Ok to be short, we are currently working on a simple housing project. The only trick: the brick façade of the building is continuing on the roof to show an uniform material on the whole volume.
The idea is pretty simple to understand, but the technical aspects are starting to be a more compex deal: the only two solutions we've found right now are to replace the bricks with tiles of the same color and material (hard to find but possible), or to cover a standard isolated and dry roof with an overlay of the same bricks.
I'm having a hard time to find details and references on such a technical solution.
Does anyone know a similar project build, and moreover, has tpicture or drawings for this solutions?
I'm, very oddly, also working on a similar problem. the only thing I've been able to find is putting brick pavers over your typical waterproofed concrete deck - I'd contact a liquid-applied waterproofing rep to see if they might be able to come up with something... but you might end up having to think about water running behind the brick... the water is going to want to sit on the brick and grout - and even if it's sealed you'll have to reseal it every few years... curious as to other's thoughts...
thanks elinor - just looks like brick stacked on top of poured concrete structure - the roof is just your typical brick wall detail... interesting project...
there's also sigurd lewerentz's churches - but I think he used a metal roof with a very thin profile at the edge...
Is the roof meant to be accessible? If yes, then concrete pavers supported by pedestals over a roofing system is the way to go (you can get custom pavers cast that resemble brick coarsings). If no, then you could get some kind of a clay tile product that matches your brick walls. Just don't wak on them!
In neither case are you to seal or grout the joints. It will lead to eventual cracking of your tile product.
toast, that cuban project looks awesome! it is a sloped roof condition nonetheless.
There's a reason why we don't wrap our wall finishes over the roof. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it. For now, we leave the practice to students with rudimentary sketchup skills :)
rusty - in that cuban project there's still some kind of termination detail at the roof edge.
I agree about the difficulty of wrapping wall finishes over the roof - the water needs to go someplace, so there's going to be some kind of roof edge detail, but we spend all this time trying to hide things to show some kind of uniform material surface (like we've carved the building out of styrofoam or wax). There is a lot of potential to express and articulate this condition in interesting ways - yet it seems like only the traditionalists and really boring technical people really seem to understand how to keep water out - (no offense to all you boring traditionalists and technical people)... IMO - same reason why you end up with solid brick surfaces with these horrible expansion joints right in the middle of the wall - like whoever designed it had no f-ing clue the limitations of the material they were putting on their facade (and the REAL reason for pilasters and reveals). caulk is not a finish material.
I hear ya toast. To be fair, there are plenty of adventurous architects who take technical execution seriously. It's just that waterproofing details don't sell books and magazines, and students of architecture are too young to appreciate them.
On a flat roof, you can remove the water via drains, although a parapet is still desirable on the edge (so that pooled water during heavy storms doesn't destroy your wall assembly).
If I was trying to do a building that's wrapped in a single material, I'd work backwards. If a 2'x2' paver tile is my design limitation, then I'd try use similar material (mechanically anchored panels) for my wall finishes. Brick just looks like the most ungrateful material to do this in.
what about continuous shingle roofing/ wall siding? wouldn't that be an exception to your critique, rusty? ...and a nice precedent for a monolithic appearance?
(assuming you had a substantial roof slope and good perimeter drains, of course...)
oh, and not to derail further, but the few things i've read about this house cite the roof material as 'plaster'. stucco, perhaps?would love to know how it works if anyone has some info...
"If I was trying to do a building that's wrapped in a single material, I'd work backwards. If a 2'x2' paver tile is my design limitation, then I'd try use similar material (mechanically anchored panels) for my wall finishes. Brick just looks like the most ungrateful material to do this in."
Right -- or, put another way, "It's not nice to fool Mother Nature !" Didn't modernism make plain what builders have always known, that materials need to be expressed for what they are, and that this isn't just an aesthetic nicety but a material reality ?
Or is modernism -- or even architecture as a responsible building art -- dead ? Are we just playing with wallpaper now, somehow reflecting the careless ease with which we draw stuff, and make it look "real" ?
"(you can get custom pavers cast that resemble brick coursings)" Grrr.
Sorry -- must be Grouchy Monday, or something, here on the west coast . . .
Yes, brick is just a cladding material these days, but it's so much more. Modern building is a lot more energy efficient and weathertight than its grandfather of yesteryear. Are you familiar with the concept of protected roofing membrane? The membrane does an amazing job at waterproofing, yet is susceptible to UV and physical damage. Thus you 'protect' it with either pavers, or ballast, or other decking product.
Modern building science utilizes all kinds of rubbery, gooey, stretchy materials that come with amazing performance specs. Yet, they need to be physically protected. Enter what we refer to as cladding. This cladding can be as traditional or as forward thinking as you want it to be. None of it will communicate what the structure is actually made of. It doesn't have to anymore.
The sooner you liberate yourself from the notions of how three little piggies used to build it, the happier designer you will become.
I knew we were not gonna be the only ones facing the problem. The note about the oddliness of the idea (brick wall on arooftop) is right. In our case, it was meant to brak the continuity of the zinc roof in Paris with a small (originally) twist. Now, it's true that a good reason not to do this is that bricks are made to do walls.
And many others things are originally made to do something and designers, ingeeners or architects make them do something else for the purpose of progress, or just for fun. To study such a problem also would proove it possible to cover a roof with virtually anything, which opens up new perspectives for design. well at least that's kind of my opinion.
Toasteroven, I only knew about sigurd lewerentz's churches so thanks for the other examples you gave. Hopefully we'll get somewhere. if I come across another example I'll post it here. Thanks to all for the comments and help!
wasn't a roof application, but gehry's office worked out a way to panelize and 'form' face brick in a big curvy frame at the vontz center in cincinnati. you might see if there are any useful details that have been published from that.
also, seems like rolling the wall brick up over the cornice edge and making a transition to a matching paver, with a control-joint-looking change of system would be the way. pavers on a pedestal over a roof system isn't exotic, nor is a corbelled brick parapet. strategically making the transition is the key.
j.webb on close inspection that project appears to be using thin brick that's installed in similar way wall tile is installed. You can see lots of damage to brick at the corner from water.
looks like the tiles came off the door. i would like to see the details of some of those projects. anyone know if they are out there for public consumption?
Thanks rutger, excellent reference. And thanks again James, for reminding us of this cute early mvrdv project! And I do agree with jump. I'd love to see the details. You can kind of guess the roof over roof principle in the pdf of the house hanendick that rutger mentionned though.
they are either quarry tiles or thin bricks. i would agree this is the way to go. but as noted above, sloped roofs without substantial enough eaves aren't necessarily a good idea in a wet climate. the integrated gutter can only do so much.
james - perfect example of my rather bad attempt at explaining what happens without some kind of break at the roof edge. I can imagine the owners calling up the architect and asking why water is coming in at the window headers...
oh well - as long as it looked good when they photographed it...
I would agree with both opinions, but James is definitely right , "client wise" i mean. The "gutter" (is that the english word" is necessary at the edge of the roof, and with these new standards of external insulation+ second skin, it becomes easier to hide it. If you get the chance to scan this detail james, thanks a lot. If not I'll try to get my hands on this El croquis issue. Thanks for the help. Now, the tricky part starts: I've figured out a possible detail, now I have to convince the conformity engineer and the client we can do it that way, and find a constructur that won't run away when he sees the detail, or ask for 100 times the price it should cost...
Just to guess, since you can see an opening in the concrete, maybe for some kind of ventilation grid or something, it's probably there to replace the regular insultation that's typically supported by the concrete. Why is this opening there is stil a question...
I've seen epoxy used in prefabbed and block concrete construction as anti-bucking and anti-torsion solutions usually in conjunction with furring strips and channel beams. Baffled by what it could be.
but the point raised earlier about material honesty is interesting with brick. i also used to think that but in the case of brick (in NL at least) it is just a cladding, it isn't taking any load and so if want a house look like brick it makes more sense to use tiles that look like bricks. why carry the extra load??
look at vals, that lovely slate is also only thin although we all read it as momumental.
I was talking about the detail you posted. It shows above the gutter a 10 cm by 25 cm strip of epoxy filling in the insulation cavity with an interruption in the concrete.
The detail section posted above perpendicularly intersects on the side with the overhang. The epoxy gap in question should be about 3-4 bricks above the gutter on the roof line shown above.
JJR, I wouldn't over-analyze that detail. It leaves a lot of basic information out of it. Actually, the detail is so bad, it's no wonder the structure looks like it's about to fall apart if you spit on it.
what you don't think that detail is as clear as clear can be, rusty? but it's MVRDV!
i can't figure it out either. maybe it just never got built that way (with the plastic insert block thingy) because it made no sense in reality.
i wonder if these huts were intended to be temporary?
hm, no never mind, they did the same thing with those houses. maybe they like stains. looks good in photos regardless, and that is all that counts right. i suppose if i were to try this i would be sure to build in a drip one way or another. does not need to be done with a traditional overhang if time is spent on the deal.
I think that's the SD version of the detail (a.k.a. wishful thinking version).
Note on the picture above, the screens are held up permanently with wire. So much for "gato hidraulico" making them operable. Thus that whole part of the detail is b.s. Clearly the wall brick is held up by something in real life (over the openings). In the drawing, nothing is holding up the brick. Placing brick right up against the insulation is a very bad idea. You are creating a sealed system thats's prone to brick damage (which is the case judging by the photos). I could go on... thermal bridging, roofing wtf, etc...
I do like that the structure is pre-fab precast. Maybe once all the brick falls off and winds blow away the insulation, the leftovers will actually look cool.
I'm trying not to but I don't ever think I've seen a detail basically say, "jam this giant hole with epoxy."
I'm actually having fun just trying to imagine someone trying to furiously mix batches of epoxy while trying to smear it upside-down onto a roof. I'm sure someone has invented a high-viscosity epoxy for exactly this purpose.
Also, I was going to point out that the operable screens are rendered completely worthless by the fact that the drain pipe for the roof comes through the side of the window frame. So, even if they weren't attached, I'm not sure it would be possible to close the screens.
I also don't get the drain pipe. This area looks like it is in a place cold enough to have ice or icicles right? Wouldn't those pipes burst pretty quickly with a combination of snow melting on the roof and collecting in the frozen pipes? Wouldn't it have just been better to end the gutter as a hole in the wall extending an inch out or so on the side?
The rather inelegant pipe combined with the dorky light ruin the building for me.
Brick covered roof
First post on new archinect yay!
Ok to be short, we are currently working on a simple housing project. The only trick: the brick façade of the building is continuing on the roof to show an uniform material on the whole volume.
The idea is pretty simple to understand, but the technical aspects are starting to be a more compex deal: the only two solutions we've found right now are to replace the bricks with tiles of the same color and material (hard to find but possible), or to cover a standard isolated and dry roof with an overlay of the same bricks.
I'm having a hard time to find details and references on such a technical solution.
Does anyone know a similar project build, and moreover, has tpicture or drawings for this solutions?
Thanks yall
French
I'm, very oddly, also working on a similar problem. the only thing I've been able to find is putting brick pavers over your typical waterproofed concrete deck - I'd contact a liquid-applied waterproofing rep to see if they might be able to come up with something... but you might end up having to think about water running behind the brick... the water is going to want to sit on the brick and grout - and even if it's sealed you'll have to reseal it every few years... curious as to other's thoughts...
there is this project:
http://www.archdaily.com/90028/pixel-house-mass-studies-and-slade-architecture/
i assume it's some kind of rainscreen solution, but i'm sure you can find some details somewhere...
thanks elinor - just looks like brick stacked on top of poured concrete structure - the roof is just your typical brick wall detail... interesting project...
there's also sigurd lewerentz's churches - but I think he used a metal roof with a very thin profile at the edge...
Is the roof meant to be accessible? If yes, then concrete pavers supported by pedestals over a roofing system is the way to go (you can get custom pavers cast that resemble brick coarsings). If no, then you could get some kind of a clay tile product that matches your brick walls. Just don't wak on them!
In neither case are you to seal or grout the joints. It will lead to eventual cracking of your tile product.
more stuff:
cuban art schools by former gaudi mason - using trimbel vaulting...
toast, that cuban project looks awesome! it is a sloped roof condition nonetheless.
There's a reason why we don't wrap our wall finishes over the roof. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it. For now, we leave the practice to students with rudimentary sketchup skills :)
one more - more about structural masonry and vaulting - but some good diagrams about technique...
Thanks for the new resourse Mr. Oven! It should fit in nicely with this book. Building Construction Before Mechanization By John Fitchen
rusty - in that cuban project there's still some kind of termination detail at the roof edge.
I agree about the difficulty of wrapping wall finishes over the roof - the water needs to go someplace, so there's going to be some kind of roof edge detail, but we spend all this time trying to hide things to show some kind of uniform material surface (like we've carved the building out of styrofoam or wax). There is a lot of potential to express and articulate this condition in interesting ways - yet it seems like only the traditionalists and really boring technical people really seem to understand how to keep water out - (no offense to all you boring traditionalists and technical people)... IMO - same reason why you end up with solid brick surfaces with these horrible expansion joints right in the middle of the wall - like whoever designed it had no f-ing clue the limitations of the material they were putting on their facade (and the REAL reason for pilasters and reveals). caulk is not a finish material.
end of rant.
I hear ya toast. To be fair, there are plenty of adventurous architects who take technical execution seriously. It's just that waterproofing details don't sell books and magazines, and students of architecture are too young to appreciate them.
On a flat roof, you can remove the water via drains, although a parapet is still desirable on the edge (so that pooled water during heavy storms doesn't destroy your wall assembly).
If I was trying to do a building that's wrapped in a single material, I'd work backwards. If a 2'x2' paver tile is my design limitation, then I'd try use similar material (mechanically anchored panels) for my wall finishes. Brick just looks like the most ungrateful material to do this in.
what about continuous shingle roofing/ wall siding? wouldn't that be an exception to your critique, rusty? ...and a nice precedent for a monolithic appearance?
(assuming you had a substantial roof slope and good perimeter drains, of course...)
agreed, brick doesn't make it easy...
oh, and not to derail further, but the few things i've read about this house cite the roof material as 'plaster'. stucco, perhaps?would love to know how it works if anyone has some info...
http://www.archdaily.com/118906/house-in-leiria-aires-mateus/
elinor, if you're building in California (let's say) you can do anything. Just cover your floor with pots and pans once a year when it rains.
In the north-east, you gotta differentiate sloped roofs and flat roofs as fundamentally different concepts.
so you're specifically discussing flat roofs...got it. ( i usually read these things while multi-tasking...)
"It's not a wall. It's not a roof. It's a woof!!"
Maybe the OP is talking about a woof. Those french people are sometimes hard to understand.
"If I was trying to do a building that's wrapped in a single material, I'd work backwards. If a 2'x2' paver tile is my design limitation, then I'd try use similar material (mechanically anchored panels) for my wall finishes. Brick just looks like the most ungrateful material to do this in."
Right -- or, put another way, "It's not nice to fool Mother Nature !" Didn't modernism make plain what builders have always known, that materials need to be expressed for what they are, and that this isn't just an aesthetic nicety but a material reality ?
Or is modernism -- or even architecture as a responsible building art -- dead ? Are we just playing with wallpaper now, somehow reflecting the careless ease with which we draw stuff, and make it look "real" ?
"(you can get custom pavers cast that resemble brick coursings)" Grrr.
Sorry -- must be Grouchy Monday, or something, here on the west coast . . .
SDR, have some faith in post post post modernism.
Yes, brick is just a cladding material these days, but it's so much more. Modern building is a lot more energy efficient and weathertight than its grandfather of yesteryear. Are you familiar with the concept of protected roofing membrane? The membrane does an amazing job at waterproofing, yet is susceptible to UV and physical damage. Thus you 'protect' it with either pavers, or ballast, or other decking product.
Modern building science utilizes all kinds of rubbery, gooey, stretchy materials that come with amazing performance specs. Yet, they need to be physically protected. Enter what we refer to as cladding. This cladding can be as traditional or as forward thinking as you want it to be. None of it will communicate what the structure is actually made of. It doesn't have to anymore.
The sooner you liberate yourself from the notions of how three little piggies used to build it, the happier designer you will become.
too true. that whole expressive structure thing was never particularly useful as a guide for anything, including good building tech.
wow, lots of posts to read suddenly!
I knew we were not gonna be the only ones facing the problem. The note about the oddliness of the idea (brick wall on arooftop) is right. In our case, it was meant to brak the continuity of the zinc roof in Paris with a small (originally) twist. Now, it's true that a good reason not to do this is that bricks are made to do walls.
And many others things are originally made to do something and designers, ingeeners or architects make them do something else for the purpose of progress, or just for fun. To study such a problem also would proove it possible to cover a roof with virtually anything, which opens up new perspectives for design. well at least that's kind of my opinion.
Toasteroven, I only knew about sigurd lewerentz's churches so thanks for the other examples you gave. Hopefully we'll get somewhere. if I come across another example I'll post it here. Thanks to all for the comments and help!
Oh and thanks for the woof rusty. A new word in my limited dictionnary. I already had the stramp, but I like this one.
This will answer all your questions.
wasn't a roof application, but gehry's office worked out a way to panelize and 'form' face brick in a big curvy frame at the vontz center in cincinnati. you might see if there are any useful details that have been published from that.
also, seems like rolling the wall brick up over the cornice edge and making a transition to a matching paver, with a control-joint-looking change of system would be the way. pavers on a pedestal over a roof system isn't exotic, nor is a corbelled brick parapet. strategically making the transition is the key.
This house by JagerJanssen has a brick roof
more on flickr
and pdf
an early on of mrdv also does the brick wrapping thing
http://www.flickr.com/photos/doctorcasino/2989565527/
pretty sure an el croquis has details on it
j.webb on close inspection that project appears to be using thin brick that's installed in similar way wall tile is installed. You can see lots of damage to brick at the corner from water.
looks like the tiles came off the door. i would like to see the details of some of those projects. anyone know if they are out there for public consumption?
Thanks rutger, excellent reference. And thanks again James, for reminding us of this cute early mvrdv project! And I do agree with jump. I'd love to see the details. You can kind of guess the roof over roof principle in the pdf of the house hanendick that rutger mentionned though.
they are either quarry tiles or thin bricks. i would agree this is the way to go. but as noted above, sloped roofs without substantial enough eaves aren't necessarily a good idea in a wet climate. the integrated gutter can only do so much.
page 66 of El Croquis 86 has a detail through the brick woof.
it is actually full bricks sitting on insulation on a conc structure, when i have a time i'll scan and post it.
the recessed gutter looks very small, and photos indicate that it isn't weathering well.
but i must add although mvrdv are admired for some things, their detailing is not one of them
http://pytr75.blogspot.com/2008/02/toen-en-nu.html
i meant to post this link re mvrdv details
http://trendbeheer.com/2008/02/19/urbane-studietocht-ypenburg/
james - perfect example of my rather bad attempt at explaining what happens without some kind of break at the roof edge. I can imagine the owners calling up the architect and asking why water is coming in at the window headers...
oh well - as long as it looked good when they photographed it...
Well, I for one find black mold wall stains sexy! The trick is convincing the client that was the intent from the start.
Don't even get me started EIFS failure. fap fap fap
I would agree with both opinions, but James is definitely right , "client wise" i mean. The "gutter" (is that the english word" is necessary at the edge of the roof, and with these new standards of external insulation+ second skin, it becomes easier to hide it. If you get the chance to scan this detail james, thanks a lot. If not I'll try to get my hands on this El croquis issue. Thanks for the help. Now, the tricky part starts: I've figured out a possible detail, now I have to convince the conformity engineer and the client we can do it that way, and find a constructur that won't run away when he sees the detail, or ask for 100 times the price it should cost...
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/artifice/5693102566/" title="Untitled by p2an, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5024/5693102566_a112bfa448.jpg" width="374" height="500" alt=""></a>
crap!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/artifice/5693102566/in/photostream
Thanks a lot James!
Dumb question but what is the epoxy for?
Just to guess, since you can see an opening in the concrete, maybe for some kind of ventilation grid or something, it's probably there to replace the regular insultation that's typically supported by the concrete. Why is this opening there is stil a question...
there are drilled holes in the bricks in a couple of places you can see them in the middle top of this image
http://www.flickr.com/photos/doctorcasino/2989564809/in/photostream/
I've seen epoxy used in prefabbed and block concrete construction as anti-bucking and anti-torsion solutions usually in conjunction with furring strips and channel beams. Baffled by what it could be.
but the point raised earlier about material honesty is interesting with brick. i also used to think that but in the case of brick (in NL at least) it is just a cladding, it isn't taking any load and so if want a house look like brick it makes more sense to use tiles that look like bricks. why carry the extra load??
look at vals, that lovely slate is also only thin although we all read it as momumental.
I see that Cooler James.
I was talking about the detail you posted. It shows above the gutter a 10 cm by 25 cm strip of epoxy filling in the insulation cavity with an interruption in the concrete.
i guess the idea is that light filters through the holes in the bricks, JJR. it's hard to say for sure if that is it or not.
totally true james webb. honesty and structure and materials seldom works for realsy. except maybe the manadnock building.
The detail section posted above perpendicularly intersects on the side with the overhang. The epoxy gap in question should be about 3-4 bricks above the gutter on the roof line shown above.
JJR, I wouldn't over-analyze that detail. It leaves a lot of basic information out of it. Actually, the detail is so bad, it's no wonder the structure looks like it's about to fall apart if you spit on it.
what you don't think that detail is as clear as clear can be, rusty? but it's MVRDV!
i can't figure it out either. maybe it just never got built that way (with the plastic insert block thingy) because it made no sense in reality.
i wonder if these huts were intended to be temporary?
hm, no never mind, they did the same thing with those houses. maybe they like stains. looks good in photos regardless, and that is all that counts right. i suppose if i were to try this i would be sure to build in a drip one way or another. does not need to be done with a traditional overhang if time is spent on the deal.
I think that's the SD version of the detail (a.k.a. wishful thinking version).
Note on the picture above, the screens are held up permanently with wire. So much for "gato hidraulico" making them operable. Thus that whole part of the detail is b.s. Clearly the wall brick is held up by something in real life (over the openings). In the drawing, nothing is holding up the brick. Placing brick right up against the insulation is a very bad idea. You are creating a sealed system thats's prone to brick damage (which is the case judging by the photos). I could go on... thermal bridging, roofing wtf, etc...
I do like that the structure is pre-fab precast. Maybe once all the brick falls off and winds blow away the insulation, the leftovers will actually look cool.
I'm trying not to but I don't ever think I've seen a detail basically say, "jam this giant hole with epoxy."
I'm actually having fun just trying to imagine someone trying to furiously mix batches of epoxy while trying to smear it upside-down onto a roof. I'm sure someone has invented a high-viscosity epoxy for exactly this purpose.
Also, I was going to point out that the operable screens are rendered completely worthless by the fact that the drain pipe for the roof comes through the side of the window frame. So, even if they weren't attached, I'm not sure it would be possible to close the screens.
I also don't get the drain pipe. This area looks like it is in a place cold enough to have ice or icicles right? Wouldn't those pipes burst pretty quickly with a combination of snow melting on the roof and collecting in the frozen pipes? Wouldn't it have just been better to end the gutter as a hole in the wall extending an inch out or so on the side?
The rather inelegant pipe combined with the dorky light ruin the building for me.
good catch on the drain pipes, JJR.
more recent image of the project shows that the building totally aged as designed.
*grin*
is the whole thing caving in on the left side? look closely at the brick coursing.
I noticed. That's why I'm already working on the renovation proposal. I think it needs more azalea bushes.
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