I just saw a picture of Derby pie in Parade magazine. I've never heard out if. Of course, I immediately thought of Steven, but Donna, since you're eating one, please elaborate.
that was enlightening discussion about what it takes to teach in architecture. over the years i have gradually come to see the a phd is not enough; that a licence and phd is not enough; that a licence and phd and publications is not enough. i have no idea what IS enough but it seems to involve another 10 years of working in office and publishing articles ;-)
i also agree that after finishing phd the amount i did not know with just m.arch is in hindsight so crazy obvious. not sure that means a phd should be required for teaching but if teachers are supposed to have depth of knowledge it seems to be one way to be pretty sure they have it - just as a baseline....
PhD's are definitely a degree waaay beyond, but what about teaching skills? How do you verify that someone has the ability to impart not only knowledge but a mode of creative thinking to another person? I think I'm not a very good teacher, though I am a decent storyteller. I think we've had the experience of hearing someone talk who is obviously much, much smarter than we are, but that person has no way of distilling that knowledge into a form that other people can use.
snook, yes, Dad made my Old Fashioned, and Sarah Derby Pie is a brand name for a pecan pie made with chocolate. Derby Pie is trademarked, but people use it like Kleenex, apparently.
i have no idea what IS enough but it seems to involve another 10 years of working in office and publishing articles
I know I will get shit for this but that's never stopped me before. ;)
I don't think a master's degree, a doctorate's or a license (in whatever profession) is necessary to be a professor at a higher education institution such as a university.
I think the only thing necessary for anyone to be a professor or instruction at a higher education institution is having a widely-recognized opinion, based on direct or indirect supporting facts, on a subject with sufficient expertise and depth. Notice that I said recognized and not necessarily respected— that are plenty of good experts out there that challenge many fields acting solely as les efants terribles and provocateurs.
Of course, the only way to be recognized, as a genius, asshole or asshole-genius, is to be published over in a wide range of mediums; traditional (newspapers, magazines), academic (journals, books, textbooks) or new media (websites, blogs).
By focusing on the traditional rigid institution and rigor of academia, it's beginning to seem like we're often overlooking newer pedestrian innovation and methodology that happens at frantic and manic pace in the 21st-century.
maybe there needs to be some kind of professional exchange program between university profs and primary and secondary ed teachers - you guys will get classroom management techniques and some basic understanding of education theory so that you'll become better teachers, and they'll get access to advanced knowledge and cutting edge research that they can use as part of their lessons. win/win?
university profs are typically horrible teachers. I don't know why college is the only point in our education system where the teachers aren't actually required to be trained in education. a f-ing kindergarten teacher in my city's school district is required to have a masters degree in education - an advanced degree in education is required to teach a bunch f-ing 5 year olds. you guys have PhDs on how to conduct research, not how to teach.
I should say: I think our resident PhDs here are probably very, very good teachers, based on how well and generously you all explain things so well here on the 'nect.
Teaching design is different, though. Very challenging.
at the phd program at penn, we at least have a nominal amount of being taught to teach... we are required to TA for at least a year and (theoretically at least) the professor that we are teaching for is supposed to supervise our teaching to a certain degree... the last semester that i TAed the professor came to one of the discussion sections that are run by the TAs each week both to observe and help out... that was extremely helpful in getting feedback on my teaching...
My wife got more practical/pragmatic info about being an educator during her post-doc than during her PhD. So I have coach at home who has been trained in the myriad aspects of teaching in higher-ed, plus several mentors at work to fall back on. That said, the advice I got for my first day of teaching was to 'teach from authority' - whatever that's supposed to mean. So I've been relying on my own expertise in sustainability and blending the best of the techniques I witnessed as a student. That said, Kipnis holds a special influence in teaching me what NOT to EVER do as a teacher.
I also come from a family of educators (about half my cousins/aunts/uncles/grandparents are/were teachers) so maybe it runs in my genes. (the other half were all professionals of some sort)
For me, what matters most is giving a damn about my students (and giving the same about the planet). Over the last two years, I've been reading up on various theories and practices of pedagogy so I can improve in the classroom. Perhaps the Ivies and their public equivalents should start offering a dual MArch (or MLA) and M.Ed. for folks interested in both teaching and in designing educational facilities. Hmm, maybe I can launch this program at Cal Poly (especially if we focus on sustainability education too).
mantaray - if you click barry's name, you'll see that there's a contact button that other archinect members can click to send an email to him. this contact form will very soon be added for all users, not just profile holders. allowing others to contact you will be an optional preference in your account settings. a little contact icon will be next to each person's name (or username) on their posts and comments, for those members that allow others to contact them.
Hey TC, let's take this discussion about teaching onto it's own thread, so we can find it later, and let TC revert to our normally scheduled digressions.
what is more important than how, i'd say. like any job the only way to get good at anything is to practice. i was speaking more about the qualifications side of thing. experience seems to be the most important. also the what. this is why famous and amazing architects are often invited to teach studios.
teaching design is indeed not easy. after 20 years in offices and schools (split about half and half) i feel fairly clear about how to teach a studio course and also how to design for my own projects. but i will admit it was not until recently that i started to really feel that way.
seems lately that academia and professional work are just different aspects of the same project, and that perspective too is new. it's kind of an interesting place to be. wish i could have got here sooner ;-)
after a few years of teaching at different levels, i found that i was less confident in my abilities the more i did it. to the point of crisis, really. as i got more busy at work and pulling myself away for teaching became more difficult, i realized that the joy i had gotten out of teaching in the first years had kind of dried up. i was pretty good at becoming the students' buddy, but not so good at getting them to do good work and achieve the sort of exponential learning curve that (especially introductory) studio requires.
Did you know the word pedagogy comes from the guy that used to pick the children up from home and walk them to school, the guy that I guess would pre-date the school bus driver. in other words, literally leading the students.
^ correction to above, I made up the part about being like a school bus driver. I looked it up, this person was a slave to a family in ancient Greece that took the children to their lessons and carried their equpiment (like a musical instrument.)
hey manta--just saw your post--you can definitely contact me, although i've totally lost track of which email address i used to set up my archinect account...i'd usually offer to email you instead...i'm going to see if this is still possible.
hmmm...not possible. let me see if i can think of something that doesn't require having to post my real name on this forum.
I'm OK. It's been a bit of a rough year. Still kicking, though.
It's gotten cold and dark and wet up here in the PNW seemingly overnight, so I'm hoping that I get a chance to spend some more time on Archinect again.
just realized i haven't been coming by here much lately to say hello.
Hi Emily!
I personally, have been waiting for the email feature. Once we get it back, people should expect emails from me re: guest editing the weekly EPs.
the weather has turned to "winter" (really fall anywhere else) which is great because without all the humid heat I have been able to convince my SO to start riding bike with me all over town for errands and fun.
Hello Emily from across the big body of land...we Call A-Merica...! Sorry to hear you have had a rough year. We always enjoy your delightful thoughts here.
I'm back, if anyone noticed. My Mac bit the dust Sunday night. Today Apple agreed that the problem was due to a recall issue (nvidia logic board) so it is being replaced for free in 5-7 days. In the meantime, my amazing husband bought me a new Mac laptop as he felt I was due for one (the old one is 3.5 years old). Thanks to Time Machine, my entire previous system just instantly installed on the new machine...except for Parallels and A-cad, sigh. My versions are too old. So...off to shop for a new cad system.
that's cool about the new machine donna and also very cool about the time machine.
acad on mac is horrible. i got a free academic version to try it out since we have a few macs we though might be used in office. and it really is the pits. we figured there would be some glitches but it was basically utterly useless. luckily there is bootcamp.
coolio tumbleweed. i grew up in prairie farming country where big water was something we only heard about so the idea of farming AND the ocean nearby sounds magically awesome. can totally see why you love it.
tumbles I am green with envy. Farming and ranching and cheesemaking: it's so immediate. Architecture is so slow and in so many ways so deeply unsatisfying. When I feed a chicken then get an egg out of the box it's an immediate need/result relationship. Who the hell actually needs a new kitchen or a fancy bus stop?
tumbles - awesome stuff... sucks about the startup costs - is there any way you could share space with some neighbors - to defray some of the costs? we have a few local commercial kitchens that people use to start specialty food companies before they can afford their own space - but I live in the city, so it's a bit easier.
I'm back! I suspect I will have to make a number of posts to catch up. But I felt it necessary to chime in to the debate regarding the teaching positions, etc.
A masters or PhD may be required for a teaching position because it speaks to the depth of knowledge and research undertaken by the candidate. But having those qualifications does not make someone a good teacher. One of the best lecturers I had in grad school was a recent MFA graduate himself. He later went on to pursue his PhD and I think is really the more important point good teachers should pursue the highest/terminal degrees in their fields.
Hi everyone... Donna, Barry, Orhan, Sarah, Rusty, Tumbles, Phillip, Will, Nam, toasteroven, Snook, Vado.... all, I've missed you. And in that same breath I must thank you for sharing your wedding stories. The lovely missus and I spent the nights leading up to the wedding reading your stories, laughing and anticipating our own story to tell. And what better way to lead into the story.
We had two weddings. The first legal, in a church intended to satisfy the courts, church etc and what we initially thought would be just our immediate families. The second - larger, outdoors with all our friends and family followed by cocktails, dinner and lots and lots of dancing.
Wedding highlights.
I was locked out of my hotel room the night before and didn't get in until 1:30am
It pissed down with rain and the wedding started 2 hours later than expected (I was cool and dry, celebrating with my groomspeople and a bottle of scotch)
one of the groomsmen's flight was delayed then cancelled and he made it in time for the second wedding... only because we were late in starting
I had a grooms-lady, a close friend to me and the missus
Every table of 20 had at least one doctor
My wife looked absolutely ravishing for both weddings
the Groom was a sobering mess crying through the vows and most of the speeches
congrats david... sounds like you had a great time... my wife and i were both blubbering idiots during our ceremony... as soon as she turned the corner and our eyes met, we both lost it... in the middle of reciting her vows she did a big "sniffle" (not really the right word, maybe snort would be better) which got all 200 people laughing... we also had two weddings, one at the court in front of the judge that she practiced in front of at the time on december 29th because we realized that we could save about $5000 in taxes if we were married, and then the 2nd six months later...
Hi Nam and snook and TUMBLES! I want some of that cheese! What an amazing opportunity, I'm so glad you are doing well.
And David... congratulations on your wedding(s). I'm soooo happy for you and the Mrs... and on the day of, it kind of doesn't matter how much goes wrong, does it? As long as you end up married, I guess, right? :o)
two weddings here too! one legal and boring and dry at city hall and the other with real wedding paraphernalia and such.
the city did give us a tree (sapling) to plant to celebrate our marriage with. it's still growing in the back yard of parent's in law 15 years later. i thought it was a nice gesture.
but more importantly CONGRATS david and wife! way beyond coolio.
Nam, it's a trend now to have photos taken of the bride in her dress, standing in water, mud, covered in paint, ect. Maybe some of the damage can be repaired, but most cannot. It does make for fun photos.
Congrats again, David. Nobody cried at my wedding, except the preacher. I giggled too much, and I think it made him nervous.
Sarah, I didn't know about this trend, but I think is just a good idea. Having all the fun now and don't have to worry later where to store that wedding dress. That too can make the choice for the dress a little cheaper considering it a disposable?
many, many congrats, david! thanks for sharing your wonderful photos!
will--i LOVE that sapling idea! so wish we could have gotten one, although i don't know where we would have put it in NYC...when i was small, my grandpa and i were eating cherries, and he explained how trees grow from seeds...so i planted a cherry pit in the front yard, and it grew into a little tree...*my* tree! years later, i went back to that town to see it, and they had torn everything up to build a concrete highrise and a parking lot. sniff.............i wish i could take my (future) children to pick cherries there someday...
Thread Central
Donna you drinking with your dad?
I just saw a picture of Derby pie in Parade magazine. I've never heard out if. Of course, I immediately thought of Steven, but Donna, since you're eating one, please elaborate.
sounds perfect donna
that was enlightening discussion about what it takes to teach in architecture. over the years i have gradually come to see the a phd is not enough; that a licence and phd is not enough; that a licence and phd and publications is not enough. i have no idea what IS enough but it seems to involve another 10 years of working in office and publishing articles ;-)
i also agree that after finishing phd the amount i did not know with just m.arch is in hindsight so crazy obvious. not sure that means a phd should be required for teaching but if teachers are supposed to have depth of knowledge it seems to be one way to be pretty sure they have it - just as a baseline....
PhD's are definitely a degree waaay beyond, but what about teaching skills? How do you verify that someone has the ability to impart not only knowledge but a mode of creative thinking to another person? I think I'm not a very good teacher, though I am a decent storyteller. I think we've had the experience of hearing someone talk who is obviously much, much smarter than we are, but that person has no way of distilling that knowledge into a form that other people can use.
snook, yes, Dad made my Old Fashioned, and Sarah Derby Pie is a brand name for a pecan pie made with chocolate. Derby Pie is trademarked, but people use it like Kleenex, apparently.
i have no idea what IS enough but it seems to involve another 10 years of working in office and publishing articles
I know I will get shit for this but that's never stopped me before. ;)
I don't think a master's degree, a doctorate's or a license (in whatever profession) is necessary to be a professor at a higher education institution such as a university.
I think the only thing necessary for anyone to be a professor or instruction at a higher education institution is having a widely-recognized opinion, based on direct or indirect supporting facts, on a subject with sufficient expertise and depth. Notice that I said recognized and not necessarily respected— that are plenty of good experts out there that challenge many fields acting solely as les efants terribles and provocateurs.
Of course, the only way to be recognized, as a genius, asshole or asshole-genius, is to be published over in a wide range of mediums; traditional (newspapers, magazines), academic (journals, books, textbooks) or new media (websites, blogs).
By focusing on the traditional rigid institution and rigor of academia, it's beginning to seem like we're often overlooking newer pedestrian innovation and methodology that happens at frantic and manic pace in the 21st-century.
@will - none of that stuff actually prepares you HOW to teach anything. it only gives you the "what."
maybe there needs to be some kind of professional exchange program between university profs and primary and secondary ed teachers - you guys will get classroom management techniques and some basic understanding of education theory so that you'll become better teachers, and they'll get access to advanced knowledge and cutting edge research that they can use as part of their lessons. win/win?
university profs are typically horrible teachers. I don't know why college is the only point in our education system where the teachers aren't actually required to be trained in education. a f-ing kindergarten teacher in my city's school district is required to have a masters degree in education - an advanced degree in education is required to teach a bunch f-ing 5 year olds. you guys have PhDs on how to conduct research, not how to teach.
I should say: I think our resident PhDs here are probably very, very good teachers, based on how well and generously you all explain things so well here on the 'nect.
Teaching design is different, though. Very challenging.
at the phd program at penn, we at least have a nominal amount of being taught to teach... we are required to TA for at least a year and (theoretically at least) the professor that we are teaching for is supposed to supervise our teaching to a certain degree... the last semester that i TAed the professor came to one of the discussion sections that are run by the TAs each week both to observe and help out... that was extremely helpful in getting feedback on my teaching...
My wife got more practical/pragmatic info about being an educator during her post-doc than during her PhD. So I have coach at home who has been trained in the myriad aspects of teaching in higher-ed, plus several mentors at work to fall back on. That said, the advice I got for my first day of teaching was to 'teach from authority' - whatever that's supposed to mean. So I've been relying on my own expertise in sustainability and blending the best of the techniques I witnessed as a student. That said, Kipnis holds a special influence in teaching me what NOT to EVER do as a teacher.
I also come from a family of educators (about half my cousins/aunts/uncles/grandparents are/were teachers) so maybe it runs in my genes. (the other half were all professionals of some sort)
For me, what matters most is giving a damn about my students (and giving the same about the planet). Over the last two years, I've been reading up on various theories and practices of pedagogy so I can improve in the classroom. Perhaps the Ivies and their public equivalents should start offering a dual MArch (or MLA) and M.Ed. for folks interested in both teaching and in designing educational facilities. Hmm, maybe I can launch this program at Cal Poly (especially if we focus on sustainability education too).
appeal to elinor:
can I email you please? have a quick question I'd like to ask.
(on a side note - how are we supposed to email each other anymore?!?! doesn't seem like you can email thru archinect any longer?)
mantaray - if you click barry's name, you'll see that there's a contact button that other archinect members can click to send an email to him. this contact form will very soon be added for all users, not just profile holders. allowing others to contact you will be an optional preference in your account settings. a little contact icon will be next to each person's name (or username) on their posts and comments, for those members that allow others to contact them.
Hey TC, let's take this discussion about teaching onto it's own thread, so we can find it later, and let TC revert to our normally scheduled digressions.
Here's the thread: archinect.com/forum/thread/27383714/what-does-it-take-to-teach-design
what is more important than how, i'd say. like any job the only way to get good at anything is to practice. i was speaking more about the qualifications side of thing. experience seems to be the most important. also the what. this is why famous and amazing architects are often invited to teach studios.
teaching design is indeed not easy. after 20 years in offices and schools (split about half and half) i feel fairly clear about how to teach a studio course and also how to design for my own projects. but i will admit it was not until recently that i started to really feel that way.
seems lately that academia and professional work are just different aspects of the same project, and that perspective too is new. it's kind of an interesting place to be. wish i could have got here sooner ;-)
after a few years of teaching at different levels, i found that i was less confident in my abilities the more i did it. to the point of crisis, really. as i got more busy at work and pulling myself away for teaching became more difficult, i realized that the joy i had gotten out of teaching in the first years had kind of dried up. i was pretty good at becoming the students' buddy, but not so good at getting them to do good work and achieve the sort of exponential learning curve that (especially introductory) studio requires.
donna is better at this than she's admitting.
Did you know the word pedagogy comes from the guy that used to pick the children up from home and walk them to school, the guy that I guess would pre-date the school bus driver. in other words, literally leading the students.
^ correction to above, I made up the part about being like a school bus driver. I looked it up, this person was a slave to a family in ancient Greece that took the children to their lessons and carried their equpiment (like a musical instrument.)
That said, Kipnis holds a special influence in teaching me what NOT to EVER do as a teacher.
yeah - I've heard stories about him during his Ohio State days...
hey manta--just saw your post--you can definitely contact me, although i've totally lost track of which email address i used to set up my archinect account...i'd usually offer to email you instead...i'm going to see if this is still possible.
hmmm...not possible. let me see if i can think of something that doesn't require having to post my real name on this forum.
ok, email me at elinor.architect@gmail.com
thanks, elinor! done.
It ended up being longer than I anticipated... I will def. owe you dinner for your help, thanks.
also, thanks Archinect big green head. I will appreciate the old email feature - glad you're re-instating!
Someday not too far from now I will feel be ready to put my "real" profile together... I hope. For now it's nice to stay anony-mouse.
Hi y'all. How's everybody doing?
I'm OK. It's been a bit of a rough year. Still kicking, though.
It's gotten cold and dark and wet up here in the PNW seemingly overnight, so I'm hoping that I get a chance to spend some more time on Archinect again.
I'm going to go get my snuggie now.
just realized i haven't been coming by here much lately to say hello.
Hi Emily!
I personally, have been waiting for the email feature. Once we get it back, people should expect emails from me re: guest editing the weekly EPs.
the weather has turned to "winter" (really fall anywhere else) which is great because without all the humid heat I have been able to convince my SO to start riding bike with me all over town for errands and fun.
is it normal for pecha kucha in other cities to only announce pecha kucha the same day?
Hello Emily from across the big body of land...we Call A-Merica...! Sorry to hear you have had a rough year. We always enjoy your delightful thoughts here.
I'm back, if anyone noticed. My Mac bit the dust Sunday night. Today Apple agreed that the problem was due to a recall issue (nvidia logic board) so it is being replaced for free in 5-7 days. In the meantime, my amazing husband bought me a new Mac laptop as he felt I was due for one (the old one is 3.5 years old). Thanks to Time Machine, my entire previous system just instantly installed on the new machine...except for Parallels and A-cad, sigh. My versions are too old. So...off to shop for a new cad system.
welcome back donna! I've heard complaints about Acad for Mac from my students, so stick with parallels.
that's cool about the new machine donna and also very cool about the time machine.
acad on mac is horrible. i got a free academic version to try it out since we have a few macs we though might be used in office. and it really is the pits. we figured there would be some glitches but it was basically utterly useless. luckily there is bootcamp.
Well color me jealous, ms weed. It is my a dream of mine to work on a ranch too.
Just found out I get to teach Spanish next semester!
coolio tumbleweed. i grew up in prairie farming country where big water was something we only heard about so the idea of farming AND the ocean nearby sounds magically awesome. can totally see why you love it.
tumbles I am green with envy. Farming and ranching and cheesemaking: it's so immediate. Architecture is so slow and in so many ways so deeply unsatisfying. When I feed a chicken then get an egg out of the box it's an immediate need/result relationship. Who the hell actually needs a new kitchen or a fancy bus stop?
Ugh. Bad, bad week here.
tumbles - awesome stuff... sucks about the startup costs - is there any way you could share space with some neighbors - to defray some of the costs? we have a few local commercial kitchens that people use to start specialty food companies before they can afford their own space - but I live in the city, so it's a bit easier.
morning all,
tumbles sounds like you have found a way to live the life you want and a lovely one at that. ranching, cheese and all.
any chance you are selling and shipping cheese yet?
Wow, Tumbles. That's insane, awesome, and so courageous of you. Good for you for saying Yes, and following those dreams.
Yes, please let us know. I want to buy one of those cheeses!
I'm back! I suspect I will have to make a number of posts to catch up. But I felt it necessary to chime in to the debate regarding the teaching positions, etc.
A masters or PhD may be required for a teaching position because it speaks to the depth of knowledge and research undertaken by the candidate. But having those qualifications does not make someone a good teacher. One of the best lecturers I had in grad school was a recent MFA graduate himself. He later went on to pursue his PhD and I think is really the more important point good teachers should pursue the highest/terminal degrees in their fields.
ps. Barry... I think I really want that job
Hi everyone... Donna, Barry, Orhan, Sarah, Rusty, Tumbles, Phillip, Will, Nam, toasteroven, Snook, Vado.... all, I've missed you. And in that same breath I must thank you for sharing your wedding stories. The lovely missus and I spent the nights leading up to the wedding reading your stories, laughing and anticipating our own story to tell. And what better way to lead into the story.
We had two weddings. The first legal, in a church intended to satisfy the courts, church etc and what we initially thought would be just our immediate families. The second - larger, outdoors with all our friends and family followed by cocktails, dinner and lots and lots of dancing.
Wedding highlights.
And if you've not seen these on facebook... here's are a sample of the photos
peace and love!
congrats david... sounds like you had a great time... my wife and i were both blubbering idiots during our ceremony... as soon as she turned the corner and our eyes met, we both lost it... in the middle of reciting her vows she did a big "sniffle" (not really the right word, maybe snort would be better) which got all 200 people laughing... we also had two weddings, one at the court in front of the judge that she practiced in front of at the time on december 29th because we realized that we could save about $5000 in taxes if we were married, and then the 2nd six months later...
Hi Nam and snook and TUMBLES! I want some of that cheese! What an amazing opportunity, I'm so glad you are doing well.
And David... congratulations on your wedding(s). I'm soooo happy for you and the Mrs... and on the day of, it kind of doesn't matter how much goes wrong, does it? As long as you end up married, I guess, right? :o)
two weddings here too! one legal and boring and dry at city hall and the other with real wedding paraphernalia and such.
the city did give us a tree (sapling) to plant to celebrate our marriage with. it's still growing in the back yard of parent's in law 15 years later. i thought it was a nice gesture.
but more importantly CONGRATS david and wife! way beyond coolio.
David, welcome back! hopefully you all had a wonderful honeymoon to match the wedding.
also what do you mean by "We woke up at 6am to trash the dress"
Don't people usually keep the dress as a memento?
morning all.
one last thing. that is one dapper wedding party
not married. likes cheese.
i get to have bourbon (oh, and dinner) with donna tonight! yay!
we'll toast david and sacha while we're at it. congrats, y'all!
congrats david!
Congrats David, the smiles and pics are gorgeous! I love the underwater ones as well. And what a stunning location! You live in paradise too.
Nam, it's a trend now to have photos taken of the bride in her dress, standing in water, mud, covered in paint, ect. Maybe some of the damage can be repaired, but most cannot. It does make for fun photos.
Congrats again, David. Nobody cried at my wedding, except the preacher. I giggled too much, and I think it made him nervous.
Sarah, I didn't know about this trend, but I think is just a good idea. Having all the fun now and don't have to worry later where to store that wedding dress. That too can make the choice for the dress a little cheaper considering it a disposable?
many, many congrats, david! thanks for sharing your wonderful photos!
will--i LOVE that sapling idea! so wish we could have gotten one, although i don't know where we would have put it in NYC...when i was small, my grandpa and i were eating cherries, and he explained how trees grow from seeds...so i planted a cherry pit in the front yard, and it grew into a little tree...*my* tree! years later, i went back to that town to see it, and they had torn everything up to build a concrete highrise and a parking lot. sniff.............i wish i could take my (future) children to pick cherries there someday...
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