neighborhoods)."
again I reference the Representation Pavilion proposal, add transitional trends and policy explanations to this pavilion, like a Venice Bieniale - I bet they wouldn't let you build it once they knew what you were up to.
still reading article...
"A 1995 St. Louis newspaper report alleged that in some cases, speculators did not have initial African American buyers but instead bought homes in neighborhoods they anticipated turning into African American communities, and let the empty houses deteriorate to depress the value of others nearby.70 After neighbors were sufficiently panicked, speculators bought properties at reduced prices and then resold them at inflated prices to African Americans in desperate need of housing. Agents made large profits in this way. Once a block or neighborhood had been “busted” in this fashion, agents would proceed to the next block or neighborhood, using similar tactics. Some agents did not resell homes, but subdivided and rented them to black families."
"The lower incomes of African Americans today cannot be understood in isolation from the history of pervasive housing segregation. By keeping black families out of the better-off suburbs, segregation not only deprived them of the opportunity to build wealth through rising home equity, but contributed to (and was reinforced by) what urban scholars term the “spatial mismatch” between the neighborhoods where African Americans mostly lived, and the better suburban jobs they had difficulty accessing."
for Beta \/
"For black workers who were able to commute to work in the suburbs, higher commuting costs reduced incomes relative to incomes of whites. From 1959 to 2009, Chrysler operated its assembly plant in suburban Fenton. Black workers living in the St. Louis ghetto and unable to live near the plant spent up to an hour, each way, commuting. But many more black workers were simply unable to take jobs at the Chrysler plant because they could not get there. In the 1960s, Chrysler made a special effort to recruit black workers for a training program for production jobs. The program’s retention rate was only 40 percent, mostly because of absenteeism due to transportation difficulties.92 Today, the town of Fenton remains 96 percent white, less than 0.5 percent black."
@toasteroven, yes carpool, non-profit kickstarter kind of stuff, this way you don't need the government to approve, because they may not... I swear I'm not an idiot ;)
How little has changed in 25 years.
Divide and conquer. That's what the politicians and media do in this country. And the vast majority just keep shoveling down the stories their fed.
I posted this back in August...
"Here are three teens 18 and under who have been killed in Chicago since the shooting in Ferguson occurred.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-chicago-gun-violence-shootings-20140810-story.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-boy-17-fatally-shot-on-south-side-20140812-story.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-male-victim-killed-in-south-side-shooting-20140806-story.html
Both situations are TRAGIC.
However one tragedy elicits riots, protests, looting, national media attention, comments from the president. death threats, cyberattacks, the creation of this thread, etc.
The other is business as usual..."
We're architects, we're supposed to be smarter than average 'merican! Don't call Burlgar a klansmen, even if you completely disagree with his opinion. My firm actually works with African American youths to mentor them and provide an outlet for those wanting to pursue engineering/architecture. The working single-mother story is so heart-breaking and so common. Blame history, blame society, blame economics but the only way change can happen is within. The REAL leaders in the African American community aren't the ones with the megaphones and they're constantly being drowned out by race baiters like Sharpton and Jackson who only want to profit from tragedies. We need to empower the individuals who actually want change and dedicate their lives to breaking the cycle of violence and poverty. There is no reason in 2014 that all cultures in the US can't prosper together.
No one can claim to have all the answers to this, but rioting and cherry-picking tragedies won't solve the underlying issues that continue to hold back the entire nation, not just one community.
Stewart nailed it the other night.
wont go into details, but having been beaten by police myself for politely questioning their authority I can completely understand the anger on the streets. cops are mostly assholes, strippers are mostly goldiggers, and bankers are mostly greedy. the job attracts the personality, just sayin.
LITS4Formz... There's a lot I like about your post. The real work that needs doing takes far more effort and has no audience.
LITS4, are you black? I'm guessing you're not.
For anyone to suggest some kind of equivalency between murders of civilians, by civilians, and murders of civilians, by Police Officers - representatives of the "state", is immediately on shaky ground. The moral equivalency is beyond preposterous.
Now, I'm no fan of Al Sharpton, partly because my experience of Al goes back before many of you were likely born, but that you call him a "race baiter" and for what ever fucking reason bring Jackson into the discussion, when if memory serves, Jesse hasn't been seen, since his son had a mental break, only goes to provide additional evidence, that you are sounding more like Archie Bunker, than John Brown. Also, these families called Al Sharpton, why? Because, in case you are unaware, news media don't give a shit about black people, other than reporting on riots, or gang banging. Another thing, where do you get off? I mean really? Who made any of you HMFIC? Which one of you decided that you got to tell black people who can represent them in matters against the police brutality and murder?
You've got to be fucking kidding me.
Again, when people feel that justice is out of reach, whites don't give a shit about communities of color, you just can't be so naive as to think black Americans should observe the rules about protest. I mean, need I remind you, that the last time whites took part in this kind of protest was Boston Tea Party?
You can't decide how to play by the rules, when playing by the rules only keeps you being a victim.
As for "black people should represent themselves in as positive manner as possible", again, this kind of comment is absolutely horrible, the kind of paternalism, and subtle racism, is beyond absurd; who or how blacks in America should "represent" suggests you know more than communities of color. I mean, imagine the opposite, black people telling white people, you know, race baiting idiots like Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, and the entire Republican Party shouldn't represent you, because they're so obviously representing you negatively, and you know, Cliven Bundy and the other conservative KKK militias are contributing to the cycle of violence and should be banned....yeah, I'm sure white conservatives are ready to hear that.
olaf - in santiago, chile, bus transportation is operated by a whole bunch of private companies - often just one guy with a bus - historically in the US, many of the streetcar lines were different companies created by real estate developers. individual cars (uber and carpools) aren't very cost effective for moving a lot of people to work. buses are better, but need density in order to keep costs down.
@nam - decriminalizing jaywalking and protecting the rights of "vulnerable road users" is a good first step.
santiago's bus system USED to be completely privatized - now it's a public system.
As for "black people should represent themselves in as positive manner as possible", again, this kind of comment is absolutely horrible, the kind of paternalism, and subtle racism, is beyond absurd
Let's define paternalism- shall we?
the policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest.
A black friend of mine told me this joke: what's the worst day in harlem- father's day (b/c there are so many children born out of wedlock to no formal families and no fathers around...) And yet, African American's are not the poorest minority in the country. Statistically, white female-headed households are the poorest. I digress.
Is the former a stereotype? Absolutely! But 75% of stereotypes are true. There is definitely a sociological issue related to the above joke amid poor African-American communities. But it's not true BECAUSE they are African American. I don't care whether or not someone is blue, green red, etc. So do I agree with a PATERNALISM for those who need it? Absolutely... I don't want to pay taxes to raise someone else's kid. In Judaism, the greatest form of charity is giving someone a job- it's a higher form of charity than giving someone food. Why? B/c by having that person earn a living is more sustainable than leaching off of someone else's efforts. That person actually contributes back to the society.
Paternalism
From Websters: "the attitude or actions of a person, organization, etc., that protects people and gives them what they need but does not give them any responsibility or freedom of choice."
Freedom of choice, being the optimal phrase.
The very idea that you and the other KKKlan are telling people who, and who cannot represent them, is by the very nature, both explicit, and implicit; paternalism. You want to tell black people, help black people, with your Klanvice, tell them to behave, make nice with whitey, and then tell black people they can't choose who they want? Tell me another definition, daddy Klan?
As for the other Klanitude, I'll let you, and your >quote<black friend>unquote< deal with the joke, and the going deep into your Klan-arithmetic to justify the percentages of truthiness in stereotypes.
I'll wager one percentage you've never considered, 99.9% of the people in your family probably agree with me; you're a deeply racist moron.
Bulgar, you zero, actually a number below zero, idea of what the fuck you're talking about. That you somehow went to some architecture program, and are possibly building shit people routinely occupy, scares the beejesus out of me. Please let me know what part of country you work in, so I can make sure to avoid all buildings in that "world".
You must think Frank Lloyd Wright is a number below zero too.... unlike me- he was actually a racist...
"Buried in all the gossip are some disturbing reminders about Wright’s worldview. A self-proclaimed pacifist, Wright continued to speak out against American involvement in World War II even as bombs fell on London. He was prone to making anti-Semitic and racist statements, and despite his close relationships with gay men in private he could be virulently anti-gay in public."
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/books/review/Ouroussoff.t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
If you still live in Minnesota, stay away from this gas station built by Frank Lloyd Wright:
http://www.franklloydwrightsites.com/minnesota/cloquet/lindholmstation.htm
For a white guy, you take a lot of offense to what I say... by all the grammatical errors I see on your posts, I contend you are not even American.
For the record, I worked as a high-school math tutor for disadvantaged latino and African American youth. So think twice before qualifying me in any particular way. I am sure that perhaps what I said was not the most politically correct response to a growing frustration most people have, but I assure you- for me ithe problem I am discussing has nothing to with race; it has to do with Class. Poverty and lack of education is the ultimate disease eating up our communities. I dont see educated African Americans with class looting... Oh wait- being educated and having class is "too white" of a concept and therefore paternalist in nature...Unfortunately, the discussion ended up becoming about race because the Furguson prostests were centered around a Black kid being shot by a White cop... I participated in a protest about the Eric Garner death and indictment verdict.mi think what happened to Eric Garner is horrible.. So please- hold your unduly qulification of my character to yourself...
Grammar, that's all you got? Grammar? I'm as white as they get, and I know what my white privilege affords me. What you don't seem to understand is you're a racist, I don't care what you say you did, you're a racist. Having "a black friend", going to a protest, doesn't change the fact you are a racist. I guarantee you one thing, you never shouted, at your Eric Garner protest; LET IT BURN! Am I right, my brother?
Oh, by the way, where's my lawsuit?
BulgarBlogger
(History|Contact)
Nov 26, 14 9:34 am
who lights up a storm after a verdict? savages... people who have no regard for the law... its 2014 people! Get over your race complex!
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BulgarBlogger
(History|Contact)
Nov 26, 14 9:36 am
this WOULD NOT be a story if a black police officer shot a black kid or vice versa
And my personal favorite;
BulgarBlogger
(History|Contact)
Nov 26, 14 9:19 am
Who cares if Furguson is Burning! Let the savages kill themselves off... all we need is more impoverished and uneducated savages eating up our tax dollars...
Just re-reading those posts, and your other idiotic screed about the past, and slavery, as though nothing racist has happened in the past 45 or 50 years. You're about the dumbest person ever to immigrate to America.
you think that there are no non-black savages who are looting and destroying things?! You chose to read into what I wrote... And if you substituted the word savage with race, then you my friend, are thr racist- not me.
It would be simple for me to follow through with what i said, but you know what- I'm going to be the bigger man- its just a forum. Merry Christmas!
eat a dick racist.
Explain this simpleton;
Who cares if Furguson is Burning! Let the savages kill themselves off
Or, were you referring to the whites in this one;
who lights up a storm after a verdict? savages... people who have no regard for the law... its 2014 people! Get over your race complex!
I dont need to explain myself to anyone. I know who I am. And frankly- I dont think anyone else cares one way or another, other than you.
Yeah, I know who you are, your white hood was visible from the comfort of my laptop.
there is something deeply racist in your choice of words - "savages." A term used throughout history to justify britality and dehumanize blacks. White soccer riots are no more civil, but why are white soccer fans not refered to as "savages"?
rather we attribute such actions to psychological phenomena like "group think" while black bad behavior is attributed to anthropological, and biological inferiority. This is why your remarks are seen as racist.
I guess I have to pay more attention to who my audience is ... but at the very basic level, the definition of savage combined with the actions of people (of any color) still makes sense. I did not mean it in a racist way.
That aside, the other thing I don't understand about this country is that everyone "wants to talk about race" (at least encourages it on TV and the news) yet every time people talk about it, it strikes such a chord that automatically everyone assumes someone is racist. African Americans criticize white culture all the time and that is never perceived as racist... so why can't white criticize the bad apples in the African American community without being perceived as racist?
i also think that b3 is wrong for accusing one of being a "racist" for expressing a racist opinion or saying racist words. thats an unfair leap of logic. I know plenty of non racist people who sometimes say racist offensive things. we are all imperfect humans. this notion that the world will be a better place by expressing surface perfection is flawed. I would rather a person live without filters, and instead debate and confront inner thoughts and biases that deal with the source of such opinions instead of simply editing the content to mask them.
political correctness is a form of denial of our inner thoughts. we need to be open to hear all opinions regardless of who is offended. allowing ones opinions to undergo scrutiny is how we learn, bu repressing and hiding those thoughts nothing is learned or gained.
Burglar, your observation is accurate. Everyone says, "Yes, we need an honest conversation about race." Except anyone who speaks their mind is shouted down and labeled a racist. It's always easier to talk about the problem than to give solutions. This labeling and dismissing is a relatively new phenomenon, we could at least speak our mind 5 years ago. Now, if you associate with anything other than the social media mob(which is an unbelievably small, but vocal minority) you are persecuted.
Please don't feed the trolls and cowards, people like b3tadine[sutures] get off on you defending yourself. The only way to deal with a troll is to ignore it and keep the conversation going.
This rant pretty much sums up what's going on...NSFW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2Ve1wVuBGo
"Political correctness" is another word for being polite and showing empathy. Are you guys really saying we can have a MORE productive conversation if we throw politeness and empathy out the window? No, thank you, but that's not a conversation I want to have.
Listen, if you tell me you want to talk to me about designing a house for you but you intend to refer to me in all of our conversations and communication as "Drafting Monkey" and "Throw Pillow Picker" because in *your* mind that's an honest and accurate term, do you think we're going to have a productive conversation and good working relationship?
I look forward to the day in which whites and black can make fun of themselves in much the same way The Irish and English make fun of each other.
Americans LOVE to dance around issues. I don't get it... maybe that's why Simon Cowel was perceived as such an ASS.
all adam carolla said in that rant was that he thought kids should have fathers. which, in an of itself, is not a bad idea. it's not relevant to anything going on in this conversation though.
in the case of the kid who was shot in ferguson, his dad came out and said he wanted to the city to burn or something stupid like that, right? all adam carolla has to do is cuss a lot and sell a book to keep you entertained?
the 'racist' part comes in when you see the problem as white cops shooting black people and not even going to trial over it. saying it's ok for white cops to shoot black people because black people are savages come across as racist. saying it's ok for white cops to shoot black people because there are unrelated cases of black on black violence, which means to you black people are violent and should be shot. saying it's ok for the cop to shoot black people since he was scared and black people are scary comes across as racist. i'm not sure that's the idea that was intended to be conveyed, but it's kind of what's coming through.
it would be a more productive conversation if we didn't think of people as savages, when the people sworn to protect them are allowed to kill them with impunity.
so, you could say this was just a regular cop that shot a regular kid, and race wasn't a factor. but does that really makes sense to you? do you really think if an unarmed white kid was leaning into the car, the cop would have still shot him? it doesn't seem like that sort of scenario happens as often. a bunch of tea party nut jobs surrounded cops with actual guns and threatened the life of the officer, so the police told them to 'have a nice day' and left. why didn't the cop do that in this case?
woah... wait a minute-
I never said " it's ok for white cops to shoot black people because black people are savages." I never related being a savage to any race. I think that if white people burned things, they too would be classified as savages.
I will say though that the African American community (like the white community, like latino community, etc) has challenges, and many of these challenges stem from poverty and lack of education. Now, a lot of people may come and say- "well- and why do you think African American's have those challenges in the first place?" And my answer, would be - "I know- because 200+ years ago they were slaves under white people in the U.S. I completely understand that; but as I said in my previous post(s)- you can't continue to blame stuff that happened 200+ years ago to what is going on with your life today. You can't continue to pit blacks against whites based on stuff that happened in the past. We can never make any progress this way. And although some may think that a paternalist approach is racist- I happen to believe that the government can do some good if they took over the role of a parent in the absence of a parent. No kid likes being told what to do by their own parent, but in a long run, the hope is that the kid will turn out to be a decent human being. This is not to say that there aren't any examples of people without parents who have somehow been able make it on their own, but the government has to have a role, in the absence of good parenthood, to raise decent and law-abiding citizens. The way I believe this can happen most effectively is by overhauling the education system.
Donna, RE: Political Correctness being about "politeness and empathy":
“Be not intimidated...nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your liberties by any pretense of politeness, delicacy, or decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for hypocrisy, chicanery and cowardice.” ~John Adams
“Politeness. Now there's a poor man's virtue if ever there was one. What's so admirable about inoffensiveness, I should like to know. After all, it's easily achieved. One needs no particular talent to be polite. On the contrary, being nice is what's left when you've failed at everything else. People with ambition don't give a damn what other people think about them.” ~Diane Setterfield, The Thirteenth Tale
"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" ~Galations 4:16
the communities you're referring to as 'savage' might be acting so in part because the people sworn to protect them are instead killing them with impunity. there are impoverished white communities as well, and even white on white violence in those communities, but the police force in those areas often don't respond in the same manner.
as an example, look at the community portrayed in winter's bone. i know it's fictionalized, but that's kind of what white poverty looks like in a lot of communities. the cops don't solve problems by killing the people they're supposed to be protecting. rather they largely ignore the problems. also, you can look at the rancher in nevada who was allowed to threaten police officers and was not punished. that guy stole a lot more than a cigar.
when people who are white are consistently treated different than people who are black, it starts to look like race is the issue.
curtkram,
You're perpetuating the myth that the justice system and police in the USA treat black people more negatively than white people. The facts and data say that just isn't so.
http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/25/race-and-justice-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/
In fact, there seems to be some bias among police toward NOT shooting black people.
I personally disagree with the tactics that police used against many African Americans. As I said previously- I also think it is tragic that Eric Garner died.
But in response to your comment - "when people who are white are consistently treated different than people who are black, it starts to look like race is the issue." here is what I would like to say:
Not to defend anyone who has this mentality, but the following is an argument that may explain the mindset of similar police officers:
When the government isn't doing enough to change how young African American youths grow up, what's the value of another African American life? Why should he let him get away when he will just become a recidivist and possibly grow to become even more dangerous and do something horrible to him, his family, neighborhood? What's the point of being civil with a people who have demonstrated a pattern of unacceptable behavior?
Yes- this attitude is racist and yes- I absolutely disagree with umbrella statements. But as a cop- you yourself probably aren't the brightest star in the sky and chose to make sense of things however you can in order to save your ass in the field.
Again though, I think that for everyone- education is the solution. The government though doesn't seem to give a shit about it. Instead, the government constantly comes up with quick-fixes much like how the scientific community is talking about global warming while the government's proposes to open a new pipeline in response.
is 'the slate star codex' a blog you commonly visit for information gwharton? scott s alexander (who's name isn't really scott s alexander) is someone you consider a well vetted source for statistics?
gwharton, regarding your third quote:
Telling the truth means speaking the truth, and if I use a term that intentional dismisses an entire group based on the actions of a few, I'm not speaking truthfully, I'm speaking lazily.
Shall I demolish your other two quotes just as simply? I actually do have some work to do today, so I'd rather wait til later.
"As long as race is defined, there will be difference. Don't define race, and equality will be closer to being achieved."
Thank you CD.Arch
This is exactly what those who benefit from racial division want, us fighting each other instead of working together.
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